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TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:

There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out. 

Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.  

 

 

True and I knew that - my bad. 

As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow. 

roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:

There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out. 

Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.  

 

 

True and I knew that - my bad. 

As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow

Not to quibble too much, Root, but the two underlined parts are what people worry about -- sure, it "works" in that the NCAA rules are adhered to, and they have a great team . . . but the first underlined part is I think what most people mean when they talk about over-recruiting.

2019Dad posted:
roothog66 posted:
TPM posted:
roothog66 posted:

There were also five or six juniors who signed after the draft and several players will transfer out because of a lack of playing time and there will be a handful of injuries and players who will red shirt. The numbers always seem to work out. 

Red shirt players are included in the 35 man roster.  

 

 

True and I knew that - my bad. 

As to Arkansas, you see a LOT of transfers out every year and, if you look at there signing classes, they are almost all on the roster their freshman years PLUS a decent number of JC transfers into the program that aren't even accounted for in the above numbers. They always seem to make it work somehow

Not to quibble too much, Root, but the two underlined parts are what people worry about -- sure, it "works" in that the NCAA rules are adhered to, and they have a great team . . . but the first underlined part is I think what most people mean when they talk about over-recruiting.

Sure, but if you sign onto a P5 school or even a very good mid-major and DON'T realize that you are in heavy competition for playing time, then you either haven't done your homework or your ego is a big problem. I guess the question is, do the programs like Arkansas or Vandy over-recruit with the idea that they are going to push guys out or do they over-recruit because they know they will lose guys to transfer who aren't getting the PT they'd like?

TPM posted:
GaryMe posted:

Sometimes admission is tougher at state schools for in-state kids...schools like those out of state tuition dollars.

This is not correct.  Can you show supporting information on your statement?

Prove it's wrong before saying it is. I posit that a fair number of qualified students who would be paying in-state rate are not admitted to state schools in the name of "diversity," which means that they really like to bring students in from out of state for the increased revenue and being able to say they have a student body that is represented by kids from X number of states, countries, etc. Not that those students aren't qualified for admission, I'm just saying you're a fool if you don't think the financial aspect of it doesn't play a factor in the overall make up of not only the student body, but the funding of state schools in general.

 

If it didn't matter, why would they charge a different tuition rate for kids who live out of state or country?

Vandy is in a difficult spot.  5 sr's want to return for their sr season.  3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up.   They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in.  I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt  so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35  . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.

bacdorslider posted:

Vandy is in a difficult spot.  5 sr's want to return for their sr season.  3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up.   They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in.  I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt  so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35  . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.

Out with the old...in with the new. If you weren't playing prior to this fall and they have new blood coming in, the writing is on the wall unless you start doing something they haven't seen in the past years.

bacdorslider posted:

Vandy is in a difficult spot.  5 sr's want to return for their sr season.  3-4 they thought might go in the draft showed up.   They started out with 43, after the draftees left and the freshman came in.  I understand 1 transferred and one may have a medical redshirt  so that number goes to 42..... a far cry from 35  . I guess the fall will decide who stays and who goes.

I don't think that Vandy is a in a difficult spot, or Arkansas, or any other school.  It's the guys who are in danger of not making the team who are in the difficult spot.

bacdorslider posted:

Well if you have 41-42 and you have to get to 35  that's not good for a jr. - sr. that cannot or did not contribute.

and perhaps they didn't contribute because they were behind someone who was raking. Team batting average was .269 and you had guys batting below the Mendoza line getting 161 ABs...so who knows what the criteria is at Vandy

Curious because I do not know the answer. 

What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship? 

A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.

The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster. 

How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore. 

 

PABaseball posted:

Curious because I do not know the answer. 

What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship? 

A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.

The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster. 

How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore. 

 

That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.

 

GaryMe posted:
PABaseball posted:

Curious because I do not know the answer. 

What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship? 

A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.

The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster. 

How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore. 

 

That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.

 

I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.

Chico Escuela posted:
GaryMe posted:
PABaseball posted:

Curious because I do not know the answer. 

What happens if all these kids who signed their NLI show up in the fall. The returning juniors and seniors, who were cut, choose to remain at the school without baseball, but still on their scholarship? 

A senior getting cut from a team might not want to transfer at that point. Friends, classes, housing, etc.

The players would still count against the 11.7 and the 35 man roster. 

How does their tuition get paid for and how do coaches go about this? I would assume this is very rare but you can't tell kids they can't attend school there anymore. 

 

That is a great question, and I would love to see what happens when a senior returns to a P5 school and isn't exactly welcomed back by the team, and they are obligated to pay scholarship $$$ to him. Would one of those new NLI guys get cut? That would really be an interesting scenario.

 

I’m thinking the senior gets assigned to run foul poles all practice, every practice, is ordered to report for special 5 am workouts, and that coaches will be on the lookout for the slightest rule infractions as an excuse to kick him off the team.

And that behavior probably stops or coach is likely fired after the kid and his family threaten to report him to the NCAA and sue him for harassment. That would never fly, IMO. It wasn't the kid's idea to promise a 4-year guaranteed scholarship. It was the school/coach.

And do you really think a coach would take it out on another human being with corporal punishment because he couldn't do basic math and project the probability of over committing his funds? If so, that is the saddest thing I've heard all day.

FriarFred posted:

And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships.  I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.  

Agreed

FriarFred posted:

And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships.  I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.  

I “think” over committing started when scholarships weren’t guaranteed for four years. Coaches could make the numbers work based on who they wouldn’t keep.

I also “think” some schools have certain advantages with endowments, needs-based aid, common merit money, etc. so they don’t always have to tap into the money allocated specifically for baseball. 

Lastly, the recent trend, until this year, was that top ten round draft picks were signing at a very high clip so I do think that schools sometimes over commit expecting/hoping that they will lose a few kids to the draft. 

Last edited by hshuler
hshuler posted:
FriarFred posted:

And this is why i dont think that all "signees" actually sign a binding NLI as I wouldnt think you could actually over commit the number of available scholarships.  I think many kids "commit/sign" to walk on with no athletic money and thus no actual NLI or financial arrangement between player and school.  

I “think” over committing started when scholarships weren’t guaranteed for four years. Coaches could make the numbers work based on who they wouldn’t keep.

I also “think” some schools have certain advantages with endowments, needs-based aid, common merit money, etc. so they don’t always have to tap into the money allocated specifically for baseball. 

Lastly, the recent trend, until this year, was that top ten round draft picks were signing at a very high clip so I do think that schools sometimes over commit expecting/hoping that they will lose a few kids to the draft. 

Hshuler, if they aren't using athletic aid, then an NLI is not in play, right? So the fact that some schools have larger endowments, need-based aid and common merit money doesn't factor in to the number of kids that Arkansas claimed they signed to NLIs.

If they claimed to sign 20 guys to NLIs, then they are saying they are committing a minimum of 5 complete scholarships (assuming all 20 get the minimum 25%) for those players, and since it's a power 5 they are making that commitment for 4-years. Assuming full funding, that leaves 6.7 scholarships to divvy up among the remaining 7 scholarship eligible players on the roster (again, assuming minimum offers to newbies). If you have 7 returners who are getting full rides, them some happy players. I can see where this might actually be a good strategy to use the scholarships in this manner, and then use the incentive of increasing to a full ride in years 2 and beyond based on performance.

I can't imagine any school WANTS their signees to be lost to the draft, so you completely lost me there. Unless you are referring to currently rostered guys

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