Skip to main content

quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?
I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?


So, if the back elbow is coming down and lead elbow is working up and the shoulders are tilting, there will not be pressure felt in the hands? In which direction is this force being applied?
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?
I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?


No, the hinge angle is not changing but I do not look for that to much.
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

Ok. So it is the elbow? Or the shoulder?

So you are saying the bottom pushes the bat handle back toward the back shoulder (catcher)?


NO, I did not say the lead/bottom pushes the handle back toward the catcher. I said I do not think this happens. What I said was if you do it this way, you will load the lead shoulder. We do not want to load the lead shoulder.

What I said I believe happens is the top hand is in control of the tip. Back elbow raising will tip the barrel. There are other variations but this is what I prefer.
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?


The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?


About 49 sec mark.
Which video?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4
Ok thanks. We probably won't agree, but I don't think that has anything to do with tipping the bat toward the pitcher. What I mean is, telling someone to tip the bat is not going to make happen what he is doing. It is a result, not an action.
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?
I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?


quote:
So, if the back elbow is coming down and lead elbow is working up and the shoulders are tilting, there will not be pressure felt in the hands? In which direction is this force being applied?
I never noticed any, but that doesn't mean there isn't. Isn't there a difference between feeling pressure and actively doing something with the hands? Is the purpose to resist the pressure and maintain the hinge angle (or something else)?
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?
I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?


No, the hinge angle is not changing but I do not look for that to much.
Ok, so we agree on that. Now if you're saying the hands are doing something to maintain the hinge angle and we are including wrists in "hands" I may be following you.
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by HYP:
IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

Ok. So it is the elbow? Or the shoulder?

So you are saying the bottom pushes the bat handle back toward the back shoulder (catcher)?


NO, I did not say the lead/bottom pushes the handle back toward the catcher. I said I do not think this happens. What I said was if you do it this way, you will load the lead shoulder. We do not want to load the lead shoulder.

What I said I believe happens is the top hand is in control of the tip. Back elbow raising will tip the barrel. There are other variations but this is what I prefer.
I think we do want to load the lead shoulder, in fact we have spent the last few months working on just that - among other things. I think we need to load the front shoulder by stretching it across the upper chest above the numbers while the back shoulder loads the other way. Seen from the rear, the rear shoulder blade moves toward the spine while the front one moves away from it. I'm not getting into abduction and adduction. Easiest way I know to say it.

So you are saying the back elbow raises (tips) it and the top hand controls how much? I agree that if you just raise the back elbow and depending on how far, the barrel may incline forward.
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?


The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.

LF,
I think I understand what you are saying, but FEELING it in the hands and DOING it with the hands are two entirely different things. Don't you agree?
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?


The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.

LF,
I think I understand what you are saying, but FEELING it in the hands and DOING it with the hands are two entirely different things. Don't you agree?


Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
... I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.


**Sidenote**
OK, Low, you have to see the comical irony in what you just said. I know alot of baseball folks and I don't know anyone who likes to talk about how to hit the ball in more detail and with more frequency than you do.
When someone starts going off on an extended tangent about the mechanics of hitting a ball, guess who I think of first.

I don't mean that as a bad thing. There are aspects of baseball that I can talk about all day as well (as evident by 600+ posts Smile). Just funny.

i.e. - you just capped off your 11th post in this thread with a leading question about another aspect of hitting (stride).
Last edited by cabbagedad
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?

How do the hands add power to the swing? Please use plain English as we have all been doing so far.

How do you know he says that? In what context? What do others say? I'm not here to take a side, I'm here to learn. I don't hate any of them. I have watched some video from most of them and I am smart enough to know they aren't giving away the store for free and a month in this "system" or that is not going to change things to any decent degree. This is a long and arduous process with no easy fixes. Have you ever worked with him and heard him say that for yourself? Who have you worked with and what did they say about it?

How do the forearms and wrists provide power? What do we need to make them do in order to do that?

Being able to explain to others what to do is part and parcel of being a coach. What do you do when they don't "feel" the same thing you do? How do you get an 8 yo to accurately describe what he is feeling and how do you describe to him what he should feel? What should I feel in my hands when I do this "tip and rip"? (Which I have been doing in my own practice since starting this thread and reading your explanations BTW.)

I am not bickering, I simply disagree with much of what you say because I don't think you truly understand what is happening to make you feel what you feel. In other words I disagree with you on some things. I don't hate you. I also don't like mantras and bumper sticker slogans that imply universal solutions. for example: "If you would just "tip and rip" all your problems will be solved. I don't like cookie cutters nor is every player cut out to be Barry Bonds. I rarely if ever read any discussion about what they gave up to get what they have. And there's always a trade off. For example, I think Pujols is a great hitter. he will probably end up being one of the greatest RH hitters of all time. Definitely 1st vote HOF. helluva ball player all around. he also hits into a lot of DPs, inning killers. Trade off.

I talked to two college A coaches in the last week. Just happened to walk into the cage where we were working. they struck up conversations with the kid - after watching him swing. Asked him several questions. Not one of them asked him how many HRs he's hit. They asked about his grades, his defense and his speed. In that order. The things that make you go "Mmmmm".

As for the forward by coiling, etc. Yes, in many (most) [almost all] good hitters there is forward by turning. Sit and turn. Are there precautions? Precautions that should be mentioned when giving instructions to fathers trying to learn to help and spend time with their sons? I think so. Can you think of any directly related to "forward by coiling"? Have you added the precautions (if any) when giving your advice?

What advice would you give a HS player that hit .568 with 23 SB, 4Ks, 7 HBP and 12 BB in 25 games?

I thank you for your civil discussion and patience. It has been a pleasure to discuss this with you and I hope we can continue in the future.

I would suggest you look back through your posts in this thread for inconsistencies in order to improve the organization of your philosophy. "Feel" isn't enough when you are helping others. "Why?" is a question oft asked and must be answered to and by the coach. Read up on Trevor Bauer to get a "feel" for how important this is becoming to today's players.
There are a few that alot of young hitters do, if I had to pick one it would be landing way too high on their toe on foot strike with their front foot. Most of these hitters try to swing while their front foot toe is still about the only thing that is touching the ground. I think it happens because they are told to land softly with their front foot or they see a toe tap. This causes them to be off balance at times back and at times forwards. It also causes their front foot to open up too much, which cause the entire front side to open up.

The other fault or flaw would be always throwing their hands out for an outside pitch which causes them to use way too much top hand on outside pitches, and conversely pulling their hands in too much on an inside pitch causing themselves to be jammed. Both are because the player does not have a consistent hand path.
I see it up into some HS hitters and as young as players that have just started playing. More in the younger players however and in the not so successful HS aged players. Young players could have some of those flaws at an early age and have some limited success because the pitching has not developed. The better the pitching becomes and balls start to curve, cut, drop the more obvious this problem becomes.
quote:
Originally posted by cabbagedad:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
... I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.


**Sidenote**
OK, Low, you have to see the comical irony in what you just said. I know alot of baseball folks and I don't know anyone who likes to talk about how to hit the ball in more detail and with more frequency than you do.
When someone starts going off on an extended tangent about the mechanics of hitting a ball, guess who I think of first.

I don't mean that as a bad thing. There are aspects of baseball that I can talk about all day as well (as evident by 600+ posts Smile). Just funny.

i.e. - you just capped off your 11th post in this thread with a leading question about another aspect of hitting (stride).


I do like to talk about it! It's a fact Smile

I try to stay away from science because I want everyone to try to understand what I'm saying. The idea of "hitting the ball" is totally divorced from "What anatomical actions happen to allow the swing?" in my opinion.
Last edited by Low Finish
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?

How do the hands add power to the swing? Please use plain English as we have all been doing so far.

How do you know he says that? In what context? What do others say? I'm not here to take a side, I'm here to learn. I don't hate any of them. I have watched some video from most of them and I am smart enough to know they aren't giving away the store for free and a month in this "system" or that is not going to change things to any decent degree. This is a long and arduous process with no easy fixes. Have you ever worked with him and heard him say that for yourself? Who have you worked with and what did they say about it?

How do the forearms and wrists provide power? What do we need to make them do in order to do that?

Being able to explain to others what to do is part and parcel of being a coach. What do you do when they don't "feel" the same thing you do? How do you get an 8 yo to accurately describe what he is feeling and how do you describe to him what he should feel? What should I feel in my hands when I do this "tip and rip"? (Which I have been doing in my own practice since starting this thread and reading your explanations BTW.)

I am not bickering, I simply disagree with much of what you say because I don't think you truly understand what is happening to make you feel what you feel. In other words I disagree with you on some things. I don't hate you. I also don't like mantras and bumper sticker slogans that imply universal solutions. for example: "If you would just "tip and rip" all your problems will be solved. I don't like cookie cutters nor is every player cut out to be Barry Bonds. I rarely if ever read any discussion about what they gave up to get what they have. And there's always a trade off. For example, I think Pujols is a great hitter. he will probably end up being one of the greatest RH hitters of all time. Definitely 1st vote HOF. helluva ball player all around. he also hits into a lot of DPs, inning killers. Trade off.

I talked to two college A coaches in the last week. Just happened to walk into the cage where we were working. they struck up conversations with the kid - after watching him swing. Asked him several questions. Not one of them asked him how many HRs he's hit. They asked about his grades, his defense and his speed. In that order. The things that make you go "Mmmmm".

As for the forward by coiling, etc. Yes, in many (most) [almost all] good hitters there is forward by turning. Sit and turn. Are there precautions? Precautions that should be mentioned when giving instructions to fathers trying to learn to help and spend time with their sons? I think so. Can you think of any directly related to "forward by coiling"? Have you added the precautions (if any) when giving your advice?

What advice would you give a HS player that hit .568 with 23 SB, 4Ks, 7 HBP and 12 BB in 25 games?

I thank you for your civil discussion and patience. It has been a pleasure to discuss this with you and I hope we can continue in the future.

I would suggest you look back through your posts in this thread for inconsistencies in order to improve the organization of your philosophy. "Feel" isn't enough when you are helping others. "Why?" is a question oft asked and must be answered to and by the coach. Read up on Trevor Bauer to get a "feel" for how important this is becoming to today's players.


How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).
NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).
Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.
Now there are "styles"? I don't care, you choose. I don't care for Bonds, I don't like cheaters, but whatever. I'll do it however you want.

Simply "raising the hands" is now "tip and rip"? Raising the hands with what and what are the hands doing while they are being raised? Is raising the hands the objective or is it a result of something else (more important)?
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).
Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.


NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.
Now there are "styles"? I don't care, you choose. I don't care for Bonds, I don't like cheaters, but whatever. I'll do it however you want.

Simply "raising the hands" is now "tip and rip"? Raising the hands with what and what are the hands doing while they are being raised? Is raising the hands the objective or is it a result of something else (more important)?


There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.
I didn't say it caused anything. Please explain how "tip and rip" can resolve connection issues?

"Resistance"? Now you're losing me. That is a very bad word to use when talking about trying to move the body efficiently.

"Not difficult to figure out", yet look around. I always laugh when I read these kinds of claims. Hoss, if it was that easy, there would be a lot more people doing it. Hitting a baseball with a bat is the hardest thing to do in sports. A lot of world class athletes have tried and failed.

I never said the shoulders do I everything now did I? Look at Pujols again very, very carefully.

We aren't talking about checking swings LF. I have already told you in your PM you deleted how Pujols gets the bat flat without using his hands. The others do it the same way. They aren't using their hands to do it LF. Look at the video you sent me of "How to do it right" again. he's not using his hands. "Square the ball up" - direction? You said they add power. How do they add power? Direction and power are two different things LF.

Yeah, Epstein can probably swing a bat. Yeager? Where did you see him swing one?

So Englishbey doesn't have a high level swing huh? Where did you see him swing it?
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.

There have always been styles of "tip and rip"? I know there have always been styles of hitting.

Wait now! I thought we were tipping the bat toward the pitcher? Now it's toward the opposite dug out?

So that's all anybody needs to know to have a MLB swing?

Update: I just took a quick try at it. I could do it with my wrists and forearms some, but not my hands. I needed them to .... well never mind.

Did you see Coach Quick's "most common faults", the second one?

You know what I see most? Running the knob at the ball - usually from doing the @#^%$ fence drill. In other words trying to use the hands.

See it all the time. Every day. Horrible fault. I wish somebody could come up with a cue to take their hands away until they learn how to do the important things, then we could add them back in a little at a time, slowly, in order to help them get a better swing...
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.

There have always been styles of "tip and rip"? I know there have always been styles of hitting.

Wait now! I thought we were tipping the bat toward the pitcher? Now it's toward the opposite dug out?

So that's all anybody needs to know to have a MLB swing?

Update: I just took a quick try at it. I could do it with my wrists and forearms some, but not my hands. I needed them to .... well never mind.

Did you see Coach Quick's "most common faults", the second one?

You know what I see most? Running the knob at the ball - usually from doing the @#^%$ fence drill. In other words trying to use the hands.

See it all the time. Every day. Horrible fault. I wish somebody could come up with a cue to take their hands away until they learn how to do the important things, then we could add them back in a little at a time, slowly, in order to help them get a better swing...


Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.
Last edited by Low Finish
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.
I didn't say it caused anything. Please explain how "tip and rip" can resolve connection issues?

"Resistance"? Now you're losing me. That is a very bad word to use when talking about trying to move the body efficiently.

"Not difficult to figure out", yet look around. I always laugh when I read these kinds of claims. Hoss, if it was that easy, there would be a lot more people doing it. Hitting a baseball with a bat is the hardest thing to do in sports. A lot of world class athletes have tried and failed.

I never said the shoulders do I everything now did I? Look at Pujols again very, very carefully.

We aren't talking about checking swings LF. I have already told you in your PM you deleted how Pujols gets the bat flat without using his hands. The others do it the same way. They aren't using their hands to do it LF. Look at the video you sent me of "How to do it right" again. he's not using his hands. "Square the ball up" - direction? You said they add power. How do they add power? Direction and power are two different things LF.

Yeah, Epstein can probably swing a bat. Yeager? Where did you see him swing one?

So Englishbey doesn't have a high level swing huh? Where did you see him swing it?


I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!
You've seen clips of him where? My guess is you've seen clips of drills. not the same thing is it LF? No they don't. The wrists are one of the weakest joints in the body LF. There is no power being imparted BY the hands. Now if you want to say transferred THROUGH all that, I might be on board. Why is rotation not the most accurate word to describe the actions of the shoulders during a swing in this context?

Can you give a link to these clips of Yeager, I've been unable to find them.

No he isn't LF, you aren't looking close enough. He is not turning the barrel with his hands. Tell you what. Watch it real close, then try to mimic it with out using your hands for anything other than...well you know. See how it works.

No, we don't want to resist, we want to do it in the right order. Muscles don't work good that way. If you do a bicep curl are you stronger if you "resist" with your tricep or if you allow the bicep to work as unimpeded as possible? It's not resistance we're looking for, it's unloading in the proper sequence. Like a chain. Link by link. Now there are times and places for a little isometric tension in order to maintain some things while doing other things. We are not "resisting" the rotation, we are maintaining bat/body alignment as it attempts to change due to the evolution of the swing. If you want the shoulders to lag behind the hips - start them later.

We have gone from "hands add power" to "hands are direction" to "hands (wrists and forearms) add a little power". Interesting. i'll give you a little tip: When you say "Hands" to a hitter, he doesn't think everything from the shoulders down, he thinks past the wrist.


Understand now when I post I am simply thinking out loud. Just because I say "No..." it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. Looking back I can see where it could be construed as me making definitive statements - not my intent. Cool?
Last edited by NDD
quote:
Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact.


I would never use this phrase or anything close to it when I instruct. First it would produce a swing that would look like a flipper on a pinball machine as you would have players using too much top hand. Second when you relay to the player that you want them to direct the bat to contact it will slow down the swing as they try to connect the barrel to the ball rather than trusting the correct hand path will produce the desired result. Turning the barrel to assist directing the bat to contact is about the worst advise to give a player.
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?
Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"
Last edited by NDD

Add Reply

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×