How much of a change in the release point does it take to make an 80MPH FB go from center of the zone, up a foot?
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According to DriveLine, about 1º.
MrBumstead posted:According to DriveLine, about 1º.
Thanx for posting that.
This concept stuck out for me. Proprioception is the correct answer. It is often called “feel” or “sense” by coaches and analysts, but it’s far more complex than that. Proprioception is not a conscious act – it is a map of your muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, and nerves that has been built up over hundreds of thousands of reps of throwing objects or similar patterns that integrate themselves into this neural net of human action.
That shows how hard it is to command the ball. Coaches talk about repeatable mechanics and that certainly is important but even moving the big body parts always the same doesn't guarantee that you hit the release point always the same.
So it is probably a combination of gross motor skills (how you move the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder, arm) which basically is repeatable mechanics and fine motor skills (proprioreception, fingers, forearm).
That doesn't mean repeatable mechanics are not important, if the big parts are already out of whack it becomes even harder since there is an extra variable but it is not always the only reason.
I'm also not sure how much you can improve the fine motor skills. The gross motor skills like balance, foot landing.. can certainly be improved but the final 10 inches of command might very well an inherited skill that can only be improved so much.
Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
adbono, EXACTLY! 
I had a guy tell my son the other day the primary difference in successful pitchers from college baseball to the MLB was location vs command and how mentally trough you are to slow the game down. The ones who can command their pitches anywhere/anytime and keep the game at a consistent pace stay in the bigs.
Also agree on the bottom up, one of the best PCs in the country told my son this summer it all starts with your plant foot, backwards before forwards, break hands before moving forward and reaching out big with glove arm. We'll see how that works out.
adbono posted:Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
I agree that it begins from the ground up, which is why I get crazy about the condition of the mound. Most people just blow off the hole in front of the rubber, the soft and loose dirt in the landing area, or the height and slope of the mound, but those things are important! What’s really stupid is, those are the easiest things to fix, but in general, even if they’re thought about, most folks just assume the pitcher will make adjustments for them the same way they do for an umpire’s strike zone.
Stats4Gnats posted:adbono posted:Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
I agree that it begins from the ground up, which is why I get crazy about the condition of the mound. Most people just blow off the hole in front of the rubber, the soft and loose dirt in the landing area, or the height and slope of the mound, but those things are important! What’s really stupid is, those are the easiest things to fix, but in general, even if they’re thought about, most folks just assume the pitcher will make adjustments for them the same way they do for an umpire’s strike zone.
^^^^This^^^^
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
It's that elbow angle and release point that will dictate where the ball goes and that is what the OP is about. You are talking about what brings Velo.
Stats4Gnats posted:adbono posted:Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
I agree that it begins from the ground up, which is why I get crazy about the condition of the mound. Most people just blow off the hole in front of the rubber, the soft and loose dirt in the landing area, or the height and slope of the mound, but those things are important! What’s really stupid is, those are the easiest things to fix, but in general, even if they’re thought about, most folks just assume the pitcher will make adjustments for them the same way they do for an umpire’s strike zone.
I couldn't agree with you more about that STATS. Grooming the mound the way it needs to be is a responsibility that every pitcher needs to own - even if that means delaying a game between innings to fill in a hole and compact it. It adds an unnecessary element of difficulty to try and throw from (or stride into a hole). Pitching is hard enough without adding an obstacle.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
It's that elbow angle and release point that will dictate where the ball goes and that is what the OP is about. You are talking about what brings Velo.
The OP is about release point. The answer to the OP points out (correctly) how a minor variation in release point at delivery has a pretty big impact on where the ball ends up when it gets to the plate. Assuming that you want to command the baseball (that means throw it where you want it to go) its easy to deduce that you better get pretty consistent with the release point. My last post about this was calling attention to all the things that have to be consistent BEFORE you get to delivery and even have a chance to be consistent with a release point. If you throw the baseball with the right mechanics you will command the baseball AND throw harder. Many would argue that the correct engagement of the legs and hips is the most important link in the throwing chain. Others may say that glove side mechanics are just as important - and way more neglected. It is also crucial that the trunk rotates up and over a resistant (not soft) stride leg. These are all critical elements of throwing mechanics that you (incorrectly) labeled as "secondary". So I'm not just talking about velo. I am talking about how to properly throw a baseball and how that relates to the OP.
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
It's that elbow angle and release point that will dictate where the ball goes and that is what the OP is about. You are talking about what brings Velo.
The OP is about release point. The answer to the OP points out (correctly) how a minor variation in release point at delivery has a pretty big impact on where the ball ends up when it gets to the plate. Assuming that you want to command the baseball (that means throw it where you want it to go) its easy to deduce that you better get pretty consistent with the release point. My last post about this was calling attention to all the things that have to be consistent BEFORE you get to delivery and even have a chance to be consistent with a release point. If you throw the baseball with the right mechanics you will command the baseball AND throw harder. Many would argue that the correct engagement of the legs and hips is the most important link in the throwing chain. Others may say that glove side mechanics are just as important - and way more neglected. It is also crucial that the trunk rotates up and over a resistant (not soft) stride leg. These are all critical elements of throwing mechanics that you (incorrectly) labeled as "secondary". So I'm not just talking about velo. I am talking about how to properly throw a baseball and how that relates to the OP.
I see your point and agree with everything you said, but to the actual OP dropping your elbow will change the release point. I've seen several kids, including mine not do half of the stuff you mentioned and they can move their 80mph fastball up a foot as the OP discussed. But if their elbow drops it's not going to go where they want it to go.
CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
It's that elbow angle and release point that will dictate where the ball goes and that is what the OP is about. You are talking about what brings Velo.
The OP is about release point. The answer to the OP points out (correctly) how a minor variation in release point at delivery has a pretty big impact on where the ball ends up when it gets to the plate. Assuming that you want to command the baseball (that means throw it where you want it to go) its easy to deduce that you better get pretty consistent with the release point. My last post about this was calling attention to all the things that have to be consistent BEFORE you get to delivery and even have a chance to be consistent with a release point. If you throw the baseball with the right mechanics you will command the baseball AND throw harder. Many would argue that the correct engagement of the legs and hips is the most important link in the throwing chain. Others may say that glove side mechanics are just as important - and way more neglected. It is also crucial that the trunk rotates up and over a resistant (not soft) stride leg. These are all critical elements of throwing mechanics that you (incorrectly) labeled as "secondary". So I'm not just talking about velo. I am talking about how to properly throw a baseball and how that relates to the OP.
I see your point and agree with everything you said, but to the actual OP dropping your elbow will change the release point. I've seen several kids, including mine not do half of the stuff you mentioned and they can move their 80mph fastball up a foot as the OP discussed. But if their elbow drops it's not going to go where they want it to go.
Most kids don't do half the stuff I mentioned - including some that are pretty successful at the HS level. And most people (including a lot that call themselves pitching coaches) don't have a good understanding of what I was describing. Think of pitching instruction as a pie cut into 6 pieces. You can find a lot of guys that know something about 1 or 2 of the pieces - but very few that know about the whole pie !
adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:adbono posted:CaCO3Girl posted:Personally I think the legs, hips, trunk, head, glove arm, shoulder....etc are all secondary. Consistent elbow angle is the biggest factor. As for the OP, the average human wouldn't be able to detect the difference in the release point, that is what makes pitchers so amazing.
Throwing begins from the ground up. If you are throwing the ball properly the legs, hips, and trunk are always the primary considerations. When you get consistency with the lower half & the trunk then (and only then) can you get consistent with an arm slot and a release point. Then you can command where you throw the baseball. When proper momentum is created with the body (and it starts with the big muscles - legs, hips, etc.) the arm goes along for the ride. Focusing on "elbow angle" (I'm assuming you mean at delivery - but that is not a common term) and considering everything that leads up to it to be "secondary" is the ultimate definition of getting the cart in front of the horse.
It's that elbow angle and release point that will dictate where the ball goes and that is what the OP is about. You are talking about what brings Velo.
The OP is about release point. The answer to the OP points out (correctly) how a minor variation in release point at delivery has a pretty big impact on where the ball ends up when it gets to the plate. Assuming that you want to command the baseball (that means throw it where you want it to go) its easy to deduce that you better get pretty consistent with the release point. My last post about this was calling attention to all the things that have to be consistent BEFORE you get to delivery and even have a chance to be consistent with a release point. If you throw the baseball with the right mechanics you will command the baseball AND throw harder. Many would argue that the correct engagement of the legs and hips is the most important link in the throwing chain. Others may say that glove side mechanics are just as important - and way more neglected. It is also crucial that the trunk rotates up and over a resistant (not soft) stride leg. These are all critical elements of throwing mechanics that you (incorrectly) labeled as "secondary". So I'm not just talking about velo. I am talking about how to properly throw a baseball and how that relates to the OP.
I see your point and agree with everything you said, but to the actual OP dropping your elbow will change the release point. I've seen several kids, including mine not do half of the stuff you mentioned and they can move their 80mph fastball up a foot as the OP discussed. But if their elbow drops it's not going to go where they want it to go.
Most kids don't do half the stuff I mentioned - including some that are pretty successful at the HS level. And most people (including a lot that call themselves pitching coaches) don't have a good understanding of what I was describing. Think of pitching instruction as a pie cut into 6 pieces. You can find a lot of guys that know something about 1 or 2 of the pieces - but very few that know about the whole pie !
I can believe, and agree with, every word of that.
baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Thanks. ( I think) Wish I would have known all this when I played. I was a hard thrower back when there weren't that many 90 plus guys. I knew none of this then - which is why my shoulder is shot now. In fact, when I played in college, we didn't even have a pitching coach. We did bullpens on our own & picked up tips from teammates (that signed pro contracts) & were working out with us prior to reporting to spring training - and this was at a D1 school that is in the SEC ! Now I try to teach HS age kids the things that would have helped me then - had I known.
TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Would you not consider this a personal attack? Speak to the post if you disagree.
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Would you not consider this a personal attack? Speak to the post if you disagree.
A personal attack on my friend baseballmom, no way, lol!
I KNOW she understands, she wasn't one of those people that I referred my comment to.
adbono posted:TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Thanks. ( I think) Wish I would have known all this when I played. I was a hard thrower back when there weren't that many 90 plus guys. I knew none of this then - which is why my shoulder is shot now. In fact, when I played in college, we didn't even have a pitching coach. We did bullpens on our own & picked up tips from teammates (that signed pro contracts) & were working out with us prior to reporting to spring training - and this was at a D1 school that is in the SEC ! Now I try to teach HS age kids the things that would have helped me then - had I known.
From baseballmom and myself, keep up the good work. If more people knew more about how it all works, there would be less injury.
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Would you not consider this a personal attack? Speak to the post if you disagree.
A personal attack on my friend baseballmom, no way, lol!
I KNOW she understands, she wasn't one of those people that I referred my comment to.
So there are only 3 posters that know what they are talking about according to you...baseballmom was one, who are the other 2, and what makes the others wrong in what they said?
Stats
MrBumstead
Dominik85
CaCO3Girl
Adbono
Shoveit4Ks
I would like to nominate myself as the 4th person who knows what he's talking about. (Full Disclosure: that's just my own opinion, some parents think I'm an idiot!)
ironhorse posted:I would like to nominate myself as the 4th person who knows what he's talking about. (Full Disclosure: that's just my own opinion, some parents think I'm an idiot!)
Awesome ! Jump on in, but the water can be a little choppy !!
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Would you not consider this a personal attack? Speak to the post if you disagree.
A personal attack on my friend baseballmom, no way, lol!
I KNOW she understands, she wasn't one of those people that I referred my comment to.
So there are only 3 posters that know what they are talking about according to you...baseballmom was one, who are the other 2, and what makes the others wrong in what they said?
Stats
MrBumstead
Dominik85
CaCO3Girl
Adbono
Shoveit4Ks
Really? You are asking TPM to chime in and say who she thinks is talking out their a$$??? You really are reaching here cacogirl!
I think, from my perspective, that if you have a guy like adbuona go into the detail he has in his post, has played the game at a high level, is a professional pitching coach...well, he gets the nods of knowing his nuts and bolts. Eye test passed. I am not a pitcher's parent so I never profess to give pitching advice/criticism that exceeds "that kid had good stuff." My son is a MIF and I never was. I don't get into specifics on anything here that I am not an expert on. Not saying someone (even myself) can't post opinions on here, we all do. But pitching is such a freaking science that credibility is earned.
I can talk with expert level knowledge about disarming bombs, the entire series of Gilligan's Island and Breaking Bad...and how to run a Toyota Prius out of gas when your 11 year old daughter is in the back seat saying "Dad we aren't going to make it!" Bring it on!
San Diego...Yep, as soon as I read adbonos' post, I knew he had been a high level pitcher, as his profile states. And, even better, knows how to communicate the sequencing of movement, the why's & wherefores of cause & effect, an "in the zone" affect.
Glad to have you aboard, adbono! & good luck to your boys!
ironhorse posted:I would like to nominate myself as the 4th person who knows what he's talking about. (Full Disclosure: that's just my own opinion, some parents think I'm an idiot!)
You're in ironhorse!
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:baseballmom posted:adbono, EXACTLY!
There are only 3 posters, in this topic that actually know what they are talking about.
Would you not consider this a personal attack? Speak to the post if you disagree.
FYI, when someone posts, the original post is sent if you have an alert on from that webster. I would like to know who it was that has warned me about personal attacks on others? I wasn't attacking anyone, just stating an opinion.
And what was that stuff meant that you posted about how kids mess up their trunks, legs, their push off ( pitchers actually don't push off the rubber), mess up their stride and still get the ball where it's supposed to be at 80mph and a foot higher as long as they don't drop their elbow? Maybe you meant arm slot? I just am not sure what you were trying to get across.
Are u talking about young pitchers who still haven't got a consistent release point? That's why adbono was 100% correct on stating that one needs to get their ducks in a row before consistency takes place, aso in the link posted, to avoid pitcher injuries. You dismissed his correct info as secondary, that is incorrect.
The link posted by Mr. Bumstead was excellent, did you read it?
Baseballmom only posted 2 words. She technically gets no credit for that post.
The release point is not determined by elbow angle, as the elbow should always be fully extended, or should be at release point.
SDR brought some good points. Thank you.
TPM:
The administrators have warned you about personal attacks on others, which you know.
As I said above, which is why I deleted it from the follow up post, a pitcher can mess up on all the things Adbono mentioned and still get the ball over the plate and one foot higher if his elbow doesn't drop. It isn't 18 year olds throwing 80mph it's the 12u-15u crowds, they drop their elbow and the release point is all messed up. The OP is discussing release point and 80mph.
As to the injuries.....elbow dropping and/or arm coming out so the kid almost throws side arm causes almost all the pitching injuries I have seen from 12u-15u.
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM:
The administrators have warned you about personal attacks on others, which you know.
THIS IS A LIE. Whoever told you that is a liar.
In all the years that I have been here I have never used that word.
Didn't know you have become such an expert on pitching.
TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM:
The administrators have warned you about personal attacks on others, which you know.
THIS IS A LIE. Whoever told you that is a liar.
In all the years that I have been here I have never used that word.
Didn't know you have become such an expert on pitching.
I'm taking this to a PM
I am gonna get some popcorn and a drink. This is getting good!
CaCO3Girl posted:TPM posted:CaCO3Girl posted:TPM:
The administrators have warned you about personal attacks on others, which you know.
THIS IS A LIE. Whoever told you that is a liar.
In all the years that I have been here I have never used that word.
Didn't know you have become such an expert on pitching.
I'm taking this to a PM
NOOOOO!
I'm one of the guys who don't know what they talk about but I do it anyway
.
I know some things about hitting but take my pitching advice with a grain of salt.
Dominik85 posted:I'm one of the guys who don't know what they talk about but I do it anyway
I know some things about hitting but take my pitching advice with a grain of salt.
My apologies to those who genuinely have some clue about the general mechanics of pitching. I know that you probably read alot about the game because you take time to learn about it.
But when someone tells me they are pretty knowledgeable about how 12u and 15u pitching works, I really do have to let it go.
TPM posted:Dominik85 posted:I'm one of the guys who don't know what they talk about but I do it anyway
I know some things about hitting but take my pitching advice with a grain of salt.
My apologies to those who genuinely have some clue about the general mechanics of pitching. I know that you probably read alot about the game because you take time to learn about it.
But when someone tells me they are pretty knowledgeable about how 12u and 15u pitching works, I really do have to let it go.
Thanks so much for your detailed help. Future readers will really benefit from your insights on this thread. Oh wait, they won't.
Caco gal, your snide remarks & attempts to pick fights is totally uncalled for. Do the right thing...delete the above. Then, learn that you have a choice to ignore some posts, threads, subjects.
baseballmom posted:Caco gal, your snide remarks & attempts to pick fights is totally uncalled for. Do the right thing...delete the above. Then, learn that you have a choice to ignore some posts, threads, subjects.
I'm making a point and I've made it over the PM as well. Coming on a thread and saying your wrong, your naive, you will learn someday, or you are ignorant of how this works is NOT helpful.
People come here to learn, so people who have been here awhile should pop onto a thread with more than the equivalent of the Molotov cocktail that went something like "only three people know what they are talking about". Is that really helpful?
It's ok baseballmom, thank you.
I'l repeat, as nicely as possible, since you admit you are one who professes you "come to learn"...Hoping this time you'll get it...
baseballmom posted:Caco gal, your snide remarks & attempts to pick fights is totally uncalled for. Do the right thing...delete the above. Then, learn that you have a choice to ignore some posts, threads, subjects.
The point(s) that you do continually make is that you simply do not know what you are talking about concerning the recruiting process, the way Milb or MLB works, proper pitching processes, etc, etc, etc.
It's a "good thing" to walk on by some posts...It's not a good thing to pick fights & argue something that you're still learning about, namely baseball!