Question about hitting instructor..

There are going to be "growing pains" whenever making adjustments with a swing.  Generally speaking, not letting one's hands get too far away from one's body is a universal truth in hitting.  Are there other issues?

Always ask the question WHY? Work with in the mirror. Visualize success.

Brian is one our discoveries.

Bob

3and2Fastball posted:

There are going to be "growing pains" whenever making adjustments with a swing.  Generally speaking, not letting one's hands get too far away from one's body is a universal truth in hitting.  Are there other issues?

No, not at all. Right now a lack of confidence maybe. Also, when I say a "crappy" summer most kids would like to have such a crappy summer. And Mr Mccann told him that given what he saw in him, if he were to make these changes and then go to some showcases and prove he could hit 90+ he'd be drafted next year and drafted high.

That said he's still a 17 yr old kid who has enjoyed a lot of success and was/is proud of his swing. Me, given some of the treads on here about kids going to collage and struggling for the first time and not knowing how to deal with it, I'm not sure this is such a bad thing, and maybe even, in the long run may be good for him.

Great athletes can dominate high school ball with sub par swing mechanics  but not every swing adjustment is a good one and some "issues" are just style things that shouldn't be changed. It is definitely a risk to change a college swing, make sure he knows what he does. 

Maybe be post a video here.

Was he hitting 90+ pitches BEFORE the adjustments were made?

I doubt he just made the adjustment that quickly after one lesson.  If he truly had a deficiency in his swing, he will need thousands of repetitions performed correctly before his body will remember that change.  He should go back to that coach routinely (maybe virtually) and work on that swing change.  Tape the corrected swing, watch it, and swing and tape again.  Compare the swings.  Get a second opinion. It sounds to me like you have a kid who is stuck between tweaks to his swing, without the one who initiated the swing working with him repetitively until completed.

I am firm believer that mechanical changes are made during the off season.

I have no idea if this swing change is for the better or not or if he needed a change. I would only offer that I think it is misguided to take a lesson mid season from a trainer who doesn't know you and decide to change your swing while playing.

I also think the trainer from another part of the country should think about the timing of events before they go an tweak a player they know nothing about and most likely will never see again.

As with many things a good idea without practical implementation often does more harm then good.

Yeah I can post a video. Didn't know if that was frowned upon here. Not tonight though, long day today and it's a shower and bed for me.

Don't know about the hitting 90's. Yes he's faced plenty of pitchers that threw into the 90's and he hit them, but were they throwing 90's that day I don't know.

As for the last two post. This guy is 8 hrs form us. Supposedly hard to get into but we knew someone. Has MLB clients as I understand it. So I assume he knows what he's talking about. As for the repetition and making the change in the off season, that was the plan. I thought we were done for the year but then an opportunity to play came up. We have discussed just reverting to the old swing and picking back up in the off season.

All that said the reason for the post remains. A lot of people have seen his swing and this is the first person to say something. Now I feel a lot of what he says makes sense. But convincing a 17 yr old kid who just hit .402 (kinda an off season for him) and lead the state in HR's most of the yr that he needs to change his swing is a different story.

I will add this. I have a little camera that takes high speed vids. Because of that I know that with a lot of people, even supposed "hitting instructors", what they think they see isn't what they are really seeing. You wouldn't believe the amount of times someone says "he's doing this" or "he's doing that". But when you look at the film he's doing neither.

SomeBaseballDad posted:

I will add this. I have a little camera that takes high speed vids. Because of that I know that with a lot of people, even supposed "hitting instructors", what they think they see isn't what they are really seeing. You wouldn't believe the amount of times someone says "he's doing this" or "he's doing that". But when you look at the film he's doing neither.

bolded part is spot on. I have heard similar about my sons or their teammates, then put them on camera the next few AB's and what the eye sees sometimes is just not correct.

Here is the best I can tell you, my 2017 plays for 2 different organizations (school and travel) plus does hitting instruction with a different guy. He had been with his instructor for several years before the others. We agreed he is going to stick with his swing until he is sure he wants to change it or he gets to college and his coach there wants to make changes...he is polite, he listens, sometimes he even takes something relevant from one of the coaches but for the most part it is in one ear and out the other when it comes to hitting. You can't serve 3 masters and he is good enough that if he is polite and not confrontational it is ok.

lets face it a baseball swing is worse then politics, everyone has an opinion and they are sure everyone else is wrong...and they all believe science is on their side!!

Once he gets to college it is new ball game, he will be an adult or close to it and he and his coach will have to work it out.  

So here's the vid. First one will be slow mo from this year. Next live action from last.

I can see what the instructor is talking about and would agree that the hands are getting away from him a little bit and causing him to get a little "long". He does a lot of really good things so it's no wonder that he has had success. Will this flaw cause him to struggle at the next level? Tough to say, but I do believe that there is room for improvement in this area. You can see in the pictures below the hands get pretty far away and then kind of drop away from the back shoulder compared to Miggy. In my opinion, one of the things that creates a "short" swing is the hands working closely with the back shoulder during this part of the swing to tighten the arc of the swing. Also, keep in mind, this may be a result of the trunk not getting the shoulders on plane as much as it is the hands not staying up with the back shoulder. Hope that makes sense.

I think the lower Body and posture is very good. However he is moving the knob Independent of the rear shoulder thus being a Little ot of sequence (songtitle might chime in on that)

You want the Hands to stay on the right side of the Body and rotate Forward and down simultaneously with the back should initially.

Don't move the knob from back to front (shoulder) but stay besides you. tewksbary had a good post on that.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Huda3vQUPN4

but Overall it definitely it is a good swing and changing it now is a risk.

so it is not perfect, it is very good and he isn't being looked for being perfect it is what he projects to being...IMO I wouldn't change a thing right now, I would let him get where he is going and them decide what the future looks like then.

Which swing does your son prefer?  His new swing is way different and you can tell he needs more reps with a the instructor.  Personally, I think this is too drastic a change to happen that quickly, without weekly instruction with a trained eye and many repetitions.  I think his old swing (sdv0092) is much better.  What was the instructor trying to achieve - steeper bat angle (the pro swing)? My opinion on the first one is that he does not have the timing down yet and he needs a hitting coach that can correct all the things going wrong with that swing. Frankly I'd question the instructor with the video and get additional feedback.  There are lots of people who think you have to increase the bat angle, which did occur in the new swing, but you can do that without jacking the arm over the head.  I think you could combine what's best with both swings and he be crushing it.  Old load, a little more knob towards catcher, old approach to ball with steeper bat angle and that's it. Control the elbows. Do you have any video from behind or with swing comparison off a tee?

Good luck!

Sorry, there's been a little confusion.

The kid hits over the winter with the scout who's fall league he's in now. While being very high up in his org he's a scout, not a hitting coach. It's more a lot of reps than anything. I don't go because the guy kinda frowns on parents and the kid isn't a baby anymore.

So he changed his swing there, from the normal speed vid from last year to the slow mo one of this year. That vid was taken before he saw Mr Mccann. I wasn't to happy but was told to mind my own business.

I believe given the mixed results he saw this year, plus the input from Mr Mccann and here, he knows he has a little work to do during the off season. I couldn't help but point out that "if it ain't broke fix it" might not be the best advice to go forward with from now on.

I can see a much more relaxed upper body w the new swing, the older swing he's getting long and by default, less flexible with his left arm; creates more friction/bat drag, it's difficult to be quick to the ball, and the tendency is for hands to drop prior to hips, meaning long to the ball and some bat drag.  Great athletes will compensate.  

For reference: look at Kris Bryant's relaxed upper body...soft hands and elbows, but balance and ready to pounce.

I get what the instructor is seeing.  A talented kid that will make it in college, but an adjustment could be made to allow him to be more reactive with power, and readily  prepared for very advanced pitching. The guy saw one helluva an athlete.

Keep us posted.

(editing to tell myself to mind my own business, but I've seen this...) 

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing (see 1st video 0:12-0:14 or so).  This is creating a little bat drag, and doesn't allow the bat head to move backwards as the back elbow comes down (0:13-0:14). 

SultanofSwat posted:

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing (see 1st video 0:12-0:14 or so).  This is creating a little bat drag, and doesn't allow the bat head to move backwards as the back elbow comes down (0:13-0:14). 

bingo

SultanofSwat posted:

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing (see 1st video 0:12-0:14 or so).  This is creating a little bat drag, and doesn't allow the bat head to move backwards as the back elbow comes down (0:13-0:14). 

I understand why this is taught, why it is emphasized.  But I'm not entirely sure as to it's validity.  Giancarlo Stanton consistently gets his hands behind his back elbow a little and has some of the highest exit velocities ever recorded.  Now I suppose one could say that Stanton could improve if he fixed that part of his swing mechanics, I don't know.  Barry Bonds would be a good person to consult on that.

I think there are some real nit-picky things that can happen with swing instruction that can take the athleticism out of a swing unintentionally.  

There are aspects of the swings of many of the All-Time Greats that 97% of modern day "hitting instructors" wouldn't tolerate.

Back foot in the air is another one that drives hitting instructors crazy.   Yet Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, & Frank Thomas did it their entire careers.   You walk a 14 year old into most any hitting lesson with a swing identical to Anthony Rizzo's and the hitting instructor would immediately say the kid has his hands too low, "it'll never work"

A few years ago at the Chicago White Sox Area Code team tryout at Notre Dame, the White Sox scouts including the Scouting Director "tease" me.

"Bob, I hear that you can bat speed over the phone". Yes, I can place the phone next to a batting tee, use a wood bat and swing. The Scouting Director said "maybe we can hire Stevie Wonder as a Scout" I said yes " he will also provide you music to swing by".

Bob

3and2Fastball posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing (see 1st video 0:12-0:14 or so).  This is creating a little bat drag, and doesn't allow the bat head to move backwards as the back elbow comes down (0:13-0:14). 

I understand why this is taught, why it is emphasized.  But I'm not entirely sure as to it's validity.  Giancarlo Stanton consistently gets his hands behind his back elbow a little and has some of the highest exit velocities ever recorded.  Now I suppose one could say that Stanton could improve if he fixed that part of his swing mechanics, I don't know.  Barry Bonds would be a good person to consult on that.

I think there are some real nit-picky things that can happen with swing instruction that can take the athleticism out of a swing unintentionally.  

There are aspects of the swings of many of the All-Time Greats that 97% of modern day "hitting instructors" wouldn't tolerate.

Back foot in the air is another one that drives hitting instructors crazy.   Yet Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, & Frank Thomas did it their entire careers.   You walk a 14 year old into most any hitting lesson with a swing identical to Anthony Rizzo's and the hitting instructor would immediately say the kid has his hands too low, "it'll never work"

Yeah I have noticed in the vids his dropping the barrel and coming around his mid arm. I also think he should be more direct to the ball. I think Mr Mccann is right and his swing could be tighten up.

So that begs the question, How do you convince a kid who hit .491 half year varsity as a freshman and took a so-so team to semi-state, hit .449 full time varsity as a soph, and hit .402 as a jr and lead the state for most of the yr in HR's while being pitched around, that he needs to change his swing? 

Or do you need too. How do you know when your kid is just another player or if he can make these "mistakes" and still excel?

Baseball is all about making adjustments. Once a hitter realizes that he's being pitched a certain way because of a flaw, or he realizes that there's a hole in his swing, he must be able to adjust. 

I think the question that you should ask yourself is, do I believe that my son can make adjustments to his swing?

There's one or two things I'd like my son to do differently and I believe that he will have to should he progress in baseball. But I already know he is capable of making quick adjustments, so why bother with it now?  He'll be able to do it down the road. 

Just my opinion. 

3and2Fastball posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing

I understand why this is taught, why it is emphasized.  But I'm not entirely sure as to it's validity.  Giancarlo Stanton consistently gets his hands behind his back elbow a little and has some of the highest exit velocities ever recorded.

Great, great question. Here's the difference.

Stanton keeps his hands even or ahead of his back elbow until the elbow action is completely over. Watch Stanton (0:07-0:08 below - can edit settings, speed, 0.25) take his rear forearm from horizontal (at toe touch) all the way to vertical, and his hands are always even, or ahead. Only then, after the elbow/bathead action is complete, does he take his elbow forward for one slow-mo frame only (1/200 of a second or so) and the hands are behind the elbow for that one frame.

Now, compare that to the OP, and the OP's hands are behind the back elbow during the entire elbow/bathead action from horizontal to vertical.

So, the OP's action is unlike any MLB power hitter.  Yet, it is like many HS hitters that never make it to the show.  Listen to Mr McCann.

SultanofSwat posted:

3and2Fastball posted:

SultanofSwat posted:

Your hands should never be behind the rear elbow at any time during the swing

I understand why this is taught, why it is emphasized.  But I'm not entirely sure as to it's validity.  Giancarlo Stanton consistently gets his hands behind his back elbow a little and has some of the highest exit velocities ever recorded.

 

Now, compare that to the OP, and the OP's hands are behind the back elbow during the entire elbow/bathead action from horizontal to vertical.

So, the OP's action is unlike any MLB power hitter.  Yet, it is like many HS hitters that never make it to the show.  Listen to Mr McCann.

OK, so how would you suggest one go about fixing that portion of his swing?

maybe this kind of load could help him

https://youtu.be/aW35jTjr0fc