Recruited Walk On

quote:

They said all positive things saying that they could see him playing as a starter for them at some point.

All 35 on the roster were told this coming in. Find a program where he's loved not where they're interested. If it's not D1 it's not the end of the world. If your son believes he has pro potential he will be better scouted on a D2 field than a D1 bench. If your son is guaranteed a roster spot there's a commitment and obviously he has a chance to start someday. But make very sure he doesn't have to make the team in a fall walk on tryout against a bunch of players told the same thing. Is the roster spot guaranteed for this coming year or could be be redshirted for a year?

Recruited walk on spots are just what they appear to be. “You are not good enough for me to give you money, but I am willing to place a bet on you that you might develop into a contributor or starter. If you don’t, then I move on to the next recruited walk on next year. If you do then it did not cost me anything and you are a bonus to the program.”
Since the program does not invest anything other than time then the risk factor in not making the team is high. It probably also means your son will have a short window to demonstrate his ability or to improve. I would go where a coach really wants you and has a plan for you. I would be very hesitant to go to a program where there is little commitment. That said I do know of kids who have successfully moved from a recruited walk on to earn a roster spot and $$ the following years. You must at least have a roster spot guaranteed for the first year, but even then it is a cr ap shoot IMO.

The two posts above made reference to "If your son is guaranteed a roster spot..." and "...have a roster spot guaranteed..."

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "guaranteed roster spot." Not since I consulted a couple of years ago with the family of a freshman who had a scholarship of at least 50% and who was cut from the team at the end of Fall drills, even though he was still going to have to count as one of the 35 roster spots because of his scholarship.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick at Informed Athlete:
The two posts above made reference to "If your son is guaranteed a roster spot..." and "...have a roster spot guaranteed..."

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "guaranteed roster spot." Not since I consulted a couple of years ago with the family of a freshman who had a scholarship of at least 50% and who was cut from the team at the end of Fall drills, even though he was still going to have to count as one of the 35 roster spots because of his scholarship.

Couldn't agree more with this.

What players are given is a chance to compete. If they fail to perform at a level high enough to make them positive contributors on the field, they'll sit.

If a coach tells you that you're guaranteed a roster spot, be extremely skeptical.

BOF

quote:

“You are not good enough for me to give you money, but I am willing to place a bet on you that you might develop into a contributor or starter. If you don’t, then I move on to the next recruited walk on next year. If you do then it did not cost me anything and you are a bonus to the program.”

(Note: This program is not fully funded; don't know if we are being oversensitive to not being offered a scholarship)

This is what I am afraid of. They will not give him the opportunity to develop. They have no investment and can move on easily.

I believe given the chance he will do well.

I was considering discussing the guaranteed roster spot but I guess that means nothing.

They also mentioned that he may be offered scholarship money in the future. I question that because if he is already there he is unlikely to leave especially if he is playing.

They also mentioned possibly losing a player to the draft, opening up a spot for his position (OF) early. I wonder if I could have them commit to offering him that freed up money if this occurs.

A D1 program that does not fully fund means that the school shows very little committment to that program and the players.

The guaranteed roster spot should be discussed between coach and player, not you the parent. Your son can fill you in. They may sense your support of the program and some coaches play on that.

Even if the player they speak of is drafted it may not be in a spot he likes, it would be his decision to reamain another year and if he was a contributor, he's got the job.

You have been given some great advice here from people who know what they are talking about.

You seem to have your mind made up about your son attending a D1 program. Help him to find a program that believes in him by awarding baseball dollars (d1), and if he is as good as you say, he should be entitled to at least 25%.

quote:

Originally posted by co2013:
BOF

quote:

“You are not good enough for me to give you money, but I am willing to place a bet on you that you might develop into a contributor or starter. If you don’t, then I move on to the next recruited walk on next year. If you do then it did not cost me anything and you are a bonus to the program.”

(Note: This program is not fully funded; don't know if we are being oversensitive to not being offered a scholarship)

This is what I am afraid of. They will not give him the opportunity to develop. They have no investment and can move on easily.

I believe given the chance he will do well.

I was considering discussing the guaranteed roster spot but I guess that means nothing.

They also mentioned that he may be offered scholarship money in the future. I question that because if he is already there he is unlikely to leave especially if he is playing.

They also mentioned possibly losing a player to the draft, opening up a spot for his position (OF) early. I wonder if I could have them commit to offering him that freed up money if this occurs.

It seems to me your son need to decide just how much he likes the school for other than the baseball. . .??? If there is no overwhelming desire for the school other than baseball, with no money is being offered, it's a BIG gamble whether or not you son will get the opportunities you and he might hope for. As has been pointed out, there's really NO "guaranteed spot" even if your son was to start, it's all about performance and maintaining the performance the coach expects.

Yes, it is possible that "freed up money" could be available for your son as coaches will distribute it to players. . . even portion it out to various player's thereby increasing their scholarships. It's all still a gamble when there is no commitment up front.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
You seem to have your mind made up about your son attending a D1 program. Help him to find a program that believes in him by awarding baseball dollars (d1), and if he is as good as you say, he should be entitled to at least 25%.

My son would like to play in a good competitive college program. When we started the recruiting process I didn't know at what level he was capable of competing. Based on the recruiting of local players he is comparable with, and the feedback from the coaches that have seen him, we have contacted mostly D1 programs in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast, and a few D2 programs.

As far as the school goes it is local close to home and would be a good fit without baseball. That being said, I think he could fit in anywhere as long as he was playing baseball.

Originally posted by: Truman

quote:

Yes, it is possible that "freed up money" could be available for your son as coaches will distribute it to players. . . even portion it out to various player's thereby increasing their scholarships. It's all still a gamble when there is no commitment up front.

Is it unreasonable to ask them to commit future "freed up money"? I guess the intent of the question would be to see what they really think of him, based on them saying unfortunately we have no scholarships available.

Bottom line is it seems that we started this process too late. Knowing what I know now, I would have started a year ago. The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

Sounds like a very common circumstance to be in. If you could take away the DI, DII, DIII college categories and look at your ability to play as a freshman right out of the gate, to me that's the ideal approach. And personally, had I to do it over again I would have been much less involved in the decision making process.

A walk on is a walk on is a walk on. My first car was a Datsun B210. It had all the bells and whistles and was top of the line....but it was a Datsun B210!

quote:

A walk on is a walk on is a walk on. My first car was a Datsun B210. It had all the bells and whistles and was top of the line....but it was a Datsun B210!

LOVE the analogy!!!

quote:

Bottom line is it seems that we started this process too late. Knowing what I know now, I would have started a year ago. The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

College recruiters at the "athletic scholarship" levels, go after the players they want. Sometimes I think people get confused into thinking it's all about marketing and promotion. Exposure can help, but only if you have what they want. You can be the worlds greatest self promoter, but they will still go after the kid they want, even if that kid never contacted them.

Coaches do not wait around and fill their roster by waiting for players and parents to contact them. If you are a player they know about and they think you can help their program... They will initiate things.

It's fine to tell them that you are interested in their program. After that, anything else could be a waste of time.

BTW, as long as you understand everything, and are confident, being a recruited walk on can work out well. It's actually true that scholarship money is often gone. However, most players offered recruited walk on status, are talented enough to be a scholarship player at another school.

It's always been my opinion that age 18-20 are very important developmental years. That is why the MLB clubs draft high school kids. If the plan is to be a starter by your junior year, I'd go elsewhere. By the time you're a junior, there will be two more recruiting classes full of players they went after. And these are players that haven't spent the last two years on the bench. I know it happens, but more often than not, the bench can be a permanent position. If that is acceptable, great, everyone needs great team mates.

One more thing... There are no guarantees. And coaches know that the best players, the ones they really want, don't even bring up guarantees of roster spots or playing time. If someone wants a guarantee, I would be skeptical of that player.

There are exceptions to most everything. Many have said it here over the years and I think it is true. Often parents and players seem to hear what they want rather than what was really said or more importantly not said. Bottom line... If that "DI" school knows who you are and not working hard to get you... They are telling you something that you should pay attention to.

Best of luck

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Bottom line is it seems that we started this process too late. Knowing what I know now, I would have started a year ago. The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

College recruiters at the "athletic scholarship" levels, go after the players they want. Sometimes I think people get confused into thinking it's all about marketing and promotion.

My point about exposure is that it is needed, no matter what level (DI DII or DIII)you may wish to play at. The interest shown in you will determine where the player will have opportunities.

Starting the process earlier than we had would have given more exposure and possibly more opportunities.

A player could be DI caliber but, if no one knows who he is, he will not have many opportunities. As I have seen others mention, just because a player is good does not mean he will be found.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:

quote:

Bottom line is it seems that we started this process too late. Knowing what I know now, I would have started a year ago. The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

College recruiters at the "athletic scholarship" levels, go after the players they want. Sometimes I think people get confused into thinking it's all about marketing and promotion. Exposure can help, but only if you have what they want. You can be the worlds greatest self promoter, but they will still go after the kid they want, even if that kid never contacted them.

Coaches do not wait around and fill their roster by waiting for players and parents to contact them. If you are a player they know about and they think you can help their program... They will initiate things.

It's fine to tell them that you are interested in their program. After that, anything else could be a waste of time.

BTW, as long as you understand everything, and are confident, being a recruited walk on can work out well. It's actually true that scholarship money is often gone. However, most players offered recruited walk on status, are talented enough to be a scholarship player at another school.

It's always been my opinion that age 18-20 are very important developmental years. That is why the MLB clubs draft high school kids. If the plan is to be a starter by your junior year, I'd go elsewhere. By the time you're a junior, there will be two more recruiting classes full of players they went after. And these are players that haven't spent the last two years on the bench. I know it happens, but more often than not, the bench can be a permanent position. If that is acceptable, great, everyone needs great team mates.

One more thing... There are no guarantees. And coaches know that the best players, the ones they really want, don't even bring up guarantees of roster spots or playing time. If someone wants a guarantee, I would be skeptical of that player.

There are exceptions to most everything. Many have said it here over the years and I think it is true. Often parents and players seem to hear what they want rather than what was really said or more importantly not said. Bottom line... If that "DI" school knows who you are and not working hard to get you... They are telling you something that you should pay attention to.

Best of luck

Great post PG. this should be a must read....

quote:

Originally posted by co2013:

Originally posted by: Truman

quote:

Yes, it is possible that "freed up money" could be available for your son as coaches will distribute it to players. . . even portion it out to various player's thereby increasing their scholarships. It's all still a gamble when there is no commitment up front.

Is it unreasonable to ask them to commit future "freed up money"? I guess the intent of the question would be to see what they really think of him, based on them saying unfortunately we have no scholarships available.

Bottom line is it seems that we started this process too late. Knowing what I know now, I would have started a year ago. The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

No, frankly I don't feel is reasonable to ask for a commit on something that's simply unknown as the coach just doesn't know what's going to be freed up. You (your son) could talk to the coach ask if it's simply a matter of being too late in the process and if it wasn't what the coach thing he might have done if it had been sooner (assuming you just want to see how he actually views you son as a viable prospect that could have plenty of playing time).

I don't think I'd say is "seems to be about self promotion and showcases." But exposure is certainly important and if one has plenty of exposure and not getting as much interested as expected, that should telling something.

Because of family financial crisis, I was not able to send my son to hardly any high profile showcases. I was able to get him to the Stanford summer camp and he was invited to a couple of events (Area Code , Norcal Bay Area WS, Trosky BB Camp), which helped along with a great deal of help from his HS coach who is well connected to college coaching. And I would say it helped being part of a very successful HS varsity team where coaches comes to watch others play too.

Starting late can indeed present problems as coaches are filling their needs as soon as possible as they compete against other coaches for the top players. If you're late to the party, you'd better be a really good player (like a starting freshman type of player) to have them make extra ordinary effort to get you in.

So, it's not only about exposure, it's also about timing. And if you happen to be at the right place at the right time, it can go very easily. When not at the right place at the right time, then you've got to fight and do what it take to get to the goal. Right?

A big point here is this D1 school wants your son! They see him as a good fit to their program. This is a good problem to have.

With limited scholarships it is very tough to spread out the money year in and year out. IMO your family should request to meet with the HC and discuss the situation face to face. All of your concerns should be answered and then you will have more information to assist your son in making a decision.

Very similar situation for our youngest.

Lefty...

quote:

Originally posted by Sdlefty:
A big point here is this D1 school wants your son! They see him as a good fit to their program. This is a good problem to have.

With limited scholarships it is very tough to spread out the money year in and year out. IMO your family should request to meet with the HC and discuss the situation face to face. All of your concerns should be answered and then you will have more information to assist your son in making a decision.

Very similar situation for our youngest.

Lefty...

If you go by the rankings this is an established mid tier school that has been improving over the last several years.

Hopefully there are lower ranked, up and coming schools with a good coaching staff that would truely see him as a valuable player, not a bench player.

Like all kids he wants to go where he has a chance to play. He'd rather be a starter on the worst team than a bench player on the best team.

It doesn't matter where the school is ranked, low or high, you are looking for a coach that really wants your son in his program.

The biggest problem for a position player walkon are the practice opportunities at most schools. Generally speaking a walkon will not be getting as many qualtiy opportunities to hit against the top pitchers and may not even get many opportunities against other pitchers and/or work with the hitting coach. The walkon is often in the position of having to signficantly outplay scholarship player to make it onto the field.

There is nothing wrong with going to a good JC league if your son feels he's a D1 player but isn' getting a good feeling for his D1 opportunities.

A key question to ask is whether the team carries the full 35 maximum permitted by the NCAA. Many teams with limited budgets carry fewer, to save on money.

Since scholarship money can be given to no more than 27 guys, any team with 35 guys has at least 8 walk-ons on the roster. A concern I have with the comments above is that they would leave you with the impression that people don't value you unless they're giving you money. This is just not true. Teams HAVE TO HAVE walk-ons and they are always going to be looking for those kinds of guys. If it's the school you want and maybe they can at least assure that your son gets through admissions, then you can still get something out of your baseball recruiting efforts.

That being said, there are of course big risks to the walk-on slot. First, many times a kid is promised money in year 2 and beyond, but when he gets there, does it materialize? There's nothing you can do to bind them legally to such promises. The only thing you can do is ask around, maybe post a question here, and see what people come forward to tell you about that program's/that coach's history and reputation for veracity.

Second, most big time programs have more than 35 guys on campus in the fall. While there are exceptions, for the most part it's the walk-ons who are going to be on the chopping block when the time comes to cut down to 35. Meaning, your son would be more at risk of getting cut than someone who's getting money. If the coaches do guarantee a roster spot, again, you should ask around about their history and reputation with respect to such promises. I've known coaches who keep these promises, and I've seen many who are prone to conveniently forgetting them or rationalizing reasons for breaking them.

The big question to ask is, do I have something better on the table?

Also, bear in mind that if they don't offer money, your son is still free to take a later offer if someone else comes forward. So he is also in a position to hedge his bets if he wants to play it that way.

P.S.

The fact that they aren't fully funded for the 11.7 max does mean that they have to rely more than many others on walk-ons. In this situation it is more likely that your son would indeed have a fair shot at earning a significant role, since many of those he'd be competing with would be in the same boat, no better or worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
P.S.

The fact that they aren't fully funded for the 11.7 max does mean that they have to rely more than many others on walk-ons. In this situation it is more likely that your son would indeed have a fair shot at earning a significant role, since many of those he'd be competing with would be in the same boat, no better or worse.

My understanding that for D1 programs that are not fully funded, academic scholarships are arranged in lieu of. Keep in mind that also in some states, state money is available as well, in lieu of baseball money. This does make the recruit a walk on but perhaps one in a different sense than the player seen once and then asked to show up for the fall. I don't even see this as a recruited walk on, what recruitment was done on behalf of the coaches? College coaches are very smart, they know just who to ask, for various reasons.

Let's face it, a coach really only needs a certain amount of players (that's where the 27 scholarships comes in), but they do need reserves and of course they will choose a player that may be able to fit that role if needed. I would bet if you asked any coach his honest opinion of why he asks players to walk on, he will tell you, for injury purposes. Just keep in mind he has already recruited those he wants, even if his program doesn't fully fund.

PG's post, as usual, is excellent, I hope that you read it over, more than once.

I personally would put no faith in a recruited walk-on promise. Even if the coach is well intentioned and honest, the chances are small that this would be recognized by a new hire, if that first coach was to leave. Many new coaches have to honor verbally accepted scholarship offers whether they like it or not, but I doubt their ADs hold them to the prior coach's walk-on promises.

Re-Read Post by PGSTAFF as suggested by TPM:
[/QUOTE]
BTW, as long as you understand everything, and are confident, being a recruited walk on can work out well. It's actually true that scholarship money is often gone. However, most players offered recruited walk on status, are talented enough to be a scholarship player at another school.

It's always been my opinion that age 18-20 are very important developmental years. That is why the MLB clubs draft high school kids. If the plan is to be a starter by your junior year, I'd go elsewhere. By the time you're a junior, there will be two more recruiting classes full of players they went after. And these are players that haven't spent the last two years on the bench. I know it happens, but more often than not, the bench can be a permanent position. If that is acceptable, great, everyone needs great team mates.

One more thing... There are no guarantees. And coaches know that the best players, the ones they really want, don't even bring up guarantees of roster spots or playing time. If someone wants a guarantee, I would be skeptical of that player.

There are exceptions to most everything. Many have said it here over the years and I think it is true. Often parents and players seem to hear what they want rather than what was really said or more importantly not said. Bottom line... If that "DI" school knows who you are and not working hard to get you... They are telling you something that you should pay attention to.

Best of luck[/QUOTE]

I am confident that given the chance he could do well. The scholarship reinforces the point that those are the players that the coaches really have focused on. Recruited walk-ons fill the rest of the roster.

I am concerned that the recruited walk-on will not be given the same opportunities as the scholarship player and will always be viewed as a bench/utility player.

As far as the parent hearing what they want, I have tried to not assume anything and am more skeptical. When I mentioned some concerns, they said they give everyone the same opportunity and that he was their type of player and that they could see him playing for them. (This was not my interpretation, it was said specifically.) This is the reason why I orininally posted here.

Actions speak louder than words, if they thought that highly of him he would have been contacted earlier and offered something.

We are also pursuing other options.

quote:

Originally posted by co2013:
As far as the parent hearing what they want, I have tried to not assume anything and am more skeptical. When I mentioned some concerns, they said they give everyone the same opportunity and that he was their type of player and that they could see him playing for them. (This was not my interpretation, it was said specifically.) This is the reason why I orininally posted here.

We are also pursuing other options.

Of course they are going to say he is their type of player and that they can see your son playing for them! What would you expect them to say?

I am glad that your son is pursuing other options.

Many coaches have lots of integrity. Some don't (according to some), we don't know the program that you are talking about so realistically it's hard to know who you are talking about.

Best of luck.

co2013,

Sounds like they like him and they want him. At this point many have committed all their money. Chances are others will also like him. Maybe one of the others will make it an easier decision.

Only reason I responded was your comment.
Then I got long winded.

quote:

The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

Someone mentioned being at the right place at the right time. I think that is true for the most part. Self promotion IMO is a complete waste of time. If you have what it takes... if the right people see that... there is no need for any self promotion. Others will do it for you! Self promotion takes place on the field and doesn't require many words.

I just sometimes think we over do all the marketing stuff. I know we are indirectly involved in that ourselves. It's just that some people seem to think its all about marketing rather than ability. Without the required ability, it doesn't matter how good of a job you do marketing. If you have exceptional ability, you won't have to market. You just have to make sure the right people know about it and see it.

co2013,
Don't get caught up in the D1 haze. There are many D1's in PA, NJ & NY that are not any better then some D2's or D3's. I would much rather play at West Chester with some scholarship money then walk on and sit for a year or two at many of the D1's is this neck of the woods.

Your son should keep his options and mind open. There are many kids in this area who never considered D2 out of high school, but after a year of sitting at D1 U they happily went D2 their second year and are very happy.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
co2013,

Sounds like they like him and they want him. At this point many have committed all their money. Chances are others will also like him. Maybe one of the others will make it an easier decision.

Only reason I responded was your comment.
Then I got long winded.

quote:

The process seems to be about self promotion and showcases to gain exposure.

Someone mentioned being at the right place at the right time. I think that is true for the most part. Self promotion IMO is a complete waste of time. If you have what it takes... if the right people see that... there is no need for any self promotion. Others will do it for you! Self promotion takes place on the field and doesn't require many words.

I just sometimes think we over do all the marketing stuff. I know we are indirectly involved in that ourselves. It's just that some people seem to think its all about marketing rather than ability. Without the required ability, it doesn't matter how good of a job you do marketing. If you have exceptional ability, you won't have to market. You just have to make sure the right people know about it and see it.

My comment about self promotion was really about my own situation. I probably should have use the term pro-active. Having had no prior experience and using this site as my guide, it took a while to get up to speed. And with the economy and my business (or lack there of) money is tight. So just picking up and traveling to showcases is difficult.

I agree with you about having to make sure the right people know about it and see it.

Thanks to all for their input.

quote:

Originally posted by fillsfan:
co2013,
Don't get caught up in the D1 haze. There are many D1's in PA, NJ & NY that are not any better then some D2's or D3's. I would much rather play at West Chester with some scholarship money then walk on and sit for a year or two at many of the D1's is this neck of the woods.

Your son should keep his options and mind open. There are many kids in this area who never considered D2 out of high school, but after a year of sitting at D1 U they happily went D2 their second year and are very happy.

We have contacted several D2's. He would have no problem playing for a good D2 program.

quote:

Originally posted by Rick at Informed Athlete:
The two posts above made reference to "If your son is guaranteed a roster spot..." and "...have a roster spot guaranteed..."

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "guaranteed roster spot." Not since I consulted a couple of years ago with the family of a freshman who had a scholarship of at least 50% and who was cut from the team at the end of Fall drills, even though he was still going to have to count as one of the 35 roster spots because of his scholarship.

Yes, the guaranteed spot just might be "bullpen" catcher.

quote:

Originally posted by Pop Up Hitter dad:

quote:

Originally posted by Rick at Informed Athlete:
The two posts above made reference to "If your son is guaranteed a roster spot..." and "...have a roster spot guaranteed..."

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "guaranteed roster spot." Not since I consulted a couple of years ago with the family of a freshman who had a scholarship of at least 50% and who was cut from the team at the end of Fall drills, even though he was still going to have to count as one of the 35 roster spots because of his scholarship.

Yes, the guaranteed spot just might be "bullpen" catcher.

Pop Up Hitter Dad,

Did the All-American catcher who was drafted by the White Sox sign or is he returning for his senior year?

Great posts on this issue. I do think we need to remember that anything can happen in this process.

As parents we need to assist/support our sons in finding the best fit for him. For us, we found a program that is very committed to their kids. Everything has been very upfront with no suprises. The staff teaches and develop at the highest level and do not give up on a kid. We are very fortunate.

So for those parents working with their sons to find their best fit - work hard at it and be persistant! It will pay off.

Amen - Lefty