Recruiting And Barry Zito

I think Zito might get jacked in college baseball today as kids are used to/practice hitting his slower speed all year, while the pro batters gear up all year for 88-97 mph.

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Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:
I think Zito might get jacked in college baseball today as kids are used to/practice hitting his slower speed all year, while the pro batters gear up all year for 88-97 mph.

So, you're saying that he would have more success in the majors than he would if he pitched in the PAC 12?

I think the point of jaggerz is that a pitcher with an 84 MPH fastball wouldnt get a chance to show what he could do at that level.

College pitchers don't have the emotional maturity and pitching knowledge of a thirty-something MLB pitcher. The higher velocity overcomes the mistakes.

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Originally posted by jaggerz:
The supposed knowledgeable college recruiters would pass on the current Barry Zito with his 84 MPH and big ,slow curve.It makes one wonder how many "pitchers" that they overlook because of their love of the radar gun.
They would rather draft a big strong arm who they will develop.The facts would show that their success rates are questionable at best.
This happens at the pro level as well.

You have got this all wrong, Zito is a seasoned professional that was pitching in the 90's in college.

My comment has noting to do with college pitcher maturity.

My point being Barry is so far off the velocity standard for ML pitchers at this point in his career its difficult for hitters to adjust and that college hitters see his speed a lot more often.

Can we agree that Verlander would mow down college hitters?

Could you say the same about Barry?

jaggerz- While I agree to an extent that college recruiters and pro scouts love the radar gun, let's not forget that Zito was a first round draft pick who threw low-90's and dominated the Pac-10 Conference. In his Cy Young season in 2002, his average fastball was in the upper 80's and he had arguably the best curveball in baseball.

I find it hard to believe that there are many college recruiters who would find a high school pitcher with Zito's current acumen and arsenal and not be extremely interested...especially as a 6'4" LHP.

Velocity is a big factor, yes. But its not everything.

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Can we agree that Verlander would mow down college hitters?

Could you say the same about Barry?

CollegeParentNoMore- I love your posts and what you contribute, but I'm going to respectfully disagree with your opinion. I think Verlander, Zito, and ANY Major League pitcher would tear apart an amateur lineup.

With all these "crafty old pitchers", if you study their history they actually were high velocity guys back in their day.

It appears if you've had success at 92 in MLB, they'll give you a chance at 87.

You have to be at that level in order to have credibility when the velo drops. Maddox was one of the best pitchers I ever saw and he was eeking by at 87 as a RHP in his old age by working corners.

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The supposed knowledgeable college recruiters would pass on the current Barry Zito with his 84 MPH and big ,slow curve.It makes one wonder how many "pitchers" that they overlook because of their love of the radar gun.

Nope, don't agree at all. Not an LHP and not with the kind of command and repertoire that Zito has. No way they overlook him. Only the foolish ones would overlook him and there are very few who are that foolish.

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You have got this all wrong, Zito is a seasoned professional that was pitching in the 90's in college.

Correct! Fans at Stanford's Sunken Diamond still rave about Zito's performances there. More than any other opposing pitcher...by a wide margin.

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I think Verlander, Zito, and ANY Major League pitcher would tear apart an amateur lineup.

As usual J H, you are completely correct. I LOVE college baseball, perhaps more than any other level. But major league players are well above that level of play.

justbaseball- I had a friend who I thought knew the game of baseball very well until he told me that he would be willing to bet that a good high school lineup would destroy Jamie Moyer. I laughed and decided to end the conversation right there, as I didn't see the benefit of arguing something so ridiculous. It is often frustrating to me how much people rely on the radar gun and, as a pitcher, how much people DON'T realize the true meaning of "pitching".

Interesting discussion. I'll add this...

Every year Tribe Jr's team seems to run into some soft-throwing, frail junkballin' pitcher who inevitably goes the distance and frustrates the heck out of every hitter in the lineup. Towards the middle of the game we start hearing complaints about how everyone would rather be facing a flame-thrower than said pitcher. I'm guessing many of your sons have had the same experience.
Funny thing is, these "crafty" types don't seem to make it to the next level unless they find a significant velocity increase.

I suppose that college scouts are already facing enough of a **** shoot when making offers to 16 and 17 year-old pitchers. Good present strength and velocity are unlikely to diminish (barring injury) through the college years and gives college coaching staffs a good foundation on which to develop effective college pitchers.

Ask yourself this: you have room for one more pitcher on your D1 2014 class. Your decision is between two effective high school juniors with identical stats. One maxes at 87, the other 78. Which is the better risk?

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Originally posted by jaggerz:
The supposed knowledgeable college recruiters would pass on the current Barry Zito with his 84 MPH and big ,slow curve.It makes one wonder how many "pitchers" that they overlook because of their love of the radar gun.
They would rather draft a big strong arm who they will develop.The facts would show that their success rates are questionable at best.
This happens at the pro level as well.

I am on the opposite side, to a very large extent.
While I can think of more than 5 off the top of my head, Stanford has a lefty pitcher who is 6'4", topped out at 84 last year as a freshman, had a curve ball in the low 70's and a change right around 68 mph. He was also drafted by the Twins out of HS.
Would MLB teams prefer to draft a "big strong arm?" Yes, the evidence points that direction but the evidence also shows not all of those drafted have a "big strong arm."
For college coaches, more than a few look at the ability to pitch and intangibles, like heart and loving the ball in the biggest of situations. Hochstatter is on the same staff with Mark Appel who gets it to 96/97mph. I think we can get lost at times when we read and "believe" as opposed to actually going to a lot of college baseball games and seeing who gets innings. We might also be underestimating too many college coaches and the skills, talent, and make up they might look for in recruiting.
To think the current Barry Zito would be overlooked as a college pitching recruit or that the current Barry Zito would be less successful against college hitters are concepts which make me go

To quote my son watching Zito: "How do you hit THAT?"

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Originally posted by twotex:
To quote my son watching Zito: "How do you hit THAT?"

My 17 year old relative had this question: "Papa, why do the Tigers swing at all of his bad pitches. He rarely throws strikes."
I smiled and said, "with that kind of stuff, he would be crazy to throw it over the plate. Macho big leaguers often get themselves out."

You can't compare college to pro. College uses metal bats, and BBCOR or not it is a completely different game against wood.

If Zito threw 93-94 in college, I can see why he was successful at that level.

Against MLB hitters, jaggerz, unless you throw 95+ velocity is not as important. You have to use your brain to keep the hitters off-balance. That implies good stuff.

Would Zito be successful against college hitters? Would an ice cream man be successful in Florida?

There are tons of college pitchers today that have better raw stuff than Barry Zito.

There is not a single college pitcher today that is a better pitcher than Barry Zito. I'd bet all the money I have on that.

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"with that kind of stuff, he would be crazy to throw it over the plate. Macho big leaguers often get themselves out."

Absolutely incorrect. MLB hitters are the best on the planet. They don't chase pitches because they are macho, they chase pitches because the pitcher made a good pitch. Whether its 100 mph or 50 mph is irrelevant, its a good pitch. And Barry Zito has been making a lot of good pitches lately.

I'll repeat the following quotes I have been saying for years, quotes that I believe are good fundamental starting points for basic pitching knowledge:

Good pitching is making balls look like strikes and strikes look like balls.

A good pitch doesn't have to be over the plate.

Also, one more point that stems off the second bullet above...I apologize because its very much off topic but I feel like sharing it nonetheless. Its a pet peeve of mine (drives me absolutely nuts) when I hear someone say "waste pitch". There is no such thing as a waste pitch. Why would someone waste a pitch? A pitch strategically thrown off the plate for a ball is an effective strategy and is far from wasting a pitch.

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Originally posted by J H:
Also, one more point that stems off the second bullet above...I apologize because its very much off topic but I feel like sharing it nonetheless. Its a pet peeve of mine (drives me absolutely nuts) when I hear someone say "waste pitch". There is no such thing as a waste pitch. Why would someone waste a pitch? A pitch strategically thrown off the plate for a ball is an effective strategy and is far from wasting a pitch.

a waste pitch is a purpose pitch

A pitcher that interests me even more than the Zito "phenomenon" is the Mets' Chris Young. It's not unusual for a lefty to be successful with a "lesser" fastball, but very unusual for a RHP. What makes Young even more extreme is that he pitches up in the zone.

It's shocking to see him throw 84MPH fastballs past hitters. And he throws one fastball after another. Of course he can't get out of the 5th inning but those first two times through the order are really fun to watch.

quote:

Originally posted by J H:

I find it hard to believe that there are many college recruiters who would find a high school pitcher with Zito's current acumen and arsenal and not be extremely interested...especially as a 6'4" LHP.

Velocity is a big factor, yes. But its not everything.

Exactly

For those of you who have never seen nor heard a Zito curve in real life, let me assure you it is a devastating pitch. In my view his is still in the upper echelon of MLB. So combine that with a couple of other pitches thrown for strikes, and you have one heck of a pitcher.

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Originally posted by J H:
I think Verlander, Zito, and ANY Major League pitcher would tear apart an amateur lineup.

I also agree with your assessment.
I've watched several top D1 lineups shut down by good college pitchers last year alone. To think MLB talent could not do the same is not realistic.

JH, when I see something on this thread with which I disagree, I'll let you know.



Excellent posts.