Recruiting Scenerio #2: Recruited Walk On

Great topic. My son may very well be in the same boat, but as a position player. A lot depends on the college, for many schools' rosters are CAPPED, due to Title IX. This means the coaches may be faced with keeping a "walk-on" (even IF recruited) or cutting a player the coach has money invested in. A player in this situation should look very carefully at the possibilities. Being red-shirted may be a legit possiblity in this scenerio.

Great topic indeed. Observer, I don't have anything brilliant to say, but I kind of like the part about the pitching coach who develops his players. I know it is said everyday here that the more money you get the more they love you...etc...etc...I think there are other considerations as you point out and money may not be the most important one.

I guess what I am trying to say is they can have patience with him since it is low risk on their part. Thus, if you feel they are straight shooters and would do everything in their power to develop him, it could work out nicely for him. No doubt a tough decision.

I heard of this concept for the first time at a prospect camp a couple of weeks ago, although the coach called it a "preferred" walk on. In his program, if you had that status, you didn't have to go through the walk on tryout, you played the fall with the team and then they evaluated your status. I would think that someone in that position would have to feel comfortable with the competition at his position and the number of people the coach is bringing back and bringing in and all those other variables to accept that type of offer.

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Thanks.

One aspect I suggest is essential is to discuss with the coaches EXACTLY what their concept of a recruited or preferred/recruited walk on IS.

Even the definition of what one is seems to be cloudy. Don't know if there is a universal definition or expectations and responsibilities the same way that there is for other types of designees.

What are the expectations? The pro's? The Cons?
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...go to a school where you can pitch.

"Recruited Walk-On":

Now that's interesting:

What it means to me is the College Coach offers the student a 'walk on' status (ie ability to tryout at Fall Walk-On Tryouts....which are open to entire college campus students.

There is absolutely zero committment from the Head Coach.

I would suggest (if in conversations) the coach who are offering a 'recruited walk-on status to your HS player, that a Spring Roster spot is coupled with the Coaches walk-on status!

If yes, you are closer to competing.
If no, you know where you stand with the Fall squad........ie the student must beat another player who is on the club ....flat out)

Regards
Bear



b)

I would imagine such a thing exits. However, I would think he could give teh player something, and then redshirt, scholarship does not count against the 11.7.

I don't understand why a coach would take the time to develop a player with no committment, that player is obligated to "walk off" at anytime.


Observer,
What's with the periods?

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Never ceases to amaze me what one can find here...

Just found a section on the HSBBW site map that has an article on "Invited Walkons" that was enlightening. Highlights the differecnes between invited and common walk on's. While it does not answer everything it helps. Still looking for more info though.....anyone?


As far as redshirting goes...it is interesting but the players I have talked to say that the coaches offering are confident enough that they can develop the pitchers that they are keeping the red shirt option open, but feel confident that they will not have to use it - development will be rapid and significant.

TPM...Do a great deal of reading and writing - in subject and out - and have come to belive that in a society where "clickeritis," and USA Today media bites are the norm, that presentation is now nearly as important as content to real consideration of ideas and the resulting communication.

White space is key. Long unbroken paragrpahs and windy thoughts lose readers who are conditioned to 5, 15, 30 and 60 second attention spans.

When I remember to, I use the periods to space out....which of course is what I most often anyway...

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Observer,
My impression from your first post would be that the player needs a year or two for development. Now you state development may be rapid. Confusing.

College coaches put players in to play and win games. I don't think I would want mine to play a game or two and lose eligibilty waiting to develop as a pitcher.

Either way, when considering this option, you might want to discuss it with the coach, not the players. But you knew that already I am sure.

Have kept enough white space open so you would not lose interest.

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keep in mind there are about 280 DI pitching coaches out there that can develop pitchers - - - and . . . the coaches with the great "track records" are mostly coaches who have recruited the best pitchers

also a key part of that development is "game innings"

sometimes you hear much fuss over the story of a certain walk-on's success - - with good reason as he's overcome extreme odds

good luck

Track record, track record, track record...

Did I say "track record?"

While it's ALWAYS important to dig into the facts concerning a coaching staff's propensities to do what they claim they will do, I can think of no more important circumstance for that to happen. When they're talking with you about their plans for your son as an "invited walk-on," make certain that they speak very specifically about recent players who have had positive experiences in that role. Then, follow up with one-on-one discussions with players and parents to confirm their assertions.

As others on this thread have suggested, the odds are pretty stacked against non-scholarship players who are on the roster. That's not to say that you can't find acceptable/desirable situations; but, at the very least, it's going to require some pretty special due diligence on your part to confirm expectations the coaches create.

Best of luck to your son!

An invited (recruited) walkon usually has one leg up on those not invited because the coach has usually seen the player before the fall tryouts--thus the invite (recruited)

I’m with Bee, Prepster, Observer44, and TPM. To me a recruited walk on is like a prenuptial agreement that only one person signs. The coach has nothing to lose. The player has everything to lose from a baseball perspective and only a slim chance to gain anything. I think the recruited walk scenario might be beneficial if the player has no other options or JUST wants to be a small part of a particular program. But.... there are some players that accept this and are quite happy with it. I have talked to parents of recruited walk-ons and many of these players put academics far ahead of baseball and are just enjoying the moment of being part of the team. I think the player that is looking to be an impact player for a baseball program needs to understand the little fish in the big pond environment he is putting himself into by accepting the recruited walk-on role.
Just my opinion.
Fungo

.....(that means pause here)....

Keep in mind that the "Invited Walkon" is a key element in Division III Fall try outs

TRHit,
With no baseball scholarships at DIII's wouldn't all recruited players be recruited walk-ons????

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Good Stuff....

TPM...Can see the confusion...Could be impact in a year or two, could be a contributor the first year after a fall's worth of hard work. If development goes well, but again, not an immediate impact, not expected to be. Still only projectable so at a DI, not "NLI'able." (nice work on the white... )


TPM...2..and Prepster....yep, My advice exactly. KNOW what your looking at. Communicate. research. Talk to the coaches at legnth. In one of these instances, this school, this coach and this program has a long track record of valuing walk on's, of developing pitchers from raw material, and seeing future where others do not. That help?


BEE...Good point. As soon as a pitching coach gets a rep he no longer has to develop players as much, he gets much higher quality recruits.

TR..Not only has he got a leg up by being seen, but my research among the "experts" is that often these offer include a spring roster position, thought due diligence and nailing that option down is certainly prudent.

Fungo..Good Synopsis. Certainly a one way agreement...on the other hand there is a body of knowledge out there (talk to HSBBW oldtimer Justbaseball) that would tell you that the NLI's are not worth the paper they are written on as well. Go Figure...

Another two key elements IMO...

DI in a quality conference so would not take the pleysr unless he was pretty sure that a significant contributiuon would be made in the future.

second...Another key element not mentioned. The coach can save scholarship money. If he can bring in a player for nothing he has more to offer the higher end immediate impact guys. In a backdoor way wouldn't it help the team win?

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quote:

DI in a quality conference so would not take the pleysr unless he was pretty sure that a significant contributiuon would be made in the future.

I disagree!!!!
happens all the time.

Observer,
It's a hard question to answer, based on personal preference.
My son tells me about the kids who decide to leave after a year or two. It is extremely difficult, the team is very very close. They love school, could stay to finish up but just want to go PLAY, all of the time, not just randomly.
I only know if it was my son, I would want him to go where he would stay and be happy. That's so importnat, more important than a full scholarship (which doesn't always make one happy). My son's freinds were recruited walk ons. They didn't see much playing time, and when they did, they were much better than some of the scholarship players. They didn't see lots of instruction either. The second year nothing changed. The coach told them his budget was cut back, they couldnt even get gloves. I would hate to mention the school, well known D1 (smaller) and great baseball program. To me, it looked like they just needed bodies for Fall practice. They were rostered IMO as fill ins, not on teh travel squad.

This is a common and of course interesting scenario.....

For the college coach, if he is telling the kid that he has a spot on the roster, then what he is doing is hoping that the kid develops into a pitcher who can help him win games in the future. For the coach, in this situation the program does not lose. If the kid doesn't develop, the team has not lost an investment.

For the kid, it can be looked at more than one way. Some kids are going to want to take advantage of this opportunity to play D-I and believe they are going to succeed, and some of them will succeed. That is a great situation, and can work into at least a little scholarship money later.

Other kids may want to go some place that they know they will get some quality innings in as a freshman....or where they think they will get some quality innings in as a freshman......

I know a non-pitcher who was presented this opportunity and jumped at the chance, and had about 100 plate appearances as a true freshman in a major D-I conference.....it sure seemed to be a great opporunity for him!

Bottom line, this is a tough scenario to predict......there is no wrong way to go.

FUNGO

not the case at all--- some D III players are truly recruited--they do not just try out in the fall--the coaches know who they are before they get there

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Grateful...

Good synopsis..

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TRHit, Aren't recruited walk-ons recruited??? As I see it, at a DIII college, a recruited walk-on is a recruited player that receives no scholarship. But you make a distinction and say there are “Truly" recruited players at DIII’s. These are also recruited players that receive no scholarships. What’s the difference? If you say they don’t have to try-out in the fall then the “recruited” walk-on would NOT qualify as a recruited walk-on but merely “invited” to attend try-outs. I think the “recruited walk-on” label would only be applicable at those levels (DI’s, D-2’s, Juco’s, etc.) that offer athletic scholarships. Either you or I are getting caught up in the semantics here.
Fungo

Living in a state where there is only 1 D1 baseball program (UW-M) and one other D1 school with reciprocity (UMinn) I get the impression that the coaches sometimes try to lure the in-state kid (who may still pay less than he would with a partial scholarship at an out of state) with the recruited walk-on status.

FUNGO

I never said they dont have to try out and I also noted the Division III aspect

What I said is that they have one leg up because the coaches have already seen them play

Not a matter of semantics--just facts-- all players "try out" at Division III but some have a leg up because they have been seen and "invited"--doesnt mean they make the cut but they are a step ahead going in

Semantics seems to be everything in this area.

Here is how I always thought they were defined (correct me if I am wrong):


Scholarship player: (pretty obvious I know) kid gets scholarship money. Does not attend try-outs. Has a place on the fall roster.

Recruited walk-on player: recruited by the coach to play for his team. Does not receive any scholarship money. Does not attend try-outs. Has a place on the fall rosters.

Invited walk-on player: player who has visited with the coach. Coach has some interest, but not enough to give him a spot on the roster. Invites him to try-out. Will look him over during try-outs. Must be selected during try-outs to have a spot on the roster.

Walk-on player: player who shows up at try-outs hoping to get a place on the roster. May or may not have ever spoken with the coach.

AParent:

In our experience, the term "recruited walk-on" never arose. An "invited walk-on" at UNC carries exactly the same status accorded your definition of "recruited walk-on." An "invited walk-on" gets a spot on the roster...works out with the team...no scholarship.

The term I'd apply to anyone below that status (someone attending the one-day tryout) in generous terms would be "hopeful."

We've had some good news this week. Our youngest made it through the fall cut as a walk on and is still on the team!

We never knew if he was an "invited walk on" or just a plain walk on when he transfered from a JUCO. His research consisted of calling the coach and talking with him about his chances of making the team. He met the staff in June at orientation and had a good feeling about everything. We discussed his options at length, but in the end he wanted to give it his best shot and we've backed him 100%.

Several years ago I think I actually posted something to the effect that I would never want our sons to walk on a college baseball program. But as usually happens when life takes in you different directions, my perspective changed.

That's WONDERFUL news!!! Congratulations!!

TxMom,

Congrats to your son, and please keep the updates coming!

Lois ...

That is wonderful news about your youngin' !!! Sounds like he has a great head on his shoulders, did his homework, and is reaping the fruits of his labor. Hope to hear more great news when the final roster is set !!! If he makes the team, you can bring a lot of info and insight to the HSBBW from a totally different perspective than that of the parents whose sons were recruited out of high school and JUCO.

Mary Ann

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TxMom...

I really value your comments about perspectives. I have said this before on this site...stuff happens. It is very easy, simplistic and a disservice to the Non Blue posters and visitors to take a very idealistic viewpoint of the process. For many it is not a slam dunk but a long and winding road with many potholoes and any number of ways to get to the goal.

To my way of thinking taking the walk on route and making the cut on an NCAA team is one of the most impressive things a young man can accomplish. Congratulations!

I don't get around as much as I would like...IF you don't mind me asking what school?

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Thanks everyone!
He's at Texas Tech and loves it.

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TxMom...

We'll all be watchin' and rootin'....

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TXmom

Congratulations !!!! I am sure your son is very pleased, as he should be.

observer44

quote:

It is very easy, simplistic and a disservice to the Non Blue posters and visitors to take a very idealistic viewpoint of the process

What exactly is a Non Blue poster?

I personally think it is great when a kid finds success following a non-traditional path.

The risks are also much greater.

Don't be so hard on folks who give out advise that tends to lean towards more tried and true methods.

After all, most kids are looking for what gives them the BEST CHANCE of success.

Which, when it is all said and done, more often than not, will be the more traditional methods.

TXmom, Congrats. I am a proud father of an Ivy League senior who was a true walk-on as a freshman. It certainly is a huge accomplishment that not many readers truly understand. Everyone should go through it as a parent. It speaks very well of your son to be able to hang in there. It is not easy, however a very rewarding experience. In many cases you will find that your walk-ons are more deserving than the highly recruited players. Best of luck

Txmom - Congrats to your son for his hard work and determination which is obviously paying off. May he continue to have great success.

txmom, congrats to your son from Ohio

& congrats to T-Tech for getting a good player



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TxMom---

Love your posts and equally love when good things happen to good people! Best of luck to BOTH of your sons...they've got good genes!!

TxMom,

This is a great story and congrats to your son!

I am curious about what the agreement was going in. Did your son call up Texas Tech out of the blue and ask to try out? Had they seen him play before and were aware of his reputation? Did they contact his JUCO coaches or did they rely on his assertions? Exactly what did they promise him if anything? Merely a chance to tryout? Or was it more like "If you are the player we think you are, there is a good chance you can make our team."

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AP...

Apologize if I did not make this clear...

I am going to overstate this at the risk of being criticized to make my observation....but in my twisted way of there are two types of stories..."Blue chips" who are getting multiple offers July 1, have a wide choice of rectuiting trips, and many choices on signing day. This is great. All the more power to these. I had an early sign. I mean no disrespect.

But I am on the recruting trail weekly talking to the large # of the "Non Blues" who are wondering why they are not getting all that attention and wondering why they are struggling so hard when they are hearing all these stories of instant success.

IMO...We hear many blue chip stories, IMO not so many, or enough of those "NonBlues" who struggle thought the process, past November, into April and the second signing period and then into walk-on status.

My post was intended to celebrate a young man who went far beyond the norm to reach his goal.

SO...you and I are in complete agreement.

Sorry if I appeared to hard on anyone, rather my intention was to remind that this story offers another viewpoint, one that we often overlook.

In the end I am not yet sold that most will take the tride and true methods. While I am in complete agreement that most will try and want to take that path, it may not be open to them.

Just looked at a listing of the '05 class at one of CA's best showcases. Of those 90 players 3 got drafted, perhaps 30 went to NCAA schools. DI, DII, DII. The rest will be taking non-traditional methods.

ClevelandDad...
His JUCO coach called first (at our son's request) and then our son followed up with a call. One coach had seen him pitch before his surgery. They made him feel welcome, but promised nothing. Our son knew it would be hard from the onset, but still wanted to try. The truth is that his parents are more afraid of the odds than he is.

The one thing I’ve learned about baseball at the higher levels is that success is never easy…for anyone. Even the Blue Chip player faces a huge set of challenges. As much as we want to protect our sons from struggle, the simple truth is that we can’t. The older I get the more I realize that’s a good thing.

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TxMom...bravo.

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observer44

Based on your description of blue chippers I would have to think the vast majority of the folks who come to this site for advise fall into that category.

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AP...

Based on what I am seeing on the recruitng trail, there are large numbers of hungry non-blues crying for information. I would hope that they feel free and encouraged to participate as well.

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I too hope that all HS Baseball players who hope to play past high school (and their parents) will find this a useful place to visit. I have no idea if my 08 will end up a blue chipper or not - but am findng this a great place to come and get smarter about baseball in HS and beyond.

I would actually argue that the non blue chippers need this site more than the blue chippers. Players who make the baseball america lists have lots of choices - and lots of people who are happy to help them make those choices. Other players may still want to continue on - and sites like this may help them to do so.

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08...agreed. In my experience the Blues most often know the system the non-blues are less sure and need more help. I hope we here can offer that help.

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Sorry, after I reread my post I realize I made a mistake. What I meant to say was"

based on your description of blue chippers I would have to think the vast majority of the folks who come to this site for advise DO NOT fall into that category.

Sorry for the confusion.

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AP....No problem....respected your opinion either way.

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I personally think the blue chippers need this site every bit as much as the non-blue chippers.

The non-blue chippers need the site to help them find a place to play. They need help learning about the tried and true methods that have worked for others. They also need help finding not so tried and true options available as well.

The blue chippers may have more options available to them, but that in itself can be massively confusing. It might sound like a great situation to be in (and yes, it is) but it has it's own set of pitfalls. Learning about selecting agents may seem more prestigious, but it is every bit as much stressful.

That is why I have always enjoyed this site so much. There is advise for kids at all levels of talent.

APARENT

I agree--in many cases the more offers a kid has the more confused he can get--regardless of a players talent levels the road remains the same-- somewhat confusing with a bump every now and then

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Agreed. Every rose has it's thorns....

On the other hand...as our high school coach said last year when I commented on how much talent he had on the team and how difficult it might be to decide on starting roles..."Heck this is easy. I'm much rather have too many talented players and not enough positions than the other way around."

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My son was what Observer44 might term as a "blue". I thought he was referring to umpires.
Don't ever think for a "blue chipper" the process is any less difficult or frustrating. Actually, it was quite stressful.
TR is correct recruiting has it's ups and downs and bumps, no matter who you are.
TxMom,
Congratulations to you and your son.

First, this has been an excellent website to learn about life after high school baseball.

My son who is an 06 outfielder is not a "blue chip" recruit but has had many phone contacts with DIII schools and a few D1 schools.

One of the D1 schools has referred to both the "invited walk-on" and "guaranteed roster spot". The difference as explained by the coach is that an invited walk-on means that you will be evaluated during the fall period to see if they want to keep you but a guaranteed roster spot means that you have made the team without scholarship money your first year.

My son most likely will not be an early signee and will have sometime yet to make a decision. I have streessed to him the importance of getting the best education possible (playing baseball ends for everyone at one time or another) and making sure that if you suffered a career ending injury would you be happy at the school you are at?

If he can focus on these first and baseball second I think he will make a good decision no matter where he ends up.

Roundingthird....you said it right.....academics first.....good luck to your '06......

quote:

My son most likely will not be an early signee and will have sometime yet to make a decision. I have streessed to him the importance of getting the best education possible (playing baseball ends for everyone at one time or another) and making sure that if you suffered a career ending injury would you be happy at the school you are at?

I think most every parent will agree this is the ideal focus. I will admit, in retrospect, however, that once my son identified schools with strong academics, he clearly made his decision based on baseball. Those factors included the interest of the coach and strong committments about playing time. He ended up getting the best of both in large part due to a college coach who followed through/exceeded every committment he made and a university who's academics/faculty are as advertised. While my son may have been lucky, I make this post solely to reinforce that if your son has a "passion" about baseball, I think it is perfectly fine to have that be an important factor to consider in the choice of schools.

We really struggled with our oldest in the college selection process. As teachers, we felt academics should be the first consideration. About half way into his senior year, however, we realized that was not his first consideration. He made his college selection based solely on baseball. Despite our reservations, we felt it was his choice to make and baseball has turned out to a great career for him so far.

Our second son made his selection out of high school based on the baseball program, too. He went the JUCO route and transferred upon graduation to a D1 based on a degree plan first and then baseball. Had he made his selection based on academics out of high school he would not have been able to pursue his current degree plan at any of the D1's that recruited him.

I guess my point is that every kid has to be allowed to follow their hearts when making their college selection. For some it may be baseball...at least out of high school... for others it may be a certain degree plan, and for others it will be both. The biggest mistake we made with our first was putting pressure on him to make a selection that would last 4 years. When you throw baseball into the mix, that's hard ...too hard IMHO for most 18 year olds.

quote:

my point is that every kid has to be allowed to follow their hearts when making their college selection. For some it may be baseball...at least out of high school, for others it may be a certain degree plan, and for others it will be both. The biggest mistake we made with our first was putting pressure on him to make a decision that would need to last 4 years. When you throw baseball into the mix, that's hard ...too hard IMHO

Nice post, TxMom.

You are right TXMom about throwing baseball into the mix making things very complicated.

My son wants to play baseball in college but what I was trying to say is that because there are so many uncertainties associated with collegiate sports, like in all of life, a sound decision regarding your education is the best place to start.

It seems that many young men and their parents get caught up very quickly in the "ego boost" that recruiting provides and that they may compromise a quality education along the way. It is nice to read about all of the players and parents that have made their own decisions and things have worked out great. You don't read to often on this site about the reality of players who went to schools that they normally would not have if it were not for sports and things simply did not work out for one of a million possible reasons.

I certainly want my son to follow his dreams of playing collegiate baseball but also realize that he has a long and hopefully gratifying life/career ahead of him when he is done with baseball and a quality education is where that all begins.

Roundingthird...

It's so hard to know what to hold on to when your son is making these decisions. I've been there and know what you're going through. I know that we, like you, valued education over anything. Baseball does eventually end for everyone ...even Barry Bonds.

However, I honestly don't feel that any college decision can be a mistake if it's what the kid wants to do...even if things "don't work out." Life is a journey and your son, at 18, is just beginning his. All of his experiences will factor into the twists and turns his life will take.

I really believe that God has a plan for our sons' lives and we need to get out of the way and let Him speak to our kids. If that means they go to a college for athletics and later change schools, that might all be part of the plan in their growth and development.

I clearly remember how frightening the college selection process was for us the first time through. I desparately wanted to be the best "guide" for our son. In the end, however, God did a much better job than I ever could have done.

quote:

It seems that many young men and their parents get caught up very quickly in the "ego boost" that recruiting provides and that they may compromise a quality education along the way.

AND there are those that say players should NOT give up their dream of playing baseball because of academics. As TXMom say there is really no down side to either. Most parents would be more apt to hang their son's baseball awards on the wall than his college degree.
Fungo

rndg3rd,
a few thoughts about your situation as you describe it -

if there is interest and it's just not "blowing you away" yet, there will be a temptation to get it over with and accept an offer you're not really thrilled about just to get locked in for early signing - DON"T DO IT!

things really change in the spring for most in your position - hs grades, injuries and the draft all have a snowball effect
if you are getting polite interest and basicly walk-on or books offers, things can only get better, and it's to a schools adavantage, not yours to get you to commit for book $ - tho as a walk-on no commitment would be necessary

also the "academics consideration" position must have been mass emailed to everyone but me (and txmom & fungo?)

my son sorted his college list on baseball programs period -

he assumed then that the colleges recruiting him "ALL" held classes teaching math, science and the other "stuff" he would be forced to learn around his baseball - I'll probably catch some grief for saying that, but, oh well

if a kid is going to college to play baseball & get educated, why not chose the best baseball situation available?

hope that helps
good luck



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Classic posts today TxMom

PS
One of the hardest things we've had to do was swallow our pride and let our youngest son, who was recruited by some of the top academic schools in the nation, attend a JUCO for their baseball program. He struggled with injuries for the entire 2 years, but LOVED being a part of their program. He left with a 4.0 GPA, a ton of wonderful life experiences, and many invaluable connections and resources. He misses the place terribly, but is ready for the next challenge...confident that everything happens for a reason.

All of the posts have been well thought out and appreciated.

quote:

Originally posted by Bee>:
he assumed then that the colleges recruiting him "ALL" held classes teaching math, science and the other "stuff" he would be forced to learn around his baseball - I'll probably catch some greif for saying that, but, oh wel


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Bee - another poster here shared those same thoughts with me last spring. We looked at the schools recruiting him and started with the baseball fit first. Then we looked at the other things -academics, costs, location and went from there. Academics played a major part in making a choice of JUCO, but we looked at the baseball fit first. Baseball was my son's motivation in HS and I felt it would have a place in college as well. Nothing wrong with your route IMO. Baseball helping to get a college education - works for me!

One other thing, does the late signing period in April have a start and end date like the early period in November and if the amatuer draft is held in June do that many college coaches know by April how many players from their team will get drafted?

I know it is still early and many doors will open while others close before any decision is made. To make matters more confusing he received a football recruiting phone call last week.

I better tighten my seat belt for this wild ride.

RoundingThird - the college signing period goes right on through the summer. College Coaches will have an idea of what kids will be drafted. They may also have an IDEA of who will sign as far as the draft, but no way to know for sure. There are kids signed right up until school starts in the fall - not that I'm advocating that route!

While I thought the recruiting process was one of the most stressful things we ever went through, in looking back there were many blessings attached as well. You and son will meet many people that you never would have otherwise. Those road trips and conversations with son are also priceless memories now - very thankful for them! Good luck!

quote:

If that means they go to a college for athletics and later change schools, that might all be part of the plan in their growth and development. I don't view that as a failure anymore.

Flying along their just observing and caught that first jewel, bringing a tear to my lonely eyes.......

Open mine eyes that I may seee....

Glimpses of what thou hast for me......

Oh, lawd, glory be!

AND THEN BROTHER BEE from all the places on earth but OHIO brings forth a most powerful message....

quote:

he assumed then that the colleges recruiting him "ALL" held classes teaching math, science and the other "stuff" he would be forced to learn around his baseball

Surely the lawd must be watching the playoff game tonight...............

Almost make you want to get off the couch and sing................

Bee and Fungo,

You guys are funnyyyyyyyyy!

Being through the recruiting process, I know just how difficult it can be. You all might be surprised to know that it is just as frustrating for the recruiting coach as well.

Player is average student, very good player, qualifies for D1 school. Receives many letters of interest. It becomes quite exciting.

College recruiter sees the player at a showcase and gets quite excited, he feels this player may be able to play and make an impact on his team.
Many weeks later the coach finally receives an official transcript. As excited as he was about recruiting this player, he sadly realizes that the player, though he has good grades, would be unable to keep up with the demands of the program AND all the other "stuff" at school (like math and science, etc.).

The player who was now receiving many letters because he attended a showcase and did very well, sees the interest is slowing down. It becomes very disappointing. It has nothing to do with their height, lack of 90+ velocity or not being a 400 hitter. It has to do with grades.

I do not believe that one's decision should be based around the baseball program but rather around the area of academics first, baseball second. I have stated that before. After talking about it this weekend with son's coach, I have not changed my thinking.

I admire the parent and player who realize that going to college is for an education, the dream of continuing the game as a bonus.

One should never give up the dream of playing college ball, but be realistic in the possibility that a particular program may be where he wants to play, but not necessarily the best academic opportunity.

Sorry to have gotten off of the subject.

quote:

by TPM - I admire the parent and player who realize that going to college is for an education, the dream of continuing the game as a bonus.

by definition ALL colleges provide an education, if I'm wrong about that, please list those that don't


there are some fine schools with baseball programs that struggle, or are in turmoil, or not well supported and hanging by a thread

you're welcome to recomend a situation like that - -
but, given a choice, I'd suggest one with the best quality baseball program that a player can get into which still meets his academic requirements

quote:

by FO - I admire the parent and player who realize that going to college is for the dream of continuing the game and the education as a bonus.

We have taken the academic aspect to heart---we not only give the coaches at our showcases the players GPA and SAT/ACT scores but list the players intended major as well.

I agree with Bee. If you want it, you can get an education at any school. Going to the (insert your best academic school here)doesn’t guarantee an education. You’ve still got to do the work.

I’m listed as an “old timer”, however, unfortunately not old enough to have found out about the HSBBW before I did. The “old timer’s” know my son’s story, but suffice it to say had he been recruited by a top tier baseball school, he would not be where he is today.

That said, I believe things happen for a reason. He’s gone places and done things he never would have had things been different, and thus no looking back to a woulda, coulda, shoulda. It will just make you old! That’s why everyone says, “DO YOUR HOMEWORK”!

I wish everyone the best on their decisions.

TR,
Everyone lists the GPA/SAT, funny thing is, it's not official until they get the official transcript. Things change after that.

Quoted by BEE:
but, given a choice, I'd suggest one with the best quality baseball program that a player can get into which still meets his academic requirements.

Correct, not arguing that point. However, you better know that if you don't meet the educational requirements, which in some schools are more than general math and earth science on your transcript, in some colleges you're not going to make it academically. Coaches know this, they sometimes have a tendency not necessarily to go with the best player, but the one who has potential and will not struggle in school.

by FO - I admire the parent and player who realize that going to college is for the dream of continuing the game and the education as a bonus.

You don't make the requirements, you ain't gonna play.

For many coaches, if you are not hovering around HIS GPA (forget what the NCAA says), you don't play.

IMHO "the best academic opportunity" is very subjective.

I personally was disappointed in the type of instruction our #1 son received in core classes at a UT system D1 noted for its high academic standards...and were pleasantly surprised at the quality of instruction our #2 son received in the small classes at his JUCO.

quote:

We were pleasantly surprised at the quality of instruction our #2 son received in the small classes at his JUCO.

I share that minority opinion with you TXMom.

There is a broad opinion that JUCO baseball and academics are simply inferior to the large schools.

Sometimes we do hear that education is what the student makes of it.

I attended a JUCO, my son did not, didn't make much of my education, (especially English), but my JUCO history class had Washington crossing the Delaware in the wrong direction while the English crossed the Pacific and not the Atlantic.

But, in the real world, it seems that most of what I learned in JUCO history was similar to what actually happened............

However, Economics, at Texas Tech, is not the same subject at Niagra or St. Anselm.

And, so far, my son remains academically eligible...........with the help of a solid B in a JUCO summer semester history class ( and is where I learned the proper direction of Washington's Delaware Crossing and the English came across the Atlantic....sad that I have been confused all these years)

TPM

Up this way not everyone lists that info not have I seen it listed in many events I have attended out of our area

And transcripts are not official until the player graduates

quote:

I attended a JUCO, my son did not, didn't make much of my education, (especially English),

Fo
You could have fooled ALL of us.....

Historically, I am not very Economical with my English........

TR,
Let me explain what I meant. GPA and SAT's are listed by info given by the player for showcases, teams, etc. Coach asks to have a copy of transcript (in our case coming directly from the school marked official). The actual transcript (current) is sometimes way off from the listed GPA.
In other words, the player listed his 9th grade GPA as 3.2 but by the time he reached his junior year it was way below 3.0, the coaches requirement. This seems to occur a bit.
I suggest to parents to update their sons GPA/SAT each year. I find it interesting that parents make sure their sons BA and ERA and velocity is updated annually, but not the GPA.

TPM

I agree that an official transcript can be forwarded to a school prior to graduation. It is official, to that point in time, and comes directly from the guidance office, appropriately stamped....official.

TxMom-Agree with your last post 100%. I think we as parents lots of times get wrapped up
in "status" and "names" (what will impress our peers) as opposed to what will best meet the needs of our sons.

Example-Local prep school has the "name", "status", IVY league schools clammering for its
graduates, very expensive,etc. We thought this should be the route to take our son's freshman year. Bottom line-they were not as advanced as the public school-didn't open a book and had virtually no home work and "breezed through the year and basically got little or no "education". But, we could SAY he was a "preppie" and everyone would be impressed???? He was not happy at the school and next year went back to the public system and he actually had to study to make his grades.

I guess what I'm saying is that an "education" is in the eyes of the beholder and some of the most educated people I know went to schools I've never heard of. I say if your son loves baseball and has "some" ability, choose the program where he will be able to
compete and fit in with players and coaches of similar values. My fondest memories of college were not of doing term papers and study groups, but of the times spent on the
diamond. There's always graduate school to get that "name" diploma.

BTW, this post is not meant to denigrate those who value education over athletics, both can be accomplished at the same time but from experience it's a lot more enjoyable when
one is sitting in English 101 and knowing fall practice starts at 2:30 and you can't wait to get there.

Moc,
Good post. For me it's not necessarily putting the value of education first. My son lives for his time on the field, it makes his experience better, what he lives for each day, NOT going to class.
Bottom line is, you HAVE to attend classes, whereever you go, make sure they are classes you can handle.

Moc

I was a "preppie". I am sure you are very impressed.

Academics and education are two different things. I have to agree with BEE and many others on the topic of education: The responsibility of an education rest with the “student” no matter where that student is...D-1, JUCO, prep, public, ivy, or even those NOT in college. My wife and I are opposites. She has a degree from a D-1 college and I have never attended college.... If I remember correctly I barely made it through Algebra I in high school and I know I flunked at least one English class. I think she minored in communications but last week she admittedly tried to text message my son on his cell phone by putting in his email address. By society’s standards she is educated and I am uneducated. (thank goodness she has trouble finding the HSBBW)
No matter where we are or what we’re doing, everyday day of our lives is an opportunity for education. We can either choose to accept it or we can ignore it.
Fungo

Dad, I KNOW you.....and you're no John F. Kennedy!!!!

It's your LONG drives that impress me.

Initially, we didn't believe a JUCO "lined up with our son's academic ability." He was a top student with a high SAT score and I feared that he wouldn't be challenged. However, HIS top priority out of high school was baseball and he chose to make the best of the academics in order to follow his dream.

I guess that brings me back to my point. If the kid is allowed to make the college choice based on what's important to him, the odds of his success greatly increase. I've sometimes wondered how he would have done if we had insisted on academics first in the selection. Would he have felt as positive about his experience? Would he have done as well in the classroom? Hard to say.

What I do know is because he made the choice and the commitment, he had an emotional investment in his overall success.

quote:

I guess that brings me back to my point. If the kid is allowed to make the college choice and commitment based on what's important to him, the odds of his success greatly increase.

Thank you for that.

The kid has to do the work on and off the field. At 18 it's time for him to learn to make decisions. He is old enough to decide to go to Iraq with weapon over his shoulder, if he chooses to.

Fungo - I think Gloria and I have had the same technology class!

quote:

If the kid is allowed to make the college choice and commitment based on what's important to him, the odds of his success greatly increase.

that sums it up!!

I hate to beat a dead horse, but for a kid wanting to play college baseball, I can't imagine the "net positives" of 4 yrs of study coupled with 4 yrs of "misery in baseball" - if other choices exist

also an important point to keep in mind regarding academics
(a modified baseball quote)

college is supposed to be hard, if it wasn't hard ANYBODY could do it!!





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Excellent posts by all regarding academics and athletics! That is why the college search process is unique for everyone.

Another question however that I feel has been answered before but I cannot find it. Let's suppose a school has 10 full baseball scholarships (not the 11.7 granted by the NCAA). Are these scholarships based on in-state our out of state tuition or neither?

For example if in-state tuition is $15,000 per year and out of state is $20,000 per year would the school only have $150,000 to work with if they had 10 scholarships or would they have $200,000 to work with based on out of state tuition? Maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe the school is just given 10 scholarships in my example and the school administration doesn't care if they are all out of state or in-state players? I realize that all schools do not charge the same for tuition but I am trying to figure out the in-state vs. out of state scenario.

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TxMom...Impressed with your posts...clean concise, little agenda, lots of humanity. Only 100+ posts but I would like to nominate you for "All Star" Status..... keep up the good work...keep raising the bar....



Rounding third...Good question. I'm sure that someone here has a concise answer...

.

Rounding third,
Been a while since I researched this but if I recall the in-state and out of state scholarship are both considered one scholarship by the NCAA. I think a college can offer 11.7 full rides to out of state students and be in compliance with the NCAA. State funding may influnce how in-state vs. out-of-state scholarships are awarded within that particular state. I'm sure there are those that can shed more light on this.
Fungo

Roundingthird,
Fungo is right (as usual ), it is a maximum of 11.7 full scholarships. The actual dollar value of in-state vs. out of state scholarship only matters with the school's budget, the NCAA still counts it as "1" against the 11.7 total. There is no NCAA "penalty" because the player is out of state and costs the school more $'s.

For scholarships, a school will chop up full scholarships into small parts, or percentages, to spread the money out. For instance, if it costs $20,000 to attend in-state, one player gets $5,000, another gets $7,000, a third might get $3,000, and the fourth also gets $5,000. That's four players splitting one scholarship. Out of state guys will generally receive more scholarship money to make up for the difference in out of state tuition costs, even though it might be the same percentage scholarship.

Schools have different standards for academic money that can be added onto baseball money. Some schools, many that you see competing for Omaha each and every year, can add money for low ACT scores or lower GPAs. This allows those schools to more easily recruit nationwide and get in out of state players at a much lower cost. For instance, let's say that a prominent southeastern school can offer an additional $5,000 off tuition for a player who scores a 21 on his ACT and an extra $3,000 for having a 3.0 GPA, they are at a distinct advantage over a midwest school whose standards are 25 and 3.5. If it costs $20,000 at the midwest school, and $25,000 at the southeastern school, then the midwest school has to spend more baseball money to get out of state players. Therefore quality of players is not as high at the midwest school because of the need to "fill in" with invited walk-on's and guys who will go to a school for less money or pay more out of pocket tuition.

As a guy who has coached at both the JUCO and DI levels, if a player has the chance to get into a DI school out of high school, I would advise to take the offer. The two big reasons for going the JUCO route should be if the player is not ready academically for a four year school, or if the player is a draft and follow and has been "sent" to a JUCO by an affiliated team. (Which, by the way, will no longer be the case with the new rule change that will not allow "draft and follows".) There is not a whole lot of "getting better" going on at junior colleges, and you will get into the four year school's program and start to fill a role with good instruction. Guys coming from JUCO's trying to go DI have to be ready to step in right away a fill a role. There has to be a lot of trust from the coaching staff that it will happen. I think the trend at the DI level is to "home grow" your own talent.

I was under the impression that any "institution monies", such as academic grants and need-based PRIVATE grants count toward the 11.7................(except HOPE/TAPS)type State programs.

That being considered, say the average cost of attendance at D1 University is $20,000. When you multiply by 11.7, you get a pool of allocable dollars of $234,000.

That can be spread to the roster in the form of athletic grants, academic grants, and need-based blind-based private institutional grants, but capped at $234,000.

NO?

Slugger,

Only when combined with baseball money. The standard is a 26 ACT or lower. If academic money is granted to a player with a 26 ACT or lower, and baseball scholarship money is also awarded, then the acedemic money will count towards the 11.7 most likely depending on the academic scholarship.

The more likely scenario that I was talking about, is if a school can offer a $5,000 academic scholarship for scoring a 22 ACT, but they don't offer "baseball money", that academic money will not be counted against the 11.7. As opposed to another school where a player needs to score a 27 ACT in order to receive $5,000. For the player who scores a 23 ACT, he can go to the first school, get $5,000 off tuition, or go to the second school, and need to get baseball money to match that.