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Questions About "Hands" Cues In Hitting Instruction and General Discussion of Hitting

P Prime91,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?
Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"


The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.
Last edited by Prime9
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!
You've seen clips of him where? My guess is you've seen clips of drills. not the same thing is it LF? No they don't. The wrists are one of the weakest joints in the body LF. There is no power being imparted BY the hands. Now if you want to say transferred THROUGH all that, I might be on board. Why is rotation not the most accurate word to describe the actions of the shoulders during a swing in this context?

Can you give a link to these clips of Yeager, I've been unable to find them.

No he isn't LF, you aren't looking close enough. He is not turning the barrel with his hands. Tell you what. Watch it real close, then try to mimic it with out using your hands for anything other than...well you know. See how it works.

No, we don't want to resist, we want to do it in the right order. Muscles don't work good that way. If you do a bicep curl are you stronger if you "resist" with your tricep or if you allow the bicep to work as unimpeded as possible? It's not resistance we're looking for, it's unloading in the proper sequence. Like a chain. Link by link. Now there are times and places for a little isometric tension in order to maintain some things while doing other things. We are not "resisting" the rotation, we are maintaining bat/body alignment as it attempts to change due to the evolution of the swing. If you want the shoulders to lag behind the hips - start them later.

We have gone from "hands add power" to "hands are direction" to "hands (wrists and forearms) add a little power". Interesting. i'll give you a little tip: When you say "Hands" to a hitter, he doesn't think everything from the shoulders down, he thinks past the wrist.


Understand now when I post I am simply thinking out loud. Just because I say "No..." it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. Looking back I can see where it could be construed as me making definitive statements - not my intent. Cool?


This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by shortnquick:
quote:
Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact.


I would never use this phrase or anything close to it when I instruct. First it would produce a swing that would look like a flipper on a pinball machine as you would have players using too much top hand. Second when you relay to the player that you want them to direct the bat to contact it will slow down the swing as they try to connect the barrel to the ball rather than trusting the correct hand path will produce the desired result. Turning the barrel to assist directing the bat to contact is about the worst advise to give a player.


I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.


Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.
Last edited by shortnquick
bballdad2016bballdad20161,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
quote:
Originally posted by HittersCount:
What makes a good hitting Coach?


Good question. A good hitting coach has the same relative qualities as any other type of coach, teacher, instructor, etc. The ability to understand the student as an individual and get that student to understand the message (lesson) on his/her terms. Ted Williams was one of the greatest hitters... i wonder if he would be able to explain his hitting concept to a 14YO baseball player on a level that they could understand.


I agree with shortnquick... be careful what you post as far as instruction is concerned. Be aware of your audience and try to teach to the lowest level... if teaching is what you are trying to do here.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by shortnquick:
quote:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.


Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.


I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?
shortnquickshortnquick500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by shortnquick:
quote:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.


Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.


I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?


After reading the last 5 pages, I would rather not, and will not. I posted because I just wanted to caution readers, coaches and dads. I did not post to get into a discussion with you that unless we were standing next to each other in a cage would ever be beneficial to me, you or anyone else reading.
Last edited by shortnquick
bballdad2016bballdad20161,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?


Honestly Low, i cannot. I have never heard the term before. I can try to visualize it, but i don't know if i am visualizing it correctly.

Turn the barrel - rolling of the wrists maybe? I really dont know. And that is the point people are trying to make here.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
At least a partial value to this thread is how individuals approach the topic of hitting. Regardless of whether there are two or twenty, the rest of us can benefit. I understand exactly where NDD is coming from and I understand the perspective Low Finish is trying to convey so reading both of their thoughts is interesting to say the least. If I were a dad who had not coached much at all, then I might get lost. However, experienced coaches should be able to follow both schools of logic. What I respect most of all is that they are discussing this issue with a lot of respect toward each other. JMHO!
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?
Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"


The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.
How is it inconsiderate if all you have to do is not open it? Inconsiderate would be carrying on this conversation in a thread you started. Have a nice day
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.
Nope. You've got it backwards
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
My previous comment about this thread were offensive to some. Many of us who have been on these various websites know the history of some of the discussion between NDD and Low Finish among others. I did not intend to offend anyone.

With over 3,000 posts on this site, most know me and know that had I intended to insult someone, I'm pretty straight forward in doing so. I want to make a public apology to anyone who is offended.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
hsbaseballweb used to have some great debates on hitting. Over time, that died down due in part to the "hitting wars" and in part to a perception that moderators (me) killed the discussion. This debate between NDD and Low Finish is great for the site. I hope others can contribute and keep the discussion on the topic instead of getting personal. JMHO!
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?


Honestly Low, i cannot. I have never heard the term before. I can try to visualize it, but i don't know if i am visualizing it correctly.

Turn the barrel - rolling of the wrists maybe? I really don't know. And that is the point people are trying to make here.


Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
hsbaseballweb used to have some great debates on hitting. Over time, that died down due in part to the "hitting wars" and in part to a perception that moderators (me) killed the discussion. This debate between NDD and Low Finish is great for the site. I hope others can contribute and keep the discussion on the topic instead of getting personal. JMHO!


Thank you, I will do my best to keep this a content related thread.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.
Nope. You've got it backwards


No, I don't. I hate to say "Try it to see it" but that's what you have to do.

Tewks (who hopefully will join in) says "Knob to the ball, hands are doing nothing. Barrel to the ball is a hand movement." or something to that effect.

If he's reading, I hope he chimes in on this topic.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.
Good video. Problem is, he isn't doing it with his hands like he thinks he is. He is right about what is happening, but not about what is doing it, sort of like you. Even when you throw the barrel at the ball, the knob (and therefore hands) still travel in that direction - a lot of it is a difference in degree. Uncocking is what I was taught to call it and it isn't done with the hands. I can (and just did) get to that very same place without doing anything at all with my hands. Except...well, you know...
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.
I will conceded the point that what is commonly called "shoulder rotation" is actually the trunk if that is your point - are the shoulders part of the trunk? What is considered "trunk"?

By your definition of "hands include wrists and forearms" - I could be on board. But ambiguity serves no one in most cases. I never said the "hands are dead" - holding on to the bat is doing things. Yes, they do things, I just think you are attributing to them results for which they are not responsible.

No, Pujols is not turning the barrel with his hands. If he were in the waiter's tray set up he is using, it would be very easy to see. And it isn't. No, he doesn't stop - on that we agree and I agree that it is a good thing to not stop. Again, how do the hands add power when they are distal to one of the weakest joints in the body?

Where have you seen full swings by Steve Englishbey? Can you provide a link please?

So starting the lower body and then when they decide to swing engaging the upper body is not starting the upper body later than the lower body? You've lost me.

I'm glad we are on the same page as far as my posts.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.
WHAT? "autopilot"? Where did this come from?
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by CoachB25:
At least a partial value to this thread is how individuals approach the topic of hitting. Regardless of whether there are two or twenty, the rest of us can benefit. I understand exactly where NDD is coming from and I understand the perspective Low Finish is trying to convey so reading both of their thoughts is interesting to say the least. If I were a dad who had not coached much at all, then I might get lost. However, experienced coaches should be able to follow both schools of logic. What I respect most of all is that they are discussing this issue with a lot of respect toward each other. JMHO!


Thank you Coach, it is greatly appreciated.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I don't. I hate to say "Try it to see it" but that's what you have to do.

Tewks (who hopefully will join in) says "Knob to the ball, hands are doing nothing. Barrel to the ball is a hand movement." or something to that effect.

If he's reading, I hope he chimes in on this topic.
Yeah, I think you are. I am trying it LF. "Barrel to the ball" is not a hand movement LF, that is where we disagree. I can do it very easily without doing anything with my hands except...well, you know.

I would love for Bobby to participate, I think he is a sharp guy with a lot to offer.

Sorry about the answer before to this one, I was trying to do it from my phone and I'm not good at that.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Prime9:
The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.
If it was the thread title that offended you, all you had to do was say so. I changed it, but if the current one doesn't suit your needs, just let me know. I will not put LF's name in the thread title, that is called a "call out" thread and wouldn't be right. LF, and the others, are participating of their own free will. If it dies, it dies.

Yes, this is generally a public board. Fortunately it is is divided into threads of interest that can appeal to one or many. Beautiful.

Is this "board decorum" somewhere I can read it? Does it say anything about the thread starter being able to select the topic and kind of steer it?

I am sorry you don't like the thread, but I do and I am just as much a member here as you are until the powers decree otherwise. There are a lot of threads on here I don't participate in, but I would never begrudge the people that do the opportunity to do so. I am also sorry I have been unable to "enlighten" you, but I am not here to enlighten anybody. As I very clearly stated in my post, I am here to learn.

Have a nice day.
Last edited by NDD
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.
LF, I was reading back through to make sure I didn't miss anything while I was getting caught up. Can you explain these results please?
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!
Ok, I did it. When I do it with my hands, I get an exact image of the video you sent me (PM still gone BTW) of how not to do it. We used to call that "dumping the barrel" - I still do. Now, when I do it by raising the upper front arm into shoulder plane and dropping the back elbow into the slot (and not doing anything with my hands except...well you know) guess who I look like?

Pull up with one hand and down with the other on what?

Didn't you say before the elbow turned toward the opposite dug out?

How many planes of rotation are there?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.
Good video. Problem is, he isn't doing it with his hands like he thinks he is. He is right about what is happening, but not about what is doing it, sort of like you. Even when you throw the barrel at the ball, the knob (and therefore hands) still travel in that direction - a lot of it is a difference in degree. Uncocking is what I was taught to call it and it isn't done with the hands. I can (and just did) get to that very same place without doing anything at all with my hands. Except...well, you know...


It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.
I will conceded the point that what is commonly called "shoulder rotation" is actually the trunk if that is your point - are the shoulders part of the trunk? What is considered "trunk"?

By your definition of "hands include wrists and forearms" - I could be on board. But ambiguity serves no one in most cases. I never said the "hands are dead" - holding on to the bat is doing things. Yes, they do things, I just think you are attributing to them results for which they are not responsible.

No, Pujols is not turning the barrel with his hands. If he were in the waiter's tray set up he is using, it would be very easy to see. And it isn't. No, he doesn't stop - on that we agree and I agree that it is a good thing to not stop. Again, how do the hands add power when they are distal to one of the weakest joints in the body?

Where have you seen full swings by Steve Englishbey? Can you provide a link please?

So starting the lower body and then when they decide to swing engaging the upper body is not starting the upper body later than the lower body? You've lost me.

I'm glad we are on the same page as far as my posts.


Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.

That (uncocking) is waaaaay later than what we are talking about. It comes just at contact. After the adjustment has been made.

It's not what is getting the barrel flat (on plane) - that isn't the hands.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!
Ok, I did it. When I do it with my hands, I get an exact image of the video you sent me (PM still gone BTW) of how not to do it. We used to call that "dumping the barrel" - I still do. Now, when I do it by raising the upper front arm into shoulder plane and dropping the back elbow into the slot (and not doing anything with my hands except...well you know) guess who I look like?

Pull up with one hand and down with the other on what?

Didn't you say before the elbow turned toward the opposite dug out?

How many planes of rotation are there?


There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.
LF, I was reading back through to make sure I didn't miss anything while I was getting caught up. Can you explain these results please?


Speed deeper behind you. Consistent squaring up of balls. Easier to hit high velocities. Easier to adjust to location.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.

That (uncocking) is waaaaay later than what we are talking about. It comes just at contact. After the adjustment has been made.

It's not what is getting the barrel flat (on plane) - that isn't the hands.


Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.
I didn't say it, I was asking.

So now it is "a small amount of power"? Do the hands provide direction in a swing when the ball is belt high middle/middle? I didn't say the uncocking was because of anything, although we have used a heavy bat (pro issue - no numbers) and the rotational force "uncocked" the bat about out of his hands. It is an act, but it isn't done with the hands. You keep saying "hands, wrists, forearms" - I don't think you should do that. And you are leaving out the upper arms altogether - a key component. Why can't you say what the hands do, then what the wrists do, then what the forearms do, then what the upper arms do - etc.? It is quite obvious they don't all do the same thing - they can't. And at the end of the day, if you use the word "hands" as "hands" and not everything from the neck to the tips of the fingers, what do the hands really do in a swing?

Too bad about being banned, I wish I knew which one it is, but don't get in trouble.

"Lower body start or rotate into foot plant" - be careful - are they the same thing?

Agreed, sort of. I don't think it is "resisting" though. Although that cue may work for you and others. The obliques contract after the brain says swing?

Ok, you think it is an oversimplification - that's fine. I think "Hands!" is a gross oversimplification and quite honestly incorrect. Hands do not add power. That is a gross oversimplification. If you say hands provide direction - is that an oversimplification as well? What about the tilt, shoulder plane, etc.? Remember, we are not talking about a "SAVE ME!" move with 2 strikes.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.
I don't disagree with anything except the last sentence. What the uncocking does is turn the knob back into the hitters mid-section (generally direction) from the direction of the pitcher and when done correctly finishes the optimum bat and body alignment by aligning the bat with with the forearm and eventually upper arm into the shoulder plane. We've been working on this a lot because he has a tendency to be behind just a itsy bit with the bat. It isn't done with the hands, it's done with the wrists (mostly). And it isn't about being flat. I think some people call it "whip" and I can understand why that is.
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.
I didn't say it, I was asking.

So now it is "a small amount of power"? Do the hands provide direction in a swing when the ball is belt high middle/middle? I didn't say the uncocking was because of anything, although we have used a heavy bat (pro issue - no numbers) and the rotational force "uncocked" the bat about out of his hands. It is an act, but it isn't done with the hands. You keep saying "hands, wrists, forearms" - I don't think you should do that. And you are leaving out the upper arms altogether - a key component. Why can't you say what the hands do, then what the wrists do, then what the forearms do, then what the upper arms do - etc.? It is quite obvious they don't all do the same thing - they can't. And at the end of the day, if you use the word "hands" as "hands" and not everything from the neck to the tips of the fingers, what do the hands really do in a swing?

Too bad about being banned, I wish I knew which one it is, but don't get in trouble.

"Lower body start or rotate into foot plant" - be careful - are they the same thing?

Agreed, sort of. I don't think it is "resisting" though. Although that cue may work for you and others. The obliques contract after the brain says swing?

Ok, you think it is an oversimplification - that's fine. I think "Hands!" is a gross oversimplification and quite honestly incorrect. Hands do not add power. That is a gross oversimplification. If you say hands provide direction - is that an oversimplification as well? What about the tilt, shoulder plane, etc.? Remember, we are not talking about a "SAVE ME!" move with 2 strikes.


See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?
Low FinishLow Finish500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by NDD:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.
I don't disagree with anything except the last sentence. What the uncocking does is turn the knob back into the hitters mid-section (generally direction) from the direction of the pitcher and when done correctly finishes the optimum bat and body alignment by aligning the bat with with the forearm and eventually upper arm into the shoulder plane. We've been working on this a lot because he has a tendency to be behind just a itsy bit with the bat. It isn't done with the hands, it's done with the wrists (mostly). And it isn't about being flat. I think some people call it "whip" and I can understand why that is.


Yes, yes, and it's not done solely by the hands, the entire forearm/hand/wrist complex is responsible.

The plane of the bat relative to the shoulders is not an absolute, but it appears in 99% of swings.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:

See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?

Emphasis mine: No. I absolutely positively do not agree with that at all. And that's the problem. Telling people that does nothing to help anybody. Trying to use the hands to control the upper body gets young hitters in more trouble than anything else. That is the very essence of this whole discussion. You think your personal experience tells you that. We haven't seen you swing so one of two things is happening. Using the hands that way is the easy way out, it is not part of a high a high level swing. The only thing that moves less than the hands is the head. No. No. A thousand times no. It is very easy to see that the statement is incorrect looking at any good hitter or even the videos you sent me.

What drill did you post? I missed it.

Proper sequencing, proper movement patters get the lower "ahead" of the upper. Not the hands.

1. Not in my case. There are studies.
2. Right.
3. Ok.
4. Sort of. It is not necessary to counter-rotate the lower half to hit the ball well. It is not bad to do it if done properly (i.e. not counter-rotating the upper half while doing it.) it is also possible to hit the ball well, even in a game situation, from a static set up and simply sitting and turning from a heel drop.
5. Sequence must be correct.
N NDD100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, yes, and it's not done solely by the hands, the entire forearm/hand/wrist complex is responsible.

The plane of the bat relative to the shoulders is not an absolute, but it appears in 99% of swings.
It's not done by the hands at all. But ok.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence.
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