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Question regarding D1 Baseball Changes effective 8/1/08

M Michael'sDad100+ posts
I understand the following changes have been adopted per the following NCAA summary although a couple of issues are being looked at for revision, "The package from the Baseball Academic Enhancement Working Group was passed as emergency legislation, effective August 1, 2008. The legislation includes a change in the financial aid structure for baseball student-athletes and requires academic certification for those student-athletes in the fall term to be eligible to participate in the spring term. The legislation also requires a year in residence before transfer student-athletes can compete and directs the Committee on Academic Performance to implement further playing and practice season penalties on baseball teams that do not meet minimum Academic Progress Rate standards.
The working group originally recommended the financial aid model of 11.7 equivalencies be retained while limiting counters to 27 and requiring aid packages include at least 25 percent athletics aid. The initial proposal also capped the regular-season squad size at 35 student-athletes.
The current proposal retains the financial aid model of 11.7 equivalencies and limits counters to 30 in 2008-09 and 27 in 2009-10 and thereafter and caps the regular-season squad size at 35.
The original proposal required a 33 percent minimum of athletics aid and was adopted from the working group recommendations. The revised version requires at least 25 percent of a baseball student-athlete’s financial aid package to be athletics aid."

I have looked through the NCAA site and I cann't find anywhere if the revised version has now been adopted and if this impacts athletes currently receiving financial aid the same way as incoming recruits. In short does a current roster player in 07-08 either receive a minimum of 25%/33% or receive nothing? Can anyone advise?
Last edited {1}
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TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
My understanding is that the new rules on scholarship affected those entering when the new rules go into effect, not those already on the roster.

I thought that 25% can be a combination of athletic aid and scholarhip dollars awarded through academic excellence. If this is wrong this was the info given to me and maybe someone can find the exact amounts in the rules. I am not sure I can go by info given as it was confusing to so many at the time.

Many coaches did however adjust scholarships last year for incoming players.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
TPM, if you have a source to the contrary I'll stand corrected, but my understanding was that existing players are not grandfathered. Since the scholarship deals are year-to-year anyway, I think the 25% minimum is effective for players who were already there as well.

So, if you have been getting 15-20%, you'd better hope the coach thinks you're worth 25%, or you could end up with nothing.

And if you do get nothing, good luck with transferring, because if you transfer now, you'll have to sit out a year before you can play again.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
Midlo,
You are correct, year to year and the rule goes into effect next fall, with full compliance in 2009/10 (27).
However most players I know who are playing (sophmore and up) had no changes up or down in their scholarships.

We have players who are in school now, maybe their folks can shed some light here.

I did make a phone call awaiting an answer.
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Looks like the minimum scholarship is only for students entering in 2008 or later:

15.5.4.1 Minimum Equivalency Value. Effective Date: Aug 01, 2008
An institution shall provide each counter athletically related and other countable financial aid that is equal to or greater than 25 percent of an equivalency. (Adopted: 4/26/07 effective 8/1/08 for student-athletes who initially enroll full time at any four-year collegiate institution on or after August 1, 2008, Revised: 8/9/07)

By the way, this is an example of a rule which is different than the text in the D1 manual (which says 33%). The NCAA only issues the manuals once per year. But you can find the latest version (and proposals) of any rule by searching the LSDBi Database on the Rules and Bylaws page. To find this one I searched on minimum equivalency. The related rule which exempts e.g. Ivys which don't provide athletic scholarships doesn't show up using equivalency. Instead I needed to use the plural form equivalencies. Google it ain't!
H HiHardHeat1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by fanofgame:
My sons academic scholarship was separate from the percent he got athletically. I think the athletic has to be 25%. at least was in his case.

The coaches were arguing for (and I believe they got) the decision that the 25% minimum is for any monies awarded, not just the athletic scholarship.

So from all sources of awards, the amount awarded must be at least 25%, but the total of all athletic scholarships still cannot exceed the 11.7 cap.

It will make it more difficult for the D1's who don't award academic monies until the spring for incoming freshmen to put together a package in the fall for the NLI that meets the guidelines. I imagine that there will be some unusual wording in some of the new NLI's starting this fall in those cases.

Worst case: If you are getting your 25% as a combo of academic and baseball money, but baseball travel, games and competition in the spring drives your GPA below the level where you can keep your academic money the next year, then will the school be forced to increase your athletic aid? Or cancel it too? What if they are already at the cap?

None of this will be decided until it happens the first time and they are forced to figure it out. This new system has some real holes in it.
obradyobrady500+ posts
It's going to be interesting to see how things change. I was watching the SC game last weekend and the announcers stated that one of the players, who has turned into a team leader and top producer, is only receiving minimal money. They asked coach about it and he said that in today’s world, he'd never even been offered.
M micdsguy1,000+ posts
quote:
good luck with transferring, because if you transfer now, you'll have to sit out a year before you can play again.


What if a player transfers into a D-1 after completing a full 2 years at a JUCO? Surely he wouldn't have to sit out a year at the D-1.

In other words: Is going from a juco to a D-1 considered to be a transfer under this new rule?
Last edited by micdsguy
H HiHardHeat1,000+ posts
obtw: there may be a hole in the rules that will only last this year.

Since the rules take affect 8/1, then, you could possibly transfer and actually ENROLL in summer school at the new College/University. The language of the legislation pertains to the school you are enrolled at WHEN the rules go into effect.

Of course, that would also imply that your current coach/AD grant you your release. Under the new rules, releases don't have to be granted anymore, since all transfers will have to sit.

Just a quirk in the dates. I wouldn't irritate a coach by trying to pull it off. It may backfire, particularly if you can't get your release, have to sit a year anyway and lose summer ball while attending college. And you'd have to pay for the summer classes too .... High risk, possibly little reward.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
3Finger,

If the allowance for scholarships under 25% is grandfathered for players already there, does the grandfathering also apply to the transfer rule? Or, are existing students going to have to sit out a year if they transfer?

My understanding was that all this took effect on everyone immediately, but I stand corrected on the % issue, so I'm wondering if I have it wrong on the transfer rule also.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
3Finger,

If the allowance for scholarships under 25% is grandfathered for players already there, does the grandfathering also apply to the transfer rule? Or, are existing students going to have to sit out a year if they transfer?

My understanding was that all this took effect on everyone immediately, but I stand corrected on the % issue, so I'm wondering if I have it wrong on the transfer rule also.


MD,
The rule states anyone who initially enrolls full time at a 4 year institution, so I am not sure if that would apply to transfers.

However, if you were a coach, would you award 25% or more to anyone who has to sit? Would seem to me, most D1 to D1 transfers will become "walk ons".
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Midlo:
I think you are asking if transfers from a 4 year school into D1 are grandfathered into the one-time exception. They are not, as you had already believed.

The following Bylaw 14.5.5.2.10 was adopted at the April 26, 2007, Board of Directors meeting, effective August 1, 2008.
14.5.5.2.10 One-Time Transfer Exception. The student transfers to the certifying institution from another four-year collegiate institution, and all of the following conditions are met...:
(a) The student is a participant in a sport other than baseball, .......
revised 4/27/07 effective 8/1/08 applicable to student-athletes who transfer on or after August 1, 2008)
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by HiHardHeat:

The coaches were arguing for (and I believe they got) the decision that the 25% minimum is for any monies awarded, not just the athletic scholarship.

The rule quoted in the 6th post of this thread says: An institution shall provide each counter athletically related and other countable financial aid that is equal to or greater than 25 percent of an equivalency.

So I believe that the coaches lost the argument, and non-countable (e.g. academic money for students with 3.5 GPA or above) aid doesn't count towards the 25%. If that interpretation is correct, then the concern about a player who no longer qualifies for the academic aid exception is likely moot. I think the problem would only arise if a player had academic money which didn't qualify as non-countable by NCAA rules, but which did have GPA or other restrictions. I believe that academic money is generally granted annually, and if so, there still wouldn't be an institutional problem. On the other hand, I think the player would have to either lose all aid or get bumped up to 25% athletic aid.
Last edited by 3FingeredGlove
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by HiHardHeat:
Sitting out only matters when you transfer within D1 ball.
If a Juco or D2 guy transfers TO a D1, then no sitting.


A player has to sit out one year when transferring to D1 from any 4 year college, even a NAIA college. See Rule 14.5.5 in the D1 manual.
The rules are grouped by 4-4, 2-4, and 4-2-4 transfers, and not by division.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
TPM,

No, I would not, but some do.

The silver lining of the limited scholarships is that while coaches in other sports can promise you the moon with no intent to deliver, in baseball, in the end they have to put their money where their mouth is. So you get a definitive indication of where you really stack up in the coach's eyes.

But there are a few programs with reputations for recruiting far more players than they have need for, then letting them compete in practice for playing time. Nothing wrong with that, except that they probably give our 50% of their budget to incoming freshmen every year -- then cut their %'s at year's end and let those who want to leave, leave.

Except now their ability to leave is severely curtailed.

So I do think you'll see some kids get 25% initially, sit the bench, get their money cut (now to zero), and be left wondering if they should take the hit on sitting out a year in order to find a better situation.

I hope my crystal ball is wrong, but let's face it, not everyone lives up to the highest standards of ethics out there.
UI Up in the Stands10+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by HiHardHeat:
Sitting out only matters when you transfer within D1 ball.
If a Juco or D2 guy transfers TO a D1, then no sitting.



A player has to sit out one year when transferring to D1 from any 4 year college, even a NAIA college. See Rule 14.5.5 in the D1 manual.
The rules are grouped by 4-4, 2-4, and 4-2-4 transfers, and not by division.



I did a search on D1 to D2 transfers, and found this discussion from several months ago. There were 2 different views expressed. One said players can transfer from D1 to D2 without sitting out a year, the other said any transfer from a 4 yr to a 4 yr NCAA program requires the player to sit a year.

Does anyone have further information on this topic? Thanks!
F 3FingeredGlove1,000+ posts
Well, I presented one of the views, but I'm reasonably sure the following is correct.

NCAA is divided into D1, D2, and D3. When a player transfers, the rules applicable to the transfer are those of the division he transfers into, and not the rules of the one he is leaving. Each division has its own rules, and these are listed in Division Manuals. The NCAA also provides a Transfer Guide, which attempts to explain and provide examples for all three divisions.

The D1 rules are the most restrictive, and are organized on the basis of transfers from a 2 year college to D1 (Article 14.5.4), a 4 year college to D1 (14.5.5), and four to two to D1 (14.5.6). You can read about them in the D1 manual, or the Transfer Guide.

For transfers into D1, the rule treats transfers from a 4 year D1, D2, D3, NAIA, or no affiliation at all, just the same. With a few rare exceptions, a transferring baseball player is ineligible for competition until he has completed one academic year of residency at the D1.

D2 generally allows a one-time exception to the one year rule. D3 is even more lenient. Neither of the views you quoted above were intended to imply that any 4 to 4 transfer would need to sit a year.

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