If you have a player who is hitting well and you "think' you see a flaw in his swing do you try to change him.
I am a "if it ain't broke don't mess with it" kind of guy
How about you?
Original Post
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quote:Originally posted by TRhit:
If you have a player who is hitting well and you "think' you see a flaw in his swing do you try to change him.
I am a "if it ain't broke don't mess with it" kind of guy
How about you?
Ditto! Only thing would be if he got in a mini slump, that would be the first thing I would do to try to fix it. That way he may not object to the change. Bottom line though, is that if he's still hitting the top pitchers, it may not be an important flaw for his swing or athletic ability. JMO
2,3,5,10 years early, how does he feelyou knew there was a flaw and didn't tell him.
Will you still as he struggles to make the changes? result in some losses that would have been wins?
Or will you "pick em clean, quick"? Dump him for the next make you look smart.
Will you still as he struggles to make the changes? result in some losses that would have been wins?
Or will you "pick em clean, quick"? Dump him for the next make you look smart.
Chameleon, you make a valid point....
mic
Mark Grace has the best advice to get out of slumps, but I have not tried it yet.
quote:Ditto! Only thing would be if he got in a mini slump, that would be the first thing I would do to try to fix it.
Mark Grace has the best advice to get out of slumps, but I have not tried it yet.
quote:but I have not tried it yet.
Me neither, as my wife probably would not approve!
The cyberspace twins speak inanely once again from their garage training facilities---
Who is talking trophies?
I asked a simple question and I still say that if it aint broke you dont try and fix it until it need to be fixed but then you cyberspace twins have all the answers, or at least you think you do.
I know who we coach but you two have yet to inform anyone who you teach/coach / Isnt that a bit weird?
Perhaps none exist other than in your cyberspace minds
Who is talking trophies?
I asked a simple question and I still say that if it aint broke you dont try and fix it until it need to be fixed but then you cyberspace twins have all the answers, or at least you think you do.
I know who we coach but you two have yet to inform anyone who you teach/coach / Isnt that a bit weird?
Perhaps none exist other than in your cyberspace minds
let's face it, this whole thread was started with the last post in mind. Another opportunity for you to bash BlueDog and Chameleon. It has become obvious watching it over the past couple of years, and has a certain pettiness about it. You should hold yourself to a higher standard where you're not picking fights when uprovoked.
TR, do you teach hitting? Or, just run a program to recruit players and enter them in tourneys. (Admittedly, you do bring value in what you do for players in recruiting and obtaining exposure)
My guess is you don't teach any aspect of the game itself. So cut those guys some slack. They bring a lot to the table in the conversation of hitting.
And please don't use the argument that hitting can't be taught over the internet. Information can be explained for a coach/player to have a better understanding on something that is then worked on by the player.
You are good at what you do. But, that is not on the instructional aspect of the game.
That being said, because a hitter is hitting at the level he is at, why wait to until he fails at a higher level to teach him higher level hitting.
I recall PGStaff commenting on his own son in a thread. I may not be exactly correct in all the details, but, the point of it was his son was hitting, and had always hit. PG felt that the swing had some issues, but why mess with it. That particular son eventually reached a level where that swing wasn't working as well. I beleve PG commented on how he felt he should have addressed it earlier, even though the swing was working at that level. I also believe he commented that it was difficult to re-teach the hitting after years of having that swing ingrained in him.
The point being, competition at each step is increasingly competitive. The patience time frame gets reduced at each level.
Why not fix flaws now, instead of waiting until the player fails? The coach that lets it continue is doing an injustice to the player.
TR, do you teach hitting? Or, just run a program to recruit players and enter them in tourneys. (Admittedly, you do bring value in what you do for players in recruiting and obtaining exposure)
My guess is you don't teach any aspect of the game itself. So cut those guys some slack. They bring a lot to the table in the conversation of hitting.
And please don't use the argument that hitting can't be taught over the internet. Information can be explained for a coach/player to have a better understanding on something that is then worked on by the player.
You are good at what you do. But, that is not on the instructional aspect of the game.
That being said, because a hitter is hitting at the level he is at, why wait to until he fails at a higher level to teach him higher level hitting.
I recall PGStaff commenting on his own son in a thread. I may not be exactly correct in all the details, but, the point of it was his son was hitting, and had always hit. PG felt that the swing had some issues, but why mess with it. That particular son eventually reached a level where that swing wasn't working as well. I beleve PG commented on how he felt he should have addressed it earlier, even though the swing was working at that level. I also believe he commented that it was difficult to re-teach the hitting after years of having that swing ingrained in him.
The point being, competition at each step is increasingly competitive. The patience time frame gets reduced at each level.
Why not fix flaws now, instead of waiting until the player fails? The coach that lets it continue is doing an injustice to the player.
noreast
YOU ARE SO OFF BASE IT IS PITIFUL !!!! Don't guess or assume anything about anyone because 9 out of 10 times you will be wrong
I have talked with many coaches about this and
was interested in what the people on this site thought---I don't need to bash them as they do it for themselves---then came at me if you will notice--if they want to throw barbs I will defend myself anytime they or anyone else jumps in my face, including you
No, I am not a "hitting teacher" such as they claim to be but I/WE instruct our players as we coach them and try to improve their game. Perhaps I might know more about playing the game than you might think I do. We work in "real" time, not cyberspace, because I truly believe that you can discuss on the internet but not teach/instruct--- instructing in baseball is one on one in "real" time but then they call me "old school"---
Sorry that you interpreted my original post as you did BUT you are off base !!!
YOU ARE SO OFF BASE IT IS PITIFUL !!!! Don't guess or assume anything about anyone because 9 out of 10 times you will be wrong
I have talked with many coaches about this and
was interested in what the people on this site thought---I don't need to bash them as they do it for themselves---then came at me if you will notice--if they want to throw barbs I will defend myself anytime they or anyone else jumps in my face, including you
No, I am not a "hitting teacher" such as they claim to be but I/WE instruct our players as we coach them and try to improve their game. Perhaps I might know more about playing the game than you might think I do. We work in "real" time, not cyberspace, because I truly believe that you can discuss on the internet but not teach/instruct--- instructing in baseball is one on one in "real" time but then they call me "old school"---
Sorry that you interpreted my original post as you did BUT you are off base !!!
If it works , don't fix it.
If a player can hit a ball pitched at the level he is playing and have success, then leave it alone.
As the competition gets better or the pitch speed increases, then tweaking is in order. Tweaking can be anything from better posture in the stance, to shortening the swing.
I have always believed that we have to teach mechanics first, timing second and hitting for the desired result third.
Just as you can't teach speed, you can't teach bat speed. Batters will eventually reach the point where they can't get the bat in the zone fast enough to make contact. All the tweaking in the world will not increase bat speed beyond the physical capability of the batter.
If a player can hit a ball pitched at the level he is playing and have success, then leave it alone.
As the competition gets better or the pitch speed increases, then tweaking is in order. Tweaking can be anything from better posture in the stance, to shortening the swing.
I have always believed that we have to teach mechanics first, timing second and hitting for the desired result third.
Just as you can't teach speed, you can't teach bat speed. Batters will eventually reach the point where they can't get the bat in the zone fast enough to make contact. All the tweaking in the world will not increase bat speed beyond the physical capability of the batter.
quincy, I agree with the order that you teach. However the batspeed part I disagree with for one reason. You can teach and increase batspeed, no I realize that we can't make someone have the batspeed of say Albert Pujhols. But we can increase it with proper weight training and also over and underload programs.
In my view, that would be tweaking.
We all hit the wall at some point. The ones who still have room before the wall will usually be successful.
Foot speed and bat speed are within us at birth. We can develop one or both, but there will be a finite point where our bodies cannot go beyond.
We all hit the wall at some point. The ones who still have room before the wall will usually be successful.
Foot speed and bat speed are within us at birth. We can develop one or both, but there will be a finite point where our bodies cannot go beyond.
My main question is if he is hitting, is it really a flaw? I understand that as pitching gets better,the hitters must get better and have good mechanics to hit but each person is different.
You haven't said what the "flaw" was so the above statement is just thrown out there.
My observation is that you are NOT a hitting instructor so imo,YOU should't try to change something that is working.I understand you probably do know quite a bit about hitting but that isn't your area of expertise.
If you truly feel he would gain from a change,then inform him what you think he is doing and what you think needs to be done but tell him to get a hitting instructor to fix it, if in fact he wants to take his hitting to the next level.If he does,he will take the neccessary steps to make it happen,if he doesn't,then there is no reason to waist your time.
You haven't said what the "flaw" was so the above statement is just thrown out there.
My observation is that you are NOT a hitting instructor so imo,YOU should't try to change something that is working.I understand you probably do know quite a bit about hitting but that isn't your area of expertise.
If you truly feel he would gain from a change,then inform him what you think he is doing and what you think needs to be done but tell him to get a hitting instructor to fix it, if in fact he wants to take his hitting to the next level.If he does,he will take the neccessary steps to make it happen,if he doesn't,then there is no reason to waist your time.
tfox
A few things here
First I asked a simple question looking for responses---some respond and other throw darts
Second
I said I was not a "hitting instructor"---never made that claim--much rather "coach" our players as we progress
Third---I wont get into the semantics with the "Cyberspace Cowboys" ---As I have said, read my posts, I work with out kids one on one in "real life" not on a website but during the games, before and after as does our staff. Perhaps in this day and age of the Cyberspace Guru is seems absurd to you but that is our way and it work
A few things here
First I asked a simple question looking for responses---some respond and other throw darts
Second
I said I was not a "hitting instructor"---never made that claim--much rather "coach" our players as we progress
Third---I wont get into the semantics with the "Cyberspace Cowboys" ---As I have said, read my posts, I work with out kids one on one in "real life" not on a website but during the games, before and after as does our staff. Perhaps in this day and age of the Cyberspace Guru is seems absurd to you but that is our way and it work
Tfox, you nailed it......... 
The great thing about discussions pertaining to hitting on here is, you can take the information being presented, trial-and-error it yourself and make a very educated decision on it's worthiness to you, or lack thereof......
The great thing about discussions pertaining to hitting on here is, you can take the information being presented, trial-and-error it yourself and make a very educated decision on it's worthiness to you, or lack thereof......
I think you completely misunderstood my response.I think you are so ready to fight that you completely overlooked the response.
If the kid wants to get better,point him in the direction to get better.He will make the decision.
That was all I was saying.
I agree,it won't happen on the internet.
If you are not a hitting instructor(hitting teacher),which YOU STATED,then point him where he needs to go IF HE WANTS TO GET BETTER.
If the kid wants to get better,point him in the direction to get better.He will make the decision.
That was all I was saying.
I agree,it won't happen on the internet.
If you are not a hitting instructor(hitting teacher),which YOU STATED,then point him where he needs to go IF HE WANTS TO GET BETTER.
I’m not sure about many things, but one thing I am fairly sure about is that everything an athlete does can be improved. And that improvement can involve teaching. That includes bat speed and running speed. It amazes me how many do not run efficiently or swing the bat efficiently or throw efficiently. We see them every day we watch players. And some of the players who do these things incorrectly are very successful at the level they play at now. Yet, they could all improve. Should they?
IMO, I think there is something to be said about “if it aint broke don’t fix it”! There’s also something to say about “if it works, don’t fix it”!
How well does it work? What if it is broke but it’s also working right now. What if your car is running fine, low on oil? What if your faulty parachute still opens? What if you don’t know how to fight but you can beat up all the little kids in the neighborhood? What if you can’t see very well but still hit over .500 with a bunch of home runs in the little league? Do we send you to the eye doctor or wait till you quit hitting?
I’m not a big believer in changing what’s working, but if I see a young one eyed hitter whose hitting the heck out of youth pitching, I’m going to help him become a two eyed hitter, (Unless he’s only got one eye) rather than watch certain failure when he gets at a higher level. Same goes for other things that sooner or later just can’t work.
There have been hitters who are among the best ever who could be considered untraditional or different. But there are some things all the great ones do similarly and there’s other things that simply will not work at the higher levels. If these are not changed the hitter just accumulates and practices the bad habit over and over. The more established the habit becomes the harder it is to change. Allowing players to do things wrong over and over has probably cut short many future possibilities. If a hitter has excellent “natural” hitting ability but does one of those things that simply won’t work at a higher level, I would try to help him and if he can hit he will still hit. Not talking about “style”, here. The young kid who learns correctly from day I has a nice advantage.
We can always say we are going to wait and find out if and when he fails or we can try to do something about it. We all know that getting by with things when we were young and not preparing for the future has a low success rate. The odds of someone getting a college education or having a chance at professional baseball are minimal. Why not try to arm someone with as much ammo as you can? If he’s a natural, he’s going to have a good chance anyway. If he’s not he needs all the help he can get. It’s not how good you are at 13 or 14 years old. It’s how good will you be when you’re 17-18 and older.
That said, I do think there are too many times a player is changed when it’s not a necessity. This even happens in pro ball some times. The hitter becomes uncomfortable and his performance can suffer. To me, the very best instructors are those who can make changes and adjustments while allowing the player to be comfortable with those changes. The better the player the quicker these adjustments take place.
IMO, I think there is something to be said about “if it aint broke don’t fix it”! There’s also something to say about “if it works, don’t fix it”!
How well does it work? What if it is broke but it’s also working right now. What if your car is running fine, low on oil? What if your faulty parachute still opens? What if you don’t know how to fight but you can beat up all the little kids in the neighborhood? What if you can’t see very well but still hit over .500 with a bunch of home runs in the little league? Do we send you to the eye doctor or wait till you quit hitting?
I’m not a big believer in changing what’s working, but if I see a young one eyed hitter whose hitting the heck out of youth pitching, I’m going to help him become a two eyed hitter, (Unless he’s only got one eye) rather than watch certain failure when he gets at a higher level. Same goes for other things that sooner or later just can’t work.
There have been hitters who are among the best ever who could be considered untraditional or different. But there are some things all the great ones do similarly and there’s other things that simply will not work at the higher levels. If these are not changed the hitter just accumulates and practices the bad habit over and over. The more established the habit becomes the harder it is to change. Allowing players to do things wrong over and over has probably cut short many future possibilities. If a hitter has excellent “natural” hitting ability but does one of those things that simply won’t work at a higher level, I would try to help him and if he can hit he will still hit. Not talking about “style”, here. The young kid who learns correctly from day I has a nice advantage.
We can always say we are going to wait and find out if and when he fails or we can try to do something about it. We all know that getting by with things when we were young and not preparing for the future has a low success rate. The odds of someone getting a college education or having a chance at professional baseball are minimal. Why not try to arm someone with as much ammo as you can? If he’s a natural, he’s going to have a good chance anyway. If he’s not he needs all the help he can get. It’s not how good you are at 13 or 14 years old. It’s how good will you be when you’re 17-18 and older.
That said, I do think there are too many times a player is changed when it’s not a necessity. This even happens in pro ball some times. The hitter becomes uncomfortable and his performance can suffer. To me, the very best instructors are those who can make changes and adjustments while allowing the player to be comfortable with those changes. The better the player the quicker these adjustments take place.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
That said, I do think there are too many times a player is changed when it’s not a necessity. This even happens in pro ball some times. The hitter becomes uncomfortable and his performance can suffer. To me, the very best instructors are those who can make changes and adjustments while allowing the player to be comfortable with those changes. The better the player the quicker these adjustments take place.
That was what I was trying to point out when I suggested he point him in the right direction with a hitting instructor.
They are dedicated to that goal of teaching hitting and are better prepared to fix a perceived problem.
Not pointing out a specific 'flaw' does not detract from the discussion.
What one person may see as a 'flaw', may be a timing move.
I have never seen it as reasonable to eliminate all 'flaws' or quirks from a successful hitter.
What benefit would a Little League batter gain if he has a major league swing at his level of play?
What adjustments would be there to make when the level of competition increases?
How does a fine tuned swing for a 70 mph pitch adjust to high 80's or 90's?
If raw talent and natural ability is enough to excell, why tamper with anything?
If that stride is okay to nail a 90 mph pitch, a shorter stride will allow that batter to the hit the 100 mph.
Sometimes it isn't 'what' one teaches, but 'when' they teach it.
What one person may see as a 'flaw', may be a timing move.
I have never seen it as reasonable to eliminate all 'flaws' or quirks from a successful hitter.
What benefit would a Little League batter gain if he has a major league swing at his level of play?
What adjustments would be there to make when the level of competition increases?
How does a fine tuned swing for a 70 mph pitch adjust to high 80's or 90's?
If raw talent and natural ability is enough to excell, why tamper with anything?
If that stride is okay to nail a 90 mph pitch, a shorter stride will allow that batter to the hit the 100 mph.
Sometimes it isn't 'what' one teaches, but 'when' they teach it.
quote:The better the player the quicker these adjustments take place.
PG's whole post was excellent.......Easy to see that PG has mucho experience working with players..
The above quote from that post tells me all I need to know about PG's ability to help players.....Along with the fact that he completely understands that ALL hitters on ALL levels struggle with better than average speed pitching when hitting......
I want to say something that is absolutely true that I learned working with hitters.....Anytime you ask a hitter to give something new a chance, you can tell right away who the better hitters will be out of the bunch.......The better ones will not be apprehensive and will aggressively give it a try......They want to know if it will help them, or not.......The others will reluctantly give it somewhat of a weak effort.....
quote:Sometimes it isn't 'what' one teaches, but 'when' they teach it.
Certainly, there is truth to this.......A Little Leaguer faces average speed pitching during league play, no doubt.....However, to reach the World Series he will face some faster than average Little League pitching......What does he do then?....Fan, sit down, go home and say so what???
If a kid is playing, he is not too young to learn as much as he wants to learn.....
I'm not sure we are all talking about the same thing here. I would agree with some of what you say, but...
Thanks, for the lively discussion, it really is fun to talk about baseball and give opinions. BTW, I'm wrong a lot, if that makes you feel any better.
quote:What benefit would a Little League batter gain if he has a major league swing at his level of play?
The best amateur hitters of any age that we see are often the ones with the best most advanced swing.
What adjustments would be there to make when the level of competition increases?
In a perfect world the less adjustment needed the better.
How does a fine tuned swing for a 70 mph pitch adjust to high 80's or 90's?
Major League hitters do this every day. They take BP and then go hit in the game with the same swing.
If raw talent and natural ability is enough to excell, why tamper with anything?
Because it takes more than just raw talent and natural ability to hit MLB pitching. Those with the raw talent just have an advantage and then they often get passed by the guys who have learned how to hit ie. Pete Rose. Not that Rose didn't have natural ability, it's just that others who couldn't do what he did had more.
Thanks, for the lively discussion, it really is fun to talk about baseball and give opinions. BTW, I'm wrong a lot, if that makes you feel any better.
quote:What adjustments would be there to make when the level of competition increases?
Well, understanding what an adjustment is, is the first step, IMO.......
One adjustment that a player needs to learn is, how to be ready to hit the pitcher's fastest fastball and still be able to hit a slower pitch.....
The other adjustment is being ready to hit a pitch location that changes from where you first thought it would be......
IMO, those are the two adjustments that hitters need to learn.....And, the earlier they learn them, the better off they will be.....Hitters spend a career honing the ability to excel at those two adjustments......
Many Coaches and instructors spend a career teaching anything, and everything, but that, unfortunately....
I certainly understand blue and chameleon.I don't post here much.I don't feel qualified to.I do read the post on a regular basis.Tr it is pretty obvious you attack blue and chameleon unprovoked just as you have done in this thread.I did not gain a thing in your attack of them.I can keep a open mind and search for truth or close my mind and not learn anything.I feel like I have learned much from blue and chameleon.I am very glad they take time to post on this hitting forum.This forum would not be half of what it is without them, IMO.
Adjusting to various pitch speeds and pitches at the major league level seems to be eluding me. The few times it does happen it makes Sports Center highlights.
We seem to be comparing high school kids who are so raw that they are reflexively good or a Natural to a hitter with good mechanics and sound baseball instruction.
Good mechanics can be fine tuned by minimizing various aspects of the swing. I wouldn't minimize a successful hitters approach until some aspect of the game changed.(i.e.- high school to college ball or some other advanced level of play.)
I always think back to Ted Williams and how every hitting instructor would want to change his approach.
We seem to be comparing high school kids who are so raw that they are reflexively good or a Natural to a hitter with good mechanics and sound baseball instruction.
Good mechanics can be fine tuned by minimizing various aspects of the swing. I wouldn't minimize a successful hitters approach until some aspect of the game changed.(i.e.- high school to college ball or some other advanced level of play.)
I always think back to Ted Williams and how every hitting instructor would want to change his approach.
for the naysayers
If you go back and read the thread you will see they came at me first---I never mentioned them in the initial post===I posted a question
Hey I am a big boy and I can take as well as give it back but don't tell me I attacked them--read the thread
Am I not allowed to have a retort and defend myself-- and like I say I do not live in cyberspace as they do
If you go back and read the thread you will see they came at me first---I never mentioned them in the initial post===I posted a question
Hey I am a big boy and I can take as well as give it back but don't tell me I attacked them--read the thread
Am I not allowed to have a retort and defend myself-- and like I say I do not live in cyberspace as they do
ITS
It does not bother me as I dont hide as a nondescript cyberspace cowboy as others like to do and change their ID's from time to time---I am who I am, not a wisp of smoke in cyberspace---
Why is it that in todays world so many are afraid to be who they are and go and adopt a cyberspace personality?
Sad commentary on our current state in the USA is it not?
It does not bother me as I dont hide as a nondescript cyberspace cowboy as others like to do and change their ID's from time to time---I am who I am, not a wisp of smoke in cyberspace---
Why is it that in todays world so many are afraid to be who they are and go and adopt a cyberspace personality?
Sad commentary on our current state in the USA is it not?
".........I never worried about the fastball. They couldn't throw it past me, none of them."
Quote by Hank Aaron....
Anyone interested in understanding what hitting adjustments are and how great hitters accomplish them, should look for the reason why Aaron was able to make this statement, IMO.....
Because, great hitting is about being able to make adjustments against great pitching.......When a hitter begins his stride, or gets to the front toe in time to hit above average speed and the pitch is offspeed, he needs to know what to do........
Quote by Hank Aaron....
Anyone interested in understanding what hitting adjustments are and how great hitters accomplish them, should look for the reason why Aaron was able to make this statement, IMO.....
Because, great hitting is about being able to make adjustments against great pitching.......When a hitter begins his stride, or gets to the front toe in time to hit above average speed and the pitch is offspeed, he needs to know what to do........
From the earliest days that a child sees live pitching, they are taught to hit the fastball. It becomes the first thing that is expected to be thrown.
As a child faces more complex pitching, they are taught to watch for the 'spin' on the ball and what that 'spin' will cause the pitch to do.
There is no profundity in Aaron's statement.
It is common sense.
As a child faces more complex pitching, they are taught to watch for the 'spin' on the ball and what that 'spin' will cause the pitch to do.
There is no profundity in Aaron's statement.
It is common sense.
quote:Many Coaches and instructors spend a career teaching anything, and everything, but that, unfortunately....
Just for the purpose of evaluation........
I hope Jerry won't mind that I dug up this old post. His words of wisdom stuck with me.
quote:Originally posted September 05, 2005 by PGStaff:
Much of what we learn comes from personal experiences. For what it’s worth, here is one of my lessens learned. This has to do with the theory of if they are hitting well, leave them alone.
My second son was a three time all state high school player. He holds all the hitting records, batting ave, home runs, rbi, hits, doubles, etc at his former high school. From a production stand point he did everything possible. In college he hit over .400, leading the team in hrs, rbi, etc. He managed all the success without much help from me as I was on the road so much.
Despite all this success, I saw some flaws in his swing. I didn’t change a thing because it was fun with him having so much success. I figured “if it aint broke, don’t try to fix it!” I was afraid I might change things and destroy this success. His high school and college coaches didn’t change a thing either, for much of the same reasons.
Long story short: I was right about the flaws and wrong not to help him correct them. In fact, a crosschecker friend saw him in college and told me after seeing him hit a long home run and a double… “Jerry, I don’t think he will hit unless he makes some adjustments” If it were someone other than my son I would have thought the same thing.
In pro ball he struggled tremendously. He hit with power, but the better ,day in and day out, pitching ended up eating him up. His hitting coaches tried hard to change him, but he had formed some long lasting habits. The things they tried to change were the very same things I had noticed years before. And the exact same things that the crosschecker saw.
Point is: Success at one level does not automatically mean success at the next level. The earlier a young player learns and the more correct technique is practiced, the better the chance for success later on.
TR,
It is what it is. The internet has brought many good things to many people IMO. But - like anything else - it brings bad stuff too.
I dont think it says much about the USA.
As for BlueDog, Chameleon and the multitude of ids they have used over the years, on this site and many others - the newcomers to this site will get swept in by these cyber-Wordsmiths.
I think it is important for newcomers to take in as much information as possible - and find out about the source if the information is important to them:
Here is some information and opinion:
If your son was 12 years old in 2002 - and you came on this site - and you followed these anonymous cyber guys ever changing bs advice - your son would be either - In the hospital for surgery or Utterly confused as to how to hit a baseball.
And most likely both.
Please remember - these are the same cyber entites that recommended young kids taking a baseball bat and swinging it - at max force - into a 300 pound bag of sand.
Newbies will never know that.
But they need to know what they are reading and who is authoring the stuff.
It is a very important lesson for any parent starting out on the baseball journey.
Know your SOURCE - and caveat emptor.
It is what it is. The internet has brought many good things to many people IMO. But - like anything else - it brings bad stuff too.
I dont think it says much about the USA.
As for BlueDog, Chameleon and the multitude of ids they have used over the years, on this site and many others - the newcomers to this site will get swept in by these cyber-Wordsmiths.
I think it is important for newcomers to take in as much information as possible - and find out about the source if the information is important to them:
Here is some information and opinion:
If your son was 12 years old in 2002 - and you came on this site - and you followed these anonymous cyber guys ever changing bs advice - your son would be either - In the hospital for surgery or Utterly confused as to how to hit a baseball.
And most likely both.
Please remember - these are the same cyber entites that recommended young kids taking a baseball bat and swinging it - at max force - into a 300 pound bag of sand.
Newbies will never know that.
But they need to know what they are reading and who is authoring the stuff.
It is a very important lesson for any parent starting out on the baseball journey.
Know your SOURCE - and caveat emptor.
Years ago - we had a topic on this site - and we talked about the importance of the hands/wrists and arms.
I recall bbscout - and I - and a few others - stressing the importance of the hands/wrists and forearms in the swing.
The importance of their strength and the role in any swing.
Here is what we got back from Chameleon and Bluedog - and the various other ids they used at the time.
"You are idiots"
"You are old school"
You are "brainwashed".
And on and on it went.
Nothing but pure cyber psycho babble from 2 anonymous cyber entites that didnt have a clue.
Fast forward to 2007 - and now - these 2 cyber clowns - with new ids - are talking about the importance of the hands in the swing.
Parents - whatever the subject - Know your source.
If you dont - please do not blame anyone but yourself when it goes down the toilet.
I recall bbscout - and I - and a few others - stressing the importance of the hands/wrists and forearms in the swing.
The importance of their strength and the role in any swing.
Here is what we got back from Chameleon and Bluedog - and the various other ids they used at the time.
"You are idiots"
"You are old school"
You are "brainwashed".
And on and on it went.
Nothing but pure cyber psycho babble from 2 anonymous cyber entites that didnt have a clue.
Fast forward to 2007 - and now - these 2 cyber clowns - with new ids - are talking about the importance of the hands in the swing.
Parents - whatever the subject - Know your source.
If you dont - please do not blame anyone but yourself when it goes down the toilet.
Its, counter arguments are fine. Personal attacks serve no purpose and so, can turn this forum from a productive forum to one similar to a flaming board. Personally, I won't allow that. Therefore, please one and all stop the personal attacks and talk hitting. Your advice on "reader beware" is well taken and so, all should think before they attempt to follow any instructions given by people they neither know or know the history of. Please include myself in that although it is not hard to figure out who I am.
FOR ALL - Anytime I, as a moderator, edit or delete any post, I will send you a pm telling you why. There are several moderators on the High School Baseball Web. I would hope that all moderators also contact those who's posts they've edited or deleted. To be sure moderating the hitting form is a major chore probably second only to the Illinois Forum. LET'S ALL TALK HITTING, STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS, AGREE TO DISAGREE AND LET THE READER DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM OR THEIR CHILD.
FOR ALL - Anytime I, as a moderator, edit or delete any post, I will send you a pm telling you why. There are several moderators on the High School Baseball Web. I would hope that all moderators also contact those who's posts they've edited or deleted. To be sure moderating the hitting form is a major chore probably second only to the Illinois Forum. LET'S ALL TALK HITTING, STOP THE PERSONAL ATTACKS, AGREE TO DISAGREE AND LET THE READER DECIDE WHAT IS BEST FOR THEM OR THEIR CHILD.
My above post was not an attack on any poster. It is nothing more or less than a request to discuss hitting and leave the personal attacks out of the discussions.
Darrell
Darrell
CoachB25,
I agree.
I also think it is important for people to know the truth.
And it is important for new websters to understand the whole story - and not just recent pieces of it.
I agree.
I also think it is important for people to know the truth.
And it is important for new websters to understand the whole story - and not just recent pieces of it.
TR has posted a valid topic and one of which I think warrants some good discussion. My take. I never try to change a hitter until I've seen them several times. I'd like to see video so that I can see if what I think I see is really what I see. Do you change them? I think a lot depends upon the kid. Some kids mentally have the ability to know that they are having success and can have more success. Some take the position that if I change, I can't hit anymore. They never give the option to suggest/make successful change. For them, they have to experience failure before they are willing to change. For some, it's too late. For others, the sky's the limit because they always know that there is someone better and so, they work harder, are more coachable and have bigger dreams than the others. JMHO!
After this post, I might consider running for political office!
After this post, I might consider running for political office!
Its, you also seem to never miss an opportunity to attack BlueDog and Chameleon.
OK, so let's say that what they say now is different from what they said a few years ago.
Instead of critiquing the messengers, critique their messege. Isn't their willingness to progress in advancing toward better teaching a good thing. In other words, are they offering better advice than they did in the past? What is your take on their philosophy, as it stands today? Today, not three years ago.
OK, so let's say that what they say now is different from what they said a few years ago.
Instead of critiquing the messengers, critique their messege. Isn't their willingness to progress in advancing toward better teaching a good thing. In other words, are they offering better advice than they did in the past? What is your take on their philosophy, as it stands today? Today, not three years ago.
quote:Originally posted by noreast:
Its, you also seem to never miss an opportunity to attack BlueDog and Chameleon.
OK, so let's say that what they say now is different from what they said a few years ago.
Instead of critiquing the messengers, critique their messege. Isn't their willingness to progress in advancing toward better teaching a good thing. In other words, are they offering better advice than they did in the past? What is your take on their philosophy, as it stands today? Today, not three years ago.
Do you have any other orders you want me to take?
LOL
I think my take on their "philosophy" - or should I say philosphies - is hard to miss. Today - yesterday - 3 years ago and most probably tomorrow.
Using parents - and their kids - as cyber guinea pigs is not - IMO - a good thing.
They speak with authority - ridicule those who dont agree with them - and change thier tune - and their ids - every 6 months or so.
That is ****. IMO.
So, you have nothing to say about things that have repeatedly talked about:
the load/unload sequence (lower body vs upper body), rear side movement (active/passive), what the hands do (torque/rotate), what the barrel does (moving into swing path).
Have they moved closer to teaching better hitting?
What are your thoughts on the above issues, and how do they differ from what BlueDog and Chameleon are saying today?
the load/unload sequence (lower body vs upper body), rear side movement (active/passive), what the hands do (torque/rotate), what the barrel does (moving into swing path).
Have they moved closer to teaching better hitting?
What are your thoughts on the above issues, and how do they differ from what BlueDog and Chameleon are saying today?
Actually - I have lots to say.
Just not to you - and certainly not on cyber command like some sort of trained web dog.
Just not to you - and certainly not on cyber command like some sort of trained web dog.
Command? Not sure what you mean. If anyone asks a question, you take it as them commanding something of you?
This site is predicated upon asking questions to seek advice. My question is you're putting them down, so how does your approach differ?
If you don't answer a basic question pertaining to hitting philosophy while your posting in the thread of hitting, you're not really here in the spirit of this site.
I certainly haven't commanded anything of you. Just seeking alternate ideas on hitting, since you seem to disapprove of ideas others have posted.
But, it seems you are now attacking me. "Just not to you" means I have offended you. You must offend easy.
This site is predicated upon asking questions to seek advice. My question is you're putting them down, so how does your approach differ?
If you don't answer a basic question pertaining to hitting philosophy while your posting in the thread of hitting, you're not really here in the spirit of this site.
I certainly haven't commanded anything of you. Just seeking alternate ideas on hitting, since you seem to disapprove of ideas others have posted.
But, it seems you are now attacking me. "Just not to you" means I have offended you. You must offend easy.
Not offended at all.
Just responding truthfully.
As for your opinion about the spirit of the site - I dont think you truly understand that.
The site has always welcomed a wide variety of opinions. Over the years - my opinion of these two cyber entities has always been extremely negative. Some agree with that opinion and some dont. Thats OK.
You see - these 2 cyber entities have ridiculed some very good people on this site for years. And I dont like that. It is really that simple.
So I will stay on them. Always.
Just responding truthfully.
As for your opinion about the spirit of the site - I dont think you truly understand that.
The site has always welcomed a wide variety of opinions. Over the years - my opinion of these two cyber entities has always been extremely negative. Some agree with that opinion and some dont. Thats OK.
You see - these 2 cyber entities have ridiculed some very good people on this site for years. And I dont like that. It is really that simple.
So I will stay on them. Always.
Well, my point in the post deleted by the moderator was that there are two people who always attack the messengers without discussing the messege. That seems wrong. I haven't read their posts from years ago, but their posts today seem pretty good. If someone feels those posts are hurting players...I'd like to konw what about them is wrong.
But, you seem to respond with a "Just not to you" which just seems a bit weak.
Discuss hitting. That is the spirit of this site (or this thread anyway). I that is not the spirit, as you say I misunderstand, feel free to tell me the spirit of this site. I'm apparently missing it.
But, you seem to respond with a "Just not to you" which just seems a bit weak.
Discuss hitting. That is the spirit of this site (or this thread anyway). I that is not the spirit, as you say I misunderstand, feel free to tell me the spirit of this site. I'm apparently missing it.
Your first problem is that you havent read their posts from over the years.
You should do that IMO.
And I gave you a very specific example - of their cyber expert advice - (smashing a baseball bat into a 300 pound bag of sand) that I thought was horrible and dangerous. You just didnt read it. Or you read it and ignored it.
The spirit of the site to to share ideas - respectfully. To give opinions - respectfully. To argue points respectfully.
And to have fun.
It is not the spirit of the site to ridicule people - or to change ids and make believe you are someone else. It is not the spirit of the site to be disrespectful to people.
They never understood that.
The spirit of the site - IMO- has always been to foster an environment where you could share your experiences - good and bad - without having to endure ridicule from 2 anonymous clowns.
So - I am here for them.
Always.
You should do that IMO.
And I gave you a very specific example - of their cyber expert advice - (smashing a baseball bat into a 300 pound bag of sand) that I thought was horrible and dangerous. You just didnt read it. Or you read it and ignored it.
The spirit of the site to to share ideas - respectfully. To give opinions - respectfully. To argue points respectfully.
And to have fun.
It is not the spirit of the site to ridicule people - or to change ids and make believe you are someone else. It is not the spirit of the site to be disrespectful to people.
They never understood that.
The spirit of the site - IMO- has always been to foster an environment where you could share your experiences - good and bad - without having to endure ridicule from 2 anonymous clowns.
So - I am here for them.
Always.
I did read what you said. You seem to be talking about things and holding a grudge from things they did years ago. What about now?
Back on topic, are they more correct with what they say today than they did three years ago? Do you disagree with what they are now saying? Or, are they still saying things you strongly disagree with? Or, does it not matter what they say, the grudge runs so deep.....it'll never be a productive conversation? If it's the latter, I'll go back to watching the game. lol
Back on topic, are they more correct with what they say today than they did three years ago? Do you disagree with what they are now saying? Or, are they still saying things you strongly disagree with? Or, does it not matter what they say, the grudge runs so deep.....it'll never be a productive conversation? If it's the latter, I'll go back to watching the game. lol
Actually - there was a time a few years ago when Chameleon - (I forget what id he was using at the time) - posted his description of the swing - and more specifically - the use of the core in the swing.
I thought it was one of the best descriptions I ever read - and said so. He responded with an insult. LOL
He was 1 for 290 that year. The other 289 posts were basically insults directed at a huge and varied assortment of posters. I was always impressed with his cyber versatility and his willingness to spread insults to all. He had no favorites. LOL
As for Bluedog - never answered a single question. He usually just came on after Chameleon/Teacherman/Rshard etc...
It would go something like this:
Opinion posted.
Chameleon - would call you stupid if you didnt agree with him.
BlueDog - would then come on and call you really stupid. LOL - Then he would advise every one to listen to Chameleon.
And on and on it would go.
And in a weird sort of way - it was actually fun for awhile.
As for grudges - Yes - I have a cyber grudge against guys that tell young kids to swing a baseball bat into a 300 pound bag of sand. There - I admitted it. LOL
I thought it was one of the best descriptions I ever read - and said so. He responded with an insult. LOL
He was 1 for 290 that year. The other 289 posts were basically insults directed at a huge and varied assortment of posters. I was always impressed with his cyber versatility and his willingness to spread insults to all. He had no favorites. LOL
As for Bluedog - never answered a single question. He usually just came on after Chameleon/Teacherman/Rshard etc...
It would go something like this:
Opinion posted.
Chameleon - would call you stupid if you didnt agree with him.
BlueDog - would then come on and call you really stupid. LOL - Then he would advise every one to listen to Chameleon.
And on and on it would go.
And in a weird sort of way - it was actually fun for awhile.
As for grudges - Yes - I have a cyber grudge against guys that tell young kids to swing a baseball bat into a 300 pound bag of sand. There - I admitted it. LOL
D**n, 13-9 in the seventh.
It's you mention the bag of sand.I have seen you mention this before.What we have at our house is a car tire that I cut a hole thru the tread.Then stuck the tire down on top of a 4x4 post in the ground.I saw this at a town years ago we played in LL.I did not give the sand bag drill a second thought scince we have been doing a different version for years here.
quote:Originally posted by noreast:
D**n, 13-9 in the seventh.
lol-nice
Those who are "anti hitting into a bag drill" PROVE they don't know what a high level swing is all about by taking this stance.
High level swingers torque the handle at "go"....they immediately "launch and spend"....so that the barrel is on auto pilot at contact.
There is no pushing through contact....there is no way to hurt the wrists.
Just like lumberjacks who swing their axe into trees. The energy is launced and spent immediately. After the launch it is guided into the ball/tree.
High level swingers torque the handle at "go"....they immediately "launch and spend"....so that the barrel is on auto pilot at contact.
There is no pushing through contact....there is no way to hurt the wrists.
Just like lumberjacks who swing their axe into trees. The energy is launced and spent immediately. After the launch it is guided into the ball/tree.
Chameleon or whomever you are
Lets leave it at this---you do it your way if you want--others can follow you if they so desire
BUT there is no way I have my kids do what you say
And I like my kids to hear instructions in "english" not cyberspace lingo
Lets leave it at this---you do it your way if you want--others can follow you if they so desire
BUT there is no way I have my kids do what you say
And I like my kids to hear instructions in "english" not cyberspace lingo
As if you've found something new. 
My previous post proved your ignorance.
Let me tell you a secret.....
NO ONE does what you suggest. Because you have never suggested anything....other than see it hit it.
My previous post proved your ignorance.
Let me tell you a secret.....
NO ONE does what you suggest. Because you have never suggested anything....other than see it hit it.
Chameleon, keep up the good advice......We need it on here.....
And the TWIN CYBERSPACE BROTHER has just shown up
Cameleon lost all credability when he cut up Nick Weglarz swing. 23 HRs hitting 276 in A ball.
I had to look back at the original question... here's my take
(1) Hitting is a process, of course you change the hitter.
(2) Changing mechanics changes timing. If you "mess" with a hitter that is hitting, he probably will stop hitting, at least for a time.
(3) If you want your kid to be good at Little League and he is hitting in Little League, don't change him. If you want your kid to have a chance to play at the highest level, you better help the kid evolve.
(4) You need to choose when to work on mechanics and not everything at once. I used to pick the fall for major adjustments, but would pick only one or two things to work on.
(1) Hitting is a process, of course you change the hitter.
(2) Changing mechanics changes timing. If you "mess" with a hitter that is hitting, he probably will stop hitting, at least for a time.
(3) If you want your kid to be good at Little League and he is hitting in Little League, don't change him. If you want your kid to have a chance to play at the highest level, you better help the kid evolve.
(4) You need to choose when to work on mechanics and not everything at once. I used to pick the fall for major adjustments, but would pick only one or two things to work on.
quote:Originally posted by baseballpapa:
I had to look back at the original question... here's my take
(1) Hitting is a process, of course you change the hitter.
(2) Changing mechanics changes timing. If you "mess" with a hitter that is hitting, he probably will stop hitting, at least for a time.
(3) If you want your kid to be good at Little League and he is hitting in Little League, don't change him. If you want your kid to have a chance to play at the highest level, you better help the kid evolve.
(4) You need to choose when to work on mechanics and not everything at once. I used to pick the fall for major adjustments, but would pick only one or two things to work on.
Agree 100% and number 4 is the kicker! With most kids playing only one sport these days, the Fall and or Winter is a perfect time to make major changes in someone's swing if they are already having success at what they are already doing. If they aren't, anytime is good. IMO
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Those who are "anti hitting into a bag drill" PROVE they don't know what a high level swing is all about by taking this stance.
High level swingers torque the handle at "go"....they immediately "launch and spend"....so that the barrel is on auto pilot at contact.
There is no pushing through contact....there is no way to hurt the wrists.
Just like lumberjacks who swing their axe into trees. The energy is launced and spent immediately. After the launch it is guided into the ball/tree.
So, you are saying you can throw a bat at a ball on a tee and hit it out of a MLB park? Could you throw it at a 95+ pitched ball and hit it out too?
Even if I took what you say as fact concerning the swing (which I don't), the lumberjack analogy is not true. When swinging an ax (and I believe when swinging a baseball bat) the momentum is carried throughout the swing and to just after contact. If it was an immediate and instantaneous release at go it would fade at contact. Just like a dragster taking off at the starting line or an airplane trying to take-off after first firing the engines or the space shuttle using only enough fuel to ignite the initial blast. Do you think it would ever leave the ground?
The ax analogy is proper.
In both cases the least amount of effort should be used to propel the weighted end at the greatest speed.
Once that weight is in motion, it will continue in motion until acted upon by another force. The wrists are not jarred because they are relaxed and holding the fulcrum at the point of least movement.
Hitting the ball does not stop the bat, gravity and the body does.
One would have to use an ax properly to get a full understanding of the mechanics involved.
After paying the prices charged for bats today, I would never give this suggestion to a child or even myself. Further, a child, not understanding the mechanics involved, could be injured.
In both cases the least amount of effort should be used to propel the weighted end at the greatest speed.
Once that weight is in motion, it will continue in motion until acted upon by another force. The wrists are not jarred because they are relaxed and holding the fulcrum at the point of least movement.
Hitting the ball does not stop the bat, gravity and the body does.
One would have to use an ax properly to get a full understanding of the mechanics involved.
After paying the prices charged for bats today, I would never give this suggestion to a child or even myself. Further, a child, not understanding the mechanics involved, could be injured.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
The ax analogy is proper.
In both cases the least amount of effort should be used to propel the weighted end at the greatest speed.
Once that weight is in motion, it will continue in motion until acted upon by another force. The wrists are not jarred because they are relaxed and holding the fulcrum at the point of least movement.
Hitting the ball does not stop the bat, gravity and the body does.
One would have to use an ax properly to get a full understanding of the mechanics involved.
After paying the prices charged for bats today, I would never give this suggestion to a child or even myself. Further, a child, not understanding the mechanics involved, could be injured.
Even if you are swinging an axe from overhead to near your feet you will still take a bigger bite out of the wood if you continue the swing to contact. If as you say, all you need to do is get the axe started in motion, only the weight of the axe head is making the chop. Yes it can be done that way, but you are going to freeze to death in Winter because the fire is going out before you get another log on the fire.
As far as hitting a moving object or taking any to objects toward each other, the object with acceleration through contact will win. If this was not true, one would go in one direction and the other would go in the other direction. This is an easy experiment.
The bat should be accelerating at contact, not decelerating.
quote:Originally posted by Quincy:
Once that weight is in motion, it will continue in motion until acted upon by another force. The wrists are not jarred because they are relaxed and holding the fulcrum at the point of least movement.
The wrists are not jarred because the energy is being released from the barrel, not the handle and is being absorbed by the sand. I use a tire instead. You could be injured if you were too close to the object you were hitting if it was a solid object and your wrists were lined up wrong.
To get the best result from both a bat or an ax, we have to swing through contact, not to contact.
The ax head is designed to make the chop. Once the ax head is in motion, its weight and shape will make the most effective chop if contact is proper.
If you were to do this experiment, you would find that the object with the greater weight and mass would have the greater effect on the other object in collision.
At contact, the bat should be at the point of greatest accelleration, not still accellerating.
In the sand bag post, the wrists would be hurt if still accellerating and suddenly stopped.
The ax head is designed to make the chop. Once the ax head is in motion, its weight and shape will make the most effective chop if contact is proper.
If you were to do this experiment, you would find that the object with the greater weight and mass would have the greater effect on the other object in collision.
At contact, the bat should be at the point of greatest accelleration, not still accellerating.
In the sand bag post, the wrists would be hurt if still accellerating and suddenly stopped.
I guess I'm ignorant as to how hitting these objects improves your swing. I understand the various programs of overload and underload which deals with degrees of weight in ounces. I understand progressive resistance ie. bungee or pulley. I guess I've never hit a ball and felt so much resistance that it stopped my bat. Since I admit my ignorance, I can't take a stand one way or the other as to the efficiency of this exercise. I believe that when we're swinging, we're hitting most of our balls from a front toss situation and getting a lot of reps in that way. No one has ever thrown a tire at one of my kids. (...and if they had and were big enough to do it, I'd be scared!)
Just a quick reply to the original question as I think it was a very valid one. I think you have to be very careful when fixing a flaw when a hitter is having success. You have to ask, "What is the flaw and how will it truly affect the swing?" If I feel a hitter has a true flaw that makes him susceptible to a certain pitch, I will throw that pitch to him in batting practice and see how he handles it. He may be able to handle it fine or it will help him understand that we need to adjust. I do not think it is good practice to change a hitter because they are not kinesthetically pleasing to one's eye or they have a different swing than you would have them use. See what they do well, anticipate and explore weaknesses, and improve from there but don't change just because you "think" something, as often our ideas change and improve as we mature and learn more as coaches
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
I guess I'm ignorant as to how hitting these objects improves your swing. I understand the various programs of overload and underload which deals with degrees of weight in ounces. I understand progressive resistance ie. bungee or pulley. I guess I've never hit a ball and felt so much resistance that it stopped my bat. Since I admit my ignorance, I can't take a stand one way or the other as to the efficiency of this exercise. I believe that when we're swinging, we're hitting most of our balls from a front toss situation and getting a lot of reps in that way. No one has ever thrown a tire at one of my kids. (...and if they had and were big enough to do it, I'd be scared!)
Coach,
I can only speak to the reason I use the tire in my teaching. It is used by me to let a player feel the difference from one ball position to another as well as letting them feel and hear the difference from their current swing to after the changes I make in their swing. It is only used in the first and maybe the second lesson depending on the student.
The reason I use this tool instead of letting them hit balls off of a tee or using soft toss is because when you make changes to a swing it usually causes timing issues and I want them to believe in the swing before they have to concentrate on hitting the ball.
