PG, Nothing personal intented. My frustration with the personal rights argument stems from it being continually used by the union over the years to stone wall any progress in this area. If the players through their union had a position that allowed for testing while protecting rights, I'd be more sympathetic today to these concerns.
For me, they've lost that sympathetic ear and now the health of the next generation of MLB players trumps their rights. BTW, this same persoanl rights argument will be the cornerstone of new efforts to block blood testing for HGH which everyone knows is the new battleground. Stay tuned for Back to the Future 2.
Igball,
You make some very valid points. That is why IMO they could have done things differently regarding the future. It seemed more important to release the names than to solve the problem.
I believe they had the Union right where they wanted them and gave away a lot of leverage. Some might call it blackmail tactics, and the most righteous among us would have said… that is cheating in itself. Others might say lets fight fire with fire and end this stuff.
The players union is the players. Yes it is run by lawyers and administrators, but it’s all about what is best for the players. A players vote is all he has in the process. Now had they kept the names confidential and taken that 409 page report directly to the Players Union demanding immediate changes that required whatever science comes up with for testing to combat PED use in MLB… What would have happened?
IMO all those who were on the list and most others who have used PEDs would vote to change things and keep their names out of the public. Those who are playing it clean would understand that this is in their best interest because they are less likely to be competing against PED users would most likely vote in favor of big changes as well. In the end it will always be the players (Players Union) who have to agree to make the changes. It seems all this leverage, call it incentive, was lost when that list was released to the public.
However, if I’m wrong and the way things are ends up getting the job done… I’m 100% behind them. I do think this is going to help a lot, just think the other way would have accomplished even more for both now and the future.
You make some very valid points. That is why IMO they could have done things differently regarding the future. It seemed more important to release the names than to solve the problem.
I believe they had the Union right where they wanted them and gave away a lot of leverage. Some might call it blackmail tactics, and the most righteous among us would have said… that is cheating in itself. Others might say lets fight fire with fire and end this stuff.
The players union is the players. Yes it is run by lawyers and administrators, but it’s all about what is best for the players. A players vote is all he has in the process. Now had they kept the names confidential and taken that 409 page report directly to the Players Union demanding immediate changes that required whatever science comes up with for testing to combat PED use in MLB… What would have happened?
IMO all those who were on the list and most others who have used PEDs would vote to change things and keep their names out of the public. Those who are playing it clean would understand that this is in their best interest because they are less likely to be competing against PED users would most likely vote in favor of big changes as well. In the end it will always be the players (Players Union) who have to agree to make the changes. It seems all this leverage, call it incentive, was lost when that list was released to the public.
However, if I’m wrong and the way things are ends up getting the job done… I’m 100% behind them. I do think this is going to help a lot, just think the other way would have accomplished even more for both now and the future.
Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't MLB demand changes in testing that fell on deaf ears so they went to Mitchell? Everyone knew what he was doing, players were asked to come and they refused. This was no big secret to anyone. Maybe some felt they were bigger than the problem, because of who they were they thought they wouldn't be named or that they would get protection from the union. That didn't happen. MLB could have given Mitchell the opportunity to go to the players first, I think they were done fighting the issue, so they did fight fire with fire.
TPM,
I could very well be all wet... But if I were one of those players on that list and part of the players union... And my choices were to vote for drastic changes in testing and penalties or have my name released to the public... I would get my vote in very quickly and try to persuade my team mates to vote the same way.
I could very well be all wet... But if I were one of those players on that list and part of the players union... And my choices were to vote for drastic changes in testing and penalties or have my name released to the public... I would get my vote in very quickly and try to persuade my team mates to vote the same way.
Great point PG. I have always felt the players were at fault for not demanding that their Union be part of the solution and not part of the problem. If I were a player and I was clean I would be out in front saying we need strict testing and random testing. We need to remove all doubt about the steroid issue in the game. But maybe players dont do that for fear of being ostracized by the other players that dont feel the same way. Maybe that will start to change now. When the players start standing up and demanding that their union stand up for the clean players and quit protecting the cheaters. Maybe then we will see some changes. How many times have we seen players speak out on the need for strict testing and cleaning up the game? I believe there are many that feel this way. But I also believe they are afraid to do it. Why? There is pressure from within.
The players and owners have for so long been locked in an adversarial relationship that evokes nothing but clay footed responses from either side, that I don't see how any reasonable person would predict they would get together on any matter.
We expect the players to understand that they need to act for the good of the game and see that without fans, they have nothing.
We expect the owners to be honest and forthright and treat the players and fans fairly, working for a stronger MLB.
We have expectations that are not rooted in the reality of the situation.
We expect the players to understand that they need to act for the good of the game and see that without fans, they have nothing.
We expect the owners to be honest and forthright and treat the players and fans fairly, working for a stronger MLB.
We have expectations that are not rooted in the reality of the situation.
IMO - Agree 100%
And let us not forget Donald Fehr.
For two decades - he has held the fans - and the teams - hostage. He has presided over and directed what may go down as the worst period in the history of the game.
All the while doing it with a smirk - and a heavy dose of smugness.
PG was right - I will enjoy watching Donald Fehr's smirk getting wiped off his face in the coming months.
And let us not forget Donald Fehr.
For two decades - he has held the fans - and the teams - hostage. He has presided over and directed what may go down as the worst period in the history of the game.
All the while doing it with a smirk - and a heavy dose of smugness.
PG was right - I will enjoy watching Donald Fehr's smirk getting wiped off his face in the coming months.
It's dead of winter,..and it seems that everyone is talking baseball.
Unfortunately there is so much controversy attached to the subject lines.
Baseball fans...they are mighty,....and they are passionate.
I admire the dedication, the loyalty, and enjoy the opinions from all sides coming in from all walks of life.
Although at times it can be dis-heartening, I enjoy reading and listening as these issues are discussed.
Perhaps I will learn a thing or two about people, about the sport, about politics, human nature, taking shortcuts, the ramifications, legal issues, and more.
I hope so.
But as I read and listen I can not help to wonder what does our youth think of all this and how does this affect them?
What about the little ones?,....the ones just starting out in Little League who have their baseball cards in a shoebox shoved under their bed, who even after mom and dad
have said " lights out ", can't resist taking out the flashlight and taking one more look at em', memorizing faces, stats, and signatures....
or the player working his fanny off to make his highschool team, who keeps getting told over and over again,....work harder and get better grades!
What about the highschool senior who is fighting his way through a grueling recruiting process, trying to get a fraction of a piece of one of those 11 scholarships as opposed to the 88 being offered to play football?
How does all of this affect them? What are they thinking as they watch their heros fight to get their reputations back? Will they still remain their heros after the dust settles?
Will the dust ever settle?
I wonder.
It seems to me that baseball fans are fighting hard to keep integrity a key factor in its make-up.
For that, they have my admiration.
Its a good day to sit, and to think, and to do.
But, I can't wait til' we can get back to playing.
Unfortunately there is so much controversy attached to the subject lines.
Baseball fans...they are mighty,....and they are passionate.
I admire the dedication, the loyalty, and enjoy the opinions from all sides coming in from all walks of life.
Although at times it can be dis-heartening, I enjoy reading and listening as these issues are discussed.
Perhaps I will learn a thing or two about people, about the sport, about politics, human nature, taking shortcuts, the ramifications, legal issues, and more.
I hope so.
But as I read and listen I can not help to wonder what does our youth think of all this and how does this affect them?
What about the little ones?,....the ones just starting out in Little League who have their baseball cards in a shoebox shoved under their bed, who even after mom and dad
have said " lights out ", can't resist taking out the flashlight and taking one more look at em', memorizing faces, stats, and signatures....
or the player working his fanny off to make his highschool team, who keeps getting told over and over again,....work harder and get better grades!
What about the highschool senior who is fighting his way through a grueling recruiting process, trying to get a fraction of a piece of one of those 11 scholarships as opposed to the 88 being offered to play football?
How does all of this affect them? What are they thinking as they watch their heros fight to get their reputations back? Will they still remain their heros after the dust settles?
Will the dust ever settle?
I wonder.
It seems to me that baseball fans are fighting hard to keep integrity a key factor in its make-up.
For that, they have my admiration.
Its a good day to sit, and to think, and to do.
But, I can't wait til' we can get back to playing.
The owners created Fehr.
Their reluctance to treat players with any modicum (I learned that word just recently) of respect by hanging on to the reserve clause, made Fehr who he is.
The owners created the adversarial system. It's amazing to me that they can't see that. They all come from the business world where the modern model is generally one of respect and value for employees. Then they come to the MLB and completely change their MO and treat everyone as indentured slaves.
I don't blame the players for fighting back. What we are witnessing is the same pendulum swinging back, starting with the owners, then to the players. Now it is beginning its return course, and hopefully, as things in the past have evolved in business, the swings to either side diminish some more each time, evening out the relationship and strengthening the overall product.
At some point the relationship needs to change. Greed has been the central focal point in the past, with both sides. At some point, understanding the need for mutual benefit has to enter the fray.
As my son would potentially enter the game in 2011, my dire hope is that it is sooner, rather than later.
Their reluctance to treat players with any modicum (I learned that word just recently
) of respect by hanging on to the reserve clause, made Fehr who he is.The owners created the adversarial system. It's amazing to me that they can't see that. They all come from the business world where the modern model is generally one of respect and value for employees. Then they come to the MLB and completely change their MO and treat everyone as indentured slaves.
I don't blame the players for fighting back. What we are witnessing is the same pendulum swinging back, starting with the owners, then to the players. Now it is beginning its return course, and hopefully, as things in the past have evolved in business, the swings to either side diminish some more each time, evening out the relationship and strengthening the overall product.
At some point the relationship needs to change. Greed has been the central focal point in the past, with both sides. At some point, understanding the need for mutual benefit has to enter the fray.
As my son would potentially enter the game in 2011, my dire hope is that it is sooner, rather than later.
Leadership takes a commissioner who will take a piece out of each side without preference for one side or the other. I remember Ueberoth being that way in dealing with a potential strike. Selig is one of them (owner) to the players. The players don't trust him.quote:The players and owners have for so long been locked in an adversarial relationship that evokes nothing but clay footed responses from either side, that I don't see how any reasonable person would predict they would get together on any matter.
quote:Originally posted by CPLZ:
Then they come to the MLB and completely change their MO and treat everyone as indentured slaves.
They may go down as the most highly paid "indentured slaves" in the history of mankind. LOL
Ask the owners and their accountants if this is the worst period in the history of the game. Herein lies another problem, perspective. While some fans see it as a difficult time, the owners got fat and happy.quote:For two decades - he has held the fans - and the teams - hostage. He has presided over and directed what may go down as the worst period in the history of the game.
I don't think the typical fan sees enhancements as a big issue. I don't expect attendance to be down next season. If they are genuinely bothered with the false nature of the game they wouldn't pay exorbitant prices to attend.
RJM,
I dont believe you get it at all.
You want to talk balance sheets - or baseball?
We are talking about the game - and the damage done to the game.
You are talking about money.
It has nothing to do with what casual fans are willing to pay.
It has to do with the game itself.
I dont believe you get it at all.
You want to talk balance sheets - or baseball?
We are talking about the game - and the damage done to the game.
You are talking about money.
It has nothing to do with what casual fans are willing to pay.
It has to do with the game itself.
Actually, business has everything to do with it. Because of the vast amount of money being made, Fehr understood that the owners would never agree to a potential work stoppage fighting PED's so he was able to block every attempt at testing. To be effective a negotiator must be seen as someone who will go to whatever lengths to achieve their goals.
These factors underline why Reagan (who the Russians feared) was effective negotiating with the Soviets while Carter (much like Selig) wrung his hands while the Soviets invaded Afghanistan after promising Carter they wouldn't. If the other side doesn't fear the consequences they'll always have the upper hand. "Trust but verify" should be the motto with the players union going forward. We should learn to trust Fehr as much as Regan trusted the old men in the Kremlin.
These factors underline why Reagan (who the Russians feared) was effective negotiating with the Soviets while Carter (much like Selig) wrung his hands while the Soviets invaded Afghanistan after promising Carter they wouldn't. If the other side doesn't fear the consequences they'll always have the upper hand. "Trust but verify" should be the motto with the players union going forward. We should learn to trust Fehr as much as Regan trusted the old men in the Kremlin.
quote:Originally posted by igball:
Fehr understood that the owners would never agree to a potential work stoppage fighting PED's so he was able to block every attempt at testing.
Donald wont be smirking much anymore.
IMO - Noone who truly loves this game can say - with a straight face - that this hasnt been the worst period for Major League Baseball - ever. Regardless of how much money was made by anyone. That is my point.
quote:IMO - Noone who truly loves this game can say - with a straight face - that this hasnt been the worst period for Major League Baseball - ever. Regardless of how much money was made by anyone. That is my point.
Well said its!