Questions About "Hands" Cues In Hitting Instruction and General Discussion of Hitting

the links are bad??

I don't know why those didn't work, they were really good ones too. How about these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...SmM4&feature=related

Now in these I can see what I think people are calling "tip' just a bit. But he's not pulling backwards on the bat with his top or any other hand. And the "tip" has nothing to do with intentionally getting the bat head to move toward the pitcher.

Perhaps I completely misunderstand "tip" and "top hand torque".

Top Hand Torque doesn't exist.

Top hand SWIVEL does exist. He's turning the barrel rearward with a unit move that includes the lateral tilt of his shoulders.

What does that have to do with swiveling his top hand, which I don't see either? And I might be wrong, but I could have sworn you told somebody on here to pull on the bat with their top hand, was that somebody else and not you?

Can you explain this "unit move" please?

And address the "tip"? I get the rip part.

Nope, it was in the "Swing Analysis" thread.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
...and then pull the handle rearward with his top hand. It is an upper body move, and this "rearward pull" should FEEL like it's starting just before the hips fire, but it happens in sequential order.

If you have any questions, please PM me. Despite some of my (admittedly) caustic posts, I do enjoy helping people improve.

I cut it a bit for brevity sake, but it's intact from the start point.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What does that have to do with swiveling his top hand, which I don't see either? And I might be wrong, but I could have sworn you told somebody on here to pull on the bat with their top hand, was that somebody else and not you?

Can you explain this "unit move" please?

And address the "tip"? I get the rip part.

The "Pull" rearward is just a feel statement. Top hand torque (IMO) implies that the hands are working separately and at separate times. They aren't.

"Handle Torque" doesn't exist. As for the "top hand swivel" watch Barry Bonds do it. The handle is "pulled" to make the barrel go rearward INTO the top hand swivel.

I'll PM you the RIGHT way to demonstrate it and the WRONG way to demonstrate it.

It reads pretty specific to me. It also sounds like you are telling them to work the hands independently and at separate times.

If it is a feel thing, how can I watch Bonds do it? There's no way Pujols is pulling anything with his top hand, I know that waiter's tray set up very well. it is not conducive to pulling. Nor is he moving the barrel with his hands. The barrel goes where it goes through a combination of what he does with his front and rear arms and the rest of his body.

Why are you PMing me? Why can't everybody see?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
It reads pretty specific to me. It also sounds like you are telling them to work the hands independently and at separate times.

If it is a feel thing, how can I watch Bonds do it? There's no way Pujols is pulling anything with his top hand, I know that waiter's tray set up very well. it is not conducive to pulling. Nor is he moving the barrel with his hands. The barrel goes where it goes through a combination of what he does with his front and rear arms and the rest of his body.

Why are you PMing me? Why can't everybody see?

sounds like you are ready to start a ****ing contest..But hey i was born yesterday..what don't you get? A 12 year old can grab the concept yet you cant? do you have a different agenda here?

here it is..either you can do it or you can work on your s****r game..the tip loads the hands and keeps them back while the front coils forward..


Here is a quote from Dmac that might (I doubt) clear things up;

"You fellows have kind of lost me. For me, the bat quickness helped by the hands (arms) comes from the running start. The running start comes from tipping the bat and then letting it rip with the hands without stopping to set the bat.........just going from the time the bat reaches it's farthest point in the tip. Here are some clips starting with Ruth and working the way up to the guys of today like Bonds, Guerrero, Soriano and the young teenager Robert Stock.

"When they tip it forward, they go from there.....they don't start, and then set their hands and then have to start again. Much like the running start I have yapped about with maddux for years

"What he is doing is getting more batspeed with less effort.......a running start. It does not need to be explained to a kid at all......just tell him to get his hands away from the body a little, point the bat at the sky, tip it towards the pitcher and then let it rip. If he asks why, you respond by telling him he will hit the ball a lot farther. When he does, there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever. If he can't do it, then there won't be any need to talk about pronation or whatever, because it won't matter.

"About 99% of all guys in the big leaguers were not taught the swing. They just found it along the way through emulation, feel or just blind luck. The clip of Williams is great, because he was 48 years old when it was shot and he is ripping the ball and laughing. He is also tipping the bat and then letting it rip. He is also the best hitter who ever walked and had dozens of instructors telling people that he was just a freak and that you should not copy him. They say the same thing about Bonds today, and the only guy who was smart enough to copy him was Robert Stocks dad, and it is paying off. He copies Bond's running start and the kid can hit balls a long way. Everyone else does not copy it because they think it is too hard to do. Mr Oh hit 868 dingers,was 5' 10, weighed 165 and nobody paid attention to his swing in the USA either.

"Last year in September, I saw the Mariners play a 6 game home series and every day I was there early to watch BP. Outside of Richie Sexon who is 6'9", Ichiro hits the ball farther than anyone on that club. He bangs ball after ball off the restaurant in right field which is about 410 ft away. In BP he tips the bat and lets it rip. He is 5'9" and about 160 lbs. In games he does not do it, because with his 3.6 speed, he was taught at a young age to take advantage of it.

"If your kids can run like Ichiro, then they can be dead hands slap hitters, but if they can't, then they better hit like Molitor, Olerud or Brett or better yet, learn to tip it and rip it and they may hit enough home runs and doubles to make their High School coach really like them.

"If you are built like Frank Thomas, you don't need to tip it either. Ted Williams once said that if he could work with Thomas that Frank would hit 80 home runs every year. It never happened.

"Timing it for a good athlete is not hard, what has happened is that nobody has taught it to anybody. What is really hard is setting your bat behind your shoulder, go from a dead start and then expect rotation to bring the bat around and magically hit the ball. That has been taught to many kids.......good luck"



read the last few sentences VERY CAREFULLY..

If you don't like the thread, don't post in it. I asked for a clarification, an explanation of a mantra I see repeated on here on a regular basis. After reading instructions to "then pull the handle rearward with the top hand".

Then I got a gif of dumping the barrel and told that is how NOT to do it.

Now if a guy comes on here and asks for help with his 8 year old and he tells the kid "pull on the handle with your top hand" - what is going to happen?

And why is it any time assertions are challenged, the first thing that happens is the asterisks start flying? Because it's wrong and the asterisks slingers know it's wrong.

A 12 year old can grasp the concept of what? Pulling on the handle with the top hand? Probably. Is that the concept?

Yeah, I have an agenda - to learn as much as I possibly can about the right way to swing a baseball bat, after I do that to help those that look for it, and to understand when somebody is blowing smoke so I don't waste my time in the cage trying to work through some mindless cue yet again.

Perhaps discussions would be better based on human anatomy and physiology, kinetics and other science rather than some cue based on magic feel.

The bat head movement I see in Pujols in loading is a result, not an objective. And it's a result of putting his body in the best position to unload, primarily the bigger muscle groups such as the shoulder complex.

I often find it amusing and more than a bit sad when people look at a hitter doing a drill or another, don't get it, don't get the purpose, and make value judgments based on ignorance. It happens quite often in a long backwards chaining learning environment and may be in part due to today's "just add water" mentality.

I thank you for the quote. It helps, although a link to be able to understand context would have helped more. I'm sure I can find it on my own though.

BTW, if it is as easy as that, why hasn't anybody ever hit 80? If Bonds is the model, why didn't he ever hit 80? Why didn't Williams? Does Ichiro still have 3.6 speed? Is he waiting until he can't run anymore to start hitting 80 while his team struggles to score a run? I'm sure the Mariner's pitching staff would settle for 40 from him.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
If you don't like the thread, don't post in it. I asked for a clarification, an explanation of a mantra I see repeated on here on a regular basis. After reading instructions to "then pull the handle rearward with the top hand".

Then I got a gif of dumping the barrel and told that is how NOT to do it.

Now if a guy comes on here and asks for help with his 8 year old and he tells the kid "pull on the handle with your top hand" - what is going to happen?

And why is it any time assertions are challenged, the first thing that happens is the asterisks start flying? Because it's wrong and the asterisks slingers know it's wrong.

A 12 year old can grasp the concept of what? Pulling on the handle with the top hand? Probably. Is that the concept?

Yeah, I have an agenda - to learn as much as I possibly can about the right way to swing a baseball bat, after I do that to help those that look for it, and to understand when somebody is blowing smoke so I don't waste my time in the cage trying to work through some mindless cue yet again.

Perhaps discussions would be better based on human anatomy and physiology, kinetics and other science rather than some cue based on magic feel.

The bat head movement I see in Pujols in loading is a result, not an objective. And it's a result of putting his body in the best position to unload, primarily the bigger muscle groups such as the shoulder complex.

I often find it amusing and more than a bit sad when people look at a hitter doing a drill or another, don't get it, don't get the purpose, and make value judgments based on ignorance. It happens quite often in a long backwards chaining learning environment and may be in part due to today's "just add water" mentality.

I thank you for the quote. It helps, although a link to be able to understand context would have helped more. I'm sure I can find it on my own though.

BTW, if it is as easy as that, why hasn't anybody ever hit 80? If Bonds is the model, why didn't he ever hit 80? Why didn't Williams? Does Ichiro still have 3.6 speed? Is he waiting until he can't run anymore to start hitting 80 while his team struggles to score a run? I'm sure the Mariner's pitching staff would settle for 40 from him.

lets face it ndd i wasnt born yesterday,,its obvious what path you want to take here..you want to talk physics and all that crud that means zero..stay with the dead hand spinner from texas,,thats where this is going..you know it and i know it,,again it isnt rocket science..either your kid can do it or he is NOT athletic enough to time it and get it done.

without a CUE how do you explain things to kids? what do you think a cue is..? A direction..without a cue what do you do..just stand there? please just pooh pooh one of the most simple thorough quotes from the best baseball guy that visited these board..you should stay with steve,,set yourself and spin like crazy,,and then add the whip before you fall of the merry go round..maybe your kids needs some SIMPLE instruction..instead of trying to dispute everything see if your kid can handle the tip and rip.get back to us

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
If you don't like the thread, don't post in it. I asked for a clarification, an explanation of a mantra I see repeated on here on a regular basis. After reading instructions to "then pull the handle rearward with the top hand".

Then I got a gif of dumping the barrel and told that is how NOT to do it.

Now if a guy comes on here and asks for help with his 8 year old and he tells the kid "pull on the handle with your top hand" - what is going to happen?

And why is it any time assertions are challenged, the first thing that happens is the asterisks start flying? Because it's wrong and the asterisks slingers know it's wrong.

A 12 year old can grasp the concept of what? Pulling on the handle with the top hand? Probably. Is that the concept?

Yeah, I have an agenda - to learn as much as I possibly can about the right way to swing a baseball bat, after I do that to help those that look for it, and to understand when somebody is blowing smoke so I don't waste my time in the cage trying to work through some mindless cue yet again.

Perhaps discussions would be better based on human anatomy and physiology, kinetics and other science rather than some cue based on magic feel.

The bat head movement I see in Pujols in loading is a result, not an objective. And it's a result of putting his body in the best position to unload, primarily the bigger muscle groups such as the shoulder complex.

I often find it amusing and more than a bit sad when people look at a hitter doing a drill or another, don't get it, don't get the purpose, and make value judgments based on ignorance. It happens quite often in a long backwards chaining learning environment and may be in part due to today's "just add water" mentality.

I thank you for the quote. It helps, although a link to be able to understand context would have helped more. I'm sure I can find it on my own though.

BTW, if it is as easy as that, why hasn't anybody ever hit 80? If Bonds is the model, why didn't he ever hit 80? Why didn't Williams? Does Ichiro still have 3.6 speed? Is he waiting until he can't run anymore to start hitting 80 while his team struggles to score a run? I'm sure the Mariner's pitching staff would settle for 40 from him.

lets face it ndd i wasnt born yesterday,,its obvious what path you want to take here..you want to talk physics and all that crud that means zero..stay with the dead hand spinner from texas,,thats where this is going..you know it and i know it,,again it isnt rocket science..either your kid can do it or he is NOT athletic enough to time it and get it done.

without a CUE how do you explain things to kids? what do you think a cue is..? A direction..without a cue what do you do..just stand there? please just pooh pooh one of the most simple thorough quotes from the best baseball guy that visited these board..you should stay with steve,,set yourself and spin like crazy,,and then add the whip before you fall of the merry go round..maybe your kids needs some SIMPLE instruction..instead of trying to dispute everything see if your kid can handle the tip and rip.get back to us

primarily the bigger muscle groups such as the shoulder complex.


heres a tip think hips and hands ...shoulders? good luck with "quick" shoulders.

As you have made this personal, are bad mouthing my son, have deflected the thread into your hatred for an instructor and are unable to stay on topic, please do not post in it any more.

I thanked you for the quote. I didn't not "pooh" anything. Ted Williams was given to exaggeration, as is very plain to see. There is no need to state or even imply that I was in any way denigrating anybody on this board. To disagree does not require a blood feud anywhere except apparently Illinois.

You don't like an instructor. We get it. Nobody says you have to. Nowhere have I mentioned anything about any specific instructor, a style, a concept or any buzzwords except those given as recent advice on this board.

I asked for a clarification. Not your personal vendetta against an individual.

And I am still waiting for it in the two clips I posted above of whom is widely considered one of the greatest right-handed hitters of all time. A man whose swing I personally admire as a model swing.

Not for you to criticize a young player you have never even seen much less met as "not athletic enough". What you have done here is show your true nature. Unfortunately it is not worthy of the Game nor of the good people on this board.

Again, please show a modicum of self-control and do not post in this thread any more.

Have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What does that have to do with swiveling his top hand, which I don't see either? And I might be wrong, but I could have sworn you told somebody on here to pull on the bat with their top hand, was that somebody else and not you?

Can you explain this "unit move" please?

And address the "tip"? I get the rip part.

The "Pull" rearward is just a feel statement. Top hand torque (IMO) implies that the hands are working separately and at separate times. They aren't.

"Handle Torque" doesn't exist. As for the "top hand swivel" watch Barry Bonds do it. The handle is "pulled" to make the barrel go rearward INTO the top hand swivel.

I'll PM you the RIGHT way to demonstrate it and the WRONG way to demonstrate it.

Can you identify the "hand swivel" in the clips of Pujols above please?

I saw your PM on the wrong way, please include the right way. It would be nice if you would post them for others to see, as I am sure there will be others come along later that could benefit. It's up to you, I won't do it as you sent them in a PM and I respect the privacy.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
As you have made this personal, are bad mouthing my son, have deflected the thread into your hatred for an instructor and are unable to stay on topic, please do not post in it any more.

I thanked you for the quote. I didn't not "pooh" anything. Ted Williams was given to exaggeration, as is very plain to see. There is no need to state or even imply that I was in any way denigrating anybody on this board. To disagree does not require a blood feud anywhere except apparently Illinois.

You don't like an instructor. We get it. Nobody says you have to. Nowhere have I mentioned anything about any specific instructor, a style, a concept or any buzzwords except those given as recent advice on this board.

I asked for a clarification. Not your personal vendetta against an individual.

And I am still waiting for it in the two clips I posted above of whom is widely considered one of the greatest right-handed hitters of all time. A man whose swing I personally admire as a model swing.

Not for you to criticize a young player you have never even seen much less met as "not athletic enough". What you have done here is show your true nature. Unfortunately it is not worthy of the Game nor of the good people on this board.

Again, please show a modicum of self-control and do not post in this thread any more.

Have a nice day.

too funny,,now i'm bad mouthing your son? You dont have to actually mention instructors..I know your game pal..just keep telling your boy the hands just hold onto the bat and keep telling him about those shoulders and large muscle groups....If i want to post in this thread i will,,u dont like it dont read it..hows that for a cue you can understand.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Top Hand Torque doesn't exist.

Top hand SWIVEL does exist. He's turning the barrel rearward with a unit move that includes the lateral tilt of his shoulders.

Can you expound on the "lateral tilt" please? To which side (as lateral means "side") a simple reference such as "towards the catcher" (example) would suffice for me.

Thank you.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
It reads pretty specific to me. It also sounds like you are telling them to work the hands independently and at separate times.

If it is a feel thing, how can I watch Bonds do it? There's no way Pujols is pulling anything with his top hand, I know that waiter's tray set up very well. it is not conducive to pulling. Nor is he moving the barrel with his hands. The barrel goes where it goes through a combination of what he does with his front and rear arms and the rest of his body.

Why are you PMing me? Why can't everybody see?

The sites at which the clips are shown are (I believe) banned sites at this one. Since I don't want to get banned, I follow the rules.

He IS moving the barrel with his hands, forearms, and wrists. The "hands" cannot move themselves. We feel it in the hands, so we talk about the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What does that have to do with swiveling his top hand, which I don't see either? And I might be wrong, but I could have sworn you told somebody on here to pull on the bat with their top hand, was that somebody else and not you?

Can you explain this "unit move" please?

And address the "tip"? I get the rip part.

To tip: Hold the hands even with your back breast. Push the handle until the head moves out of the plane. Hands must stay in the same place. Tips are performed with the forearms, but it must be felt in the hands.

Then, RIP it!

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Top Hand Torque doesn't exist.

Top hand SWIVEL does exist. He's turning the barrel rearward with a unit move that includes the lateral tilt of his shoulders.

Can you expound on the "lateral tilt" please? To which side (as lateral means "side") a simple reference such as "towards the catcher" (example) would suffice for me.

Thank you.

Towards the catcher first. Then, as the shoulders are forced around (they stop resisting rotation), they laterally tilt to help you get on plane.

Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:


The sites at which the clips are shown are (I believe) banned sites at this one. Since I don't want to get banned, I follow the rules.

He IS moving the barrel with his hands, forearms, and wrists. The "hands" cannot move themselves. We feel it in the hands, so we talk about the hands.

I understand.

Sorry, we'll have to disagree. He is not moving the barrel with his hands or anything else below the shoulders - primarily. There is of course no such thing as zero in something that smooth.

I also understand what you are trying to say about feeling it, but if you tell a dad to tell his 8yo to pull on the bat handle with his top hand, guess what he's going to do?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

To tip: Hold the hands even with your back breast. Push the handle until the head moves out of the plane. Hands must stay in the same place. Tips are performed with the forearms, but it must be felt in the hands.

Then, RIP it!

By "push the handle" you mean toward the catcher right, so the bat head inclines toward the pitcher?

I have no problem with the "running start" - like it, makes perfect sense. It's also not the only way to swing the bat as evidenced by several MLB players. No, they don't put the ball in McCovey's Cove, but they do tend do very well for average, numbers of hits, etc.

Don't have a problem with "tipping" the bat head toward the pitcher as part of it - as a result, not an objective. Why the distinction? Because I am a coach and I need to know why something is happening. If you want to be believable, you have to be a believer. A hitter may or may not care why. Some like to just be told what to do. Others are more thinkers and want to take the watch apart. A coach has to be able to take the watch apart regardless.

I think part of this is "What I think I see happening" as opposed to "This is why this happens and this is the intent."

I thank you for taking the time, hope you will answer my further questions, and appreciate you being civil.

Perhaps some others will give their thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
I don't know why those didn't work, they were really good ones too. How about these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...SmM4&feature=related

Now in these I can see what I think people are calling "tip' just a bit. But he's not pulling backwards on the bat with his top or any other hand. And the "tip" has nothing to do with intentionally getting the bat head to move toward the pitcher.

Perhaps I completely misunderstand "tip" and "top hand torque".

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?

About 49 sec mark.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:


The sites at which the clips are shown are (I believe) banned sites at this one. Since I don't want to get banned, I follow the rules.

He IS moving the barrel with his hands, forearms, and wrists. The "hands" cannot move themselves. We feel it in the hands, so we talk about the hands.

I understand.

Sorry, we'll have to disagree. He is not moving the barrel with his hands or anything else below the shoulders - primarily. There is of course no such thing as zero in something that smooth.

I also understand what you are trying to say about feeling it, but if you tell a dad to tell his 8yo to pull on the bat handle with his top hand, guess what he's going to do?

It depends on the direction you tell him to pull. Tell him to pull back as if he is elbowing someone behind him and the results may be good.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

To tip: Hold the hands even with your back breast. Push the handle until the head moves out of the plane. Hands must stay in the same place. Tips are performed with the forearms, but it must be felt in the hands.

Then, RIP it!

By "push the handle" you mean toward the catcher right, so the bat head inclines toward the pitcher?

IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

To tip: Hold the hands even with your back breast. Push the handle until the head moves out of the plane. Hands must stay in the same place. Tips are performed with the forearms, but it must be felt in the hands.

Then, RIP it!

By "push the handle" you mean toward the catcher right, so the bat head inclines toward the pitcher?

IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

I can buy this... We agree that the feeling is in the hands though?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

To tip: Hold the hands even with your back breast. Push the handle until the head moves out of the plane. Hands must stay in the same place. Tips are performed with the forearms, but it must be felt in the hands.

Then, RIP it!

By "push the handle" you mean toward the catcher right, so the bat head inclines toward the pitcher?

No.

I mean hold the bat vertically then move the elbow towards the opposite field by pulling in the bottom hand. "push the handle" is more of a top hand thing.

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:


Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

Thank you. In which video?

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?

About 49 sec mark.

Which video?

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:
IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

Ok. So it is the elbow? Or the shoulder?

So you are saying the bottom pushes the bat handle back toward the back shoulder (catcher)?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

No.

I mean hold the bat vertically then move the elbow towards the opposite field by pulling in the bottom hand. "push the handle" is more of a top hand thing.

Ok you lost me. Opposite field? You want a RH hitter to move an elbow towards RF? Which elbow? And he does this by pulling the bottom hand which way?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

No.

I mean hold the bat vertically then move the elbow towards the opposite field by pulling in the bottom hand. "push the handle" is more of a top hand thing.

Ok you lost me. Opposite field? You want a RH hitter to move an elbow towards RF? Which elbow? And he does this by pulling the bottom hand which way?

Pull the bottom hand IN towards the body. The bat head will fall out over the plate. Then, RIP the ball.

You need to be going forward while doing this or you'll strike out a ton.

What about the elbow to RF?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What about the elbow to RF?

The elbow (I believe supinates) towards right field.

Don't worry about the elbow. Do what Pujols does where he raises the bat out of plane and then goes from the vertical barrel.

Tip n' Rip only means that the bat never stops moving once it starts moving. It doesn't need to be a big action (ala Williams and Bonds), it can be like Pujols or Ortiz (quiet).

So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:


Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

Thank you. In which video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?

About 49 sec mark.

Which video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?

So, if the back elbow is coming down and lead elbow is working up and the shoulders are tilting, there will not be pressure felt in the hands? In which direction is this force being applied?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?

No, the hinge angle is not changing but I do not look for that to much.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:
IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

Ok. So it is the elbow? Or the shoulder?

So you are saying the bottom pushes the bat handle back toward the back shoulder (catcher)?

NO, I did not say the lead/bottom pushes the handle back toward the catcher. I said I do not think this happens. What I said was if you do it this way, you will load the lead shoulder. We do not want to load the lead shoulder.

What I said I believe happens is the top hand is in control of the tip. Back elbow raising will tip the barrel. There are other variations but this is what I prefer.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?

The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
Ok, I'm with you now. Can you tell me where in those videos of Pujols he tilts towards the catcher at any time?

About 49 sec mark.

Which video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVZNFaFOQU4

Ok thanks. We probably won't agree, but I don't think that has anything to do with tipping the bat toward the pitcher. What I mean is, telling someone to tip the bat is not going to make happen what he is doing. It is a result, not an action.

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?

quote:

So, if the back elbow is coming down and lead elbow is working up and the shoulders are tilting, there will not be pressure felt in the hands? In which direction is this force being applied?

I never noticed any, but that doesn't mean there isn't. Isn't there a difference between feeling pressure and actively doing something with the hands? Is the purpose to resist the pressure and maintain the hinge angle (or something else)?

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

Tip starts around 45 sec mark.

If the top hand is getting flat, which direction of force is it applying?

I don't think the hand is applying any force. I think the getting flat is a result of what he does with the rest of his body. Are you seeing him change the hinge angle in his wrists at that point as well?

No, the hinge angle is not changing but I do not look for that to much.

Ok, so we agree on that. Now if you're saying the hands are doing something to maintain the hinge angle and we are including wrists in "hands" I may be following you.

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by HYP:
IMO, the tip is not created by pushing the handle back. Rather it is created by way of the top hand.

Top hand elbow nudges behind and raises which tips the barrel. This helps with a loading around.

The push back with the bottom hand causes the lead shoulder to load. Which ultimately causes it to unload.

Ok. So it is the elbow? Or the shoulder?

So you are saying the bottom pushes the bat handle back toward the back shoulder (catcher)?

NO, I did not say the lead/bottom pushes the handle back toward the catcher. I said I do not think this happens. What I said was if you do it this way, you will load the lead shoulder. We do not want to load the lead shoulder.

What I said I believe happens is the top hand is in control of the tip. Back elbow raising will tip the barrel. There are other variations but this is what I prefer.

I think we do want to load the lead shoulder, in fact we have spent the last few months working on just that - among other things. I think we need to load the front shoulder by stretching it across the upper chest above the numbers while the back shoulder loads the other way. Seen from the rear, the rear shoulder blade moves toward the spine while the front one moves away from it. I'm not getting into abduction and adduction. Easiest way I know to say it.

So you are saying the back elbow raises (tips) it and the top hand controls how much? I agree that if you just raise the back elbow and depending on how far, the barrel may incline forward.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?

The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.

LF,
I think I understand what you are saying, but FEELING it in the hands and DOING it with the hands are two entirely different things. Don't you agree?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
So it can be from any position as long as I don't stop? No need to tip the barrel to the pitcher? No need to do anything with the hands on the handle?

The HANDS cannot move themselves. When I say hands I mean wrists, forearms, and hands.

The back elbow supinates (back view of Ted Williams' elbow gives you a good idea). The barrel moves out of plane. He is applying pressure to the hand so that it is felt IN the hands. It MUST be felt IN the hands.

LF,
I think I understand what you are saying, but FEELING it in the hands and DOING it with the hands are two entirely different things. Don't you agree?

Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
... I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

**Sidenote**
OK, Low, you have to see the comical irony in what you just said. I know alot of baseball folks and I don't know anyone who likes to talk about how to hit the ball in more detail and with more frequency than you do.
When someone starts going off on an extended tangent about the mechanics of hitting a ball, guess who I think of first.

I don't mean that as a bad thing. There are aspects of baseball that I can talk about all day as well (as evident by 600+ posts ). Just funny.

i.e. - you just capped off your 11th post in this thread with a leading question about another aspect of hitting (stride).

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?

How do the hands add power to the swing? Please use plain English as we have all been doing so far.

How do you know he says that? In what context? What do others say? I'm not here to take a side, I'm here to learn. I don't hate any of them. I have watched some video from most of them and I am smart enough to know they aren't giving away the store for free and a month in this "system" or that is not going to change things to any decent degree. This is a long and arduous process with no easy fixes. Have you ever worked with him and heard him say that for yourself? Who have you worked with and what did they say about it?

How do the forearms and wrists provide power? What do we need to make them do in order to do that?

Being able to explain to others what to do is part and parcel of being a coach. What do you do when they don't "feel" the same thing you do? How do you get an 8 yo to accurately describe what he is feeling and how do you describe to him what he should feel? What should I feel in my hands when I do this "tip and rip"? (Which I have been doing in my own practice since starting this thread and reading your explanations BTW.)

I am not bickering, I simply disagree with much of what you say because I don't think you truly understand what is happening to make you feel what you feel. In other words I disagree with you on some things. I don't hate you. I also don't like mantras and bumper sticker slogans that imply universal solutions. for example: "If you would just "tip and rip" all your problems will be solved. I don't like cookie cutters nor is every player cut out to be Barry Bonds. I rarely if ever read any discussion about what they gave up to get what they have. And there's always a trade off. For example, I think Pujols is a great hitter. he will probably end up being one of the greatest RH hitters of all time. Definitely 1st vote HOF. helluva ball player all around. he also hits into a lot of DPs, inning killers. Trade off.

I talked to two college A coaches in the last week. Just happened to walk into the cage where we were working. they struck up conversations with the kid - after watching him swing. Asked him several questions. Not one of them asked him how many HRs he's hit. They asked about his grades, his defense and his speed. In that order. The things that make you go "Mmmmm".

As for the forward by coiling, etc. Yes, in many (most) [almost all] good hitters there is forward by turning. Sit and turn. Are there precautions? Precautions that should be mentioned when giving instructions to fathers trying to learn to help and spend time with their sons? I think so. Can you think of any directly related to "forward by coiling"? Have you added the precautions (if any) when giving your advice?

What advice would you give a HS player that hit .568 with 23 SB, 4Ks, 7 HBP and 12 BB in 25 games?

I thank you for your civil discussion and patience. It has been a pleasure to discuss this with you and I hope we can continue in the future.

I would suggest you look back through your posts in this thread for inconsistencies in order to improve the organization of your philosophy. "Feel" isn't enough when you are helping others. "Why?" is a question oft asked and must be answered to and by the coach. Read up on Trevor Bauer to get a "feel" for how important this is becoming to today's players.

Coaches,
What is the single most common fault you see in today's young hitters?

There are a few that alot of young hitters do, if I had to pick one it would be landing way too high on their toe on foot strike with their front foot. Most of these hitters try to swing while their front foot toe is still about the only thing that is touching the ground. I think it happens because they are told to land softly with their front foot or they see a toe tap. This causes them to be off balance at times back and at times forwards. It also causes their front foot to open up too much, which cause the entire front side to open up.

The other fault or flaw would be always throwing their hands out for an outside pitch which causes them to use way too much top hand on outside pitches, and conversely pulling their hands in too much on an inside pitch causing themselves to be jammed. Both are because the player does not have a consistent hand path.

Thank you shortnquick. I find the second paragraph interesting in this context.

How young are we talking?

I see it up into some HS hitters and as young as players that have just started playing. More in the younger players however and in the not so successful HS aged players. Young players could have some of those flaws at an early age and have some limited success because the pitching has not developed. The better the pitching becomes and balls start to curve, cut, drop the more obvious this problem becomes.

Agreed. Hence my reference to context to LF above.

Thank you for taking the time.

quote:

Originally posted by cabbagedad:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
... I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

**Sidenote**
OK, Low, you have to see the comical irony in what you just said. I know alot of baseball folks and I don't know anyone who likes to talk about how to hit the ball in more detail and with more frequency than you do.
When someone starts going off on an extended tangent about the mechanics of hitting a ball, guess who I think of first.

I don't mean that as a bad thing. There are aspects of baseball that I can talk about all day as well (as evident by 600+ posts ). Just funny.

i.e. - you just capped off your 11th post in this thread with a leading question about another aspect of hitting (stride).

I do like to talk about it! It's a fact

I try to stay away from science because I want everyone to try to understand what I'm saying. The idea of "hitting the ball" is totally divorced from "What anatomical actions happen to allow the swing?" in my opinion.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Absolutely. The hands, wrists, and forearms are important. They add power to the swing. I know Englishbey says that the hands (meaning the hands only) hold on. Biomechanically, that isn't a horrible description, but it goes against feel. However, the forearms and wrists DO provide power that is felt and transmitted through the hands.

I talk about feel. As do most people. We don't care about the biomechanical motions to a great extent. I want to hit the ball, not talk about how to hit the ball.

I think most of our bickering over the last couple months has been based off of the fact that we're using mutually exclusive terminology to describe the same action.

For example, on the "stride" topic, we both agree there is forward by turning or forward by coiling, yes?

How do the hands add power to the swing? Please use plain English as we have all been doing so far.

How do you know he says that? In what context? What do others say? I'm not here to take a side, I'm here to learn. I don't hate any of them. I have watched some video from most of them and I am smart enough to know they aren't giving away the store for free and a month in this "system" or that is not going to change things to any decent degree. This is a long and arduous process with no easy fixes. Have you ever worked with him and heard him say that for yourself? Who have you worked with and what did they say about it?

How do the forearms and wrists provide power? What do we need to make them do in order to do that?

Being able to explain to others what to do is part and parcel of being a coach. What do you do when they don't "feel" the same thing you do? How do you get an 8 yo to accurately describe what he is feeling and how do you describe to him what he should feel? What should I feel in my hands when I do this "tip and rip"? (Which I have been doing in my own practice since starting this thread and reading your explanations BTW.)

I am not bickering, I simply disagree with much of what you say because I don't think you truly understand what is happening to make you feel what you feel. In other words I disagree with you on some things. I don't hate you. I also don't like mantras and bumper sticker slogans that imply universal solutions. for example: "If you would just "tip and rip" all your problems will be solved. I don't like cookie cutters nor is every player cut out to be Barry Bonds. I rarely if ever read any discussion about what they gave up to get what they have. And there's always a trade off. For example, I think Pujols is a great hitter. he will probably end up being one of the greatest RH hitters of all time. Definitely 1st vote HOF. helluva ball player all around. he also hits into a lot of DPs, inning killers. Trade off.

I talked to two college A coaches in the last week. Just happened to walk into the cage where we were working. they struck up conversations with the kid - after watching him swing. Asked him several questions. Not one of them asked him how many HRs he's hit. They asked about his grades, his defense and his speed. In that order. The things that make you go "Mmmmm".

As for the forward by coiling, etc. Yes, in many (most) [almost all] good hitters there is forward by turning. Sit and turn. Are there precautions? Precautions that should be mentioned when giving instructions to fathers trying to learn to help and spend time with their sons? I think so. Can you think of any directly related to "forward by coiling"? Have you added the precautions (if any) when giving your advice?

What advice would you give a HS player that hit .568 with 23 SB, 4Ks, 7 HBP and 12 BB in 25 games?

I thank you for your civil discussion and patience. It has been a pleasure to discuss this with you and I hope we can continue in the future.

I would suggest you look back through your posts in this thread for inconsistencies in order to improve the organization of your philosophy. "Feel" isn't enough when you are helping others. "Why?" is a question oft asked and must be answered to and by the coach. Read up on Trevor Bauer to get a "feel" for how important this is becoming to today's players.

How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.

Now there are "styles"? I don't care, you choose. I don't care for Bonds, I don't like cheaters, but whatever. I'll do it however you want.

Simply "raising the hands" is now "tip and rip"? Raising the hands with what and what are the hands doing while they are being raised? Is raising the hands the objective or is it a result of something else (more important)?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
NDD, as per my statement in the last post, I will answer your tip and rip question.

First, it helps to know what Tip n' Rip style you're using.

For the Williams/ Bonds style:
It can feel like dropping the hands slightly
Pulling the bottom hand in towards the body
OR
Pushing perpendicular to the handle with the top hand towards the opposite dugout.

For the more subdued styles, it can be as simple as raising the hands.

Now there are "styles"? I don't care, you choose. I don't care for Bonds, I don't like cheaters, but whatever. I'll do it however you want.

Simply "raising the hands" is now "tip and rip"? Raising the hands with what and what are the hands doing while they are being raised? Is raising the hands the objective or is it a result of something else (more important)?

There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.

I didn't say it caused anything. Please explain how "tip and rip" can resolve connection issues?

"Resistance"? Now you're losing me. That is a very bad word to use when talking about trying to move the body efficiently.

"Not difficult to figure out", yet look around. I always laugh when I read these kinds of claims. Hoss, if it was that easy, there would be a lot more people doing it. Hitting a baseball with a bat is the hardest thing to do in sports. A lot of world class athletes have tried and failed.

I never said the shoulders do I everything now did I? Look at Pujols again very, very carefully.

We aren't talking about checking swings LF. I have already told you in your PM you deleted how Pujols gets the bat flat without using his hands. The others do it the same way. They aren't using their hands to do it LF. Look at the video you sent me of "How to do it right" again. he's not using his hands. "Square the ball up" - direction? You said they add power. How do they add power? Direction and power are two different things LF.

Yeah, Epstein can probably swing a bat. Yeager? Where did you see him swing one?

So Englishbey doesn't have a high level swing huh? Where did you see him swing it?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.

There have always been styles of "tip and rip"? I know there have always been styles of hitting.

Wait now! I thought we were tipping the bat toward the pitcher? Now it's toward the opposite dug out?

So that's all anybody needs to know to have a MLB swing?

Update: I just took a quick try at it. I could do it with my wrists and forearms some, but not my hands. I needed them to .... well never mind.

Did you see Coach Quick's "most common faults", the second one?

You know what I see most? Running the knob at the ball - usually from doing the @#^%$ fence drill. In other words trying to use the hands.

See it all the time. Every day. Horrible fault. I wish somebody could come up with a cue to take their hands away until they learn how to do the important things, then we could add them back in a little at a time, slowly, in order to help them get a better swing...

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There have always been styles.

Here's how to do it (as straightforwardly as I can put it)

1. Place hands even with back breast (3-8 inches away)
2. Pull bottom hand in towards you
3. When bat is "tipped" towards opposite dugout, launch. Don't worry about getting back into plane, the bat will do that as the shoulders come around.

There have always been styles of "tip and rip"? I know there have always been styles of hitting.

Wait now! I thought we were tipping the bat toward the pitcher? Now it's toward the opposite dug out?

So that's all anybody needs to know to have a MLB swing?

Update: I just took a quick try at it. I could do it with my wrists and forearms some, but not my hands. I needed them to .... well never mind.

Did you see Coach Quick's "most common faults", the second one?

You know what I see most? Running the knob at the ball - usually from doing the @#^%$ fence drill. In other words trying to use the hands.

See it all the time. Every day. Horrible fault. I wish somebody could come up with a cue to take their hands away until they learn how to do the important things, then we could add them back in a little at a time, slowly, in order to help them get a better swing...

Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
NO! Lack of Tip n' Rip does NOT cause disconnection. If that's true, then quite a few MLB players have disconnection issues. Tip n' Rip can resolve disconnection, but it has to be done correctly. It helps establish connection between the bat and the rear hip early.

Resistance to the shoulders opening before the hips open completely. Resistance to the hips opening too early.

How would introduce these certain things? I'd tell him how to do them. They aren't difficult concepts to figure out. Coil first, Stretch second, Separate third.

Coil-Stretch-Separate: the MLB swing. Or C o c k- Stride-Swing (whichever you prefer).

The hands are absolutely responsible for effects! Tell me how to check my swing without using my hands. Tell me how to square the ball up without actively using my hands. Tell me how to get the bat flat (quickly) without using my hands.

The shoulders don't do everything. You don't need to "hold the hinge angle". If you're concerned with bat drag, that's the biggest source of it.

I've seen film of Epstein hitting (when he was in the MLB). I've seen Yeager hit. I've seen Paul ***** hit. I've seen Don Slaught hit. To be honest, I subscribe to none of their beliefs in full. I believe in Epstein and Williams the most of those. However, the guy I trust the most posts here from time to time. I've seen him hit.

Englishbey's swing is not a high-level swing. Nor is my swing. There are only 2 or 3 guys on the entire internet who have the high-level swing.

I didn't say it caused anything. Please explain how "tip and rip" can resolve connection issues?

"Resistance"? Now you're losing me. That is a very bad word to use when talking about trying to move the body efficiently.

"Not difficult to figure out", yet look around. I always laugh when I read these kinds of claims. Hoss, if it was that easy, there would be a lot more people doing it. Hitting a baseball with a bat is the hardest thing to do in sports. A lot of world class athletes have tried and failed.

I never said the shoulders do I everything now did I? Look at Pujols again very, very carefully.

We aren't talking about checking swings LF. I have already told you in your PM you deleted how Pujols gets the bat flat without using his hands. The others do it the same way. They aren't using their hands to do it LF. Look at the video you sent me of "How to do it right" again. he's not using his hands. "Square the ball up" - direction? You said they add power. How do they add power? Direction and power are two different things LF.

Yeah, Epstein can probably swing a bat. Yeager? Where did you see him swing one?

So Englishbey doesn't have a high level swing huh? Where did you see him swing it?

I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!

You've seen clips of him where? My guess is you've seen clips of drills. not the same thing is it LF? No they don't. The wrists are one of the weakest joints in the body LF. There is no power being imparted BY the hands. Now if you want to say transferred THROUGH all that, I might be on board. Why is rotation not the most accurate word to describe the actions of the shoulders during a swing in this context?

Can you give a link to these clips of Yeager, I've been unable to find them.

No he isn't LF, you aren't looking close enough. He is not turning the barrel with his hands. Tell you what. Watch it real close, then try to mimic it with out using your hands for anything other than...well you know. See how it works.

No, we don't want to resist, we want to do it in the right order. Muscles don't work good that way. If you do a bicep curl are you stronger if you "resist" with your tricep or if you allow the bicep to work as unimpeded as possible? It's not resistance we're looking for, it's unloading in the proper sequence. Like a chain. Link by link. Now there are times and places for a little isometric tension in order to maintain some things while doing other things. We are not "resisting" the rotation, we are maintaining bat/body alignment as it attempts to change due to the evolution of the swing. If you want the shoulders to lag behind the hips - start them later.

We have gone from "hands add power" to "hands are direction" to "hands (wrists and forearms) add a little power". Interesting. i'll give you a little tip: When you say "Hands" to a hitter, he doesn't think everything from the shoulders down, he thinks past the wrist.


Understand now when I post I am simply thinking out loud. Just because I say "No..." it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. Looking back I can see where it could be construed as me making definitive statements - not my intent. Cool?

One other thing, when you look at Pujols or that video you sent me, remember, "Everything is connected to everything else".

Why don't y'all just exchange email addresses?

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
Why don't y'all just exchange email addresses?

You don't like the thread?

quote:

Originally posted by ironhorse:
Why don't y'all just exchange email addresses?

You know, i have to kind of agree... This entire thread is a back and forth between you two. Maybe you can skype about it or something.

There are a lot of people who can benefit from this thread. It is going along just fine. If some of you other members don't like the thread, then you don't have to read.

All the room on this board and you guys begrudge us one little thread?

CoachB - you have a point. I never meant to offend anyone, and i am sure ironhorse did not meen to either. I have followed all 70+ posts between the two members, and i am sure many others have as well. People can be so sensitive these days.

quote:

Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact.

I would never use this phrase or anything close to it when I instruct. First it would produce a swing that would look like a flipper on a pinball machine as you would have players using too much top hand. Second when you relay to the player that you want them to direct the bat to contact it will slow down the swing as they try to connect the barrel to the ball rather than trusting the correct hand path will produce the desired result. Turning the barrel to assist directing the bat to contact is about the worst advise to give a player.

If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?

Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?

Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"

The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I have seen clips (not the infamous one arm drill). The use of the arms, wrists, and hands imparts a little extra power because of the actions necessary to keep up with the (rotation is the best word, but not the most accurate) of the shoulders.

I've seen Yeager swing in clips.

He is using his hands! As I stated earlier, hands is not the hands only in the sense in which I am using the term. Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact. See my last post for why the hinge angle is maintained.

Resistance is not a bad word, if we're using it in the correct fashion. We want to RESIST the rotation of the shoulders so the rear hip can get ahead. We resist until the oblique muscles contract and force the shoulders around. We resist to build up X-Factor stretch and thus hit the ball harder!

You've seen clips of him where? My guess is you've seen clips of drills. not the same thing is it LF? No they don't. The wrists are one of the weakest joints in the body LF. There is no power being imparted BY the hands. Now if you want to say transferred THROUGH all that, I might be on board. Why is rotation not the most accurate word to describe the actions of the shoulders during a swing in this context?

Can you give a link to these clips of Yeager, I've been unable to find them.

No he isn't LF, you aren't looking close enough. He is not turning the barrel with his hands. Tell you what. Watch it real close, then try to mimic it with out using your hands for anything other than...well you know. See how it works.

No, we don't want to resist, we want to do it in the right order. Muscles don't work good that way. If you do a bicep curl are you stronger if you "resist" with your tricep or if you allow the bicep to work as unimpeded as possible? It's not resistance we're looking for, it's unloading in the proper sequence. Like a chain. Link by link. Now there are times and places for a little isometric tension in order to maintain some things while doing other things. We are not "resisting" the rotation, we are maintaining bat/body alignment as it attempts to change due to the evolution of the swing. If you want the shoulders to lag behind the hips - start them later.

We have gone from "hands add power" to "hands are direction" to "hands (wrists and forearms) add a little power". Interesting. i'll give you a little tip: When you say "Hands" to a hitter, he doesn't think everything from the shoulders down, he thinks past the wrist.


Understand now when I post I am simply thinking out loud. Just because I say "No..." it doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong. Looking back I can see where it could be construed as me making definitive statements - not my intent. Cool?

This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:

quote:

Hands, wrists, and forearms are being used to "turn" the barrel and to assist with directing the bat to contact.

I would never use this phrase or anything close to it when I instruct. First it would produce a swing that would look like a flipper on a pinball machine as you would have players using too much top hand. Second when you relay to the player that you want them to direct the bat to contact it will slow down the swing as they try to connect the barrel to the ball rather than trusting the correct hand path will produce the desired result. Turning the barrel to assist directing the bat to contact is about the worst advise to give a player.

I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

quote:

I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:

quote:

Originally posted by HittersCount:
What makes a good hitting Coach?

Good question. A good hitting coach has the same relative qualities as any other type of coach, teacher, instructor, etc. The ability to understand the student as an individual and get that student to understand the message (lesson) on his/her terms. Ted Williams was one of the greatest hitters... i wonder if he would be able to explain his hitting concept to a 14YO baseball player on a level that they could understand.

I agree with shortnquick... be careful what you post as far as instruction is concerned. Be aware of your audience and try to teach to the lowest level... if teaching is what you are trying to do here.

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:

quote:

I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.

I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by shortnquick:

quote:

I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

Hitting blogs or forums are great but also dangerous. Many times the words and phrases used without proper demonstration could confuse and even be detrimental to a players swing. I have been around the HS web reading for years. I do not have tons of posts. I have never posted in the Hitting section until I read several of the posts in this thread. I posted under this thread because what LF might be doing with his swing to be successful might not be coming across correctly in his posts. It can't be. Not the way I am reading some of them anyway.

I posted just because the danger that could be done to a young hitters swing if a coach or Dad reads and tries to implement what LF is saying. Trying to instruct what he is saying will cause too much top hand, along with some other problems. LF do not confuse this with me saying you use too much top hand. You probably do not I wouldn't know so I will not make that assumption. But the way you are describing what you are doing can really mess up a hitters swing.

I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?

After reading the last 5 pages, I would rather not, and will not. I posted because I just wanted to caution readers, coaches and dads. I did not post to get into a discussion with you that unless we were standing next to each other in a cage would ever be beneficial to me, you or anyone else reading.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?

Honestly Low, i cannot. I have never heard the term before. I can try to visualize it, but i don't know if i am visualizing it correctly.

Turn the barrel - rolling of the wrists maybe? I really dont know. And that is the point people are trying to make here.

At least a partial value to this thread is how individuals approach the topic of hitting. Regardless of whether there are two or twenty, the rest of us can benefit. I understand exactly where NDD is coming from and I understand the perspective Low Finish is trying to convey so reading both of their thoughts is interesting to say the least. If I were a dad who had not coached much at all, then I might get lost. However, experienced coaches should be able to follow both schools of logic. What I respect most of all is that they are discussing this issue with a lot of respect toward each other. JMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
If the thread is essentially dialogue between ONLY two interested parties, why wouldn't you just PM or utilize e-mail?

Why does the thread bother you?

"Essentially"? How many others does it take?


HVP made some excellent posts in this thread, as has coach Quick. Is just reading enough, or do they have to post? We can count you now.

"Views: 1138"

The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.

How is it inconsiderate if all you have to do is not open it? Inconsiderate would be carrying on this conversation in a thread you started. Have a nice day

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.

Nope. You've got it backwards

CoachB - PM sent.

My previous comment about this thread were offensive to some. Many of us who have been on these various websites know the history of some of the discussion between NDD and Low Finish among others. I did not intend to offend anyone.

With over 3,000 posts on this site, most know me and know that had I intended to insult someone, I'm pretty straight forward in doing so. I want to make a public apology to anyone who is offended.

hsbaseballweb used to have some great debates on hitting. Over time, that died down due in part to the "hitting wars" and in part to a perception that moderators (me) killed the discussion. This debate between NDD and Low Finish is great for the site. I hope others can contribute and keep the discussion on the topic instead of getting personal. JMHO!

quote:

Originally posted by bballdad2016:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I don't understand where you're coming from. Can you explain what you think I mean by "turn the barrel"?

Honestly Low, i cannot. I have never heard the term before. I can try to visualize it, but i don't know if i am visualizing it correctly.

Turn the barrel - rolling of the wrists maybe? I really don't know. And that is the point people are trying to make here.

Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
hsbaseballweb used to have some great debates on hitting. Over time, that died down due in part to the "hitting wars" and in part to a perception that moderators (me) killed the discussion. This debate between NDD and Low Finish is great for the site. I hope others can contribute and keep the discussion on the topic instead of getting personal. JMHO!

Thank you, I will do my best to keep this a content related thread.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

You're confusing the hands and the arms. Knob to the ball is not a hand motion. Knob to the ball is an arm powered motion. Top hand swivel is a hand motion. Since it happens (basically) simultaneously with the lower body action, the hinge angle is maintained.

You can tip it towards the pitcher or the opposite field. Either is acceptable.

Vlad does it towards the pitcher. Williams did it to the opposite field.

What about it?

No LF, I'm not confusing anything. they are given the cue "HANDS!" and that is the result. You keep going on about this top hand swivvel, did you look at the videos very closely? They aren't "swiveling" there hands, even in the video of the guy you sent me with the blacked out face as doing it right. They are doing one thing with their hands.

Ok, so either way we get the same result? The same body alignment can cause either one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.

Nope. You've got it backwards

No, I don't. I hate to say "Try it to see it" but that's what you have to do.

Tewks (who hopefully will join in) says "Knob to the ball, hands are doing nothing. Barrel to the ball is a hand movement." or something to that effect.

If he's reading, I hope he chimes in on this topic.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.

Good video. Problem is, he isn't doing it with his hands like he thinks he is. He is right about what is happening, but not about what is doing it, sort of like you. Even when you throw the barrel at the ball, the knob (and therefore hands) still travel in that direction - a lot of it is a difference in degree. Uncocking is what I was taught to call it and it isn't done with the hands. I can (and just did) get to that very same place without doing anything at all with my hands. Except...well, you know...

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.

I will conceded the point that what is commonly called "shoulder rotation" is actually the trunk if that is your point - are the shoulders part of the trunk? What is considered "trunk"?

By your definition of "hands include wrists and forearms" - I could be on board. But ambiguity serves no one in most cases. I never said the "hands are dead" - holding on to the bat is doing things. Yes, they do things, I just think you are attributing to them results for which they are not responsible.

No, Pujols is not turning the barrel with his hands. If he were in the waiter's tray set up he is using, it would be very easy to see. And it isn't. No, he doesn't stop - on that we agree and I agree that it is a good thing to not stop. Again, how do the hands add power when they are distal to one of the weakest joints in the body?

Where have you seen full swings by Steve Englishbey? Can you provide a link please?

So starting the lower body and then when they decide to swing engaging the upper body is not starting the upper body later than the lower body? You've lost me.

I'm glad we are on the same page as far as my posts.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

WHAT? "autopilot"? Where did this come from?

quote:

Originally posted by CoachB25:
At least a partial value to this thread is how individuals approach the topic of hitting. Regardless of whether there are two or twenty, the rest of us can benefit. I understand exactly where NDD is coming from and I understand the perspective Low Finish is trying to convey so reading both of their thoughts is interesting to say the least. If I were a dad who had not coached much at all, then I might get lost. However, experienced coaches should be able to follow both schools of logic. What I respect most of all is that they are discussing this issue with a lot of respect toward each other. JMHO!

Thank you Coach, it is greatly appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
No, I don't. I hate to say "Try it to see it" but that's what you have to do.

Tewks (who hopefully will join in) says "Knob to the ball, hands are doing nothing. Barrel to the ball is a hand movement." or something to that effect.

If he's reading, I hope he chimes in on this topic.

Yeah, I think you are. I am trying it LF. "Barrel to the ball" is not a hand movement LF, that is where we disagree. I can do it very easily without doing anything with my hands except...well, you know.

I would love for Bobby to participate, I think he is a sharp guy with a lot to offer.

Sorry about the answer before to this one, I was trying to do it from my phone and I'm not good at that.

quote:

Originally posted by Prime9:
The subject of hitting is always a topic of interest to me. I'm sorry that I didn't feel the thread or comments were enlightening. Just wondering why you two didn't continue your personal diatribe in a more personal, considerate mode?

I don't care one way or the other but it's the same question I would ask of someone having a very LOUD personal cell phone conversation in a public place; like a Movie Theatre or a Restaurant.

BUT, after reviewing that you, in fact, opened the thread under the title you wanted to talk about, I stand corrected. You certainly followed Board posting decorum ... so, should have kept my mouth shut.

If it was the thread title that offended you, all you had to do was say so. I changed it, but if the current one doesn't suit your needs, just let me know. I will not put LF's name in the thread title, that is called a "call out" thread and wouldn't be right. LF, and the others, are participating of their own free will. If it dies, it dies.

Yes, this is generally a public board. Fortunately it is is divided into threads of interest that can appeal to one or many. Beautiful.

Is this "board decorum" somewhere I can read it? Does it say anything about the thread starter being able to select the topic and kind of steer it?

I am sorry you don't like the thread, but I do and I am just as much a member here as you are until the powers decree otherwise. There are a lot of threads on here I don't participate in, but I would never begrudge the people that do the opportunity to do so. I am also sorry I have been unable to "enlighten" you, but I am not here to enlighten anybody. As I very clearly stated in my post, I am here to learn.

Have a nice day.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

LF, I was reading back through to make sure I didn't miss anything while I was getting caught up. Can you explain these results please?

quote:

Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

Also LF, you didn't address this. It's just kind of hanging out there. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!

Ok, I did it. When I do it with my hands, I get an exact image of the video you sent me (PM still gone BTW) of how not to do it. We used to call that "dumping the barrel" - I still do. Now, when I do it by raising the upper front arm into shoulder plane and dropping the back elbow into the slot (and not doing anything with my hands except...well you know) guess who I look like?

Pull up with one hand and down with the other on what?

Didn't you say before the elbow turned toward the opposite dug out?

How many planes of rotation are there?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcnKn2dP9ow

Just watch the video. He tells you the difference between arms and hands.

They are swiveling with the top hand. After the elbow comes down because of what BOTH hands have been doing.

Good video. Problem is, he isn't doing it with his hands like he thinks he is. He is right about what is happening, but not about what is doing it, sort of like you. Even when you throw the barrel at the ball, the knob (and therefore hands) still travel in that direction - a lot of it is a difference in degree. Uncocking is what I was taught to call it and it isn't done with the hands. I can (and just did) get to that very same place without doing anything at all with my hands. Except...well, you know...

It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
This is shoulder rotation: http://tbpiukgroup.homestead.com/files/stretchsh.jpg

The hands do things. They aren't dead, and they certainly aren't only holding on. I don't have a link to Yeager's clips, the site that hosted them was taken down.

He (assuming that we're talking about Pujols or the player in the PM) is turning the barrel with his hands. There is no doubt in my mind that he is. He isn't holding them back and letting the shoulders bring them around. He doesn't stop to make everything whip out. The hands add power and direction.

No, I've seen full swings. I've seen a few drills as well.

We ARE resisting the rotation to create a stretch of the obliques. It's the only way the hips can get ahead. Not by "starting later", but by starting and then using hand/arm actions to keep the hands back. MLB hitters start the lower body to move out. Then, when they decide to swing, they engage the upper body.

I know you aren't attempting to make definitive statements.

I will conceded the point that what is commonly called "shoulder rotation" is actually the trunk if that is your point - are the shoulders part of the trunk? What is considered "trunk"?

By your definition of "hands include wrists and forearms" - I could be on board. But ambiguity serves no one in most cases. I never said the "hands are dead" - holding on to the bat is doing things. Yes, they do things, I just think you are attributing to them results for which they are not responsible.

No, Pujols is not turning the barrel with his hands. If he were in the waiter's tray set up he is using, it would be very easy to see. And it isn't. No, he doesn't stop - on that we agree and I agree that it is a good thing to not stop. Again, how do the hands add power when they are distal to one of the weakest joints in the body?

Where have you seen full swings by Steve Englishbey? Can you provide a link please?

So starting the lower body and then when they decide to swing engaging the upper body is not starting the upper body later than the lower body? You've lost me.

I'm glad we are on the same page as far as my posts.

Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.

That (uncocking) is waaaaay later than what we are talking about. It comes just at contact. After the adjustment has been made.

It's not what is getting the barrel flat (on plane) - that isn't the hands.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

Ahh, I see the problem.

Ok, so here's what you need to do. First, take your hands and bat and put them even with your chest. Fuse your arms, hands, and shoulders into a unit. For sake of explanation, we'll call this "The Triangle".

Now, pull down with one hand, and pull up with the other hand. You've just "turned the triangle" Now, get into your stance. Move away from your hands/do whatever load you do and "turn the triangle" again.

Finally, add in the lower body.

"Turning the triangle" is the same as "turning the barrel".

Note: You are turning it towards the dugout behind you. NOT TO THE CATCHER!

Ok, I did it. When I do it with my hands, I get an exact image of the video you sent me (PM still gone BTW) of how not to do it. We used to call that "dumping the barrel" - I still do. Now, when I do it by raising the upper front arm into shoulder plane and dropping the back elbow into the slot (and not doing anything with my hands except...well you know) guess who I look like?

Pull up with one hand and down with the other on what?

Didn't you say before the elbow turned toward the opposite dug out?

How many planes of rotation are there?

There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
I disagree, because I've seen the positive results in both my own swing and in the swings of several others.

I haven't mentioned it yet, but there's something called "Autopilot" by which time all energy production is over. The bat is continuing towards contact without any additional acceleration. The hands, forearms, and wrists are responsible (in conjunction) with the lower body for this autopilot.

LF, I was reading back through to make sure I didn't miss anything while I was getting caught up. Can you explain these results please?

Speed deeper behind you. Consistent squaring up of balls. Easier to hit high velocities. Easier to adjust to location.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

Also LF, you didn't address this. It's just kind of hanging out there. Thanks.

Let's pull out the YouTube videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me_GC7rRGzM

I'm not the guy in the video.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It is uncocking of the wrists through ulnar deviation (I believe). Sure, you can do it without any action of the hands. It's not high level and you can't adjust by doing that.

That (uncocking) is waaaaay later than what we are talking about. It comes just at contact. After the adjustment has been made.

It's not what is getting the barrel flat (on plane) - that isn't the hands.

Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.

I didn't say it, I was asking.

So now it is "a small amount of power"? Do the hands provide direction in a swing when the ball is belt high middle/middle? I didn't say the uncocking was because of anything, although we have used a heavy bat (pro issue - no numbers) and the rotational force "uncocked" the bat about out of his hands. It is an act, but it isn't done with the hands. You keep saying "hands, wrists, forearms" - I don't think you should do that. And you are leaving out the upper arms altogether - a key component. Why can't you say what the hands do, then what the wrists do, then what the forearms do, then what the upper arms do - etc.? It is quite obvious they don't all do the same thing - they can't. And at the end of the day, if you use the word "hands" as "hands" and not everything from the neck to the tips of the fingers, what do the hands really do in a swing?

Too bad about being banned, I wish I knew which one it is, but don't get in trouble.

"Lower body start or rotate into foot plant" - be careful - are they the same thing?

Agreed, sort of. I don't think it is "resisting" though. Although that cue may work for you and others. The obliques contract after the brain says swing?

Ok, you think it is an oversimplification - that's fine. I think "Hands!" is a gross oversimplification and quite honestly incorrect. Hands do not add power. That is a gross oversimplification. If you say hands provide direction - is that an oversimplification as well? What about the tilt, shoulder plane, etc.? Remember, we are not talking about a "SAVE ME!" move with 2 strikes.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.

I don't disagree with anything except the last sentence. What the uncocking does is turn the knob back into the hitters mid-section (generally direction) from the direction of the pitcher and when done correctly finishes the optimum bat and body alignment by aligning the bat with with the forearm and eventually upper arm into the shoulder plane. We've been working on this a lot because he has a tendency to be behind just a itsy bit with the bat. It isn't done with the hands, it's done with the wrists (mostly). And it isn't about being flat. I think some people call it "whip" and I can understand why that is.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Trunk involves shoulders. I agree with that.

The hands direct and provide a small amount of power. I have stated several times that I mean hands as hands, wrists, and forearms. The "uncocking" that you see (and I see as well) is not just because of rotational forces. It has to be taught in order to make it an effective power source.

I've been banned from the site that hosted the Englishbey swings. The main poster/moderator of that site has been banned numerous times here. If I can find a way on, I'll see what I can do.

I've been choosing my words poorly with regard to that. The lower body starts. "Lower body running start" or "Rotate into foot plant" whichever makes you happier.

The pitch is read for as long as it can be. The brain decides to commit. The upper body starts and the obliques finally contract to bring the resisting shoulders around.

So yes, you could say "The upper body starts later", but I think it's an oversimplification.

I didn't say it, I was asking.

So now it is "a small amount of power"? Do the hands provide direction in a swing when the ball is belt high middle/middle? I didn't say the uncocking was because of anything, although we have used a heavy bat (pro issue - no numbers) and the rotational force "uncocked" the bat about out of his hands. It is an act, but it isn't done with the hands. You keep saying "hands, wrists, forearms" - I don't think you should do that. And you are leaving out the upper arms altogether - a key component. Why can't you say what the hands do, then what the wrists do, then what the forearms do, then what the upper arms do - etc.? It is quite obvious they don't all do the same thing - they can't. And at the end of the day, if you use the word "hands" as "hands" and not everything from the neck to the tips of the fingers, what do the hands really do in a swing?

Too bad about being banned, I wish I knew which one it is, but don't get in trouble.

"Lower body start or rotate into foot plant" - be careful - are they the same thing?

Agreed, sort of. I don't think it is "resisting" though. Although that cue may work for you and others. The obliques contract after the brain says swing?

Ok, you think it is an oversimplification - that's fine. I think "Hands!" is a gross oversimplification and quite honestly incorrect. Hands do not add power. That is a gross oversimplification. If you say hands provide direction - is that an oversimplification as well? What about the tilt, shoulder plane, etc.? Remember, we are not talking about a "SAVE ME!" move with 2 strikes.

See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, I was addressing the very late uncocking through ulnar deviation. You need to at least make people aware of it.

Ted Williams believed you do, and so did the late DMAC/bbscout. Both believed that it needs to be trained.

The hands are (in conjunction with the shoulders and forearms) getting the hands flat.

I don't disagree with anything except the last sentence. What the uncocking does is turn the knob back into the hitters mid-section (generally direction) from the direction of the pitcher and when done correctly finishes the optimum bat and body alignment by aligning the bat with with the forearm and eventually upper arm into the shoulder plane. We've been working on this a lot because he has a tendency to be behind just a itsy bit with the bat. It isn't done with the hands, it's done with the wrists (mostly). And it isn't about being flat. I think some people call it "whip" and I can understand why that is.

Yes, yes, and it's not done solely by the hands, the entire forearm/hand/wrist complex is responsible.

The plane of the bat relative to the shoulders is not an absolute, but it appears in 99% of swings.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?

Emphasis mine: No. I absolutely positively do not agree with that at all. And that's the problem. Telling people that does nothing to help anybody. Trying to use the hands to control the upper body gets young hitters in more trouble than anything else. That is the very essence of this whole discussion. You think your personal experience tells you that. We haven't seen you swing so one of two things is happening. Using the hands that way is the easy way out, it is not part of a high a high level swing. The only thing that moves less than the hands is the head. No. No. A thousand times no. It is very easy to see that the statement is incorrect looking at any good hitter or even the videos you sent me.

What drill did you post? I missed it.

Proper sequencing, proper movement patters get the lower "ahead" of the upper. Not the hands.

1. Not in my case. There are studies.
2. Right.
3. Ok.
4. Sort of. It is not necessary to counter-rotate the lower half to hit the ball well. It is not bad to do it if done properly (i.e. not counter-rotating the upper half while doing it.) it is also possible to hit the ball well, even in a game situation, from a static set up and simply sitting and turning from a heel drop.
5. Sequence must be correct.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
Yes, yes, and it's not done solely by the hands, the entire forearm/hand/wrist complex is responsible.

The plane of the bat relative to the shoulders is not an absolute, but it appears in 99% of swings.

It's not done by the hands at all. But ok.

I'm not sure what you mean by the last sentence.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.

What are the two planes of rotation we should be concerned with?

Oh, and I need to make something abundantly clear - I do not speak on behalf of, for, or anything else of any instructor on the planet. These are my thoughts and understandings (and misunderstandings) not those of anybody else.

Do not judge any instructor's work except by his own work, not what somebody says about it on the internet.

Interesting video

quote:

Originally posted by LAball:


Interesting video

I agree. I think there is some potential in the drill.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

See, I think if we were on a field somewhere we'd be able to show what we mean. It's why I hate these forums for technical things.

The hands have (overall) control in terms of the upper body. Some think they can control the lower body, but I don't believe that. My personal experience has demonstrated that.

Hands is a gross oversimplification in some cases. However, by doing drills like the one I've posted, you can just say to a hitter "hands" and he'll know what you mean.

They are the same thing in that both are meant to get the lower body ahead of the upper body.

Let me make a list of things we agree on:

1. The core provides most of the power (in your case, all of the power?)
2. You are holding onto the bat. No questions there.
3. The shoulders move. Though rotation is not perfectly accurate, it's a fair way to describe what's happening. I like saying "the shoulders are being rotatED", but that's a semantic matter.
4. Forward by Coiling/ Turning
5. The lower body leads

Are any of those a point of contention in this debate?

Emphasis mine: No. I absolutely positively do not agree with that at all. And that's the problem. Telling people that does nothing to help anybody. Trying to use the hands to control the upper body gets young hitters in more trouble than anything else. That is the very essence of this whole discussion. You think your personal experience tells you that. We haven't seen you swing so one of two things is happening. Using the hands that way is the easy way out, it is not part of a high a high level swing. The only thing that moves less than the hands is the head. No. No. A thousand times no. It is very easy to see that the statement is incorrect looking at any good hitter or even the videos you sent me.

What drill did you post? I missed it.

Proper sequencing, proper movement patters get the lower "ahead" of the upper. Not the hands.

1. Not in my case. There are studies.
2. Right.
3. Ok.
4. Sort of. It is not necessary to counter-rotate the lower half to hit the ball well. It is not bad to do it if done properly (i.e. not counter-rotating the upper half while doing it.) it is also possible to hit the ball well, even in a game situation, from a static set up and simply sitting and turning from a heel drop.
5. Sequence must be correct.

In response to 4: Yes, up to a certain level. Getting the foot down early becomes a killer unless you continue to load after you get it down.

Yes, the hands DO control the upper body's actions. The hands, wrists, and forearms are the reason that the shoulders laterally tilt. They are working as hard as they can to line up the barrel with the ball. You can't do that with "holding the hinge" or with trying to lag the bat through shoulder rotation.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.

It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What are the two planes of rotation we should be concerned with?

The Z plane and the XY plane.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
In response to 4: Yes, up to a certain level. Getting the foot down early becomes a killer unless you continue to load after you get it down.

Yes, the hands DO control the upper body's actions. The hands, wrists, and forearms are the reason that the shoulders laterally tilt. They are working as hard as they can to line up the barrel with the ball. You can't do that with "holding the hinge" or with trying to lag the bat through shoulder rotation.

There are MLB hitters that don't pick the foot up, just the heel. I believe you may be discounting that there are two types of loads. The body can also be "loaded" statically. And a static load can be hit from - and well.

No, the hands do NOT control the upper body. WHAT? The shoulders tilt because the trunk is tilted and the shoulders are part of the ...you guessed it. If you are using your hands "working as hard as they can to line up the barrel with the ball", you're doing it wrong. Do you know why the strike zone is what it is? And lumping everything from the neck down as "HANDS!" isn't doing anyone any good.

Well we can. In fact we just came back of an hour and a half of doing just that.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:
What are the two planes of rotation we should be concerned with?

The Z plane and the XY plane.

I just stood in front of a mirror buck naked and I don't have a Z or an XY anywhere on my body.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

key words..on a tee...try an outside heater 85 and up.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
There are 2 planes of rotation to be concerned with. If you do it as an upper body unit move it isn't dumping the barrel. It's how to start the top hand swivel early.

The elbow only goes towards the dugout to help pinch the scapula. It moves very slightly. The barrel turns towards the dugout and then is whipped around the body.

Let me put up a gif of the correct way to do it. It's easier to understand that way.



You don't HAVE to have the snap stop.

He isn't doing that with his hands, he is doing it with exactly what I have been saying all along. His rehearsals are sloppy and he doesn't do his stop swing swing exactly like his rehearsals. I understand he is trying to develop rhythm, but still. What is causing that bat to go flat is the raising of his upper front arm and the slotting of his back elbow - not his hands. And he is dumping the bat head in his rehearsals (not the actual stop swing) because it is sloppy.

We did that drill a couple of times last week or the week before. Both of us. I don't hate the drill, but it could be much improved with a better example.

It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

gonna try that with some 12 yr olds I am working with...thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Deltoid/Neck slot drill...

Also LF, you didn't address this. It's just kind of hanging out there. Thanks.

Let's pull out the YouTube videos...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me_GC7rRGzM

I'm not the guy in the video.

I missed this one. Thanks. Now, turn off the sound and watch it and tell me what he is doing with his hands. The answer is nothing. But, well, you know...Thanks for illustrating my point better than I did.

We do that drill every day. It's a great drill. Guess where we learned it.

LF, do you do that drill? I would have thought you would like the version off the back deltoid (we do that one too) better.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

You CAN do that. But all you'll be able to do is "push" the bat with your arms. There's no ability to keep the bat behind the rear hip that way.

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
How do the hands add power? The contribution of the hands, wrists, and forearms is mainly direction. Most power comes from the legs and rear hip. As I said earlier in this post, the hands, wrists, and forearms provide bat direction. If you actively use them, they can help in squaring up the ball.

Tip n' Rip is not a universal panacea. I recognize that. There are players (and I know a few) who have big lower body issues and considerable "connection" issues (using the term that you're familiar with).
Tip n' Rip can help the player learn to control his upper body and can help him create resistance.

In terms of kinesiology, I prefer to use non-scientific terms and feelings rather than being overly technical. I understand what makes the body move and what actions cause the movement.

As for what happens if a player doesn't feel what I'm telling him about... If it's a one on one situation, I'd video him and see if he's performing the actions that I'm attempting to describe. If he is, that's great for him. I'll tell him: "We feel different things, but the same thing is happening". If the video doesn't show the actions, then I'll attempt to explain to him what he's doing wrong and how to fix it.

In a team situation, it's more difficult. There's a limited block of time for the hitter to spend with the coach. I would video the team's batting practice and then see what I could do with regard to instruction when there is time. Unfortunately, there rarely is in a team setting.

As for the HS player, I'd tell him "Good job, let's compare video of your swing to video of an MLB hitter and look at the differences" and if he matches, then I won't screw with his swing. If he doesn't match the video, I'll work on slowly introducing a few key concepts to him. Hopefully, by doing so he will become an even better hitter and be able to hit successfully at the highest level he aspires to play at.

I'll address the Tip n' Rip question in another post

Finally, I wish I could maintain some idea of continuity in my thoughts (and it would probably be beneficial to all). However, I swing a bat quite a bit. When I swing, I video. I keep things that work and throw out things that don't work.

For example:
Top hand swivel WORKS
Handle Torque doesn't
Forward by coiling works!
Tip n' Rip WORKS!
Attempting to maintain the hinge angle (actively thinking about it) doesn't work.

And as for my statement about Englishbey, he's said it numerous times over at another forum (BBF).

Wait a minute now. You are equating "power" with "direction"? Are you sure? if we're going to say direction, I might be on board with that, the problem is that isn't what you said earlier. this is what I meant about organizing your philosophy.

So anybody that doesn't "tip and rip" has issues such as lower body? "tip and rip" resolves disconnection? BTW, what is connection? "Resistance" to what?

If you understand what actions make the body move, how do you explain the video we talked about. You said earlier that the "tip" was done with hand action. Clearly in the case of Pujols and the video you sent me that isn't the case (your PM is gone now for some reason BTW).

Can the actions occur even if you aren't doing the same things? For example is there a way I can "tip" that is different from what you do that will not get me the desired effect? If you've already explained to him how he feels and he doesn't get it, how are you going to explain so he does?

Ok, so we're going to introduce him to concepts slowly to better his swing. Let me ask you this: Have you ever had stats that even remotely compare to those? Are you going to explain those with "feelings" as well? How? Have you ever felt .568?

As for your examples - those things may WORK! for you. Those cues, thinking that the hands add power and are responsible for effects when they are quite obviously not. First saying "power" then "direction" etc. Will they work for most? Or would saying what they actually do do be better for most?

As for the instructor. Again, what was the context? Did you see the post above about the most common faults? How does that tie in to this discussion?

Let me ask you this on a different but related note: You say you swing the bat a lot and work off of "feel" - I believe you. In order to "feel" you have to "do" right?

How many of the big instructors have you ever seen actually hit a baseball with their own swing? Now I'm not saying one HAS to have a great swing in order to teach one - I've been around way too long to think that. Just out of curiosity, which ones? I think that Connor Powers has a very nice swing in his videos. Any others?

Because I'll tell you this, that particular instructor that a lot of people seem to want to belittle, I've seen him hit a baseball off a tee with his own swing using exactly the tools he teaches, and brother, it's a thing of beauty.

Just wondering if there are any others.

key words..on a tee...try an outside heater 85 and up.

I'm going to put up Donny Buster's presentation. I think we'll all be able to learn from it.

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

You CAN do that. But all you'll be able to do is "push" the bat with your arms. There's no ability to keep the bat behind the rear hip that way.

What? No, we're talking about the movement of the bat head and the fact that it isn't done with the hands. Using the hands isn't going to keep anything behind any thing. That is done with the load and connection. He's doing it with what I've been telling you all along. His hands aren't doing anything. "Push the bat with the arms"?

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:


I'm going to put up Donny Buster's presentation. I think we'll all be able to learn from it.

ROTFL - Now that's funny.

Please do, I would love to see a presentation.

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:

quote:

Originally posted by NDD:

quote:

Originally posted by Low Finish:
It's a drill!

The kid was a hammer down swinger before he learned how to get the proper swing plane. I won't reveal his name, but he's on full scholarship at a major D1. The team finished just out of the top 25 last year.

What's causing his elbows to do that? He isn't rotating the shoulders before the hands get flat.
The only logical explanation is the action of his hands, wrists, and forearms.

I know it's a drill LF, I even said that. I'm sorry, but that isn't teaching "proper swing plane". That isn't what he's working on and he isn't doing it with his hands. Like I said, I think the drill has some potential, I just think it would be better if it wasn't sloppy. The rehearsals where he is dumping the barrel, IMO, don't do any good. I think he would be better served by slowing down and doing his rehearsals like he does the actual stop swing.

He is causing his elbows to do that. Not his hands. Look at his hands, they aren't doing anything except well, you know...Hold your hands like you are holding a bat. Now raise your front elbow and lower the back elbow into the slot. Don't do anything with your hands or even wrists. Come back and tell every one what happened. Where did the imaginary bat head go?

Here's a general rule of thumb, any time you think distal is controlling proximal, question it.

You CAN do that. But all you'll be able to do is "push" the bat with your arms. There's no ability to keep the bat behind the rear hip that way.

What? No, we're talking about the movement of the bat head and the fact that it isn't done with the hands. Using the hands isn't going to keep anything behind any thing. That is done with the load and connection. He's doing it with what I've been telling you all along. His hands aren't doing anything. "Push the bat with the arms"?

come on finish..lets keep it simple..the "hand" tip promotes seperation and keeping the hands back and loade while moving forward..Kids tend to step or coil AND bring there hands with them,,the tip stops that..the barell tip alos makes it pretty **** near impossible to to take the knob directly to the ball..the tip almost assures you of proper barell path.If a kid can do this he stands a chance at higher levels..you know it and i know it..

quote:

Originally posted by wogdoggy
come on finish..lets keep it simple..the "hand" tip promotes separation and keeping the hands back and load while moving forward..Kids tend to step or coil AND bring there hands with them,,the tip stops that..the barell tip also makes it pretty **** near impossible to to take the knob directly to the ball..the tip almost assures you of proper barrel path.If a kid can do this he stands a chance at higher levels..you know it and i know it..

You know it and I know it, but many don't.