Roster/recruiting question

UCLA has a pitching staff signed for 2012 that they are expecting several to sign to MLB, so in that kind of case it seems logical to over recruit.

It would appear that their final 35 Roster (2013) could be an interesting endeavor for next fall!

I don't know first hand, but I'm can speculate that the top tier programs, as is ASU, must over recruit. Then they make some harsh decisions after they determine; how many of their signees with be accepted by the University, how many players will they lose to the MLB draft, who on the current roster will be deemed expendible, and how many will be bitten by the injury bug?

In the business of College baseball, they are playing the numbers and are certainly toying with the baseball futures of many student-athletes. But, they are being paid to win baby!

This topic has come up many times. I always thought the NLI guaranteed a roster spot. However, based on prior posts by more knowledgeable people, I no longer believe that is the case. I do believe there is a rule that schools cannot "announce" a non-scholarship player as part of a signing class, but that rule is violated all the time.

quote:

Originally posted by hitithard:
..... Are kids who sign LOI's guaranteed roster spots? Aren't schools limited to announcing, as their incoming signing classes, only those kids receiving money? If my math is close to right, they would have around 55 players in next fall.

The NLI guarantees you your money, but only for one year. It does not guarantee a roster spot.

ASU is one of those schools where over-recruiting has long been the norm. They do lose a number of incoming freshmen and outgoing juniors to the pro draft, but they also cut people loose pretty much every year as well.

When Midlo Son first got to Wake Forest, there were 2 ASU transfers on the team's roster. But that was back in the days when you could transfer without having to sit out a year. Today, things are much, much tougher on those who get released.

quote:

Originally posted by hitithard:
Can anyone shed some light on what seems to be an interesting situation. In looking at Arizona State's site, they note that they signed 22 players in this year's early signing process. Their 2012 roster, as currently posted, has 36 players of whom only a few are listed as seniors. I am somewhat familiar with the recruiting world, roster sizes, money limits etc but am a little baffled by this. Is this just a blatant over recruiting situation? Are kids who sign LOI's guaranteed roster spots? Aren't schools limited to announcing, as their incoming signing classes, only those kids receiving money? If my math is close to right, they would have around 55 players in next fall.

Without knowing the situation, what it probably means is an awful lot of the players who are on the current roster will NOT be next year. As well, their athletic scholarships will not be renewed next year.

Both roster spots and athletic scholarships are one year, renewable at the schools option. The killer here is if one of those kids that is "released," then wants to transfer to another D1 school, they still must sit out a year in order to play.

I have not looked at their roster this year, but anyone going to ASU should know what they are getting into. They are usually draftable HS players that want to play at the highest levels. Many Jr's go in the draft so there tends to be a lot of turnover. They have a history of putting kids in the local JC's if they don't make it. I believe their roster is older this year, which may be one reason for the high numbers.

quote:

It does not guarantee a roster spot.

Just so we're clear, any counter must be listed on the 35 man roster per 17.2.8.3.

A NLI, if not terminated by "mutual" agreement, withdrawal, academic ineligibility, etc implies that the player is a counter and does guarantee that the player will be listed on the 35 man roster.

It does not imply that the player will actually play, or even be permitted to do anything useful at practice.

I'll defer to you on that. I was under the impression you could be cut from the team, although the school would have to make good on the financial commitment.

You are correct. You and 3FG are really saying the same thing. I think we're getting hung up on semantics. The NCAA uses the term "squad list" rather than roster. A "counter" must be listed on the squad list, even if he is cut, quits, flunks out, etc. He counts against the 27 scholarships and the 35 man roster. He can be "cut", but he is still owed his scholarship money, and still goes on the squad list. He just won't show up on any public "rosters."

quote:

Originally posted by Midlo Dad:
I'll defer to you on that. I was under the impression you could be cut from the team, although the school would have to make good on the financial commitment.

Things are a lot different at ASU post Murph but one thing has not changed, it's an ultra competitive enviornment. As Prime9 and BOF noted they have a bunch of committs that never enroll and they also have to be prepared to lose multiple Jrs each year.

Still, the player evaluations after the fall can be a brutal time. Lots of very good players are offered spots on local JCs, have their scholarship reduced or cut all together. The most recent changes in baseball scholarship allocation seemed aimed at reducing the concentration of talent at any one school like ASU. However the restrictions on transfers has made it tougher on a kid that may not have made an informed decsion.

MTH,
No, there are several way in which a scholarship athlete can have his aid cancelled, including academic ineligibility, misconduct, fraud, and voluntary withdrawal (see 15.3.4.2).

This still seems like it is all in the school's favor and why I am so against the one year sitout for D1 transfers. So many good players think they will make the roster and then when they don't they are left in the lurch. Sometimes making an informed decision isn't even enough as a so-so fall, slight injury or just being caught in the numbers game can really spell trouble for some guys.

I realize that. I apologize if it sounded like I was implying otherwise. I really think we're getting caught up in semantics, and I realize that I have just made matters worse.

Midlo had made the comment that he thought a player could be "cut" but that the the school would still have the financial obligation. I agreed. Rightly or wrongly, I took his comment to be referring to a roster reduction style "cut", not a "kicked off" or "termination for cause" type situation. Either way, as I understand it, the kid still "counts" towards the 27 and 35.

The question in my mind is whether a "counter" can been "cut" for reasons other than those you mentioned. (By cut I mean run off. I know he cannot be removed from the the squad list). Let's suppose that a coach decides, for whatever reason, that he wants to run a scholarship kid off. Maybe he just doesn't like the kid. Maybe he found out the kid just isn't that good. Maybe he's a pain. Does the coach have to continue to let the kid practice/participate with the team? Unless he has cause, he would have to continue the scholarship, but I'm not so sure he has to continue to let the kid be a part of the team.

However, your comment earlier "It does not imply that the player will actually play, or even be permitted to do anything useful at practice" seems to suggest that you think the kid cannot be runoff. And you may well be correct. You've probably forgotten more than I ever knew on the subject

And to be clear, I know he cannot be removed from the "squad list." I know he remains a counter no matter what.

MY APOLOGIES for screwing this discussion up royally. :-)

quote:

Originally posted by 3FingeredGlove:
MTH,
No, there are several way in which a scholarship athlete can have his aid cancelled, including academic ineligibility, misconduct, fraud, and voluntary withdrawal (see 15.3.4.2).

MTH,
Well, this discussion is pretty tangential to the point of this thread, and as you say, I think we're all really saying about the same thing. FWIW, I do think that coaches can run players off, although it is much less likely to happen since the 25% rule came into play.

We thought the Pat Murphy "sign everyone" policy left when HE was run off. Apparently not...

So glad my son looked at the numbers and decided to head to Tucson...

I have been hesitant to post this in past threads where it might have been applicable because it is second hand information. However I believed the kid when he told the following story, and the coach listening to it along with me said he was aware that ASU did this on a regular basis.

The pitcher was a freshman when he was promised a roster spot on ASU's team during the recruiting process. He said that when he showed up for fall ball there were 62 players, all of whom competed for a spot. Early on it was discussed among the players that they all had been told the same story, and it was obvious not everyone was going to make the team. As it turns out this kid was one of the ones who "washed out", and lost an entire year because of it. Needless to say he was bitter, especially since he wound up hurting his arm playing for several travel teams hoping to get noticed for the next year. So he blames ASU for having ruined two years for him because of their deception.

I watched the kid do a pen and he had some talent and velo, so it was not hard to imagine that he was a decent pitcher a couple of years back. This was last year and all he was hoping to do was go to a decent program and hopefully get two good years of college baseball.

So when I read about people asking for info on the bad or untrustworthy programs, I am always tempted to bring this story up. However now that this thread was specifically mentioning ASU, I figured I would pass on the story, all be it from outside my personal knowledge.

So now that you know...Why would you go!

The thing I always wonder about with these huge classes at top schools is the size of offer as well. If these players are among the best in the country, I can't imagine that they are taking 25% or 33% offers. Maybe they recruit real smart people that meet the criteria to get acadamic monies stacked on top of athletic?

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
So now that you know...Why would you go!

There are enough players who intentionally seek out the most intensely competitive situations because they are driven by the desire to prove themselves and they are convinced they will succeed.

They drive their parents crazy, but they are just wired to be serenely confident in the face of long odds.

Eventually they get sensible, cautious, and boring--like their parents. I'm not sure that's progress.

We have a long time member of this site who has a son attending and playing for ASU.
Hopefully, he will provide some input from a parent and first hand perspective.
As an outsider who watches ASU every other year when they come to Stanford, one noticeable aspect is the position players are not physically intimidating, large or physical guys. If anything, they are the opposite, for the most part. Players are often 5'10" to 6'1", they play the game at a very, very high level and they are just good.
While I don't have positive impressions of Coach Murphy, as I have said before, the team that played at Stanford under Coach Esmay seemed to be respectful and played the game the right way, in every way.
While I cannot be specific, I have some recall that the State of Arizona might have in-state scholarship opportunity's for its residents similar to Georgia, Florida and the like, so many of the in-state NLI's might not be getting athletic money.
One thing which has been known for many, many years is that the Fall results in Tempe have many players looking outside of ASU for their next baseball opportunity.
This is not new. Very, very good players continue to commit. Some make it at a very high level.
Many do not.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark B:
The thing I always wonder about with these huge classes at top schools is the size of offer as well. If these players are among the best in the country, I can't imagine that they are taking 25% or 33% offers. Maybe they recruit real smart people that meet the criteria to get acadamic monies stacked on top of athletic?

Although, to me, discussing scholarship amounts is 'verboten'...there are many parents around college teams that do in fact talk about their kids 'salary' so to speak.

You would be very surprised at many of the very top players who did, in fact, accept small or next-to-nothing scholarships to attend the very best baseball schools.

quote:

While I cannot be specific, I have some recall that the State of Arizona might have in-state scholarship opportunity's for its residents similar to Georgia, Florida and the like, so many of the in-state NLI's might not be getting athletic money.

They have to be getting the minimun of 25% to be able to sign a NLI. Walkons can't sign NLI.

Mark B,
I understand the 25% minimum.
The fact is this class is 22 players. Not unusual at ASU, nor Georgia or some other public universities which have in-state scholarships for residents.
Their 2012 roster shows 19 freshman and sophomores.
If all 22 of this class are getting the minimum 25% and it is all baseball money, that would mean upwards of 11-12 or the current roster Fr. and Sophs either won't have a baseball scholarship next year or won't be on the roster.
This isn't anything new what we are reading.

Honest question, does anyone who can afford to pay for school and as schools go, AZ state is not particularly expensive, just go, I can afford this and it's okay to take less so the team has the money to attract better players and be successful?

quote:

Originally posted by calisportsfan:
Honest question, does anyone who can afford to pay for school and as schools go, AZ state is not particularly expensive, just go, I can afford this and it's okay to take less so the team has the money to attract better players and be successful?

Yes, that happens. In fact, I have known of coaches to ask certain families if they could absorb more of the cost in order to spend the money on more needy players.

Many of the Arizona kids on the roster at ASU don't need baseball money. Many of the best players on the roster give up their % of baseball money and instead rely on academic or financial aid.

I don't know how it is with the new staff, but under Coach Murphy, kids, even kids getting baseball money, knew they had to compete every day for a spot on the roster and on the field. Kids that want to be part of the college program that has produced the most big leaguers should be applauded for accepting the challenge.

ASU is my sons dream school. I am not sure I could convince him to go elswhere if Esmay said to him he had a chance to play. He would gladly be one of the 60+ trying to play.

quote:

Originally posted by 3rdgenerationnation:
Many of the Arizona kids on the roster at ASU don't need baseball money. Many of the best players on the roster give up their % of baseball money and instead rely on academic or financial aid.

I don't know how it is with the new staff, but under Coach Murphy, kids, even kids getting baseball money, knew they had to compete every day for a spot on the roster and on the field. Kids that want to be part of the college program that has produced the most big leaguers should be applauded for accepting the challenge.

No offense but that is easy to say but not necessarily the best thing in practice. As a parent trying to find the right fit for their kid academically, baseball wise, and financially, it is too big a decision to be left up to a coaching staff looking to have it all one way. Why commit to a program that could just spit your son out because they bring in 60 other kids and he loses a year of playing and development?
Granted I understand any program requires performance to get innings, but the way ASU seems to set things up means they want to eat the cake and have it too.
Most programs we dealt with at least guaranteed a roster spot for one year, many four years, understanding innings would need to be earned. Some offers had money both ways, one way, and some were only "preferred walk ons". Still they were making a commitment for at least the one year. We would not have sent our son to a program without one, and I find it hard to believe most parents with options would consider otherwise. The exception I guess would be an academic dream school, but we are obviously not talking about a school like that.

I certainly don’t agree with 3rdgeneration and Doughnutman, but hey that’s what makes the world go round.

Rule number 1 for picking a school: “Go to where you would be happy to be at regardless of baseball.”

ASU, at least in my son’s case, did not even make a preliminary list, not even close.

If it is on your son’s then go for it!. because frankly it is highly unlikely that he will be on the field beyond freshmen tryouts. Not that either are not capable, just the historical odds.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
ASU is my sons dream school. I am not sure I could convince him to go elswhere if Esmay said to him he had a chance to play. He would gladly be one of the 60+ trying to play.

Good for him. He knows what the odds are,he knows whats at stake, your willing to underwrite it, go for it.

quote:

Originally posted by dswann:
He knows what the odds are,he knows whats at stake.

I will add one more thing. Until your son is at a college on the field looking at the competition eyball to eyball, most HS players can't really comprehend the talent level.

This is where the experience and guidance of a parent comes in - give them a reality check.

BOF I agree

Not trying to brag, but Dman jr has played with and against a few the 2011's and a few of this years recruiting class. We have had an ASU signee on the HS roster for the last three years as well as other D1, D2, D3, Juco kids. I think every starter on the HS team except for maybe 3 or 4 guys over the last 4 years are playing ball either in college or the pro's. It gives you a pretty good idea on where you might fit.

quote:

I think every starter on the HS team except for maybe 3 or 4 guys over the last 4 years are playing ball either in college or the pro's. It gives you a pretty good idea on where you might fit.

I'm not doubting what you say but am floored by those numbers. Must be a National High School juggernaut with with 32 of the 36 starting nine that past four years, playing at the next level! That is better than good!

I'm with BOF on this; all our kids played with and against the best talent competing in HS or summer leagues many of whom were recruited or drafted (just not at the numbers you experienced in that school).

However, when they walk out onto that College field that first time against not just peers, but those with one, two, three, or four years plus more of everything, size, strength and experience. It will indeed, be a reality check for most.

Remember there is the same amount of physical change (sometimes a lot more) between a HS Freshmen vs. HS Sr. as a College Fresh to a College Sr. It is easy to say that you played with a so and so who went to ASU, (or fill in the major college blank) but when you walk on the field see 35 to 40 of them eye to eye (60 in ASU’s case), with many 3 years older-wiser-better and they are all fighting for one of 9 positions who are going to be on the field it is a whole new sense of reality. It is actually even more competitive than this if your son plays a single position, say catcher,SS, etc, and there is a 4th round pick behind the dish from last year. What are the odds your son is going to displace him? Your son won’t know what it is like until he is there. All I am saying is REALLY help him understand what he is getting into. Most kids don’t get it frankly, and same with many parents who have not seen it up close and personal.

quote:

Originally posted by BOF:
Remember there is the same amount of physical change (sometimes a lot more) between a HS Freshmen vs. HS Sr. as a College Fresh to a College Sr.

All I am saying is REALLY help him understand what he is getting into. Most kids don’t get it frankly, and same with many parents who have not seen it up close and personal.

Their not suppose to get it. You speak of physical development. Mentally their brain has yet to evolve enough to process consequences until, around 25 years of age.

Dman,

I saw your other post on your son's HS team, which is pretty impressive BTW. I did not want to hijack that thread so I copied it over here. I am not sure if you have the ability to find out, but one interesting question would be of these kids who is actually starting today?

The ones that would be of most interest would be the Perpperdine, ASU, and UofCal school (depending on the program also) In reality the only two elite schools are ASU and UofA. (depends somewhat on which Cal school)

I know the catcher at UofA is probably not there (or starting) as my son’s good friend has more or less earned the starting spot this fall. (I know the starting catcher from last year left)

catcher, U of AZ
First, DIII in Cal (super student)
Second, U of New Mexico
SS, Yavapai JC not sure of now.
third, pepperdine
RF, ASU
CF, U of Cal, not sure which one
LF, AA pitcher

BOF,
CF is now a freshman at UCI.

Some are just freshman now so we will see. 4 of the starters were sophomores. The U of A catcher left the program last year. The older ones I have no idea if they ever played a game except the SS started at Yavapai his Sophomore year.