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i was told that i have not been leading with my elbow and i should lead with my elbow when i throw. I have been leading with my elbow more but when I do some tendon or something near my elbow area moves the area feels fine im not sore or hurting or anything but an wondering if i am doing this right? am i leading with the elbow to much? maybe thinking about it to much? i think i should just let my arm fly do my footwork and not be so tense and just throw and lead the elbow but not try to lead it so much or something. any thoughts, ideas??? thanks.
-Dan
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I just bought a DVD called, "Ultimate Infield." The instructor in the video is Perry Hill who is the infield coach for the FLorida Marlins. His techniques are simple and make so much sense. I have seen my son's mechanics and footwork improve 100%. They no longer have a website, but a company called "Baseball Pros" carries the DVD. I hope this helps.

baseball pros website
Last edited by bballdad17
TR is right.

The best way to get the best instruction is ONE ON ONE with a trusted instructor that has been there and done that.

Stay away from any websites saying they have all the answers to throwing mechanics and throwing hard. There is no way you will ever get anywhere near the best trainer over a keyboard and monitor!

Matter of fact, it's a prescrition to a waste time and money when you could of spent it on a reputable pitching instructor who also was a baseball pitcher himself, not some electrical engineer nut job like one site out there that profeses to have all the answers yet has no track record of helping and of it's customers to any level of major leaque success!!
Last edited by Rufus
Baseball is a high elbow sport.
One of the best books I have read is "Everything You Need to Know About Pitching" by Louisville Slugger. My sons Chiropractor has a small part of a chapter in "The Pitchers Edge" by Tom House & Nolan Ryan. He advocates keeping the elbows high but there is more to it than that. My son was getting some shoulder tension because he was dropping his front elbow during long toss.
One thing you can do is pwt a broom stick across the top of your shoulders and alighn both elbows with the broom stick with your hands straight up in the air like goal posts. Keep them up and go through your pitching motion. This will be awkward but it will give you an idea of how you should keep the elbows up.
Look, throwing is like hitting in many aspects. There are certain things that are definites ie Keep your eyes on the ball or get in the power posistion when throwing. But some kids have a natural arm slot that may be different than what is the general idea of how a kid should throw. If you change your arm slot and you feel pain (stop). Everyone is not meant to throw with the same mechanics. Some kids are comfortable throwing straight over the top. Some are comfortable throwing 3/4 etc. Some can throw from multiple arm slots. If you work on a different arm slot and it just feels uncomfortable thats one thing. But if you are feeling pain (stop). Forget that arm slot it is not meant for your body.
Dan,

Ulnar nerve pain is most certainly NOT normal.

It means that you have a mechanical problem that is placing extra strain on your elbow.

One thing to check is the angle of your pitching arm side elbow, and the position of your pitching arm side forearm, at the moment that your shoulders start to turn. I'd be willing to bet that you are turning your shoulders before your pitching arm side forearm is vertical. Your elbow might also be bent more than 90 degrees at the moment that your shoulders start to turn (so that the ball passes closer to your head). Mark Prior does this and it is one of the causes of his elbow problems.

One thing that you might want to work on is pronating your wrist as you release the ball (turning your wrist counter-clockwise so that your palm faces the ground). This will take some of the load off of your elbow.
wow thank you chris. i havent checked the board in days. funny thing is i think im doing something right but i get a different opinion from some one else....

heres what iv e made out of it, yes ulnar pain is not normal. and that i THOUGHT i was throwing right but im having a hard time breaking old habits. when im in power position and load back i move my head to much when i begin my throw and i pull to far down with my left arm (im a righty) thus causing my arm to go up and basically create a windmill throw..... so i have some drills on keeping my head much more still and throwing while leading the elbow and not pulling to hard down on my left arm


and your right my shoulder was opening up too.
You say you get to the power position. Do you follow the common advice to show the ball to Center Field? If so, that may be the cause of your problem. You might want to try just showing the ball to 3B (palm facing away from your body).

At the power position, you might also want to have your elbow bent just 45 degrees (leaning back toward CF) rather than 90 degrees (vertical).

There's nothing necessarily wrong with a windmill throw (aka throwing over the top) as long as your arm goes up because your shoulders are tilted. In fact, that's how you throw a 12-6 curveball. However, if your elbow goes above the level of your shoulders, then that's a bad thing.
quote:
Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear--- get real pal--there others out there who may know something and have something to offer--- at least they come without attitude--


I don't care that you don't like me TR. But quit giving bad advice.

If you don't think the elbows go behind the back then your confirming how much of an idiot you are.
While I agree that you don't want your elbows to go too far behind your shoulders (basically your back) or above your shoulders, I don't think that's the problem here.

If he was doing this to too large of a degree, it would manifest itself as shoulder pain, not Ulnar nerve pain.

Ulnar nerve pain means you are putting too much load on the elbow.
Linear

read what I said-- I am telling you there are others out there who know things-- just because your have a guru to follow does not make you correct all the time--is it bad advice because it doesnt agree with your "dogma"?

Like you or not like you has nothing to do with anything--If I get upset about cyperspace people then I am worse than you-- you area cyberspace sham and I will repeat--join the real world pal--you are missing a lot--- nobody has an inkling as to what or what you do not know about anything.

Bottom line for me --I will stay with the real world people who can teach and people see the results on a field
You say the opposite of me no matter what I say.

I could care less. Your an old, over the hill, know nothing groupie.

Everyone knows it........except you.

I'm asking for you to shut up and quit giving bad advice to people.

99% of all mlb pitchers will have their elbows go behind their back. And, not just behind their back, but almost as far behind their back as they will go.

It's a fact.

Then again, facts have never stood in the way of an old, over the hill, know nothing opinion.
Last edited by Linear
quote:
Originally posted by Rufus:
Hi Linear,

Are you one of those followers that believes that this scapula loading action is the way to throw a baseball?

If so, then I can tell you that you are following the road to a dangerous injury to your throwing elbow!


And so are 99% of all mlb players......not just the pitchers.

If you don't want to take the risk, don't. Be an accountant or something.

If you want to have a chance at being the best you can be, then you better learn what the good ones do.

99% of all of them scap load and the elbow goes behind the back.

Fact.
Linear,

No Clue....Ah? You better know what your talking about!


The only way to achieve this Pinching action of which has been termed by a so called pitching Guru wannabe as Scapular Loading, is for pitchers to reverse rotate from an imaginary line that we can draw through the tips of both shoulders beyond second base thus keeping the palm of their pitching hand facing downward, and their pitching forearm below their pitching upper arm, allowing their pitching elbow to move behind their acromial line, such that their pitching arm points toward the opposite mid-infielder.

While this reverse horizontal centripetal force keeps their pitching upper arm in this position, pitchers then would have to powerfully pull their glove side upper arm backward until their glove elbow also moves behind their acromial line to nearly touch their pitching elbow...Yikes!

Now because their pitching upper arm is behind their acromial line,....that is, the imaginary line that we can draw through the tips of both shoulders, this position places considerable stress on the attachment of the Subscapularis muscle and the posterior shoulder capsule.

Because their pitching upper arm is at shoulder height and their pitching forearm is below shoulder height, with the pitching palm facing downward, pitchers then would have to outwardly rotate the Humerus bone of the upper arm to raise their pitching forearm above shoulder height.

Now because their pitching upper arm is behind their acromial line, the outward rotation of the Humerus bone of the pitching upper arm pinches the posterior capsule and Labrum. This action,...termed "Scapular Loading" will destroy the posterior shoulder and eventualy rupture the Ulnar Collateral Ligament over time!

AND,....because pitchers have to outwardly rotate the Humerus bone of the upper arm to raise their pitching forearm above shoulder height, the outward rotation of their pitching upper arm generates backward centripetal force with their pitching forearm, which they have to decelerate to a stop,.. BEFORE, they can start their pitching forearm forward.....Yikes again!!!!

This Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce, unnecessarily stresses the front of their pitching shoulder and the inside of their pitching elbow!!!

Because during this Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce, pitchers start to move their body forward, they then use their pitching upper arm to pull their pitching forearm in the same direction. Now with their pitching elbow moving forward while their pitching forearm, hand and baseball moves backward, they greatly increase the injurious strength of the Reverse Pitching forearm Rebounce.

This is how pitchers snap their Ulnar Collateral Ligament and, even, break the Humerus bone of their pitching upper arm.!

Any pitcher that forces this ""Scapular loading"" action is on a dangerous road to ruin of an Ulnar Collateral Ligament rupture, medial epicondyle avulsion, fracture and displacement of the Ulnar Nerve Groove Fascial tear, Humerus bone fracture and the pain that they will cause.

Scapular loading is dangerous. Pitchers at the highest level of baseball pitching DO NOT force the loading or pinching of the shoulder blades. For there is no conscious effort to do so.

"Scapular Loading" is a bad idea from those who do not know what they are doing....As in clueless! Give them the respect that they deserve, none.

Scapular Loading is nothing more then a pop term to establish a no name by a marketing ploy!
Last edited by Rufus
Without "linear: and his abuse I could not sleep at night--I am glad that I give him an outlet that his "shrink'says he needs

It is truly a shame that he doesnt know as much as he thinks he does--

But I do feel very good in knowing that I am not the only one on here that does not know as miuch as he does--none of us does except perhaps Bluedog but then they both have the same "guru".

Rufus

I am with you--
Last edited by TRhit
Folks, you'll have to excuse Linear his self-employed health insurance plan apparently just jacked up the price of his perscriptions, because he has quit taking them cold turkey.

Either that or Mrs. Linear has him sleeping on the couch.......if you follow me! Eek

Geez Richard, what's gotten into you, has business been that slow?
"...Organizations should be like tall trees that supply support and foundation on one side, while the kids are the fruit and leaves that benefit from that support and make the continued success of the tree posible...."

Thanks - this quote just helped me break a writer's block on the screenplay I'm fiddling with this afternoon.
Rufus,

Just a quick question for you.

Could you post a video clip of pitcher who demonstrates the technique you support who throws harder than 85 MPH??

Could you please provide the name of a MLB pitcher who you would have 12U pitcher emulate or whose mechanics come closest to your pitching scientist's ideas.

It is amazing that you espouse Mike Marshall, a man who said MLB has no clue(meaning his own credentials as a player mean nothing), and credits his knowledge of pitching to his education not his Major League experience and you discard another man whose knowledge and understanding of the throw/swing are also from intense study of science and high-speed video. It is one man's science vs. another.

Rufus, I suggest that you study up on both sides of the debate.

JD
JDEL,

It is very interesting that you bring up credentials.

I would not try to compare an electrical engineer with only a bachelor's degree and no background what so ever in baseball as either a player or a coach on any level to which one would want to compare credibility to that of a Cy-Young award winning pitcher with a doctors degree in Physiology.

That's like comparing a plumber with a rocket scientist!
Last edited by Rufus
Rufus


So, you're a Marshall guy. The ultimate quack.

I have a library of clips of mlb players. I don't have one clip of a pitcher whose elbows don't go behind his back.

I would post some examples but it would be every clip I have.....probably 100+.

How about you posting 1.....just one...clip of a mlb pitcher whose elbows don't go behind his back.

As far as avoiding injury is concerned I've got the ultimate, safest, completely fool proof way to avoid injury....................don't play.

If your goal is to avoid injury, just don't play. You'll reach your goal.

But, if your goal is to play at the highest level, you better scap load.

I agree with Jdel. When you can post 1 clip of a guy doing what Marshall suggests, that throws over 85mph, I'll listen.

Until then........
Linear,

I am a big fan of Dr. Marshall's ideas. However, in this case I tend to agree with you.

Every major leaguer that I have looked at does move their elbows behind the Acromial Plane to one degree or another and not every one injures themselves.

That's a fact.

The thing that seems to make the difference is whether you move the elbows both behind the Acromial Plane and above the shoulders.

Guys who "Scap Load" with their elbows low seem to have few shoulder problems (e.g Ryan, Seaver, and Clemens). Guys who "Scap Load" with their elbows high (e.g. at or above their shoulders) seem to have relatively more shoulder problems (e.g. Drysdale, Madritsch, and others).

Coach Chris
Linear, Its crystal clear, rufus is a dufus! Hes another blowhard who simply doesnt know what he is talking about. His discription of scap loading is wrong as is Chris's, at least his opinion of the level of the shoulders as it relates to possible injury, I guess it could have a little merit but the point is moot because the description is wrong. If the correct procedure/timing is not known how can it be taught or understood? Thus making his point moot or nonplausible Fact is proper scap loading technique/time wise is a must to protect the entire shoulder. So many of these so called gurus are just plain lost. There opinion of scap loading is jamming the elbows behind the acromial line or a "hyperflexion" action which is not good. They dont know how/when its supposed to be done therefore they automatically think its wrong. Scapular dynamics just may be the main indicator for potential injuries to the shoulder. Scapular dynamics are always affected when a player has an injury. The real question is what caused the injury in the first place. In many cases it is a disfunction or non fucntion of proper scapular dynamics. Which only makes sense due to the fact that all cuff tendons originate from the fossa of the scapula. The scapula is the foundation for providing a stable base for the upper to work off of.

Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation. Proper scap loading has nothing to do with rotation of the humerus either. A person can put his arms up elbows shoulder level with his palms facing any direction he wants. As well as rotating the humerus wherever/howecver he can and load the scapula. The elevation of the arm should be an assistant to proper scap loading.Everything that preceeds the actual loading of the scapula is totally independent of the scapula loading in itself, to as point. Proper scapula dynamics serve to provide a stable base as well as funnel the energy to the throwing arm instead of wasting it elsewhere. Pitching is a series of loadings/unloadings one loading facilitates another and so on throughout the chain. For you Marshallites to get it even halfway right you would have to think load the scap extemely late in regards to where the delivery is in a certain time and space. Most successful pitchers do not get the arm up nearly as quick as Marshall likes to see his pitchers. Which is one reason why they will never amount to much in my opinion.
"Fact is proper scap loading technique/time wise is a must to protect the entire shoulder."

Why exactly is this? Why don't you think the body can take care of this itself?


"There opinion of scap loading is jamming the elbows behind the acromial line or a "hyperflexion" action which is not good. They dont know how/when its supposed to be done therefore they automatically think its wrong."

So exactly what is it and when should it be done? What purpose does it solve?


"Scapular dynamics are always affected when a player has an injury."

I assume you are talking about shoulder injuries. Of course, this is a given since the scapula is the key structure when it comes to the shoulder joint.


"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation."

So then how do you explain what Nolan Ryan is doing in frame 27.1 (among others) of this document...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

His elbows are down in this and other photos.


"Proper scap loading has nothing to do with rotation of the humerus either."

How could it not, given that the purpose of the muscles that attach to the scapula is to hold the proximal head of humerus in the socket and articulate the humerus (e.g. upper arm).


"Proper scapula dynamics serve to provide a stable base as well as funnel the energy to the throwing arm instead of wasting it elsewhere."

I agree, but I'm not convinced that this is something that the body can't take care of naturally.


"Most successful pitchers do not get the arm up nearly as quick as Marshall likes to see his pitchers. Which is one reason why they will never amount to much in my opinion."

But some like Freddy Garcia do. So you have a low opinion of him?
Avery and Carpenter are completely different.

One loads the scap, the other didn't.

You may know alot. You just don't know the right stuff.

And, as I told you before, I won't educate you. One who makes ridiculous conclusions without the facts is usually not "educatable" if that is a word.

Too much religion. Not enough objectivity.
Last edited by Linear
I have done a breakdown of Avery's motion and in frames 7.1 and 8.1 (among others) he is doing something that sure as heck looks like scap loading...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveAvery.pdf

However, his pitching arm side elbow is above his shoulder while he is doing this, which I believe contributes to his problems.

Chris Carpenter does something very similar in frame 22.2, but both of his elbows are below his shoulders...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_ChrisCarpenter.pdf
"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation.....The elevation of the arm should be an assistant to proper scap loading."

So then you're saying that, since Nolan Ryan has his elbows below his shoulders in frame 27.1, he's not scap loading?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

Is the same thing true for Roger Clemens in frames 57.1 and 57.2...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_RogerClemens.pdf
You're a funny guy...

No. I've read the research behind the physiology of the shoulder and studied the motions and mechanics of both successful and unsuccessful professionals.

Let me ask again.

Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html

I assume that PP was referring to Carpenter as doing it (and presumably correctly), but I want to be certain.
This scap stuff is well past the point of being productive and informative. Can we try another throwing mechanics topic?

What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school.

Now, let's all play nice on this one.
"What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school."

Keep in mind that I believe that the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder are the primary source of power (due to the size of the muscles involved).

Therefore, I believe that driving off of the rubber with the pitching arm side leg it can be helpful if it facilitates the continued rotation of the hips. Conversely, leaving the pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber can limit the amount that the hips can rotate and thus power.

One caveat is that this effect depends on the hips being in a position to continue to rotate.

Of course, all of this also has to be timed properly.
Maddux certainly doesn't bring the pitching arm side leg forward. Instead, he leaves it behind on the rubber.

However, the way he pitches isn't the only way to pitch.

He has to leave his pitching arm side leg behind for balance purposes because he strides into a sharply bent glove-side knee. If he didn't stride into such a bent glove-side knee, he would be able to get more on top of his glove-side knee and would be able to get his pitching arm side knee farther off the rubber. The bonus would be that he would raise his release point.
His right foot IS well ahead of the rubber at the release point.

However, he still drags his toe as if he is desperately trying to to keep his toe on his rubber. If he didn't try to drag his toe, and instead just let his leg and his hips come around like they want to, he might be able to reach a higher velocity.

Granted, this is all sheer speculation. Doing what I say above may completely throw off his balance.

However, I'm not convinced that any pitcher has achieved perfection.
Don't get me wrong. He does some things great.

For example, notice how his hips reverse-rotate, which lets him gets his hips around powerfully, but his shoulders stay pretty much in line with the target, which lets him throw from a more vertical arm slot. This also allows him to generate more power even though his hips end up locking after his glove side foot lands. He also lands very soft with his glove side foot.

I do have a problem with the length of his stride. Notice how his hips absolutely stop turning 2 frames after his glove-side foot plants. This is because his knee is bent 90 degrees. It also lowers his release point.

My question isn't that this doesn't work for him. It obviously does.

The question is whether it would work for everyone.
While my first inclination is to ask you how many Cy Young awards your favorite pitching guru has won, let me instead make it clear that I'm as skeptical as the next guy. That's why I've done all of my own research to validate what Dr. Marshall says.

I've also had my share of exposure to professional athletes, so the awe factor has worn off.

Andy Van Slyke was an investor in the last startup I joined. I talked to Dave Butz (of the Redskins) about investing in the same startup. I regularly see Andy Benes with his kids at the park and the mall (saw him last weekend, in fact). A friend from high school (Henry Jones) played Safety for the Bills during the 90s.

I have come to learn that, if you get past their amazing physical abilities, they aren't gods who should be followed blindly.
We love talking heroes when we get into ths stuff. I have watched that clip about 100 times and I can see that Maddux had some incredible live arm action, thats evident in his 92-95 in the day. But i've seen many pitchers and I just don't see hip rotation there. That doesn't mean much to Maddux because he's proven. But I can get a lot more out of a pitcher when teaching more hip rotation.
No but I'm sure you are. We don't see that kind of talent often, like in a maddux. In fact if I could teach 100,000 kids, 99,999 would not have what he has. So why do we always compare to guys that are the best, when we are trying to teach a mediocre kid how to compete on a higher level. I don't see rotation as it is taught, and I'll stand by that. I will not insist as I for one, know that I'm not an expert.
Coach Chris,

Enjoyed the 25 pages or so of pitching analysis on the great Nolan Ryan.

The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs.
That is the lower-body power base with the strongest muscles providing a foundation to rotate upper body in front of a powerful wall of resistence creating bull-whip pop with arm action coming forward behind everything I just described taking place beforehand. Great!

Thanks Coach for Analysis,

Shepster
Last edited by Shepster
To see the hip rotation, open up the QuickTime player and then open this URL...

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/gm1.mpg

One the QuickTime player opens, click on Window > Movie Info in the main menu. That will let you see the timestamps of the file listed under "Current Time".

At 1:21 his hips are square to Home Plate.

At 2:24 he has maximally reverse-rotated his hips (now square to 3B).

At 3:10 he has opened up his hips so that they are now square to Home Plate again.

He physically can't do this without rotating his hips.

Although it doesn't apply to this clip, the easiest way to track someone's hip rotation is to look at the position of their belt buckle in a picture. If present, you can also track the differential between the rotation of their hips and shoulders by watching the buttons down the front of their shirt curve.
"The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs."

The shoulders starting to rotate before the glove-side foot is planted is a critical timing flaw. Of course, you don't see it much in major leaguers because a guy can't throw straight or hard if he does this. Guys who are prone to this flaw get shaken out early in the process.

Glad you found it helpful.
Yes Shep. I have a kid that I instruct that is CFCA's #2. He doesn't quite compare to Jacob. Somebody had a gun on him in late october and he was 89-91 and hit 93 5 or 6 times. Thats what I was told by the high school coach. I actually turned down an assistants position there this year. I like my free time, and I get to go around and watch all the kids that I train.
I don't think I see an inconsistency.

3:09 - Heel of glove-side foot plants. Toe about an inch off the ground. Back is arching relative to previous frame but shoulders not yet turning significantly.

3:10 - Glove-side foot 90% planted. Toe is 1/2 inch off ground (but spikes are planted). Shoulders are just starting to turn (maybe 10 degrees).

3:11 - Glove-side foot fully planted. Shoulders are accelerating (maybe 45 degrees). Look at his pecs pop out of the front of his shirt.
You type too fast for me. Yes I've seen Max S. and he is the real deal. His team B.M. is only a 3a school, but they are always as good as any 6a here. They had a catcher a couple years ago that I saw named Drew B. then went to ucf and I believe he was drafted last summer. Great arm and makeup. I think Max is even better than he was at this stage.
To a degree it depends on what you define as "planted". Perhaps stable is a better term. The key point is that the foot can't twist.

I disagree how much his shoulders turn at foot plant. If you define foot plant as flat on the ground (versus stable), then I would say that his shoulders have turned 90 degrees at that point.

However, his total shoulder rotation is something like 145 degrees (10+90+45).
"Shep, I was refering to the above statement which is 100% incorrect. It is not a timing flaw, as Maddux has great timing"

I'm not saying that Maddux suffers from this flaw. He obviously doesn't. Instead, he's pretty much perfect.

Guys who have this flaw usually have it a ton. Their shoulders start turning while their glove-side foot is several inches off the ground.


"by the time his foot is planted, he has nearly completed his shoulder rotation, much like all the other great pitchers."

What great pitchers are you talking about? This isn't true for Nolan Ryan (see frames 28.2 and 29.1)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

His shoulders only start to turn after his glove side foot plants (which creates a huge differential between the rotation of his hips and shoulders and helps to explain his velocity).

Neither did Seaver (see frame 24.1)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_TomSeaver.pdf

...nor did Koufax (see frame 15.5)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SandyKoufax.pdf
"Here is Koufax in a "real" film."

There's no question that Koufax's timing is different in this clip, although I would disagree that his shoulders are 95% turned at foot plant. By my estimate, Koufax's shoulder rotation is nearly 180 degrees, and at foot plant his shoulders are turned maybe 75 degrees.

I think part of the difference may be due to the difference in the pitch. In my frame, Koufax has a fastball grip. In your clip, he is throwing a curveball (which hits the outside corner for a strike).
Was all the way back to page 3>wow

Okay, allow me to clarify what I mean by power V without confusing too many out there across our great land.

Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup.
In this case, Nolan Ryan's full-windup:
Stillframes>6.1,7.1,7.2,7.3,8.1,9.2,10.1,11.2,11.3,13.3 and 13.3 demonstrate power V the best in Tim O'Leary's 25 page of Nolan Ryan analysis.
Just look at the frames I've listed above and you can see the Vs-LOL but seriously

That my associates/websters is the real power source.

The interrelated work of all those strong muscles working together in the< power V.

RS
I've been called worse...

"Power V is the relationship between the upper and lower body while rotation occurs in windup."

I assume that you are talking about the V that is made by the stripe going up the side of Ryan's pants and most of his shirt.

If so, I'm not sure that that's something that I would key on.

In my opinion, the key is to keep the hips closed as long as possible. This will maximize the force that the torso will be able to exert on the shoulders.

I don't think how you do it is as important. Freddy Garcia swings his leg out in a similar way...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_FreddyGarcia.pdf

Steve Carlton does it somewhat differently...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveCarlton.pdf

The V is still there, but the knee is bent rather than extended.

However, it accomplishes the same thing.
linear

The Shepster knows exactly what your talking about when refering to the center.

Took a long time to learn it, but I did finally start coming around. I too experienced how effortless and freely the point of release out front can feel and how your body can look totally in control, if rotation is done correctly. The ball just seems to explode out of hand upon release. This is because your not throwing with all upperbody but have combination of both lower and upper. The lower being the dominate catalyst that leads out first.

Shep's Humble Input
Last edited by Shepster
"Start exploring the center."

Just to be clear, when you say this are you talking about the same "center" that boxers and people in the martial arts talk about? Do you have any links to articles that talk about this (they are kind of hard to find and I haven't found the right query string yet)?

If it's what I think you're talking about, then I do agree that it's a valuable concept. For one thing, it explains why my drives have topped out at 250. I'm too "arm"-y.
Linear (and all),

Serious question here.

Again, assuming that we are talking about the same thing when it comes to the term "center", what do you think about using martial arts (e.g. Tae Kwon Do and Karate), boxing, golf, and even hitting to teach kids how to do things from the center? It seems that, when done right, the key to all of those actions is starting motion from the center. In the case of Tae Kwon Do, that often means starting with a hip flip.

Just so you can gloat, let me say that I asked this question of Dr. Marshall and received a very unsatisfactory non-answer. I think there can be more cross-transfer between skills than he does.
Coach Chris,

FWIW, I’m a big believer in the martial arts as a training method. Years ago we had a Karate Instructor work with our entire team. He didn’t know anything about baseball and we knew nothing about Karate. He showed the coaching staff the many exercises and movements he could use and we picked out the stuff that directly worked similar to baseball movements and actions. Some here, would be glad to know, there are many ROTATIONAL type movements and other baseball movements involved in Karate.

Anyway, he worked with our team during the off season twice each week. The improvement in areas such as balance, flexability, focus, quickness, etc. were amazing. Perhaps the #1 most important thing, was that for the 3 years we did this, we never lost a pitcher due to arm injury and we never lost a player due to a non contact injury. This could have been somewhat lucky, but I was sold and would recommend Karate training to others.

One real neat thing he taught our players was how to do pushups laying flat on the ground with hands extended high above head using finger tips to pushup. When he first showed us this, we said it looks dangerous to the throwing arms. It also looked impossible to everyone who watched him do it. He assured us that it was all done through the stomach and mid body rather than the arms and fingers. Before long every player and most of our coaches could do it. (Not I) We would do these pushups in the outfield as we stretched, believe me when I say… the opponents did a double take and I think it even had some kind of psychological affect on them.
Thanks PG for excellent post which confirms many others opinions as well!

The rotational confirmation and mid-section endorsement had to make Linear's day Smile

The training of martial arts movements in combination with stretching and plyometrics are all components of advanced athletes in their training programs.

Good to see pro analysis,

Shep chat
I didn't need confirmation.

But would someone tell swingbuster it is impossible for young guys to properly load their center from which they can PROPERLY rotate, while they are army in their swings.

Barry can do it. Gary can do it. 99 out of 100 high school and below will fail at it.

He claims success at it. All he has done is give them a band aid. He's thrown them a life raft........from which they will sink when they get older............Mine are learning to swim and will survive the full length of their genetic potential.

Teach the center. Learn it well. Then add on. In that order.

Teach the add on first and they'll never rotate properly.
Last edited by Linear
PG,

It is very interesting that you mention your use of elements of Karate in your program.

I trained and competed for many years - Shotokan Karate. Without a doubt - it got me in the best shape (mentally and physically) of my life - and helped me greatly in football, boxing and baseball.

Just two thoughts on this:

1) Word of caution to any aspiring baseball players. In most cases Karate instruction/competition is comprised of two primary elements - Kata (Form) and Kumite (Fighting).

If you train/compete in Karate - be careful about the Kumite. Your fingers take a beating - and although broken fingers wont affect you much in football - in baseball it can affect you alot.

2) Nowadays - given that we have so many younger players training year round - I think it would be very demanding and difficult to participate fully in any Karate program if you are also doing your schoolwork and playing/training baseball all the time.

Interesting subject IMO - that I havent seen much of on the HSBBWEB in the past.

boxing
Last edited by itsinthegame
Would also like to agree with ITS on earlier post about the martial arts. Baseball players don't need to necessarily break boards and bricks but need to focus on movement or stretching without poundage to hands which can hinder prospects growth and development.

Lords of London insure some athletes hands, if that tells you anything.

Sincerely,

Shep
quote:
I've been seeing a lot of you gies saying not to let your elbow above shoulder level and not to have the ball face cener field when in the power position. That is what I have been taught be every coach i've had since I started pitching. What are the risks if I continue to pitch with those mechanics?


Elbow above shoulder = Rotator cuff problems.

Showing Ball to CF = UCL problems.
It depends at what moment you are talking about.

In general, I think the elbows should be at the levels of the shoulders. Not above or below.

However, what's interesting is that if you look at pictures of Nolan Ryan (e.g. frame 27.1) you will see that his elbows drop below his shoulders...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

His elbows then come back up to the level of his shoulders as his shoulders start to turn.
quote:
Your elbows should be at atleast a 90% angle from the shoulder. My son's doctor says baseball is a high elbow sport. He evaluated pitchers for MLB teams. He showed us that even dropping the front elbow puts stress on the opposite shoulder.


They should generally be 90 degrees. No more, no less.

Less than 90 degrees can be mechanically inefficient by shortening the lever arm. More than 90 degrees puts strain on the rotator cuff.

I'd love to know more about his theory as to why dropping the front elbow causes problems with the opposite shoulder. I'm skeptical, but still interested.
I think the confusion here is we are taking elbow and your pictures show shoulders in the last 2 examples wrap too far off plane. You look at Nolan and his elbows are up and his shoulders are on plane. You have to be carefull that you do npt lift your shoulders too high and wrap them too far back. I call it looking like a scarecrow or goal posts. Our drill uses a broom stick to get a pitcher used to the feeling of keeping the elbows up.
If you drop the so called sight elbow there is stress generated across the shoulder and can cause added stress on the thowing shoulder and some pain. It was demonstrated to us with diagrams of the body in the doctors office.
My son was dropping his front elbow in LOng Toss and he stopped and the pain stopped.
quote:
You've got to be kidding. Look at that picture again.


Now I understand the root of out disagreements...

His shoulders are clearly tilted about 30 degree off of the horizontal. If you draw a line through the socket of one shoulder through the socket of the other shoulder, you will end up with a line that passes through (but possibly slightly below) his pitching arm side elbow.

His glove-side elbow is significantly below this line.
quote:
Did you ever check to see how many operations that tattoo has had?


As have others who do this, Madritsch has had multiple surgeries to deal with problems with both his rotator cuff and labrum.

I have seen enough guys who have this flaw and have needed shoulder surgery (rotator cuff and/or labrum) that I have come to believe that it's not a coincidence.

If you want other examples of Madritsch taking his elbow above his shoulder, see frames 11.1, 11.2, 12.1, 12.2, 12.3, and 19.1.
quote:
If you tell me that the elbow is below the shoulders, I will have the guys in the white coats come and strap you down.


Obviously, the pitching arm side elbow in the first picture of Maddux is higher off the ground than is the pitching arm side shoulder.

However, since his shoulders are tilted something like 45 degrees, his pitching arm side elbow is at the level of a line drawn through the sockets of the shoulders. This enables him to achieve a near-vertical forearm at the release point while protecting his shoulder.

This is a subtle but critical difference when it comes to injury prevention.

The clip of Jim Palmer shows that he did something slightly different. In frame 3:03 of 3:27, you can see that Palmer's pitching arm side elbow is above the level of his shoulders. I would argue that this is why Palmer had recurrent shoulder problems during his career (and Maddux did not).


Is this the elbow being higher than the shoulder you're referring to?

It's very hard to interpret the height of the elbow with reference to the shoulders when using one dimensional photo's of a skewed body...you need at least two views of the same throw to be more accurate. The amount of backward bend, bowing, twisting and tilting define the shoulder plane orientation. You would need a camera placed directly on the end of the axis that passes through the shoulders, that way you would know more accurately whether the upper arm (including the elbow) is or is not in the shoulder plane.

This top photo is not conclusive.

This next photo indicates to me that the elbow is slightly lower than the shoulders


This photo indicates to me the elbow is in line with the shoulders
Last edited by cap_n
quote:
Is this the elbow being higher than the shoulder you're referring to?


Yes. This and the previous frame show the elbow above the line of the shoulders.

Admittedly, it just there for a moment (e.g. 2 frames), but the research I have done indicates that this may be enough to cause problems.

Also, and contrary to what Linear says, all of the greats do not do this.
Here is a link to the video on my web site...

- Marshall Wind-Up Set Position

When viewing this, keep in mind several things...

1. I start off from a position that Dr. Mike Marshall calls the Wind-Up Set position.

2. The things to pay attention to are the long arm swing and how early I turn over my pitching arm and palm. Also note how I finish square and ready to field the ball.

3. My arm action as I accelerate isn't as Dr. Marshall would like it. I'll post a revised clip as soon as I get the chance.

4. This was taken on a cold, wet day on January 1, so the ground was wet and the footing sucked. I was also tight, so my differential between my hips and shoulders sucks.
Obviously you cant be serious?

I have seen a serious pitching instructor here in San Diego and I must tell everyone out there he was a blessing to me and my family.

I'd recommend expanding your mind and your can learn a thing or too from all the Guru's. Please do not set your sight on just one specific person or GURU. You can learn many things from all of them.

Linear , I believe I am with you on this one.
Chris,

I am confused by your video. Has Mike Marshall viewed it? If so, does he like having his name attached to that video?

Does he really want the ball taken out of the glove that early. What is the purpose of the Wind-up/set position.

You actually don't finish square, in fact, your off balance and jump into fielding position in the video. Of course, this probably has more to do with athleticism (or lack there of) rather than technique.

It does seem kind of odd that the person in that video is saying Jim Palmer would have done even better with their mechanics.

Guess you never claimed you could throw a baseball.

I'm not necessarily saying you don't know what your talking about, but I would suggest a better example on video.
After viewing Chris's video, I dunno, 20-25 times (I can't help it...it's like watching a train wreck), I am sure all MLB pitching coaches are taking notes so they can retrain all their pitchers once spring training begins.

Seriously, CoachChris, pay the fee to take your 6 & 10 year-olds to a known pitching instructor. The arm you save, may be your son's.
Last edited by hit&run
Coach chris I respect anyone who takes the time to coach kids and I am not trying to be mean.
If that video represents your idea of proper pitching mechanics you are misrepresenting yourself. Ie taking money under false pretenses.
I don't even know where to begin. From beginning to end it bares no resemblence to pitching.
NO set position and I believe what you show is a balk. No leg lift, no balance point no anything.
That is a playing catch with your daughter motion. No actually my daughter would hurt you.
Sir get someone to show you how. You argue with a scout and several people on here that know what they are talking about from years of experience. STOP and listen to expert advise.
I had a chat last week wuth a guy from South Africa whos's son is a 6'5" RHP. He has been her e for years and would listen to no one. He knew it all based on Cricket. Trying to compare a cricket bowlers arm action to a BB pitcher. He even complain to a local organization about his current coach making his son do long toss etc. He knew what was best. It was so rediculous you couldn't talk to him. You are not quite that bad but right up there.
Do youself a favour and learn before you teach. You owe it to your students.
The jump at the end of Coach Chris's video reminded me of Ron Guidry and the hop he had to regain his balance after delivering the ball. That's where the similiarity ends, however.

What's next, a jump shot in the driveway?

I went back and looked at the video a few more times. That's not pitching. You better be saying "Do as Marshall says and not as I do" anytime you demonstrate anything.
Last edited by Baseballdad1228
Well Mike M., whoops, I meant Chris an 8 on fielding ability also> applaude

He looks like he's is about 6' 2"/175 like somebody else I know who up in 'dem mountains over yunder off them back roads hurling that 'dar tater like there's no baseball in heaven. Size wise only though. Besides, that country kid is only 15 and throws a wee bit harder!!!! LOL

Shep Cares
Last edited by Shepster
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