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I believe that healthy non-attacking debate is good and I disagree with the closing of the previous post on the Oklahoma baseball situation.

I do not believe it is OK to have racist coaches or make racist statements at any level of any sport.

Several years ago during the Spring of 1995 I was a sports writer in New York City. I wrote a story about then-St. John's University coach Joe Russo being charged with racism during a school investigation.

Here are some of the things he was accused of doing:

1 - St. John's represented the USA at the Pan American Games that year because it was during the college season. The Red Storm volunteered to go play in the Games.

Russo took all his scholarship players, but one, and several non-scholarship players as well. The lone scholarship player not attending the event was the only African-American player on the team.

2 - He has used a racial slur when he and an African-American girl collided while they were both jogging on a cold wet day in New York City. He allegedly called her a n----r and other things.

3 - When asked if he thought his coach was a racist the player replied very quickly that he didn't think his coach was a racist...he knew he was a racist.

There is a lot more to the story, but you get the idea. To the credit of the staff at St. John's I was leaked information that helped get this story onto the front page of the paper. However, to their discredit the schoool administration did not force this coach to resign until after the fall season was over in 1995 - and that was due to pressure from the NAACP.

IMHO people like that do not need to be coaching at any level. I was brought up not to hate people because of their color and find the support for the Oklahoma coach by some posters very questionable and to be honest very scary. I am completely in Dad04s corner on this issue.

And for the people who believe this was an issolated instance - that is ridiculous. The coach made the comment to two different reporters of whom he does not even know very well. I'll bet he has made it to many others as well.

If the resignation was forced I commend the Oklahoma administration for acting properly and quickly. Think about it this way, if a college professor used the same word to describe a student he would be fired right away - no matter how much tenure he had.
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quote:
...Think about it this way, if a college professor used the same word to describe a student he would be fired right away - no matter how much tenure he had.


If this were true and justice was administered equally it would be difficult to argue with you. But, it is not true.

BTW, a tough topic, maybe the most difficult topic, discussed well, without incident, yet cvsting has to show his authority.

How tall are you?
Last edited by Teacherman
I am not condoning the coach’s choice of words but I think we all know what he was trying to say even if we aren’t supposed to talk about it. We can’t publicly admit that young back men in a much higher percentage are leading a life that is a drag on society. How can we fix the problem if we can’t admit there is one? Not being able to talk about it doesn't change the fact that way too many young black men are being raised without a father. Too many are unemployed because they chose not to become educated. Too many choose to do drugs. Too many choose to make babies out of wedlock. Too many become divorced and too many choose to live a life of crime in greater proportion to their numbers.

I don’t see the problem as being as black and white as Jesse Jackson and others seem to want to make it. I see it being more of an issue of good people not wanting to live next to bad people. Decent people of all colors would prefer to not live next to unemployed, uneducated gang banging, woman demeaning, drug infested predators. (You know the kind of people and lifestyle gangsta rap glorifies)

Right now there are a substantial percentage of young black males who neither decent white people nor decent black people would want for neighbors. There’s also plenty of “White Trash” that neither decent black people nor decent white people want to live next to either.

It’s all about choices and not excuses. Young people of all color need to choose to stay in school, choose not to do drugs, choose not to steal from others or to cause them harm. This country needs more leaders like Condi Rice’s, Colin Powell’s and Clarence Thomas’. And leaders like these need to come in all colors.
The debate is a good one and important to our entire society. cvsting was way out of line is closing the topic.

As for me, I don't see as how the OU administration had a choice. Cochell is not the youngest guy and probably grew up in an area where his words were accepted. They cannot be any longer. I do hope he gets another chance somewhere and soon. I cannot imagine he has not learned his lesson, but at what price?
How about another spin

The remarks were supposedly made off camera and in normal discussion between coach and the ESPN reporters--I am not condoning the remarks but what gives ESPN the right to air the remarks when they were not part of an interview etc---ESPN of late has truly become "spicy" in their reporting--this is sort of a tattle tale thing--

Does this mean that you and I can have our conversation aired on ESPN if their peoiple overhear it.

Now I know why some players wont talk to the press
Last edited by TRhit
TR:

That's exactly what it means, especially if you are the coach and you are speaking directly to the media and you understand from the start that you are representing your entire school, not just yourself.

But do the math yourself. Cochell is 65. IF he grew up in the south, that would have been in the 40s and 50s. The south was an extremely racist place when I grew up there in the 60s. In the 40s and 50s, it was nearly the entire nation. I'm not surprised at what he said and I don't doubt he meant it, which means he had absolutely no business coaching at a state university supported by dollars paid by taxpayers of every race. I guarantee it wasn't the first time he made such remarks, either.
I have a feeling there is more to the story than the coach is a 65 year old racist but we probably won’t hear it. As I mentioned previously it is that taboo subject that people with either more brains or less balls than some of us will even touch. This is perhaps evidenced no better than when a moderator quickly shut down the previous related thread.

Why has the coach been silent? Has OU paid him off to simply go away?

I would like to hear from the coach. If after hearing him we learn he is indeed a racist, then off with his head.

I would hope that he would regret his choice of words but I’d like to hear if he has something that might be worthwhile to move this important subject forward.
Last edited by SBK
quote:
I have little respect for media writers to begin with as they will turn over every rock or pebble for a story but if this was just conversation between individuals what gives ESPN to run with it

That is what bothers me


"Shoot the messenger" rationalizations. If I don't like programming I change the channel.

The bottom line is that no one can coach at a public institution with that vocabulary. If a private school wants to hire him that is fine.

I know a high school coach who thinks its wonderful to single out black players because of their skin color. He believes blacks don't make good pitchers because the ball shows up better coming out of their hand. Gods truth.

That cretin lost his job too.
Last edited by Dad04
Will:

It is not so much a commentary on this particular coach or individual, but on the culture of the south. I lived it and (based on what the man said at least twice) it is pretty clear where he is coming from and the culture in which he was raised. I have heard it many, many times and more often than not in the ugliest and most derogatory of terms. And, the fact is, Cochell's inferences are as derogatory and bigoted as it gets.

As for ESPN, it is the media. That is what they do. I understand that most folks who do not deal with the media every day would have the point of view that is being expressed here. But Cochell is a professional at this and very acclimated to dealing with the press. Not only should he have known, he did know and I bet he would tell you that himself.
I can't speak for ESPN or the broascast media. I can tell you the rules under which I play when I write.

If I'm there in a professional capacity, everything said is on the record unless we mutually agree beforehand that it is not. If I hear it, see it or learn it, it's up to me and my superiors whether or not to write it. If is has news value, meaning we think folks need to or will want to read about it, we're writing it.

If I'm there in a personal capacity, as I am when I watch my children, everything is off the record, regardless of what I hear, see or learn. And I will not allow myself to be a source for any story in this way. In fact, this year I asked that a booster club meeting I attended go to executive session just so I could ask a question that came from a media mind, but a parent's heart. I did it so the answer was off the record not only for me, but everyone else.

I'm not saying this to do advocate any chest-beating morality. And I know some folks will disagree with my rules. But I write this to give folks a sense of what is at play in this discussion about my profession.

If you come away with the belief that a journalist's job often stinks, you're right.
Last edited by OldVaman
First of all the coach was stupid for making the statement(s) and is an embarrassment to Oklahoma just as Senator KKK Robert Byrd is an embarrassment to the Democratic Party for also using the same word. No outcry about Byrd and he still sits as a US Senator representing a lot of African Americans from West Virginia. But Jemaz and SBK have brought
up a different angle about this incident.

Jemaz says that ESPN is the media and anything they hear of note should be reported.

Really? How about something their wife tells them in private? How about their golfing buddies after a few rounds on the 19th hole? How about the inlaws at Thanksgiving? How about a coach having a casual conversation before the cameras are rolling?

There is a line and that line should be "This is for the record" or "The interview is now
beginning". Oklahoma's coach was wrong and stupid for the remarks he made and has suffered
the consequences for his actions but I have been in Major League locker rooms and have heard much worse back and forth between white and black ballplayers that never made the news because writers, coaches, and players knew that nothing was meant to demean each other. It was all in good fun and everyone took it how it was meant. Writers now wonder
why players clam up when they approach-right. Is there any question?

Again, Oklahoma had no choice in the matter,IMO, but why is Byrd still a Senator?????
Moc:

I agree on Robert Byrd, but that is an issue for the voters of West Virginia. Are you surprised that he remains a senator?

As for the press, I am sorry to tell you, but that simply is not how it works -- anywhere -- and I was a reporter for a decade and have worked regularly with the press in Congress and in the corporate world.

It may not be what I want it to be or what you want it to be, but, as OldVaMan said, it is what it is and it is not going to change any time soon.

And, as I said above, Cochell knows this. He let his guard down when he should not have and in a way that maybe was predictable (maybe not) but was certainly stupid. He is paying the price to the hilt. I hope at 65, for his sake, that he has qualified for retirement benefits.
I'm with Dad04 on this. The whole thing sickens me. I am a relocated yankee living in the south and I hear comments made like this from "well-meaning" people frequently. To suggest that what he said was in some way a compliment shows how deep rooted the bias is.

The comments were, without a doubt, the dumbest remarks conceivable for a coach in his position. To blame ESPN for reporting the story should be the least of our worries. The comments should never have been made. Period.

Thank goodness they finally removed the Confederate flag from our state house. Good grief!!
I understand the people of WVa voted Byrd in, my question is why hasn't pressure been put on him to resign by fellow senators and constantly hounded by the press? Double
standard. A mistake is a mistake and it has no color or political persuasion. One is pressured to resign and the other is not. Although, I would think a Senator has more influence on our society and our youth than a college baseball coach. Maybe not, huh? Confused
quote:
A mistake is a mistake and it has no color or political persuasion. One is pressured to resign and the other is not.


I am sure Senator Byrd supporters would say he was in the Klan 60 years ago and times have long since changed.

Coach Cochell spoke with ESPN last Friday afternoon.
Last edited by Dad04
Reading threads such as this always makes me wonder which posters themselves have let remarks slip that they didn't intend at all to be offensive. I know that I've heard various people say:

"He Jewed me out of..."

"...Dirty Jap Trick!"

etc. etc. It seems that we are all good at passing judgement on others. Too bad we haven't been reflective enough of ourselves. I believe that we are all victims and beneficiaries of our environment. It is a two edged sword. Sometimes we simply say things that we don't mean about things we would never support. That is called being human. I don't consider the one statement by a man as highly regarded as this coach as proof that he is a racist. I simply believe he made a mistake. I would bet that he was as horrified as anyone else when he realized what he said. Everything here is JMHO!
If the coach had said, "there's no hip-hop gangsta in him", is he still out of a job? I heard an intersting discussion of the double standard the other day on sports radio. A black or African American if that's preferred NBA analyst was discussing European American JJ Reddick of Duke. He was praising Reddick's improvements in his athleticism as evidenced in his taking people off the dribble and defensive improvements. The analyst said a lot of NBA analysts refuse to look at a white player as anything but a spot up shooter. Is this type of thinking less reprehensible than the OU coach's?
In my opinion, we often look at sports figures with higher esteem than we do politicians, even United States Senators.

So when they screw up, we turn on them, hard and fast.

A politician gets a DWI or is caught doing something else naughty, is often takes months for any sanction to be imposed, if one ever is imposed.

If it's a sports figure, the pressure is on usually starting the next day.

Ask yourself: How many politicians have fan clubs? Do we have an equivanent of a hot stove league for CEOs of major corporations? Does the "Supreme Court winter session" make folks as sentimental as "pitchers and catchers report?"

I submit that sports in general and baseball in particular spawns a faster and more intense discussion of real-life issues than just about anything in the so-called real world.
Coach Cochell was wrong for what he said but I wonder if he was made to resigned because he said both honkies and the "n" or just because he said the "n" word.

Many say he mad a generalization about the black race but he also made a generalization about the white race in the same content.

And in the webster dictionary : honky is a noun and is a slang or offensive word towards white people but I guarantee his generalization of white people was disregarded. Which proves to me that our society has a double standarded when dealing with race and we wonder why there is still so much tension among the races, especially in the South.


Scooter P
All of these points on the surface have a basis of logic that I fully understand and at one time supported. However, my thinking has changed. This change is highlighted primarily by two things:

1. My observation that the integration of schools in America has worked to bring about a society that is far more color blind (especially among those who have attended integrated schools from Day 1), and

2. If whites had been enslaved and then treated so poorly in nearly every way rather than blacks, we would have a different comparison here. There is a theory that says a group that is the at-large victim of racism by the much larger majority cannot by definition be racist itself. If you look closely, it is hard to argue with that. So, yes, it is far worse to use such commentary when discussing black players than discussing white players because in the discussion of white players it is in essence meaningless.

Of course we are all better off if we are all just people, which Coach Cochell seems not to embrace as evidenced by his own words.
Last edited by jemaz
Jemaz,

I understand what you are saying but being a racist or using a racial slur is the same thing no matter what a race's history is or was. It should not be a one way street when dealing with people and if we are going to punish one for using such demeaning words, then we need to start punishing everyone.

I was listening to a sport talk show yesterday and one of the host was black and he made a good point. He stated in more words than one, that if someone lets a word offend them that much, then they are just as bad off as the person using the offensive word.

Scooter P
This is a subject that is a real issue for me.

Do I think that the coach was wrong in using the N-word even though he was paying a compliment to his Black player?

Yes! He was dead wrong. For a man of his
stature and in his position, he should have known better than to speak such a word in public even if he thought he was speaking "off the record", especially since he really did not know the reporter. (One would hope that he would never use the word even in private, but that is beyond anybody's control.)

Do I think he should be fired?

That's a tough one. I'm torn because he was attempting to give the kid a compliment. Had he been vicious, malicious and vindictive in his use of the word, I would not hesitate to say that he should have been fired. I cannot emphasize enough that he should have known better BUT, in his own way, he was trying to say something good about the kid.

If I were his boss, I would have asked this question, "From all that I know about this man, have his actions up to this point been such that I know he made a mistake and is truly sorry for what he said and is willing to give some thought into how hurtful that word can be for many Black Americans? If the answer is yes, then I would have lobbied for him to keep his job, have him make a public apology and place him in an environment where someone could sit down with him and discuss ways in which you can compliment a black kid without offending half of America. If the answer to my question is, no, and because of his past actions I know that this is a reflection of who he truly is and that's the way he thinks, then I would have fired him.

Many of you might wonder why any Black American would NOT want the Coach to be fired in this particular case. I read that even the kid's father did not want to see him fired, although he was "upset" with the coach. I can only speak for myself. If this coach is older than 55, he lived during an era when the N-word was used out in the open for Black people, on the radio, on television, everywhere! I can't tell you how many times I've been called that word to my face by White people and had to take it. I was raised during the late 40's and 50's in Mississippi. So I understand that if he hasn't done the necessary work to change his filtering system and realize that he is living in a time when that word and that kind of thinking is no longer acceptable in public and that he now lives and works in an environment that is diverse, then he is going to continue to "slip up".

For people of my generation, the N-word is a word that has no place in our society today. Yet, I struggle day in and day out with our young Black men, trying to get them to stop using the word themselves. It sends a mixed message. During a class at our Boys Club, I asked a group of Black youths why they use the N-word when talking to each other. The answer they gave me was a surprise. They said, "If we use the word ourselves, then that takes the sting out of it. And, we're not really saying the N-word, we're saying a different word." In other words, they were trying to say that they have chosen to neutralize the word so to speak. In a twisted kind of way they've almost suceeded in doing this because today the words, "My N---a" is a term of endearment among friends, even White friends. Notice that they have changed the word. For them ,it no longer ends in "er" it ends with an "a", which is actually a new word. In their misguided efforts, they feel that, "If we call ourselves the N-word, then Whites can't hurt us with it any longer." The incident with this Coach is proof that their logic is not working and I will use this as an example when I speak to this group again. My kids know that in our home, that word spelled and used any kind of way, is not acceptable.

I know it is probably a moot point now. But if the guy didn't have a track record of being disciminatory or racist, I think I would have voted for him to keep his job with stipulations.

On a lighter note: I have found that some Whites really do have a problem complimenting Blacks without bringing race into it. The issue with the coach was not an isolated incident. My wife was making a presentation about 4 years ago to a predominantly White group and her presentation went really well. At the end of the meeting while she was gathering her materials to leave, an older White lady came up to her and said, "Your presentation was excellent and you speak so well. You are certainly a CREDIT to your RACE." Now, my wife could have taken this in one of two ways. She could have taken it as a slam against the rest of her race and been offended OR she could have taken it for what it was...simply a compliment (at least in the lady's mind) for a job well done.

When my wife was telling me about it later, she said that she could have pulled the lady aside and told her that to any other Black person her compliment might have been offensive. But my wife didn't do that. For all she knew this could have been one of the few times this lady had garnered enough nerves to say anything to a Black person. Instead, she looked at her, and in the kindest manner said, "Thank you, Miss, for the compliment. I'm glad you enjoyed the presentation." End of story. My wife, who once was a teacher, said that was not the time to try to teach a lesson.

Good discussion, Guys. Keep it going. Believe it or not, learning is taking place for all of us.
Catfish

Thanks for posting. I guess a simple "Really enjoyed your speach, Ma'am" would have worked, just as the coach Cochell saying "He's a fine young man" would have also.

Moc

I missed Byrd's comment. He is an irrelevent fossil that needs to just go away.

Saw TP got another win close by. Good job!!! Smile
Just some points to ponder.

Moc01,

I agree with you that Senator Byrd is an embarassment to West Virgina. There is no questions on that. The people who have elected that Democrat should have their heads examined.

But just because the people in West Virginia are ignorant does not mean the administrators at Oklahoma should be too. But you point is well taken about the fairness of the two situations.

Dad04,

I'm with you 100 percent.

Catfish,

Thank you for you comments. This thread has been very educational for me to see different people opinions without any trash talking. Each opinion, such as the two gentlemen above has been well thought out .

Finally, as a former reporter I will say that unless I and the other person both state that a comment or interview is off the record then it is on the record - simple as that.

A good reporter will know when to use comments like that.

In this case he spoke like to to each of the announcers separately and they happened to compare notes later. At that time ESPN called the school as a courtesy before they ran the story. I see nothing wrong with the way ESPN handled themselves as media members.

Remember, when talking to a reporter you are always on the record unless you both go off the record. If I tell a reporter something os off the record and he does not agree than everything is on the record.
Wouldn't it be nice if we would judge people by their actions and not a slip of the tongue. We are letting PC get out of hand.

I realize there are some who believe a single word can define how someone feels. Myself, I would have to know the man a lot better to determine if he was indeed racist.

I have seen a few racists in my day that are politically corrent enough to NEVER use the "n" word. Being PC enough not to use inflamitory language certainly does not make them any less racist. Their PC behavior in fact makes them very dangerous in a completely different way.

Where is the discussion on how this coach treated his players? After all, that should matter more than anything else. Only they can tell you if he is truly racist, or just a poor judge of what terminology to use.
You sound like the slave owner that claimed "I alway's treated them well".

The inference is that if he saw no "N....." in Dunigan...then he saw "N......" in other African Americans. This is not to mention the sheer stupidity of saying it not once but twice to ESPN reporters!

If we took a poll, how many minority parents would want to play for this guy?..and you are saying he shouldn't be judged by this comment? What exactly do you think Oklahoma's other options were?
To Soxnole and others,

Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said this word?

Should coaches take it upon themselves to resign if they have ever said other derogatory words?

Should any of us ever be hired if we have ever said anything that could have been perceived as being derogatory any time in our life? Have you ever told an off-color joke?

Let me be the first to admit that if that were the case, I’d be unemployed. How about you?

So why should this fellow be held to a higher standard just because he got caught? In this situation he didn’t even intend it to be vicious.

Should college administrators and professors be held to the same standard?

Let the witch hunt begin.
Last edited by SBK
SBK. My answer to you is that Oklahoma had no choice but to fire this man

All of us have faults. All of us have issues.

Most of us do not represent a major Unioversity.

If we did and were as stupid as he, we'd expect and deserve to be fired.

Finally, are you really suggesting that he could be as effective in his day to day job, not to mention recruiting?
The bottom line is that Coach Cochell never had the required character to coach at the University of Oklahoma. Soxnole is dead on, and there is nothing PC about it. I have know plenty of people like this through my life, and they are indeed great and caring people -- with those of their own race. Others, they view as somehow lacking. Which makes me view them as lacking and absolutely intent on never allowing my sons to play in such a hypocritical and ugly environment.

And, yes, unfortunately, far too many of these individuals still exist, and, yes, every one of them ought to lose their jobs -- yesterday. By the way, that would include the present football coach at the University of Colorado.
Jemaz,

I respect your opinion. Do you also hold the same standard to people who use other negative words like, “Honky, F’n Jew *******, Cracker, Fish Eater, etc. etc.”?

By the way, the F’n Jew ******* was reported by a reliable source to be used by Hillary Clinton and I don’t think she meant it as a compliment. Would you let your sons work for her in such an ugly and hypocritical environment?
SBK, the term honky has absolutely no meaning to just about everyone, so I view that as irrelevant. The others are bad and should not be used. But the fact is nothing comes close to the term used by Cochell, and I suspect he knows it.

As far as my sons working for Hilary Clinton, if she were president (and someday she just might be) and it meant they were working for the president, then I would have no problem with it.
"It" has the early lead, and just might hold up as the dumbest statement of the century.

If you say we should pity the man for lack of judgement, you are right. If he was 30-40 years younger, at some private school, he might deserve "sensitivity training" and another chance.

Even college sports loosest cannon Bobby Knight never (publicly) said "that"
Last edited by Dad04
ClevelandDad, Dad04, Coach May, Florida Baseball Guy, and 4luvofthegame, Thanks for the "attaboys". Sometimes it helps to talk issues through like we've all done in a civil manner. Hopefully, someone else who might have felt it was okay to say what the coach said has learned something over the past few days.

SBK, you paid me the ultimate compliment, "...a credit...to the Human Race." I'll take that compliment any day. Thanks!
Jemaz,

Thanks for your reply.

The reason I brought up hillary clinton it is an example of an unlevel playing field in this country and a lot of us are tired of it. You and many others give people like her a free ride but are calling for the death penalty for the coach.

And speaking of an unlevel playing field; if you are a former klansman who is now a democrat US senator, you can say the “n” word and you don’t even need to be a black rapper.

Once again, I am not condoning the coach’s choice of words. It is regrettable and I wish we could all do better, I’m just pointing out the hypocrisy of people’s attitude.

As I said before, I think there are a lot of people and groups who like to use racism to further their own agenda. I do not believe decent people of any color want to have bad people for neighbors. When we start focusing the divide as good people of any color against bad people of any color, we will be heading the right direction.

Catfish, you are welcome.
Count me in as one who agrees that what Cochell said was terrible and uncalled for....but....I also see the blatant double standard applied in today's society.

Does anyone remember what Dusty Baker said last year regarding his Black and Latin players? Something to the effect that they play better during the day when it's hot and the white players play better at night when it's cool...

How and why does this man still have a job?!?! Not only did he say it, but he said it on camera. Do we forgive him because he didn't use any "bad" words?

Or is there truly a double standard when it comes to labeling people bigots and calling for their heads?

Submitted for your discussion....
I had decided not to reply to this thread, hoping my emotions would abate. They have not, so I’ve returned.

Jemaz:

Let me make sure I understand you. You are advocating a zero tolerance policy for racist remarks such as those attributed to Coach Cochell. On the other hand, while you believe the term “F’n Jew *******” is wrong, in your judgment it doesn’t “come close.” I’m curious: Why are you willing to judge one person’s character and bring the curtain down on his career for his use of the “N” word, but have no moral qualms letting your kids work for another who spews an ethnic slur with vile historical connotations? Do you have a continuum of offensive remarks, with racism at one end and anti-Semitism somewhere else? I am as offended as anyone by Coach Cochell’s remarks. But your duplicity is equally insulting.
Hey,
To all of you guys making this a partisan political issue, check that **** (and maybe your brain) at the door of Fox News.

Blaming others to cover for Coach Cochell's ignorance is weak and we wouldn't tolerate it if our children tried this tactic.

Here is the bottomline - In the year 2005, if a coach in casual conversation (let alone in front of the press) can have the N-word roll out of his mouth that easily and that often he has a character problem.

I wonder if Coach Cochell could look this black players parents in the eye and descibe their precious son in those terms?

I thnk he would be ashamed, just as the University of Oklahoma is today.
Couple of things I would like to chime in on. First, as far as ESPN is concerned they grabbed a story and ran with it. For the coach who said it off line, remember one thing, when talking "know your target audience". Second, I despise the "N" word, and have little respect for anyone (regardless of race) who uses it. It is very inflamatory, and shouldn't be used. Just like "redneck" and other like words have no place here. If you can't articulate what you are trying to say without cussing or using those kind of words, you should just be quiet. "Better to let people think you are stupid, than to open your mouth, and validate it". I am glad he resigned, I commend Oklahoma University for their stance on this issue, and College baseball will be better off without this coach. Couldn't he have just said the player was good and an even better person, without getting so negative. We can ALL learn a valuable lesson from this. Stay positive, and think before you speak! Just my opinion.
quote:
Originally posted by Sacto BB:
Hey,
To all of you guys making this a partisan political issue, check that **** (and maybe your brain) at the door of Fox News.

Blaming others to cover for Coach Cochell's ignorance is weak and we wouldn't tolerate it if our children tried this tactic.

Here is the bottomline - In the year 2005, if a coach in casual conversation (let alone in front of the press) can have the N-word roll out of his mouth that easily and that often he has a character problem.

I wonder if Coach Cochell could look this black players parents in the eye and descibe their precious son in those terms?

I thnk he would be ashamed, just as the University of Oklahoma is today.


Some people just won't let themselves understand the point.

I guess there is only one group of people ever discriminated against and only one group of people that discriminate.
Last edited by Teacherman
Sacto,

So who is saying it’s ok for the coach to use these words because others have?

Blaming others, finding excuses and not accepting personal responsibility seems to be the modus operandi of more of the non-Fox news crowd of which you seem to find favor with. A lot of us are tired of the games people play accusing people of being bigots and racists to enable their own agenda but to make excuses when their own slip up.

I have said on more than one occasion that the coach messed up but so have a lot of people. Doesn’t make it right but I think it’s only fair to look at the totality of his life; the context of the offense; and to apply whatever penalty is appropriate to all offenders. This is no different than I would ask for, if you or I were the accused.

If the new standard is for people who may have offended others at some time or another to summarily be fired, then let’s see who among us is left standing after the witch-hunt is over.

As I pointed out, hillary clinton has used derogatory language, as has Dusty Baker, Senator byrd and many others. Should they be held to the same standard or would you prefer a double standard?

I’ve admitted I’ve said things I wished I hadn’t. Have you?
Blazer
quote:
Does anyone remember what Dusty Baker said last year regarding his Black and Latin players? Something to the effect that they play better during the day when it's hot and the white players play better at night when it's cool...
How and why does this man still have a job?!?!


Who did Baker backhand compliment using the N word?

I can't draw a reasonable comparison to legitimize that analogy. But that's just me. Everyone is unique in the world. Everyone has opinions as to others qualities and weaknesses. Some simply choose not to refer to others using the N word.

I just don't think that is asking too much of Big 12 baseball coach, or any other coach.

It won't matter if another 1,000 posts rationizing bad manners appear after this one. I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me.

Catfish, you're welcome.
Last edited by Dad04
This thread is starting to wander and it seems to be starting to get personal.

We need to bring it back to focus.

Unless you have personal, verifyable and specific information that would shed light on anyone's character, you can't say this is a case about character.

This is a case about conduct, and the tone of language one uses in a public, or potentially public, forum.

Character is who someone is. Conduct is what someone does. Unless and until proven otherwise, they are mutually exclusive. Anything else would be the kind of discourse that should get the thread thrown out.

This is a case about a word that has no place in baseball or anywhere else. And this is a discussion about whether the use of this word should have cost a man a job.
quote:
Who did Baker backhand compliment using the N word?


Never said he did...

I think we can all agree that Cochell and Baker's statements were both racist...One has a job the other doesn't.

My point is that the double standard exsists...and this example provided evidence to support my point.

Racism is racism, it doesn't matter if it appears wearing a white hood or if it comes as a "backhanded compliment" both are equally as derisive and wrong.

Hold everyone to the same standard...That's all I'm saying...
Last edited by blazer25
quote:
One has a job the other doesn't.

One used the N word....

That's all I'm saying.

Maybe after 400 or 500 years of political, economic and social domination of the United States, by a different race, when perhaps a coach of that race uses the most derisive term possible to complment a white kid, he'll lose his job too.
Last edited by Dad04
diamond:

As far as I know, only one group has been enslaved in this nation. And, by the way, I don't endorse any of this stuff, but I absolutely believe that that one word is by far the worst. It's a result of our particular and tragic history. Moreover, the vetting process to become president (and on a national scale) is such that if there is a meaningful issue in this regard, it will be fully considered by the electorate.

As far as working for the president, I would be honored to have any of my children working for the president, no matter who the president happens to be. It is the office more than the individual and the real opportunity to make a difference.
Last edited by jemaz
Coach, I'm ignorant?

A 47 year old college graduate, professionaly employed, living in the south, happily married 25 years, boot strapped all the way up, flying around the country, watching my honor roll listed, playoff rostered, true freshman son play for a top 20 team, parent? Coach, I don't need other parents to pay my way to amateur baseball games.

I'm ignorant, and just been insulted by a baseball coach for the last time. The most arrogant, under-qualified, overconfident, in-the-past-living, (genericly)clannish-to-a-fault group of people, with notable individual exceptions, I've ever met.

I got an ego-blind, zero baseball IQ, arm-abusing, collar-jerking, racist, bigoted high school coach canned last year and I'm proud of it. I'd do it again, in a heartbeat. The bad-tempered dullard knows exactly why he got fired and had to move 200 miles to find another $29,000 teaching job, the most he'll ever make until he starts driving a truck. Too bad, so sad. He never used the N word. See, life is fair.....sometimes.

At 47 I take precious little c r a p anymore, but my tolerance from baseball coaches is still zero.

Unbelievable.

Why do I even bother?
Last edited by Dad04
There is hypocrisy in public (and, for that matter, private)life. In other news, the sun came up this morning. This is said in no way to lessen the offense; I only mention it because in any discussion of values and principles an example of another person who seems to be 'getting away with it' can be cited. I don't see that arguement as advancing the discussion. (Particularly with regard to politicians. They get fired by the voters --- it's not a parallel example.)

I've also never much cared for the "we don't know the person" point. I doubt any of us 'know' (or knew) any sitting President, for example, but I'm sure we all have opinions about them. None of us knew Jack the Ripper, but we'd all agree he was a bad 'un. I've never seen Australia, but I know it's there. The discussion isn't whether the coach is a good person or bad; it's whether or not he should have kept his job after his comments. Apparently his employers, who did know him, felt that his resignation was apropriate.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know how that word is regarded in our country. Anybody who uses it, does so at their own peril, and the institution for which he worked found it unacceptable. He didn't have a right to that job no matter what. He chose to cross the line, in front of known members of the press, and defend it as the vernacular of his players. (One can only hope his imitation didn't extend to low-slung trousers and a proclivity for amplified base in his car.)
jemaz,

What if the President happened to be Bill Clinton and your daughter happened to be Monica Leuwinski? (SP?)

I have a hard time calling the coach a racist no matter what he said. It just seems odd that at a school like Oklahoma a true racist could have lasted so long. Besides, why would a true racist recruit Joe? Last time I saw Joe it was pretty obvious he wasn't a white guy.

He made a mistake, it cost him his career and his reputation. I doubt if good people of any race feel the need to execute him. I'd like to think there are those who would forgive him. Oh yea, that's Joe and his dad doing the forgiving. Class is class and I bet this coach loved Joe!

I hate these type of sensitive discussions because of possibly saying things the wrong way.

I'm proud of the fact that we don't see players as any color or race any more. We just see different levels of ability and makeup. Good, bad and ugly in each and every race.

We all know the "N" word is no good. I doubt using the N word even with an "a" rather than "er" on the end is something people should do. I know I'm not going to try it. Isn't it the same word pronounced differently? (southern accent) I do have a problem figuring out the proper words to describe people.

I remember way back when Negro was appropriate. But that changed to Black and then African American. Probably been a few other words used along the way.

This has always bothered me because I don't want to show disrespect to anyone. I kind of liked that Black and White thing. It was so easy and seemed harmless. Then someone told me not to use the word Black.

I was lucky to have learned a long time ago that we all bleed Red. The "N" word is a no no, but it can be used in a hateful way (KKK) or it can be used the way Coach Cochell used it. Neither is good, but one is much better than the other in my estimation. The true racist would use the word in a hateful way.

Just my opinion, don't jump all over me.

Class comes in all races as everyone can witness by reading "Catfish"
To me, the only appropriate use of the word 'ignorance' in this discussion would be for anyone supporting racism or any form of discrimination. I cannot see why the word was used, particlarly to Dad04.

I don't care for Dusty Baker on many levels, includng his 'hot weather' comments. (And don't get me started on his pitcher-handling). He, however, is employed at the pleasure of the Tribune Organization. Were it up to the public, managers would be changed, like sheets, once a week. Wink
PG Staff:

To truly understand, any of us would have to be black. All I know is what I saw for many, many years in the south from "God-fearing, good people" who viewed some people as less than dirt and thought nothing of it. Cochell reminds me of many of these same people.

And, no, none of these people were in the KKK, but they allowed it to exist with their own actions and inactions.

There can be no "better" way to use this particular word because of all it has represented.

I'm not trying to be preachy or to jump on anyone, I just strongly believe that this is unacceptable for any reason and that hardly anything else in America equates to it. And I see a huge difference between Dusty Baker and Coach Cochell.
jemaz,

I agree with you about most of what you say.

I might not understand being a White person, but I do know Joe Dunigan is a Black person. So does he truly understand? Afterall, it was he and his dad that appeared to be the most forgiving.

Would those people you knew down south who viewed people as less than dirt have recruited Joe Dunigan and given him a scholarship to attend their college?

I just get the feeling that some people think this long time coach should FRY! Losing his career and his reputation just aren't enough I guess.

As far as nothing else in America equating to this. I can think of many things that are MUCH worse than what this coach did. And I'd be willing to bet that most people of every race have seen much worse than what happened here.

This was bad... There's been much worse!
FBaseballGuy-Thanks or your response-agree about the WVa/OK comparison.

Catfish-Right on!! You helped me see something from a perspective I hadn't
thought of before.

I think it's great that for the most part we are discussing this sensitive issue
like mature adults and hopefully with an open mind.

I would like to throw something out and see what others think.

I honestly believe it's past time to use the "being enslaved" idea as to
why it is understandable for one race to put down another race. My family didn't own
slaves and I don't know anyone who was a slave. By the way, there were white and black
slaves in America.

As Dado4 stated, "I know right from wrong, bad from good, and trash when I see it. That's just me." Rationalizing that it's OK or understandable why one race can put
down another race because of past discrimination is WRONG no matter how it's sliced.
We need to decry acts of stupity and racism no matter whose mouth it comes out of. IMHO
Moc1,

Well put! Very well put!

We, as an American public need to be outraged when there are Senator Byrd's out there. I applaude Oklahoma, but, like Moc1, I wonder where the outrage is when Dusty Baker makes a racist comment.

I also agree with Orlando in that Baker's case he is employed by the Tribune Company, which owns the Orlando Sentinel for one paper. What does it say about their organization when they allow Baker to make racist comments and not be held accountable? What does it day about the West Virginia voters who elect a racist without holding him accountable? What does it say about Oklahoma whom did hold the coach responsible?

As for Dad04 being ignorant, I do not think that is a fair statement. How can someone who is against racism be ignorant? In fact, I would state that he is more educated than the people using racist words against African Americans.

But whatever your feelings this has been a very educational thread. Let's keep it that way! No personal attacks!
Let me just say this. The coach had to go , he might be a racist he might not be. Because he said what he said he created doubt and once he did that - He had to go. To say that a man is a racist based on the fact that he said the N word or called someone a cracker is just bs. My father grew up in a different time a different era. He grew up in a small southern town and was hired out to local farmers to do farm work and his money went back to his family to pay bills. This was a common practice. He had to quit school in the fourth grade to go to work and support the family as did his other brothers. He was a product of the environment that he grew up in. White kids referred to black kids as Ners. And black kids referred to white kids as crackers. My father left home at 18 and joined the Army and retired after 23 years in the Army. When he got out of this environment and lived fought and raised his family around black people he learned that all they wanted was the same thing he did. That was a better life for his children than he had. He raised us to treat everyone with dignity and respect regardless of the color of thier skin. During my years in the professional world and coaching I have run across all types of people. I have always been leary of the people who are quick to color people something based on one incident or something they might say. Some people say all the right things but there actions do not jive with their words. I will hold my judgement on anyone because I do not know there heart only they do. I will see their actions and their deeds and formulate my opinion on those. I am not condoneing the actions of this coach. He should have been fired for what he said. But that in my opinion does not mean he is a racist. And it does not wipe out all the good he has done for kids for over 30 years. Chill on all the stones being thrown at him ok. He has suffered enough. He has to live with what he said. Sometimes the first person to throw a stone is just as guilty of the actions that the person being stoned is guilty of.
Just for the record, Coach Cochell was raised in Oregon and spent a lot of years in Arizona and California before he came to Oklahoma. I say this only because some comments were made equating his supposed racism to a southern upbringing. That is not the case. No one area of the country can be blamed for racism either perceived or actual.

Also, a lot of posters are making some very bold assumptions about a man whom they have never met. I have only known Larry Cochell personally for about 3 years now, and I won't presume to know his innermost thoughts and values. I will say that I have read interviews where coaches who have known him for over 40 years have said they have never heard any racist comments from him. I would have to believe that these men should have a much better knowledge of him than any of us.

I wish we were privy to the entire transcript of the dialogue that took place between Mr. Thorne and Peterson and Coach Cochell. We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson. Why have they taken this stance when a man's livelihood was clearly on the line? I would like to know what line of questioning may have led up to the unfortunate choice of words by Coach Cochell...I am in no way condoning what he did and I agree with the decision to have him resign but in my heart I believe there is more to this than is being reported. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and if you want to label him a racist or whatever you desire, you have that right...but I will choose to remember him as the kind and caring gentleman who recruited my son to play baseball at the University of Oklahoma, and as a coach who believes that baseball is a means to achieve a college education. It is well known in the OU community that Coach Cochell cares deeply about his players no matter what their race or religion might be. Larry Cochell is a survivor and he will survive this. He has survived prostate cancer and Friday will undergo a heart procedure to repair two severely clogged arteries. My family's thoughts and prayers are with him and I hope yours are as well, no matter what your personal feelings towards him may be. Also, I have lived in Texas all my life and was raised to respect all people of all races. My husband and I raised our two sons the same way. Our son at OU is planning on sharing an apartment next year with Joe Dunigan, a fine young man whom he is proud to call both his teammate and friend.
Last edited by OUBsbMom
Nice post there, lady..............

"We have seen in print a portion of the conversation but not all of it. Of course, ESPN in their infinite wisdom has decided not to release that information even to the University of Oklahoma during the athletic director's investigation of the incident even though he personally requested to speak to Mr. Thorne and Peterson."

I added the italics and wondering if our local journalist want to comment on just printing PART of the story?

Or just what THEY THOUGHT was important or ...catchy....?

It will be interesting to follow this to conclusion.

Even if the coach is a turd, and I doubt that, with the recent record of journalist, I'm betting my money on the coach and I hope he gets some of the journalist's dough or the Dan Rather treatment gets applied to the media moguls.

Do we really want to convict someone based on what we read in the paper or see on TV.

Just because its in the paper doesn't mean its true, does it?
Last edited by FormerObserver
My take. Coach made a stupid comment but shouldn't we take his actions not his words as his credo? Has he demonstrated fairness consistently to all his players regardless of their Race, religion etc. during his tenure? Who is casting the stone? We have all made comments we regret. If we are going to clear out the racists then shouldn't West Virginia dismiss their former KKK Senator? I am an American with asian heritage. I was raised in the deep south of Alabama. I've seen racism during my time. We have become a society of hardasses where when a person makes a comment, they will pay and pay dearly for for being stupid and human. Have you ever said anything to someone that you really didn't believe but said it because you knew it would hurt them? Do you think you should pay with your career if it were to happen again or hope that you could demonstrate that you made a mistake and are willing to change?

Callaway. Slavery was only one issue of the civil war. The Confederate flag means separation for some but it stands for southern ways to me. We are slowly losing alot of the good things that the south used to represent. You cannot know how some feel becuase you haven't lived it and being southern is a way of life. Ask any native Texan about what I'm talking about. The south had alot of wrong and we shouldn't forget that but it also had alot of good.
Enough is enough. To some anything you say and anything that happens somehow a racial spin will be put on it. There are those in this country that have made that an art form. and this is unfortunate. Being called a racist today is becoming common. should he have used the word no. Why because it is offensive. Suppose he had called somebody of Irish Italian Polish the derogotary words that some use. Yes he would be just as wrong. Would there be such an uproar? In a perfect world yes. But we do not live in a perfect world and some feed on others imperfections and weaknesses. I do not know the coach but I believe he would take everything back. this country is obsessed with race. Until we of all races religions can move on we will be stuck on this.

We have a term using the "race card".
cvsting,

Please explain yourself.

I believe that the single most thing that's holding this country back on the race issue is that we can’t freely discuss it.

In this case it is related to baseball and should be free to discuss. If you have a problem with someone's post on legitimate grounds, then do your thing.

If this issue were closed like you've already tried to do, we would not have had an opportunity to be exposed to Catfish's classic post as well as other's thoughtful responses.

PS: jemaz you beat me to the punch. Well said!
Last edited by SBK
quote:
this is one of the more enlightening discussions I have ever seen on the hsbaseball web. It has been remarkably civil and enlightening with important views from many aspects of the issue.



I thought it was(is) an interesting conversation, but I'm not sure I agree on Civil.

I was just trying to lighten things up a bit.
Florida Baseball Guy, You said....
quote:
But just because the people in West Virginia are ignorant.

Bob, being born and raised in West Virginia I have to ask you, do you really feel the people in West Virginia are ignorant or was it just a slip of your tounge?..or...could it be by some stretch of one's imagination that you consider residents of West Virginia a separate race and if so would your remarks be considered racist? While I may not be as educated as you, I don’t consider myself ignorant. Therefore your opinion of my relatives has no affect on me but never the less, you did make those inflammatory, politically incorrect, remarks and you should be held accountable. Maybe you should be fired from the HSBBW? Big Grin
Fungo
TRBooty,

WOW!!! That probably doesn’t deserve a response.

But!!!!

I’ve been involved in baseball most of my life. I’ve coached players of nearly every background, race, religion, etc. As a scout I turned in reports on players of nearly all, backgrounds, nationalities, etc.

There are no character traits that are exclusive to any group of people. I have seen as many white lazy players as I’ve seen black. Actually I’ve seen many more lazy white players simply because there are more white players! In fact, the one group that might be the least lazy (as a whole) on a baseball field are the Latin players. Maybe that’s why there are so many of them in the Big Leagues. I think it has more to do with their environment than anything else.

Good, Bad and Ugly come in all kinds of people from all parts of the world. And so does laziness!

Your comment falls in the “UGLY’ category!
PG Staff,

I was going to just ignor TRBooty, but after your response I felt I had to put my two cents. First of all, I agree with your statement 100 percent.

I absolutely cannot deal with racist individuals. I hate racist words and will not stick around when they are being uttered.

We had a player and parent a few years ago who were country folk. The dad used the "N" word as a verb, noun, adjective, etc. When I finally asked him to stop using that word because I found it very offensive he was shocked. He reminded me that I was white, but tried not to use that language around me or the players.

The thing is that I do not think he is prejudice because he hates African-Americans. It was his way of life for so many generations that he just considers them second class citizens. He just doesn't know any better.

As for TRBooty, I sure hope that he gets banned from this site soon so people like TRHit, PGStaff, Moc1, etc can continue this very interesting discussion.

As far as seeing players by color, any scout who did that would not be a scout very long. PG rates all the juniors in the country and they never mention race in their reports. Why? Because race does not matter in baseball. PG rates you on how you play the 5-tools and not what race or color the player is. If any organization rated players based on race or color then that group would be out of business very quikcly.
Fungo-I, like you was raised in West Virginia, and would have been born there if my Dad hadn't been attending college at Wake Forest at the time. Most of my relatives live there and
plenty of old friends are there as well. I personally was not offended at FBBGUY's statement
about the people. He can speak for himself but I don't believe he meant the people of WVa are
ignorant. Robert Byrd, through the years, has done a lot of good for the state and has helped
a lot of people. A lot of good people in the state know this and keep sending him back to the senate because maybe, to them, he is better than the alternative. I DO have a problem
with Byrd's peers giving him a pass as well as the media. As I've stated before, speaking
in a racially insensitive manner, needs to be stopped no matter where it comes from. There
are no excuses.

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