rotational clarification

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
My swing isnt rotational my swing does the A to C thing, some things with A to C and rotational are the same like...1. Notice the back toe off the ground.
2. Notice the back elbow bent 90 degrees and still at your side (aka connected).

If your hands actually did the A to C thing, then you wouldn't be as connected as you are at the point of contact. Instead, your hands are closer to, and seem to be rotating with, your shoulder.

I don't think your concept of what you are doing matches up with what you are actually doing.

quote:

Originally posted by Shantzee:
For about 5 month on a travel team i was tought rotational and i did farely well. Then i went to my new HS coach's hitting facility, he watched me and said if I keep hitting rotational I was gonna get cut. So he changed it to the A to C and I noticed a difference... for the better. It has since envoked questions about rotational.

1. How do rotational hitters hit curveballs, swinging on the plane of the curveball before it breaks will make me miss it...

2. Catching up with a fastball you werent expecting is terribly hard because theres more things to do.

3. Fly balls are outs... When you swing "on the plane" your swinging slightly up and those envoke pop-ups/fly balls. That wasnt a question i was just stating a fact.

So if anyone could please discuss about my questions i would appreciate it.

Okay, Shantzee,

Here are the answers to your questions.

#1. They hit them the same way Linear hitters do. They see them with their eyes and adjust their body and hands and take the sweetspot to the ball.

#2. When you practice a certain technique enough, you do it without thinking. The hands start at one point and go to contact no matter what style you are using.

#3. Ted Williams was the first to relate swinging on the plane of the pitch and he was a lifetime .344 hitter and the last to hit .400 for a season and he did it twice. Mathematically, it makes perfect sense and he and Bonds got pretty good results with it.

Both ways of hitting work and you just have to find a way of hitting you enjoy doing and can make successful. Good luck to you and I'll leave you with a quote from Ted Williams and it's the best advice you'll ever get! "Get a good pitch to hit!"

Mr. Williams also says "Hit according to your style" which may be the best tip yet, imho! Also, another established hitter and friend of his, Tony Gywnn, says in page 66 of his book "The Art of Hitting" to "take the knob to the ball," an idea generalized with Linear hitters. Mr. Gwynn was successful too I'd say.

* I was told as a collegiate player by a former Major League player that "what works for him may not work for me, take advise and apply it to what you know, if it fits what you do keep doing it, if not keep working, but to hit, you have to hit every chance you get. What feels good today may feel uncomfortable tomorrow, but that doesn't make it wrong. Don't let the thought of how to do it stop you from having done it." I kept that thought with me through college, had my success, and have passed it on to many successful players. Take the knowledge that has been offered and try, but above all else, HIT!! Think about this stuff on the tee, but when you're hitting, See the ball hit the ball!!

That barrel arcing rearward before the hands move forward IS NOT KNOB TO THE BALL.

Gwynn, like all of em, torques the handle at "go".

His hands lower, then raise, then at "go" he turns the barrel in his hands............no matter what he says he did.

"Knob to the ball" is quite simply bat drag. The high level swing does not include it.

It is alive and well, however, and actually TAUGHT by those who ignore video of the best.

Isn't the arc of the bat at the begining of his swing "just" his "trigger"? From what I can tell (since I can't slow it down), once the trigger is activated his hands move forward, before any core rotation occurs. But there sure is excellent core rotation after his trigger, and after his hands start to the ball. It is not as though you have to bring your hands to the ball for a certain number of frames. It is more of a fast sequence of events. Trigger, Hands, Rotate. Trigger makes everything able to happen quicker, avoiding inertia, so the bat is already in motion before the hitter has determined if it is a pitch to hit or a pitch to take. Hands bring the bat into the hitting zone the fastest, then rotate with the core for power.

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:
Isn't the arc of the bat at the begining of his swing "just" his "trigger"? From what I can tell (since I can't slow it down), once the trigger is activated his hands move forward, before any core rotation occurs. But there sure is excellent core rotation after his trigger, and after his hands start to the ball. It is not as though you have to bring your hands to the ball for a certain number of frames. It is more of a fast sequence of events. Trigger, Hands, Rotate. Trigger makes everything able to happen quicker, avoiding inertia, so the bat is already in motion before the hitter has determined if it is a pitch to hit or a pitch to take. Hands bring the bat into the hitting zone the fastest, then rotate with the core for power.

What astounds me is that Chameleon won't admit that what Tony Gwynn actually says he is doing, "which is try to hit the ball with the knob of the bat" is clearly what the video shows he is doing when his hands start to the ball. Floridafan, you hit it right on the nose, the cocking of the bat and lowering then raising of the hands are his trigger. When his elbow tucks into his side it makes it appear that his hands are rotating the bat, but he isn't conciously turning the handle, it just happens.

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
Mr. Williams also says "Hit according to your style" which may be the best tip yet, imho! Also, another established hitter and friend of his, Tony Gywnn, says in page 66 of his book "The Art of Hitting" to "take the knob to the ball," an idea generalized with Linear hitters. Mr. Gwynn was successful too I'd say.

* I was told as a collegiate player by a former Major League player that "what works for him may not work for me, take advise and apply it to what you know, if it fits what you do keep doing it, if not keep working, but to hit, you have to hit every chance you get. What feels good today may feel uncomfortable tomorrow, but that doesn't make it wrong. Don't let the thought of how to do it stop you from having done it." I kept that thought with me through college, had my success, and have passed it on to many successful players. Take the knowledge that has been offered and try, but above all else, HIT!! Think about this stuff on the tee, but when you're hitting, See the ball hit the ball!!

Amen! Turnin2! Couldn't have said it better!

Play Gwynn's clip frame by frame. The bat is at lag (meaning it has moved from upright/cocked to horizontal to the ground, knob pointed toward the pitcher, barrel pointed toward the catcher) before the knob moves forward. How did it get there? He torques the handle. He turns the barrel in his hands. And then and only then, after it reaches lag, it moves forward as a result of his rotation. Later it moves forward slightly due to arm movement.

Here's the only way you can learn what they are really doing.

Get out your video camera and video yourself, over and over and over until you get it right.

I guarantee you you won't duplicate Gwynn's swing without the "torquing of the handle" being the first thing you do at "go".

Once the arc is created you then get it in front of the ball. That may mean you use the arms. It may not.

But you can not duplicate Gwynn's bat path without first torquing the handle.

That is true with every good mlb hitter.

No mic. I didn't miss a thing. I have nothing to admit. You do. You ignored the first part of his swing. The running start of the barrel.

How about think.......then speak. Ever tried it?

Hmmmmmm....



I guess you overlooked this.

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Absolutely no pulling of the knob and he's a couple of frames into his swing.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
Hmmmmmm....



I guess you overlooked this.

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Absolutely no pulling of the knob and he's a couple of frames into his swing.

No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

You know, there are Scientists that still say it is impossible to make a baseball curve in 60'6" too! It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

You say, "What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?". Right there you admit that he IS pulling the knob!

By tucking his elbow, he is getting on the "plane of the pitch". His "flat bat" is at his waist which is the middle of the strike zone. His bottom hand then guides the bat to the height and general location of the pitch. His eyes stay on the ball and his natural hand eye coordination work together to use his top hand to throw the sweetspot through the ball. His natural ability will help get his body into position to hit the ball (meaning, he will lean/tilt or whatever).

IMO, it is a hitting instructors job to get a hitter in the best position to start his swing and to get them in the best position at contact to get through the ball. Once you teach a hitter the basics (which most do automatically) balance and concentration are the main things that falter and cause slumps.

I believe that getting the "flat bat" on the "plane of the pitch" as soon as possible and taking the "knob to the ball" (in that order) are the two most important parts of the swing itself. But, hey, that's just my "THEORY".

Chameleon,

Yes I see the torquing of the bat handle. I never said it wasn't there, I just quoted Tony Gwynn. He makes reference to a picture of Hank Aaron from CF on a swing and all you see is the knob going to the ball. Not sure who you are in real life, but in any frame at any angle of any hitter you could argue that the knob goes in a path to the ball, no matter how connected you stay..even on a pitch away with perfect connection, you could see the knob going that way IF THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!! and to say Gwynn doesn't do what he says...maybe your view, but his approach may be that way. Funny what you describe at "bat lag" is what people used to say made Griffey better, because his bat was in the zone longer.

**Do you have a clip of Gwynn going through the 5.5 hole?? Bet the knob goes to the ball!

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
Chameleon,

Yes I see the torquing of the bat handle. I never said it wasn't there, I just quoted Tony Gwynn. He makes reference to a picture of Hank Aaron from CF on a swing and all you see is the knob going to the ball. Not sure who you are in real life, but in any frame at any angle of any hitter you could argue that the knob goes in a path to the ball, no matter how connected you stay..even on a pitch away with perfect connection, you could see the knob going that way IF THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!! and to say Gwynn doesn't do what he says...maybe your view, but his approach may be that way. Funny what you describe at "bat lag" is what people used to say made Griffey better, because his bat was in the zone longer.

**Do you have a clip of Gwynn going through the 5.5 hole?? Bet the knob goes to the ball!

God, I love this guy!

quote:

What does the barrel do before any pulling of the knob of any kind occurs?

The barrel has gone from vertical/cocked to lag and the hands are still where?........at the arm pit.

Chameleon, I respect your input. You are valuable to these discussions.

Pulling of the knob does occur, with the degree depending on the location of the pitch. And where it is pulled also varies with the pitch.

I think that the term "knob to ball" is over used, when "pull the knob" offers a better description and allows for adjustment for pitch location. It also allows for the barrel to maintain barrel load until the hitter is ready to rotate it into the ball.

People like their own cues, which often mean the same as another's cues. Pull the knob (not neccessarily to the ball or the pitcher), pull the hands in, maintain the box, and other cues can be cues for the same thing. Yet, an argument ensues.

Especially on a pitch up and in, the knob has to rotate early as the elbows need to get in their position (the front elbow has to raise and the rear elbow has to drop). That is what is going on in the picture you have posted. A pitch in a different location will result in a different start.


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quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

I don't think knob to the ball is great advice because it can lead to disconnection. However, I could see how it could help to prevent bat drag if not done completely literally; if the hands turn the corner with the shoulders.

I do agree that the bat lays back because the elbow is starting to drop and the shoulders are starting to rotate.

If you go frame by frame through the clip, you will see the barrel of the bat start to lay back toward the catcher at the moment the back elbow starts to drop.

here again its Gwynn's words he used in his book...lets see,

.338 average
3141 Hits
543 2B
85 3B
135 HR
459 Slg %
434 SO
9288 AB

I think his advise would be worthy!

micmister

quote:

It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

Like Chameleon or not what he says isnt theory if its backed up by visual proof. If you dont want to look at whats actually happening then thats up to you.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
No, I didn't overlook anything. As I said, the barrel turns because his elbow tucks into his side. He is tucking his elbow and pulling the knob to the ball (you say pitcher because you can't bear to say to the ball) at the same instant. The thing for you to do is call Mr. Gwynn and ask him what he is doing. It's just like throwing a baseball, a pitcher doesn't conciously try to lay his arm down when he throws, it just happens. Because, during the act of hitting and pitching the bottom half is torquing away from the upper half, there is a moment of hesitation in the bat in hitting and the ball in throwing, that is what causes the whip or "rubberband" effect.

I don't think knob to the ball is great advice because it can lead to disconnection. However, I could see how it could help to prevent bat drag if not done completely literally; if the hands turn the corner with the shoulders.

I do agree that the bat lays back because the elbow is starting to drop and the shoulders are starting to rotate.

If you go frame by frame through the clip, you will see the barrel of the bat start to lay back toward the catcher at the moment the back elbow starts to drop.

The knob should only move from launch to in front of the bellybutton up until contact. IMO

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
micmister

quote:

It is much more logical to me to take what the hitter says he is doing and then figure out what happens when he actually does it. Where you take each part and try to fit it into your THEORY on hitting.

Like Chameleon or not what he says isnt theory if its backed up by visual proof. If you dont want to look at whats actually happening then thats up to you.

See posts by turnin2 and thepainguy above. I don't dislike Chameleon, I don't even know him. As a matter of fact, I really like that he provides the video clips and is passionate about what he does. I just don't agree with everything he says although I do with most of what he says (when he actually comes out and says it that is).

quote:

Originally posted by turnin2:
here again its Gwynn's words he used in his book...lets see,

.338 average
3141 Hits
543 2B
85 3B
135 HR
459 Slg %
434 SO
9288 AB

I think his advise would be worthy!

We need to go out and have a beer! I'll buy!

anytime!!