As of this morning, the Reebok Vector-TLS 33-inch length bat has been decertified by the NCAA. I expect NFHS to follow suit.
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Go to wood and stop all this non sense.
TEENAGE BOYS DON'T USE ENOUGH WOOD THESE DAYS!!!!
quote:Originally posted by Will:
Go to wood and stop all this non sense.
The resources aren't there.
Great news, 4thGen was just conference Player of the week swinging the Vector-TLS.
quote:Originally posted by Will:
Go to wood and stop all this non sense.
AMEN!!!
quote:Originally posted by Matt13: The resources aren't there.
Matt - help me understand this?
quote:Originally posted by Flying Dutchman:quote:Originally posted by Matt13: The resources aren't there.
Matt - help me understand this?
There isn't enough usable wood to support the use of wood bats in amateur baseball. For over 20 years, it's been a problem to find the proper-quality wood for bats.
Not to mention, wood is more expensive than non-wood in the long run.
Matt:
That just does not make sense to me. Non-wood bats have gotten so expensive that you could purchase 6-8 wood bats for the price of one high tech bat. Recreation leagues could purchase half a dozen per team of durable wood composites. When 4thGen plays wood bat in the summer there seems to be plenty of wood bat manufacturers claiming to make pro grade bats. Perhaps I'm not understanding the issue, but I have not seen any proof that there would not be enough good wood. I'm sure it would hurt Bat makers' profit margins and revenue but would it make baseball a better stronger game?
That just does not make sense to me. Non-wood bats have gotten so expensive that you could purchase 6-8 wood bats for the price of one high tech bat. Recreation leagues could purchase half a dozen per team of durable wood composites. When 4thGen plays wood bat in the summer there seems to be plenty of wood bat manufacturers claiming to make pro grade bats. Perhaps I'm not understanding the issue, but I have not seen any proof that there would not be enough good wood. I'm sure it would hurt Bat makers' profit margins and revenue but would it make baseball a better stronger game?
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Matt:
That just does not make sense to me. Non-wood bats have gotten so expensive that you could purchase 6-8 wood bats for the price of one high tech bat. Recreation leagues could purchase half a dozen per team of durable wood composites. When 4thGen plays wood bat in the summer there seems to be plenty of wood bat manufacturers claiming to make pro grade bats. Perhaps I'm not understanding the issue, but I have not seen any proof that there would not be enough good wood. I'm sure it would hurt Bat makers' profit margins and revenue but would it make baseball a better stronger game?
How many bats would a HS player go through? Keep in mind, we aren't talking just good players here--everyone, from MS through college, would be using wood. There just isn't the supply available to support that, and if the demand increased dramatically, the cost would further increase, limiting any potential savings. Yeah, now you could get 6-8 bats (maybe,) but that number would decrease as prices increased, and you would find yourself spending more due to broken bats than you would on metal.
This has been an issue at least since the late '80s. Maple has mitigated the supply issue somewhat, but as we have seen, there are safety issues with that, as well.
Bat manufacturers would love to go to wood. It's less money to develop a wood bat design and they would make more money in the amount that need to be replaced. It's very telling that they don't focus on that as their product line--because they can't manufacture that many due to lack of supply.
The demand would increase which would only cause an increase in price if the supply was fixed. Don't you think we'd respond by planting more trees? Seems like we need much fewer of them for paper goods and building material? Can you point to anything that proves there is a shortage of wood available now to make bats? I've heard things second hand from metal bat makers but seen no evidence that is unbiased. Assuming a similar profit margin why would you want to sell a $40 bat instead of a $400 bat? I'm old enough to have played youth baseball with wood bats and we just didn't break them that often. With composites it would be a rare thing. Two summers ago 4thGen played ~30 college summer ball games and didn't break a bat. Last summer he broke 4. Can you point us to any evidence that what your saying is right? Thee is not enough wood suitable for bats and the industry could not recover to make enough if the game switched to wood?
This is a very serious discussion that has no easy answers.
When I created the Area Code games in 1987, I never questioned the decision to use wood bats. AC Baseball was the 1st tournament to do this.
We use wood in our International Australia/Goodwill Series and we use wood against the Japan HS teams who use mental, in spite of serious injury to pitchers.
USA Baseball uses wood in their National tournaments.
My son is the SSK Promotion Director and sell wood to the ML players.
Several years ago I had the opportunity to discuss with the Senior VP of the Yankees. He said "pro scouts have 2 difficulties"- Scouting the "heart" and scouting the bat.
Wood is available and composite bats offer a alternative.
You have the option to use metal, wood or composite.
Metal provides a false sense of performance!
Bob
When I created the Area Code games in 1987, I never questioned the decision to use wood bats. AC Baseball was the 1st tournament to do this.
We use wood in our International Australia/Goodwill Series and we use wood against the Japan HS teams who use mental, in spite of serious injury to pitchers.
USA Baseball uses wood in their National tournaments.
My son is the SSK Promotion Director and sell wood to the ML players.
Several years ago I had the opportunity to discuss with the Senior VP of the Yankees. He said "pro scouts have 2 difficulties"- Scouting the "heart" and scouting the bat.
Wood is available and composite bats offer a alternative.
You have the option to use metal, wood or composite.
Metal provides a false sense of performance!
Bob
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
The demand would increase which would only cause an increase in price if the supply was fixed. Don't you think we'd respond by planting more trees?
That's not going to affect the supply for years. Plus, a new tree does not guarantee wood for bats--it has to have the right wood (straight-grained,) which is a matter of chance, depending on weather, overall climate during its growth periods, parasitic attacks, etc.
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Seems like we need much fewer of them for paper goods and building material?
Huh? What does that have to do with anything? Hickory, ash, and maple are not used significantly for paper nor building materiel.
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Can you point to anything that proves there is a shortage of wood available now to make bats? I've heard things second hand from metal bat makers but seen no evidence that is unbiased.
That's where I've heard it. I also have a quote (from a wood-bat manufacturer who has several MLB clients) which is that he has trouble finding wood--if it wasn't for metal, HS would be getting bats made from MDF.
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Assuming a similar profit margin why would you want to sell a $40 bat instead of a $400 bat?
Because you'll have the same revenue with lower initial expenditures. (Plus, I'd love to know where you find pro-grade bats for $40.)
quote:Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
I'm old enough to have played youth baseball with wood bats and we just didn't break them that often. With composites it would be a rare thing. Two summers ago 4thGen played ~30 college summer ball games and didn't break a bat. Last summer he broke 4. Can you point us to any evidence that what your saying is right? Thee is not enough wood suitable for bats and the industry could not recover to make enough if the game switched to wood?
It's all empirical. Why wouldn't the bat manufacturers push for wood? They'd have the same market share, and have less capital outlay. It's not as if there's a secondary or tertiary market that's untapped--the size of the market is known and relatively fixed.
FYI, from a rules standpoint, composites are non-wood and still have to meet BBCOR standards.
"The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) has provided official notice that the BBCOR decertification process has been implemented for the Reebok Vector-TLS 33-inch model bat. Effectively immediately and until notified otherwise, this bat (Reebok Vector-TLS 33-inch length) should be considered non-compliant. It should be noted that the National Federation of State High School Associations has taken similar action." Shame on the NCAA and the NFSHSA.
I was thinking that there is zero integrity in the BBCOR stamp. ZERO! The consumer has NO guarantee a bat they purchase with a NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR stamp will have LEGAL useful life due to the ongoing BBCOR decertification fiasco. Further, there are now at least three bats manufactured by thee different bat manufactures floating around with BBCOR stamps that are illegal! At this rate parents, players coaches and umpires will need to carry a list around with them to determine if the BBCOR stamp on a given bat is valid. THE NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR STAMP HAS ZERO INTEGRITY.
I was thinking that there is zero integrity in the BBCOR stamp. ZERO! The consumer has NO guarantee a bat they purchase with a NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR stamp will have LEGAL useful life due to the ongoing BBCOR decertification fiasco. Further, there are now at least three bats manufactured by thee different bat manufactures floating around with BBCOR stamps that are illegal! At this rate parents, players coaches and umpires will need to carry a list around with them to determine if the BBCOR stamp on a given bat is valid. THE NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR STAMP HAS ZERO INTEGRITY.
Regarding the wood debate...
Matt is correct on many points. I have worked for one of the larger bat manufacturers and worked with several others. Availability of wood OF AN ACCEPTABLE GRADE FOR GOOD PERFORMANCE can be an issue at times. Think of the numbers we all talk about regarding the funneling of players moving on from HS to college, then college to pro ball. Now do that math backwards. If wood was implemented at the HS and college levels, demand would be at least 30-40x what it is now. Also, HS and college players are more likely to break bats due to lesser skills and thus more frequent handle and bat-end breaks.
All players want the good wood with correct grain patterns, etc. This only comes from a very low % of the billets cut.
Unfortunately, if wood was rolled out across all of these levels, many of the HS kids would end up with the cheaper, lower grade wood. Performance would be disappointing and breakage rates would rise. Safety would, again, become an issue – this time due to broken wood concerns.
I do not, however, agree with Matt's views that the manufacturers would rather make wood bats. This may be true for the small companies but the larger companies make a much higher profit margin from their high end metal and composite bats. Once the engineering and design is complete and the expensive molds are made, mass production kicks in and initial expenses are quickly recouped.
JMO... I know I’m the minority here but I’ve stated before that I also think it would hurt the HS game. My son likes using a good wood bat. I like watching the better HS players use wood in summer and fall. But the average HS player will struggle to hit well with wood, there would be far fewer extra base hits and runs scored and it would become difficult for the casual fan to watch and enjoy. Most purists would love it but there aren't enough of us. The game would suffer.
I personally would like to see it at the college level, but again, the turnstiles would take a hit with the casual fan.
That said, I cannot argue that the "crack" of the bat is a beautiful thing.
Matt is correct on many points. I have worked for one of the larger bat manufacturers and worked with several others. Availability of wood OF AN ACCEPTABLE GRADE FOR GOOD PERFORMANCE can be an issue at times. Think of the numbers we all talk about regarding the funneling of players moving on from HS to college, then college to pro ball. Now do that math backwards. If wood was implemented at the HS and college levels, demand would be at least 30-40x what it is now. Also, HS and college players are more likely to break bats due to lesser skills and thus more frequent handle and bat-end breaks.
All players want the good wood with correct grain patterns, etc. This only comes from a very low % of the billets cut.
Unfortunately, if wood was rolled out across all of these levels, many of the HS kids would end up with the cheaper, lower grade wood. Performance would be disappointing and breakage rates would rise. Safety would, again, become an issue – this time due to broken wood concerns.
I do not, however, agree with Matt's views that the manufacturers would rather make wood bats. This may be true for the small companies but the larger companies make a much higher profit margin from their high end metal and composite bats. Once the engineering and design is complete and the expensive molds are made, mass production kicks in and initial expenses are quickly recouped.
JMO... I know I’m the minority here but I’ve stated before that I also think it would hurt the HS game. My son likes using a good wood bat. I like watching the better HS players use wood in summer and fall. But the average HS player will struggle to hit well with wood, there would be far fewer extra base hits and runs scored and it would become difficult for the casual fan to watch and enjoy. Most purists would love it but there aren't enough of us. The game would suffer.
I personally would like to see it at the college level, but again, the turnstiles would take a hit with the casual fan.
That said, I cannot argue that the "crack" of the bat is a beautiful thing.
quote:Originally posted by Crusader Dad:
"The National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) has provided official notice that the BBCOR decertification process has been implemented for the Reebok Vector-TLS 33-inch model bat. Effectively immediately and until notified otherwise, this bat (Reebok Vector-TLS 33-inch length) should be considered non-compliant. It should be noted that the National Federation of State High School Associations has taken similar action." Shame on the NCAA and the NFSHSA.
I was thinking that there is zero integrity in the BBCOR stamp. ZERO! The consumer has NO guarantee a bat they purchase with a NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR stamp will have LEGAL useful life due to the ongoing BBCOR decertification fiasco. Further, there are now at least three bats manufactured by thee different bat manufactures floating around with BBCOR stamps that are illegal! At this rate parents, players coaches and umpires will need to carry a list around with them to determine if the BBCOR stamp on a given bat is valid. THE NCAA / NFSHSA approved BBCOR STAMP HAS ZERO INTEGRITY.
Crusader,
It is the bat manufacturer who either decided to push the testing limits or got lazy with specs.
Slowpitch softball went through this about ten years ago. It got quite a bit uglier before things settled down. The end result was, in fact, somewhat safer bats.
Cabbage Dad,
The way I see it each bat will need to be tested individually and then stamped with the BBCOR logo. Then and only then will the BBCOR stamp guarantee a legal useful life for any given bat. Recalling bats willy nilly after the BBCOR stamped bats are in the market place and/or in the hands of the student athlete cheapens the BBCOR stamp.
Say you only ate Kosher due to religious beliefs. You strictly purchased and consumed food with the certified kosher stamp, only. What good would it do you, if after you consumed the certified kosher food if it was recalled for non compliance? I guess you would have to say the kosher stamp does not ensure the food is Kosher. What if three different food items produced by three different manufactures within 9 months; were stamped/certified kosher and were later recalled? Call me crazy... but me thinks in this hypothetical the kosher stamp on food products lacks integrity?
I'm not saying it is NCAA's fault that some batches of bats fail inspection. I am saying that what is going on with NCAA's desertification testing removes the integrity of the BBCOR stamp. The BBCOR stamp has NO value to the end consumer if anytime during its useful legal life a BBCOR bat is ruled illegal. You cannot refute that point. If the NCAA is going to continue this practice the BBCOR stamp is worthless to the bat purchaser.
The way I see it each bat will need to be tested individually and then stamped with the BBCOR logo. Then and only then will the BBCOR stamp guarantee a legal useful life for any given bat. Recalling bats willy nilly after the BBCOR stamped bats are in the market place and/or in the hands of the student athlete cheapens the BBCOR stamp.
Say you only ate Kosher due to religious beliefs. You strictly purchased and consumed food with the certified kosher stamp, only. What good would it do you, if after you consumed the certified kosher food if it was recalled for non compliance? I guess you would have to say the kosher stamp does not ensure the food is Kosher. What if three different food items produced by three different manufactures within 9 months; were stamped/certified kosher and were later recalled? Call me crazy... but me thinks in this hypothetical the kosher stamp on food products lacks integrity?
I'm not saying it is NCAA's fault that some batches of bats fail inspection. I am saying that what is going on with NCAA's desertification testing removes the integrity of the BBCOR stamp. The BBCOR stamp has NO value to the end consumer if anytime during its useful legal life a BBCOR bat is ruled illegal. You cannot refute that point. If the NCAA is going to continue this practice the BBCOR stamp is worthless to the bat purchaser.