Robot umpires at home plate moving up to Triple-A for 2022, one step away from major league baseball
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Automation in MLB is moving at a glacial pace. Put a bunch of old guys, lawyers and labor union contracts together, you get slow, grinding stifled progress. What are they waiting for?
I've never seen any of the games that have used this. How does it work? Obviously you still need an ump at home plate to make calls other than balls and strikes. Does the computer signal him on each pitch and he call it? Does the pitch call show up on a screen? Does the announcer call it? So confused lol. As much as I dislike umps missing balls and strike calls, I think this is going overboard to fix a problem that could be fixed in other ways.....like maybe just get rid of the umps that are horrible lol
RipkenFanSon really changed his view of robo umps from a few years ago. He is a BIG fan now. The settings have gotten a lot more accurate. In the past, there have been videos where balls near the ground have rung up hitters.
Son is a OBP type of hitter who has a fairly good eye at the plate. He has gotten strikes called on pitches several inches off plate. Robo umps also takes away the element of catchers pulling back pitches from outside the zone into strike zone which are balls. Some umps call those. Son gets several statistical reports I think weekly. One month showed that 60% of the pitches he took which were called strikes were outside the strikezone. Now if they can also institute instant replay at all levels for bad calls on the bases
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@Buckeye 2015 posted:I've never seen any of the games that have used this. How does it work? Obviously you still need an ump at home plate to make calls other than balls and strikes. Does the computer signal him on each pitch and he call it? Does the pitch call show up on a screen? Does the announcer call it? So confused lol. As much as I dislike umps missing balls and strike calls, I think this is going overboard to fix a problem that could be fixed in other ways.....like maybe just get rid of the umps that are horrible lol
I think the ump has an earpiece for what the call is. Call that he hears is automated
So the role of the umpire is just to theatrically make calls, then?
And to frantically bang the side of his head when his earpiece cuts out...
@RJM posted:Robot umpires at home plate moving up to Triple-A for 2022, one step away from major league baseball
I wonder how/if this might be discussed during the negotiations between MLB and the MLBPA.
All I can imagine is some automated voice at a stadium bellowing strike or ball... Because it's not the umpire's call.
Maybe like the experiment they tried in hockey a few years ago with a chip in the puck that caused it to glow certain colors on TV at certain speeds.... A strike causes the plate to turn red and ball is green. Sucks for those with Red/Green color blindness (think Bills vs Jets color rush game a few years back).
Kind of takes the drama out of called strike 3 punch outs - especially if the guy with the earpiece in doesn't believe the pitch was a strike, but robo calls it that way. Sheepishly spoken with a question mark, "strike3?!?!"
What about the collective bargaining talks about implementing this?
Years from now parents will be at their youth baseball tourney or high school games asking where's the robo-ump?
I hate the idea of robo umps, but maybe MLB can use it for leverage to break the umpire union and get rid of some of the terrible umps.
Pitchers take, there goes the outside part of the plate I used to own.
So, if this will essentially take away the 3 inches off the plate outside that was almost always a strike, will they give the pitchers the upper part of the zone between the belt and letters?
Like to see how this also affects breaking pitches and what is called when the pitch crosses through the three dimensional concept of a strike zone, ie when that slider hits the very front outside corner of the plate. Or the low sinker that catches the front of the strikezone, etc.
really surprised that they implemented this at AAA level. I would think the players union would have more to say about it, probably 1/3 of the AAA rosters are players on the 40 man roster and members of the union. Pitchers doing rehab stints might have some interesting comments about some calls.
I think they have the technology to do things correctly, players are so use to getting the reports after games whether they are trackman, rapsodo, or whatever new technology they have, that the info will probably not be disputed much.
Too bad they won't have a real robot - like a Boston Robotics type robot - behind the dish. It could do a backflip or something on a punch out. It could mess with players by pretending to reset its cap and un-velcro and velcro its batting gloves after each pitch, maybe even embarrassing them enough to keep them in the batter's box.
7th game of the World Series and my team is one game away from winning its first championship in decades, I'd rather have Mr. Robot calling balls and strikes than Angel Hernandez.
Bring it on.
It's needed more in the college game than in the pros. The accuracy average for major league umps is 92%. According to the Trackman at my son's DI field over the course of last season, the college crews averaged about 10 points below that.
After one 73% performance on a Friday night last season, the entire crew was lifted and replaced for the balance of the weekend. It's not just the fans behind home plate who are in position to see what's going on these days.
The sooner ball and strike calling is automated with a workable system, the better. Badly inconsistent calls rob batters and pitchers, alike; diminishing the game.
I'm just waiting for the moment a hitter is convinced the robot made a bad call and when he turns to argue he sees this big tin can flashing S, S, S for strike. Incensed, he goes after the machine with his bat like Marichal went after Roseboro.
Since the batter is clubbing a machine I might actually approve.
@smokeminside posted:I'm just waiting for the moment a hitter is convinced the robot made a bad call and when he turns to argue he sees this big tin can flashing S, S, S for strike. Incensed, he goes after the machine with his bat like Marichal went after Roseboro.
Since the batter is clubbing a machine I might actually approve.
I'm gonna go back to Boston Robotics. If the batter attacks with a bat, Robot Blue snaps him like a twig.
I hope this fails, implodes and is a disaster. Using this on a full time basis is not necessary. MOST umpires on most pitches are fine and the call is 100% accurate. Time would be better spent getting rid of umpires like Ángel Hernández. If you want to install the technology and use it for limited "X" appeals per team per game on the umpire's call, that's fine. But there is no need to take away calling balls and strikes away from umpires.
MLB Umpires are probably correct between 95% and 99% of the time.
Here's what is going to happen with the robo system: It's going to call a pitch which is technically a strike as a strike. This will be the sweeping breaking ball where one-quarter of the ball just crosses the very corner of the FRONT of home plate and then the catcher catches the ball 8 inches off the plate. When the batter hears it called a strike, he will say it's wrong. And perception is reality. To the players, the robo ump will be wrong one to five percent of the time. So, what are we really improving here?
Prepster said it....92% umpire accuracy in the strike zone. That is what I've read as well. Sorry 92% is just not good enough in my opinion, and I think MLB agrees as this is a multi-billion dollar business where everything matters. This is especially true for the postseason. The value ($millions) of a franchise can hang on 8% of 300 pitches thrown in a normal MLB game...or 24 pitches total. By the way, the number of MLB pitches in a game is rising. The money is just too big to leave 8% to chance. If I'm an Owner, GM, Manager, Bench Coach, Player or even a fan, I want accuracy or as close to 100% as possible. Why wouldn't I? I find it interesting that people will settle for 92% so we can have humans behind the plate inaccurately calling balls and strikes because that is the way we've always done it since 1846 at the Elysian Fields in Hoboken (I used to live a block over from the site...very cool area). Technology and automation can make this happen instantaneously with robot umpires that work with human umpires to manage the game the most accurate way possible.
https://www.forbes.com/mlb-val...st/#tab%3Cimg%20src=
As always, JMO.
Sorry 92% is just not good enough in my opinion, and I think MLB agrees as this is a multi-billion dollar business where everything matters. This is especially true for the postseason.
I agree with this. But I also am flummoxed by MLB's failure to maximize the performance of its human umpires. The brutal funnel that all baseball parents know works endlessly to send only the very best of the best players to the top level of play, where they have to work tirelessly to stay there or they'll be discarded. If umpires were subjected to the same process on the way up, with constant training and correction once they get there, I think their accuracy would be very close to 100%.
As a pitcher’s parent after watching someone get a free pass or a hit after what seemed like a third strike to me via my perfect viewing angle in the stands or on TV (lol) I’ll say something like “Seems like you were squeezed a bit today”. There’s only been a couple times in college or lower-level pro ball where the response will be something like “Yeah, that blue was trash today”, mostly it’s “The blue was ok and pretty consistent” In the MLB, he’s talked about how amazingly consistent the blues are, and takes the anomalies as part of the game. Parentally, I handle the anomalies with profanity under my breath in public, and not so much at home…
I will say at the MLB level a great catcher that understands the pitch movement of his staff does steal a few strikes. It’s a game within a game I’d not paid attention to until last year, and I think I’ll miss it if it goes away.
That 92% is as a whole. That number would go way up if you removed Ángel Hernández and a few others.
@Francis7 posted:That 92% is as a whole. That number would go way up if you removed Ángel Hernández and a few others.
4860 MLB regular season games with between 26-43 games in the postseason. Let's round that up for simplicity's sake to 4900 total games in a recent MLB season. You have 19 umpire crews of 4-man crews to cover those 4900 games. http://www.stevetheump.com/Pro....htm#2021_postseason
By my math (please correct me if I'm off) that means total MLB 4900 games / 19 crews = 258 games per crew if they worked every game possible but we know they don't...they get breaks. But let's stick with the numbers. 258 game per crew / 4-man crews gives us 64.5 raw opportunities behind the plate as they rotate umpiring positions on the field. I believe that number is lower because of time off, vacations, travel, crew breaks, etc.... We're looking at one (albeit terrible...Hernandez) homeplate umpire impacting a little over 1% of the total season games + playoff games. If you removed Angel Herndandez and a half dozen others, I don't see it having a major impact on improving the 92% accuracy number. Artificial Intelligence and Machine Learning gives you a consistent 100%.
JMO.
Do we notice more now because most t.v./streaming broadcasts have the rectangle superimposed over the picture all the time? Never mind the 3-d rotation of the plate in replay.
Personally, I hate it when they do that - it is privileging broadcast over the live baseball experience. I feel the same way about some of the graphics in football games.
Next will be robot players. Would baseball be better if they make fewer errors than real players, too?
I wonder how many of the misses are game situation and score related? Say the score is 18-3 and it's a flight day for both teams and the umpiring crew. At that point, does anyone care if the umpire starts falling borderline balls as strikes to get the game moving along? You won't get that with the robot.
I am for Robot Umps all the way down to the little league level. I have been waiting for a good time to share this awful call against my son in the 2016 LLWS. He was up against an excellent Chinese Taipei pitcher and would have jacked him if not for the ump.
LL umpiring can be brutal. Umpires don’t get to Williamsport on ability. They get there on tenure and the good ole boy network. A long time umpire from our LL did every level including Williamsport. He was brutal. He was in terrible shape. He couldn’t move. He didn’t know rules.
Imagine calling a base runner out at the plate for not sliding/not avoiding collision when there wasn’t a play. On a wild pitch and no play at the plate the pitcher ran in front of the base runner to cover home.
At Williamsport LL umpires are under pressure to try to keep games in a time window for tv scheduling purposes.
However, nothing is going to top our USSSA going to a nut house halfway house looking for umpiring recruits. After three innings and about ten player ejections (kid ejected for saying “What?” on a called third that bounced on the plate) the opposing coach and I decided to walk off the field, chase down the site director and demand more competent umpiring for a 13u game.
The clown umpires did 10u for another weekend before being terminated. They didn’t know the rules or strike zone.
@Francis7 posted:I hope this fails, implodes and is a disaster. Using this on a full time basis is not necessary. MOST umpires on most pitches are fine and the call is 100% accurate. Time would be better spent getting rid of umpires like Ángel Hernández. If you want to install the technology and use it for limited "X" appeals per team per game on the umpire's call, that's fine. But there is no need to take away calling balls and strikes away from umpires.
MLB Umpires are probably correct between 95% and 99% of the time.
Here's what is going to happen with the robo system: It's going to call a pitch which is technically a strike as a strike. This will be the sweeping breaking ball where one-quarter of the ball just crosses the very corner of the FRONT of home plate and then the catcher catches the ball 8 inches off the plate. When the batter hears it called a strike, he will say it's wrong. And perception is reality. To the players, the robo ump will be wrong one to five percent of the time. So, what are we really improving here?
A catcher's dad view. 
Much more of the missed balls/strikes calls are balls called strikes, rather than strikes called balls. Occasionally, you'll hear a pitcher think/say "Where was that?"
If you haven't been in their shoes.... At U10 it's typically parabola ball with batters that are not 6' tall. If your umpire is 6' tall, then unless he's sitting down it's a challenge to call. Most of those games are called by "newer umpires", so yeah wysiwyg. I'm sure there's some "encouragement" to keep games moving and just call strikes to keep batters swinging (which they generally don't at that age). Beyond that - after a playoff game last year my son sent a text of some statcast picture showing the s/b call percentages with misses being highlighted on the screen capture - suffice to say the umpire didn't hit even 90%, some really bad. At that level - one would hope they pick based on accuracy, but even there (like LL) tenure is a factor. I could make generalizations to other areas of life where we seem to choose based on who's turn it is next or who's been there the longest, but that's a rat hole discussion.
@IAmThatGuy posted:I am for Robot Umps all the way down to the little league level. I have been waiting for a good time to share this awful call against my son in the 2016 LLWS. He was up against an excellent Chinese Taipei pitcher and would have jacked him if not for the ump.
Sorry, I have to laugh because that is just soooooo bad! Your son is not alone. We've all seen it, especially at the lower age groups.
We’ve all seen some bad calls, but I only recall one that had an immediate impact on the outcome of the game. It was on the 12U band of mercenaries my kid played on. Behind by two, bases loaded with one out, the blue makes a truly awful infield fly call, the runner on 3rd scores when the ball drops in no-man’s land in left field but first and second went back to their bags when they heard the call (there’s baserunning lesson there). Next batter hits a long drive to center that would have advanced the runners, but instead was the 3rd out.
Obviously, the parents in the stands were making parent type comments, and I heard one of the boys pick up on the reason for the loss and comment that “the blue lost us the game”. The coach was quick to gather the boys within earshot of the parents and told them that if they lost a game by 1 run in the last inning of the game due to a bad call by the blue it was because they had not done their job. That they had plenty of chances to plate runs in the prior 5 innings and the other team out executed them (coaches and ballplayers).
A tournament cut short but walking out of the park I thought that the lesson was probably worth the short weekend.
I’d be curious to get the group baseball parents prospective on this: That 12U team was HS class 2014, with a few still currently in pro ball (so, stacked team with high expectations). If they lost in the tournament championship game, on the way out of the park and in front of opposing players and parents they would non ceremoniously drop their second-place trophies in the trash cans. It agitated me at a sportsmanship level (very Ricky Bobby), but the trophies were theirs to do with as they pleased. No coach said anything or tried to stop it, thoughts?
me no likey.
I'll report back in several months. keewartson played on a team in Arizona that was the "test" for Robo-umps in the fall league. Played in AAA last season, so I expect that may be where he starts this spring.
It was really interesting to watch/hear the fans (that did not know) yell at the umpires to "make the call, ump!" when the umpire was just waiting to hear the call. There IS a delay in the call, and fans did not like it.
Robot umpires
C’mon blue! What’s the call?
@smokeminside posted:me no likey.
With the chip shortage and supply chain issues, it might not be an issue for ya Smoke. Many 2022 robot umpire parts are floating in one of these many containers off of Cali coast getting ready for the AAA season. It could be any day now.....any day.....any day.
I like the robo ump.
There is only little caveat though, umpires tend to call a wider and shorter zone than the rulebook zone.
That means more calls inside and especially outside the zone but a tight zone below and above the zone. The 90s zone was notorious for this really wide outside but nothing above the belt gets called.
Statistically that helps hitters, contact rates wide are about 10 percentage points higher than below and above the zone.
The rulebook zone was always too unfriendly for hitters so the umps unconsciously created the zone they do call, occasionally there is a ring up on a pitch in the other batters box but generally it is pretty hitter friendly, especially since they call the inside corner tighter too so hitters can crowd the plate.
That means the robo zone if you don't change it makes contact a little harder and especially favors vertical movement pitchers with straight 4 seam fastballs and 12 to 6 hammers while it hurts horizontal movement pitchers like tailing fastballs, sinkers and sliders.
So either you change the robo ump zone to the "inaccurate" zone that current umps call to make it easier for hitters or you just let hitters adjust to it.
Both would be possible.
https://community.hsbaseballwe...63#73105980515115763
Fenway, I think your numbers are doubled. There are 4900 games if you count total games per team (30*162 + Playoffs)... but 1 game accounts for two teams. The total games played is 2460 regular season + playoffs.
The point is valid... and the 1% that Mr Hernandez does behind the plate is still accurate.
Any time the calls can be more accurate without slowing the game - I think it is a good thing. Pitchers will adjust, batters will adjust. Technology will be refined and accuracy increased. Implementing at AAA may be a smart thing for MLB, as the players on rehab and 40 man rosters will experience the pros and cons and can give feedback to the union.
I agree, the pipeline of MLB umps needs to be refreshed annually. Bottom 10% get demoted to AAA. others promoted. It can be as often as once a month or every season.
The other part of this is where is the line where you start using robo umps? Is it just professional baseball? You're not going to see it at the youth levels - especially on the small field, maybe except for the LLWS?
High School? Considering that my HS hasn't been able to afford new uniforms since 2009, I don't see this happening at our field.
College? You think D3s and D2s have money for this? Most D1s probably don't outside the P5.
So, it's going to be train umpires and catchers the same way as now until they become professionals and then tell them "Everything you have been taught, everything you have learned, everything that you have been crafting for the last 10-15 years, forget it because it doesn't matter anymore."
Seems stupid.
The problem in high school is that no one wants to be an umpire because of all the parent and coach abuse. The average age of umpires in Georgia is pretty high and not a lot of people are training to take their place.
Robo umps may be the only option in the future.
As an umpire - I don't see a lot of co,plaints about parents / coaches and the abuse. What I mainly hear are financial reasons to not get into baseball. In NJ - a HS ump gets about $75 / game. A games lasts for 2.5 - hrs. A Lacrosse ref gets paid more and the games lasts 1 hour. There is also the add'l cost of equipment. New gear every 3 years or so. Lets not forget - getting hit with 90+ mph fouls isn't much fun.
Agree the technology will filter to lower levels. As it is developed, and honed - it bcomes cheaper and then will be implemented. Change is inevitable. It may not be in our lifetime - but it will happen.
Not a fan. Diminishes the defensive role of the catcher. Wouldn't matter how the ball was received as the catcher no longer has to work at that portion of the game (with nobody on take a seat and get comfortable ). With a runner on, unless you're expecting one in the dirt, just get in the best position to throw whatever that may be . IMO would flip the catcher position to primarily a power bat with a low priority on defense.
@NewUmpire posted:As an umpire - I don't see a lot of co,plaints about parents / coaches and the abuse. What I mainly hear are financial reasons to not get into baseball. In NJ - a HS ump gets about $75 / game. A games lasts for 2.5 - hrs. A Lacrosse ref gets paid more and the games lasts 1 hour. There is also the add'l cost of equipment. New gear every 3 years or so. Lets not forget - getting hit with 90+ mph fouls isn't much fun.
Agree the technology will filter to lower levels. As it is developed, and honed - it bcomes cheaper and then will be implemented. Change is inevitable. It may not be in our lifetime - but it will happen.
Around the country you will find articles about the shortage of game officials due to poor adult behavior. I’ve been told by umpires coaches are less involved in controlling their players and the parents due to parents going to the school board to get them fired.
A legendary coach in Massachusetts lost his coaching job because he grabbed a player by the collar and pulled him back to the dugout. The player was right up in the umpire’s face screaming. When tossed the kid refused to stop.
The parents got the coach fired for physical abuse. They also tried to get the coach fired as a teacher. Someone on this board was at that game. They said no physical abuse occurred. The kid was out of control. Then there’s the stories of parents following umpires after games. These kinds of stories are everywhere. They’re making news in every state. Just because it hasn’t happened to you doesn’t mean it isn’t happening.
I would rather see money spent for additional scholarships and coaches in the college ranks than spending it on robot umpires.
While looking for a video I came across an umpire/player confrontation video that choked me laughing. I’m not sure what level. I’m guessing minors. The player was wrung up on a horrible call. He was tossed for arguing.
His coach came out to run interference to keep his player from getting in more trouble. The manager and the umpire were going at it face to face. The player went back to the dugout, grabbed a trash barrel and placed it behind home plate.
He then screamed at the umpire he was out of position. If he wants to be positioned in the right place stand in the trash barrel.
Still the greatest manager meltdown of all time
@Dominik85 posted:Still the greatest manager meltdown of all time
I’ll see you’re Wally Backman and raise you a Phil Wellman. Google it.
Yeah that's better
Does anyone miss the 10-minute breaks where managers berate umpires over bangers or calls on the lines? Or is the replay system that everyone is usually satisfied with the call being right better?
I will not miss the bitching about balls and strikes when after a short break in period everyone gets used to it. What they really need to do is also keep hitters in the box while they are at it. Umpires will be what they always want to be - incidental to the game rather than a factor in the game.
It'll be great and we'll wonder later how we ever lived without it...like an i-phone.
After talking with my 2022 about the robot umps coming to AAA ball in 2022, he sent me this link: https://youtu.be/HG12q63ICzU
The third pitch in the sequence is really tough to understand...
2021 Atlantic League Automated Ball/Strike System (ABS)
Lexington Legends vs. Lancaster Barnstormers
@johnlanza posted:After talking with my 2022 about the robot umps coming to AAA ball in 2022, he sent me this link: https://youtu.be/HG12q63ICzU
The third pitch in the sequence is really tough to understand...
2021 Atlantic League Automated Ball/Strike System (ABS)
Lexington Legends vs. Lancaster Barnstormers
That's where a very small piece of the ball just nicks the edge of the zone as it's crossing the front of the plate and heading outside the zone. Umpires can't call it but the computer can track it. No one wants that called a strike except the pitcher. It won't be the last we see of it with the robots.
All that might be so...but you know what will happen...batters and pitchers will adjust because it will be called the same every time out. As noted, before there will be a break in period as everyone adjusts but since there will be consistency ...and no one to argue with...they will adjust in 50 to 100 ab's at the most.
Hitters will be able to see where the strike zone is because it will be in the tape of every ab they take. I think the really good hitters will adjust in 2 weeks or less, so we are talking 25 plate appearances in spring training.
Once everyone understands where the outside corner at the knees and the inside corner are - it will be game on. It really should be an advantage for hitters because the inconsistency of the zone from inning to inning will be eliminated.
One other thing I won't miss is the special strike zone various pitchers and hitters operate with.
Will a robot umpire seeing the front of the strike zone slightly dinged for a strike lead to a lot of sinkers being thrown? Theoretically a pitch could ding the front of the strike zone and land in the dirt in front of the catcher.
@RJM posted:Will a robot umpire seeing the front of the strike zone slightly dinged for a strike lead to a lot of sinkers being thrown? Theoretically a pitch could ding the front of the strike zone and land in the dirt in front of the catcher.
I think it might prompt pitchers to really consider working off an extreme side of the rubber and try and create more angles rather than sit on the middle of the rubber and just try and gas guys out.
And, for sure, you're going to see guys with more cutters and Frisbee type pitches that move east and west. Everyone will be trying to hit borders of the zone with pitches that move out of it and which are unhittable.
Baseball will see even more strikeouts than before with the robots.
If you keep following the video - the next pitcher throws one that appears to be a strike, but is ball 4 - as they pan around you can see the 1B umpire in the background scratching the back of his hat like WTF.
The "nick" the strike zone has been my thought all along or the pitcher that perfects the eephus pitch. It'll be like going back to parabola ball that dominates U-10 youth baseball <shrug>.
As kids we used to play whiffle ball in the driveway with four squares on the garage door being the strike zone. One of the pitches we threw was a curve that would be high but drop down into the strike zone behind the batter. I could imagine MLB pitchers trying to nick the back end of the robot’s strike zone. It would be a difficult pitch to hit as it really wouldn’t be a strike.
Holy smokes ....break out the beer league slow pitch softball guys with the 15-foot lob dropping one inch behind the plate. I know MLB guys have helacious movement but the idea that they are going to be able to clip the front corner with pitches that will be falling away from hitters at such an angle that they won't get hit is a reach in my view.
The bigger problem has always been the ball that was NEVER over the plate getting called a strike. Greg Maddox got 500 outs a year for 15 years this way on the way to the Hall of Fame.
It's gonna be great. I know one of these days Skynet will kill us all, but it won't be Cowboy Joe Robot leading the way.
The only real disadvantage that can't be solved imo is that the catcher position gets severely devalued. Receiving doesn't matter anymore and you might see catchers just sitting on their butt with bases empty.
But other than that everything can be resolved by slightly adjusting the rulebook zone so that robo ump zone comes closer to the actual human zone that gets called now - just more consistent.
Dom
You're probably right but it will change the job. It might be more of a job like a RF. You'll be looking for OK athlete with big arm on defensive side but the bat will become the big part of the job. That means the C will become a 25 HR position. Power bats will suddenly have another position to play and not crush team defensively.
I don’t believe catching will change that much. There’s a lot more to catching then framing pitches. If a pitcher can’t block junk in the dirt he’s taking away a lot of many pitcher’s effectiveness.