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Question: How much should experience count?

justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
I remember when my older son made the varsity team his sophomore year in HS. They were playing in their 2nd game and he was playing 3B and another sophomore was playing SS. We were comfortably ahead and I wandered down the 3B line to stretch my legs...on my way down the head coach looks at me and says, "I've got a big problem."

Geez, I thought...what problem could he have, he's about to go 2-0 and his pitchers are throwing a no-no in the 5th inning (they finished it off too!). "Whats the problem?," I queried back.

"These sophomores are better than the upperclassmen," he responded. Puzzled, I said, "OK, whats the problem?"

"I can't play them ahead of the seniors...just can't do it," he said.

I've thought about his a lot since then (4 years ago) and wondered if it had any validity. noidea At the time, I thought the guy was nuts...but I remember a quote in the paper last year by a college coach when he said something like, "My top 5 or 6 pitchers are all good enough to start...they all have similar stuff, but I will start the upperclassmen because they've been in the big game and had to make the big pitch."

I wasn't even sure I believed it then...but I've come to agree very much with him. There is no substitute for experience, big game experience...talent CAN close that gap...but it takes a fair amount of extra talent IMO.

I watched my now-college son get behind in the count 3-1 during a game last season (freshman year) with the bases loaded and 2 outs. What did he do? Exactly what he would have done in HS...he threw a HS pitch...a 90 mph fastball over the plate...trying to blow the guy away. BAM! Grand slam! Eek The 2 main starters on his college team hardly ever threw a ball 90 mph, but they were better than him because they sure wouldn't have thrown the pitch he did in that situation and I bet my son won't again either...that is the difference, experience!

So I think some of you have kids about to play in their first college game soon...others have sophomores and even freshmen with lots of talent who you think should make their HS varsity team this year and might not. Why? Maybe the coach wants that experience factor or maybe he's loyal to the guys who have been with him for 3-4 years.

So how much should that experience factor count? Thoughts?
Last edited {1}
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CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I want the best player. I dont want them getting experience on the bench playing behind guys they are better than. Experience? What kind of experience? Good or bad? Longevity is not experience. It just means that you have been somewhere for a while. Why are these younger kids better than these older kids? Especially with all their experience? I just dont buy into that play the older kids they have the experience. You cant get it if you dont play. The fact is if you play the better players the better players will be getting the much needed experience not the players that have it but still are not better. JMO
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
Let me just add this. There is nothing more disheartning than a kid sitting behind another kid when he knows that he is better. What do you tell that player? Son he has more experience? If the kid is better what difference does it make? How do you get experience? By waiting for your turn behind players that you are better than? I cant do that to a kid. I couldnt look him in the eye. I would rather look at the JR or SR and just tell him the facts. Son he is better than you. Maybe you should have worked a little harder to make sure that no one could come in here and take your job. Seniority playing time destroys competition and drive. And it destroys teams.
M Missouri-BB-Dad100+ posts
Define experience. There are 3 or 4 underclassmen on my sons HS team that play 60 - 75 games a year. Many of them in highly competitive tournaments including several championship games. That's learning to handle pressure...that's experience. The other players probably play half to 2/3rds as many games, including the upperclassmen.

I expect it is this way on most HS teams. I agree, go with the best most experienced players. Just make sure you know who the experienced players are.
R rbinaz500+ posts
The most succesful high school programs in this area all have one thing in common: they are coached by guys who are not afraid to play the better player regardless of age or grade.
IMO its the ony way to truly build a program.
If the underclassman is as good as or better than the upperclassman you have to play him. He'll develop more and in the long run the entire program will benefit.
Huge kudos to Coach May good
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
IMO, this is going to the "Golden Thread" page because it is one of the best topics and posts ever. But there might be a little background that could explain why.
Justbb's son pitches at Stanford and had he not gone there, may well have been selected in the first 5 rounds of the draft. He has a ton of talent. But when put into college ball as a freshman, he found that talent, even top talent does not always get outs.
From the things I have learned in the last several years, experience is huge as talent gaps narrow. I think that for a freshman or sophomore to play in college, they have to be so much better than those with more experience that their superior talent can make up for the experience difference. That is one of the fascinating things about college ball is the ability of players to learn from mistakes and how to succeed when they are in that situation a second time. Some learn and some don't and some have exceptional talent that overcomes the experience. With the latter player, they play. For the vast majority, experience plays because they will succeed and produce and that, for the most part, is what college baseball is all about. As that huge talent gap of high school narrows, experience can help a hitter dictate and control both a pitcher and an at bat. Same with pitchers. When you see a college freshman who plays and is successful, you know you are watching a huge talent. For the rest, it is a game of adjustments, and experience dictates that ability.
Last edited by infielddad
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Missouri-BB-Dad:
As was discussed at length in another thread, the coach makes the call right or wrong. And unless he makes a player change during the year that reverses his first decision, we're never 100% sure if his first choice was the best.


May well be a difference on this issue that occurs between high school and college. But I am not sure I agree your view truly applies at the college level. First of all, the college coach has seen every player compete in most every situation, before they play their first game. When they get into the game situation and a player makes a mistake or fails, the coach will certainly talk with them about the situation and how to do things differently next time. Or they may emphasize a little stronger than a "talk." But I am not sure the college coach "makes the player change." In fact I don't think he does. He gives the player the information and instruction to change. Those that are successful adapt, make the change and succeed. Others are still waiting for the "coach to make the change." That is the "experience" factor I think Justbb is talking about. Just my view.
Last edited by infielddad
MN-MomMN-MomHSBaseballWeb Owner
I'm not a very "experienced" college parent, with my son just about to begin his soph season, but jbb's post hit home with me.

Just a few days ago I was asking my son, a 19-yr-old RHP, about the other 4 pitchers who will play key roles for his team this year. 2 are returning starters, and 2 are JUCO transfers, all with considerably more college innings pitched than my son. He was discussing the abilities of each, mentioning this one's velocity, that one's control/location, and the other one's changeup or curveball, etc. But the key point I noticed was that he could see why these guys deserved to pitch in front of him, because they all know how to pitch, how to throw the pitches to college hitters, how to get college hitters out. Don't get me wrong, he is a competitor and wants to earn the right to be the # 1 starter in the future. But he understood that at least on his team, these guys know how to make their experience count.
Last edited by MN-Mom
T Traveldad100+ posts
My son was asked to play this past fall with the high school (as an 8th grader) in a wood bat league. he was called to pitch the bottom of the 7th inning with us winning 1-0. First batter...ground out to third. Second batter...pop up to the catcher. Third batter...error on third baseman. Attempted steal...ball goes into center, runner to third. next batter...fastball fouled straight back, strike one. fastball fouled straight back, strike two. Kid shakes off the sign. Kid shakes off the next sign and calls the catcher to the mound (a junior). Fastball three inches inside, ball one. Fastball 6 inches inside, ball two. Curveball outside (great stop by catcher), ball three. Changeup (his,breaks hard down and in to righty), strike three!!

The coach was his Jr. high baseball coach and said to mom and me afterward " he has enough experience to know how to get out of that situation."

We asked him on the way home and he said the last batter was all over his FB, so he tried to get him off the plate and maybe chase the curve away. If that failed it was the changeup because the batter had not seen that yet. But he had to tell the catcher to abandon the FB.

My point is experience is not solely determined by age...IMO. We're thankful now that his travel and Jr. high coach have put him in these situations so that now he has situational knowledge and "moxey" to succeed against older players.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
We are back to the "catch 22" situation--you want experience but how does a player get experience if he doesnt play in those situations

I like to have the better player in any situation regardless of his age or class. As a coach you can make sure that as a pitcher he doesn't throw one down the groove alley simply by talking to him prior to the at bat.

I believe that on the field talent in most cases with outshine the experience factor of a less talented player.

I would much rather have a roster of talented ines xperienced players than a roster of lesser talent with socalled experience
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by jbb: "These sophomores are better than the upperclassmen," . . . . . "I can't play them ahead of the seniors...just can't do it," he said
jbb, I wouldn't read so much into it,
that was just a pretty smooth coach stroking the ego of a future key player's pop dirol


also there can be several factors to consider in putting the best player(s) on the field -
experience and game instincts ARE important


there are guys whose tools don't match up AND don't have imposing stats
yet always seem to get you the clutch hit,
OR - instinctivly position themselves on defense then make the big play

a good coach will have instincts for spotting these guys and getting the most out of them -

however, if all it takes is sorting BA and FLD% values, my 3rd grade nephew could make out the lineup -



JBB, don't be so ruff on the kid for the "hs pitch"
wondering, did you happen to ask the coach why HE called it?? dazeda


.
Last edited by Bee>
W Will1,000+ posts
I am always intrigued with the seniors must play. Well in the ideal situation the seniors would be more talented but that is not always the case. You play the best players. If the kid is a senior and is getting the job done he plays if not he does not. One year we were struggling big time with seniors. after one game after stinking up the place I had had enough. I sat them played some underclassmen and even brought up some jv kids. they did not like it but really did not care. worked out well as the kids I brought up played well and we were successful the next 2 years.
dad10dad10100+ posts
Coming at it the other way, last year I watched several JV games. The level of play was appallingly bad. It would be stupid to have talented underclassmen 'play down' with kids their own age if they were truly talented.

This may not be true elsewhere, but there are very few kids in the HS here that have played any travel ball, and only one or two who have played fall baseball. They are all products of in-town LL and Babe Ruth leagues, mostly with bad to numbingly average coaching. The most games they've played in any one season prior to HS was 30-35 games tops, and some kids not even that many. One incoming freshman has played travel ball and played 75+ games every year for the past 4 years, many of them "big games". Regional and National championship tournaments. In addition another 16 games in the fall each of those years. (Almost needless to say his work ethic is superior or he wouldn't have chosen the long-term committment and excelled) Clearly he is better than any of last years JV players, and would probably make a good starter on the varsity team.

Whether he will or not, I don't know. I tend to doubt it. In fact, on a side note, while we have another year to go before my son is in HS, I'm reading here and there that High Schools are getting their tryouts/workouts going. Our HS still has no Varsity coach. The coach quit last June and they haven't even replaced him yet. Sadly, baseball is not much of a priority around here.
Last edited by dad10
ChillChill1,000+ posts
My son's HS coach used to have a saying:

You win with seniors.

And if those seniors had made a real committment to the game and had put in the time and effort that makes you a better player, than I would agree.

However, in our case, the seniors had not done that, and our best team IMO, was a younger team where only a handful of boys had sought out better coaching/a committed group of players/national competition.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Infielddad,
Great post from an EXPERIENCED dad!

A coach's job is to see that younger players get a chance to develop to be able to compete in the BIG games. As a parent of a college player, I would expect mine to have his start, but he also knows, as a sophomore that he will not get the weekend start unless the more experienced players fail. If a coach has 5 players pretty much matched in ability, the more experienced players get the nod. I am ok with that. But if son was not given any opportunity to get that experience, I think he would be disappointed and as a parent I would be too. You don't learn by sitting on the bench, in any sport.
In another post we basically agreed, you learn the game by practicing. Why is it hard to accept that you have to learn by the experience also. The opportunity for a college pitcher comes by way of relief innings, for a position player as a sub. As your son moves up, you learn that very quickly there is a pecking order.
As Infielddad suggests, there are very FEW younger players at the college level who have the natural extinct and talent to go into the game and perform asap, on the college level. Most get that opportunity right away if it is a young team. And even if they do have better ability, if the older more experienced player is getting the job done, he will get the nod. I admire the coach with that attitude.

JBB asked a question. Honestly, if your son was the older more experienced player replaced by a younger inexperienced player who had more talent, would yuou accept that?
Last edited by TPM
20dad20dad1,000+ posts
i see different views from different perspectives.travel ball,college ball,hs ball.in my opinion all have different intentions, in my opinion.i can only speak to what i see and feal about our area.high school is, in our area a hit or miss talent wise,you get some real standouts but mostly average players.i think if you have underclass men that even stevey wonder can see are better than they must play.that being said it's a rare parent that can see the whole picture.we all want our kids to play varsity as a freshman or sophmore.but kids know more than we think.they know who should be out there. i'm not saying kids don't get screwed from time to time, but usually they know. travel ball is mostly about exposure and winning.alot of time and money is spent by coaches and parents.this can sometimes spell disaster as everyone paid my kid should play.and with enough games in a season they do.but when the rubber hits the road you want the best on the field.no doubt.college again should be about winning.


i think the best should be in the game,the big question who are the best.talent can sometimes be a gray area.
B Bee>1,000+ posts
quote:
by 20dad: it's a rare parent that can see the whole picture.
great observation dazeda


this topic always brings out opposing views -

it would be VERY rare for upperclassmen "developing" under a GOOD COACH for 3/4 yrs
to NOT hold off the challenge of a youngster


& if it's a bad program with a bad coach, well does it really matter one way or the other?


.
Last edited by Bee>
infielddadinfielddad10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Traveldad:
My son was asked to play this past fall with the high school (as an 8th grader) in a wood bat league. he was called to pitch the bottom of the 7th inning with us winning 1-0. First batter...ground out to third. Second batter...pop up to the catcher. Third batter...error on third baseman. Attempted steal...ball goes into center, runner to third. next batter...fastball fouled straight back, strike one. fastball fouled straight back, strike two. Kid shakes off the sign. Kid shakes off the next sign and calls the catcher to the mound (a junior). Fastball three inches inside, ball one. Fastball 6 inches inside, ball two. Curveball outside (great stop by catcher), ball three. Changeup (his,breaks hard down and in to righty), strike three!!

My point is experience is not solely determined by age...IMO. We're thankful now that his travel and Jr. high coach have put him in these situations so that now he has situational knowledge and "moxey" to succeed against older players.


TravelDad, I hope you will not mind my using your example to make a point about talent and experience. When players get to a college like Justbb's and beyond that, every player is hugely talented. Coaches have to find critical differences that may not be necessary in high school/travel ball.
I think your post is really important because it readily demonstrates my view of the difference between talent and experience. Your son's talent got that final out. However, as he progresses, I think there is a better than 50/50 chance the drive home would be spent talking about the first and second fastball, not the 3rd strike. The reason: in college, a talented, experienced hitter is not going to miss that second fastball. Might miss the first, but the way you describe it, the experienced pitcher would not have thrown the second fastball and if he did, he would likely pay the price. Good college hitters do not miss that second fastball.
That is why baseball is so interesting to me. Since your son succeeded in this situation, he rightly celebrated. If he never sees the potential he made a mistake throwing that second fastball, he would not have had the experience of failure and likely would make the same pitch and had the same "experience" justbb describes. That is why I think experience makes a difference and why freshman can struggle in college. The pitches that got them outs and the mistakes they got away with in high school, they do not get away with in college. They need to retool their approach and it is the "experience" of "failure" that helps that process.
I think many of you know our son had some Spring training at bats against Randy Johnson. In talking to him, it is amazing how much he learned from those at bats. It is also amazing to think that once he caught up with the fastball and fouled it straight back, as dominating as Johnson is, he still respected a minor leaguer and did not throw him a second one. Maybe I am wrong on this assumption, but I am betting that Johnson's experience showed him that hitters in professional baseball, at any level, do not miss that pitch twice and to throw it twice is a mistake.
Last edited by infielddad
observer44observer441,000+ posts
Agree with Fungo...

quote:
We are back to the "catch 22" situation--you want experience but how does a player get experience if he doesnt play in those situations


It's an art not a science. The best coaches may play upperclassmen but a way to get the younger guys some excellent experience in big play situations.

Our HS coach has won 10 league titles in a row and often has a soph or two up, maybe not starting, learning to understand the roles, responsibilities, attitudes of a quality program these players become his leaders in following years and carry on team tradition and an understanding of what a winning program does at all levels.

Cool 44
Last edited by observer44
rz1rz15,000+ posts
As a year goes on a coach and the rest of the team usually realizes who should be playing. Out of respect and the fact the young guy has not been "proven", experience rules in the beginning. A good coach will slip the young guy in to see how he responds and watch his maturation. The changes will happen naturally, for the good of the team.

There are a lot of "arm chair quarterbacks", usually parents, that use that "experience" excuse why little Johnnie is not playing, but, many times they are looking at the team with parental blinders on.
Last edited by rz1
justbaseballjustbaseball10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Bee>:
jbb, I wouldn't read so much into it,
that was just a pretty smooth coach stroking the ego of a future key player's pop dirol
.


Good point! Except if you knew this coach, I'm not so sure that point would have occurred to him. Confused

quote:
JBB, don't be so ruff on the kid for the "hs pitch"
wondering, did you happen to ask the coach why HE called it??


I believe the boy shook to the fastball. cry
Last edited by justbaseball
averner3averner310+ posts
At the risk of sounding callous any level past
recreational ball best player plays...period. it is a competative sport.The real key is having all players old & young striving to get better.Sometimes the players compete then become friends and the weaker player gets better.All players need to be pushed and not get complacent.Also a role player that steps up when called upon is a joy to see as a coach. Maybe I'm just a little"old school" for todays PC(politically correct) world...

baseball7
RHP05ParentRHP05Parent1,000+ posts
I'm with JBB on this one. Yes, I agree with most that the most talented should play. But, when the game is on the line I have witnessed many times where talent will not perform at their best where the more experienced player continues his steadily performance. IMO, unless the underclassmen HS player has played with a strong travel team and/or in the national arena, there is a tendency to let the pressure get to them. So, when the game is on the line I'd go with experience over the talented younger player.
catchermom03catchermom03500+ posts
dad10,
I do not know which part of the state you hail from BUT my sons experience growing up was vastly different than what you bemoan...he played in a very competitive LL program that was comprised of 3 leagues...5 teams per league, 15 kids on a roster...the All Star team that was a year older than my son won the state championship and went on to the regionals...my sons group won the area and was booted in the sectionals...after LL he played a combination of Babe Ruth and AAU(till he was 17)...HS was very, very competitive...he was brought up to varsity as a Sophomore and we won the Division 1 State Championship that year...of the 6 Seniors that were on that team 5 are now in pro organizations...HS coach usually does not bring Freshmen up to Varsity but always has an underclassman on the bench behind an upperclassman to learn the position..they do get a minimum amount of PT but in conference games they usually sit...if you understand his,the coach, rationale you will be fine...think your son is the team "stud" and it can and will become an awful learning experience...but to say the level of competition here is poor is a pretty unfair assumption...go out and watch a few more games..especially Varsity Catholic Conference games
Last edited by catchermom03
dad10dad10100+ posts
catchermom03,
Dedham is a good town for baseball, Braintree, Westwood, Xaverian - alot of good players and coaches. There are great LL/Babe Ruth programs around eastern mass. That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to our town program. Some age levels in town have had good success, but the general view here is that baseball is that sport that comes between basketball and football. Parents drop their kids off and pick them up a couple hours later and they play what they think is baseball. The fact that the HS has yet to name a coach is also a bit lame, since I would imagine a good HS coach would want to be working on a season game plan at this point.

I wasn't really moaning about it, because I saw what was happening early on and my son has played AAU ball for several years now, and we don't play town ball. He's on a team with many good players and that's what he enjoys. He's not one to get a big head over it. Just works hard and looking forward to the season.

Sorry if I wasn't very lucid on that, I didn't mean to disparage all of Massachusetts baseball, I've seen lots of good baseball, but most of it has been through AAU, other towns and other age groups (both older and younger.) We're not far from you actually.
Last edited by dad10
CM Coach May1,000+ posts
I believe that no one starts out with a posistion they are all open and then earned. How much drive will you get from a sr if he knows that because he is a sr he has the job. Or because he started last year the job is his to loose not earn. No the way to build a team and to have that internal competition for jobs is to give everyone a fair and equal opportunity to earn a posistion on the field regardless of age or anything else.
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