I certainly don't want to argue with anyone about hitting because quite frankly unless we were in the same room it can be difficult to describe technique and we could be looking at the same ideas, just from a different perspective. But I'm loving this and I love to learn, so keep it coming!
*** I pulled Gwynn in because as a kid, it was him, mattingly, and pucket, they were my heroes, just wanting to use an example and how he terms what he does.
quote:Originally posted by turnin2:
Chameleon,
Yes I see the torquing of the bat handle. I never said it wasn't there, I just quoted Tony Gwynn. He makes reference to a picture of Hank Aaron from CF on a swing and all you see is the knob going to the ball. Not sure who you are in real life, but in any frame at any angle of any hitter you could argue that the knob goes in a path to the ball, no matter how connected you stay..even on a pitch away with perfect connection, you could see the knob going that way IF THAT IS WHAT YOU BELIEVE!!! and to say Gwynn doesn't do what he says...maybe your view, but his approach may be that way. Funny what you describe at "bat lag" is what people used to say made Griffey better, because his bat was in the zone longer.
**Do you have a clip of Gwynn going through the 5.5 hole?? Bet the knob goes to the ball!
I will say one last thing about torqueing the handle at go. You can torque the handle using your hands and never tuck your elbow or take the knob to the ball first, but you can't tuck your elbow and take the knob to the ball without that torque happening naturally. Try it.
Which of these two hitters is torquing the handle at "go"?
Which is "pulling the knob".
They look similar don't they?
They are VASTLY different.
And not until you video yourself trying to duplicate their movements will you have a full understanding of the process.
This amateur was trying to duplicate Bonds swing. He failed miserably. He failed because his hitting theory insists that the hands "are along for the ride"...that they "just hold on to the **** bat". That they do not torque the handle at "go".
Watch the barrel paths of the two hitters. One arcs. The other doesn't.
And the difference is no small matter.
Hitters create the arc and then move the arc in front of the ball. This may or may not involve the arms...depending on pitch location.
But to say "the swing" involves pulling the knob couldn't be more wrong.
Gwynn is no dumby. He probably "feels" pulling the knob when he moves his arc in front of the ball. But video clearly shows his swing is powered by the hands creating the arc. Not by the arms pulling on the knob.
That is much different than powering the swing...getting the barrel to arc around...by pulling the knob toward the ball until you're extended and then the barrel comes around like a dog who out runs the end of his leash.
Completely different.
IF the move that powers your swing is also the adjustor you will never hit.
It has to be two different things. The hips and hands power the swing...the arms/posture adjust it.
Knob pulling is definitely an arm move. It is not the swing. It is the adjustor.
In the clip above, the amateur is powering his swing with his arms and with the lead shoulders pull on the lead arm. The power pack IS the arms as well as the body. He will never hit well.
The professional's power pack is his hips and his hands, leaving his arms for positioning of the swing.
This is critically important.
When you travel down the hitting path things will make more sense to you than when you first heard them. I heard Epstein say the "good swing is the adjustment you made to the pitch". And I thought yeah yeah yeah.....as I tried to learn a simple repeatable swing that I could use over and over.
The ticket is not a simple repeatable swing. That is not possible as you go up the hitting food chain. What high level hitting demands is early batspeed and high adjustability.
You can see Gwynn and Bonds create early batspeed by torquing the handle, getting the barrel to blur rearward, as they launch their swing. This is a running start of the barrel, yet they've made no commitment to swing. This is a HUGE concept. YOu must get this right to hit at high levels.
This defines "early batspeed" and "high adjustability". The barrel arcing rearward before commitment is "early batspeed". It is created with their hands. Their ability to move that arcing barrel in front of the ball is "high adjustability". It is done with the arms/posture.
Having the arms involved in adjustment AND involved in powering the swing forces a hitter to make early decisions......the ultimate love of the pitcher.
As for the torquing of the handle versus lowering of the rear elbow.....you've got it backwards.
IF you torque the handle the elbow will lower. Proper handle torque sends the barrel rearward and this direction will force the elbow to lower. In fact, the entire arm alignment, what I call the triangle (hands hold the bat and both forearms and chest form a triangle; there is no box) rotates around the hands. The forearms supinate/pronate, the lead elbow works upward, the rear elbow works toward where the lead elbow started, the shoulders laterally tilt.
If you are torquing by radial deviation (hammering type movement of the top hand) the elbow will not lower properly.
You can very easily lower the elbow and not torque the handle. See Joe Morgan as he would flap his rear elbow up and down without the barrel being moved. He was lowering his elbow without torquing the handle.
And, see the amateur above. He gets his elbow slotted but never torques the handle.
Which is "pulling the knob".
They look similar don't they?
They are VASTLY different.
And not until you video yourself trying to duplicate their movements will you have a full understanding of the process.
This amateur was trying to duplicate Bonds swing. He failed miserably. He failed because his hitting theory insists that the hands "are along for the ride"...that they "just hold on to the **** bat". That they do not torque the handle at "go".
Watch the barrel paths of the two hitters. One arcs. The other doesn't.
And the difference is no small matter.
Hitters create the arc and then move the arc in front of the ball. This may or may not involve the arms...depending on pitch location.
But to say "the swing" involves pulling the knob couldn't be more wrong.
Gwynn is no dumby. He probably "feels" pulling the knob when he moves his arc in front of the ball. But video clearly shows his swing is powered by the hands creating the arc. Not by the arms pulling on the knob.
That is much different than powering the swing...getting the barrel to arc around...by pulling the knob toward the ball until you're extended and then the barrel comes around like a dog who out runs the end of his leash.
Completely different.
IF the move that powers your swing is also the adjustor you will never hit.
It has to be two different things. The hips and hands power the swing...the arms/posture adjust it.
Knob pulling is definitely an arm move. It is not the swing. It is the adjustor.
In the clip above, the amateur is powering his swing with his arms and with the lead shoulders pull on the lead arm. The power pack IS the arms as well as the body. He will never hit well.
The professional's power pack is his hips and his hands, leaving his arms for positioning of the swing.
This is critically important.
When you travel down the hitting path things will make more sense to you than when you first heard them. I heard Epstein say the "good swing is the adjustment you made to the pitch". And I thought yeah yeah yeah.....as I tried to learn a simple repeatable swing that I could use over and over.
The ticket is not a simple repeatable swing. That is not possible as you go up the hitting food chain. What high level hitting demands is early batspeed and high adjustability.
You can see Gwynn and Bonds create early batspeed by torquing the handle, getting the barrel to blur rearward, as they launch their swing. This is a running start of the barrel, yet they've made no commitment to swing. This is a HUGE concept. YOu must get this right to hit at high levels.
This defines "early batspeed" and "high adjustability". The barrel arcing rearward before commitment is "early batspeed". It is created with their hands. Their ability to move that arcing barrel in front of the ball is "high adjustability". It is done with the arms/posture.
Having the arms involved in adjustment AND involved in powering the swing forces a hitter to make early decisions......the ultimate love of the pitcher.
As for the torquing of the handle versus lowering of the rear elbow.....you've got it backwards.
IF you torque the handle the elbow will lower. Proper handle torque sends the barrel rearward and this direction will force the elbow to lower. In fact, the entire arm alignment, what I call the triangle (hands hold the bat and both forearms and chest form a triangle; there is no box) rotates around the hands. The forearms supinate/pronate, the lead elbow works upward, the rear elbow works toward where the lead elbow started, the shoulders laterally tilt.
If you are torquing by radial deviation (hammering type movement of the top hand) the elbow will not lower properly.
You can very easily lower the elbow and not torque the handle. See Joe Morgan as he would flap his rear elbow up and down without the barrel being moved. He was lowering his elbow without torquing the handle.
And, see the amateur above. He gets his elbow slotted but never torques the handle.
Wow, I didn't know this topic would get so big... 
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Which of these two hitters is torquing the handle at "go"?
Which is "pulling the knob".
They look similar don't they?
They are VASTLY different.
And not until you video yourself trying to duplicate their movements will you have a full understanding of the process.
This amateur was trying to duplicate Bonds swing. He failed miserably. He failed because his hitting theory insists that the hands "are along for the ride"...that they "just hold on to the **** bat". That they do not torque the handle at "go".
Watch the barrel paths of the two hitters. One arcs. The other doesn't.
And the difference is no small matter.
Hitters create the arc and then move the arc in front of the ball. This may or may not involve the arms...depending on pitch location.
But to say "the swing" involves pulling the knob couldn't be more wrong.
Gwynn is no dumby. He probably "feels" pulling the knob when he moves his arc in front of the ball. But video clearly shows his swing is powered by the hands creating the arc. Not by the arms pulling on the knob.
That is much different than powering the swing...getting the barrel to arc around...by pulling the knob toward the ball until you're extended and then the barrel comes around like a dog who out runs the end of his leash.
Completely different.
IF the move that powers your swing is also the adjustor you will never hit.
It has to be two different things. The hips and hands power the swing...the arms/posture adjust it.
Knob pulling is definitely an arm move. It is not the swing. It is the adjustor.
In the clip above, the amateur is powering his swing with his arms and with the lead shoulders pull on the lead arm. The power pack IS the arms as well as the body. He will never hit well.
The professional's power pack is his hips and his hands, leaving his arms for positioning of the swing.
This is critically important.
When you travel down the hitting path things will make more sense to you than when you first heard them. I heard Epstein say the "good swing is the adjustment you made to the pitch". And I thought yeah yeah yeah.....as I tried to learn a simple repeatable swing that I could use over and over.
The ticket is not a simple repeatable swing. That is not possible as you go up the hitting food chain. What high level hitting demands is early batspeed and high adjustability.
You can see Gwynn and Bonds create early batspeed by torquing the handle, getting the barrel to blur rearward, as they launch their swing. This is a running start of the barrel, yet they've made no commitment to swing. This is a HUGE concept. YOu must get this right to hit at high levels.
This defines "early batspeed" and "high adjustability". The barrel arcing rearward before commitment is "early batspeed". It is created with their hands. Their ability to move that arcing barrel in front of the ball is "high adjustability". It is done with the arms/posture.
Having the arms involved in adjustment AND involved in powering the swing forces a hitter to make early decisions......the ultimate love of the pitcher.
As for the torquing of the handle versus lowering of the rear elbow.....you've got it backwards.
IF you torque the handle the elbow will lower. Proper handle torque sends the barrel rearward and this direction will force the elbow to lower. In fact, the entire arm alignment, what I call the triangle (hands hold the bat and both forearms and chest form a triangle; there is no box) rotates around the hands. The forearms supinate/pronate, the lead elbow works upward, the rear elbow works toward where the lead elbow started, the shoulders laterally tilt.
If you are torquing by radial deviation (hammering type movement of the top hand) the elbow will not lower properly.
You can very easily lower the elbow and not torque the handle. See Joe Morgan as he would flap his rear elbow up and down without the barrel being moved. He was lowering his elbow without torquing the handle.
And, see the amateur above. He gets his elbow slotted but never torques the handle.
I see a few things the amateur is doing wrong, IMO. You can see his head raise at go and he goes up on his toe way before impact and with no foreward movement, so what is making him go to his toe? He doesn't appear to be shifting weight from front to back at any point, just spinning in place.
Isnt' it amazing the information left out on some of these posts. This "amatuer" was attempting to copy someone else's swing. Let's see, the number of hitters in MLB that have been successful copying this exact swing is ZERO! In the presentation of that particular video, that "amatuer" presented that example as one attempt among many and readily admitted that it was virtually impossible to exactly copy any other person's swing due to many circumstances not limited to but including retraining one's own kenetic chain to duplicate another's. I believe that Chameleon or any other posters would hope that our children would someday be able to match that "amatuer's" career. I'm thinking that some of our posters/poster's son's won't do that. However, there is some really bizzare video available out in cyberspace showing posters demonstrate a variety of swings even to the point that they support a theory on one day and take a 180 degree turn and argue the opposite a few days later. For a fee, I'm reasonably sure you can go view Chameleon's swing on his website.
quote:Originally posted by CoachB25:
Isnt' it amazing the information left out on some of these posts. This "amatuer" was attempting to copy someone else's swing. Let's see, the number of hitters in MLB that have been successful copying this exact swing is ZERO! In the presentation of that particular video, that "amatuer" presented that example as one attempt among many and readily admitted that it was virtually impossible to exactly copy any other person's swing due to many circumstances not limited to but including retraining one's own kenetic chain to duplicate another's. I believe that Chameleon or any other posters would hope that our children would someday be able to match that "amatuer's" career. I'm thinking that some of our posters/poster's son's won't do that. However, there is some really bizzare video available out in cyberspace showing posters demonstrate a variety of swings even to the point that they support a theory on one day and take a 180 degree turn and argue the opposite a few days later. For a fee, I'm reasonably sure you can go view Chameleon's swing on his website.
Okay! Now I am interested. Who is the Amatuer? Bonds did a heck of a job copying Ted Williams swing. Like I've said on here before, it is ALL theory or there would be tons of .400 hitters. By the way, what is Chameleon's website?
CoachB
Maybe you didn't read the thread. The discussion turned to "knob to the ball" and the quality of that "cue".
That clip is an excellent example of how "knob to the ball" doesn't describe the mlb pattern.
Things "left out"? Are you also referring to the promise that the amateur would continue to work on duplicating Bonds swing and then report back what he had to do to be successful?
He has not continued his quest. You know why? I do.
Not sure why you insist on changing the subject.
How about staying on point. What do you think about the "knob to the ball" cue?
Maybe you didn't read the thread. The discussion turned to "knob to the ball" and the quality of that "cue".
That clip is an excellent example of how "knob to the ball" doesn't describe the mlb pattern.
Things "left out"? Are you also referring to the promise that the amateur would continue to work on duplicating Bonds swing and then report back what he had to do to be successful?
He has not continued his quest. You know why? I do.
Not sure why you insist on changing the subject.
How about staying on point. What do you think about the "knob to the ball" cue?
Barry vs the amateur swing
one of them HAS to drag the bat.
the other one does not.
one of them HAS to drag the bat.
the other one does not.
Things "left out"? Are you also referring to the promise that the amateur would continue to work on duplicating Bonds swing and then report back what he had to do to be successful?
Oh....so someone IS trying to teach Bonds' swing, huh? It doesn't matter if someone does find the perfect swing and then can relate that swing to someone else, they still have to have the skill to adjust that swing to the changing pitch.
Oh....so someone IS trying to teach Bonds' swing, huh? It doesn't matter if someone does find the perfect swing and then can relate that swing to someone else, they still have to have the skill to adjust that swing to the changing pitch.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
Barry vs the amateur swing
one of them HAS to drag the bat.
the other one does not.
Shaft to shoulder position???
micmeister-
The handle needs to be torqued before the body's rotation is transferred or the bat will drag which limits both how far back the arc can be started AND how quickly the bat can accelerates. Both of these are necessary to get as long a read on the pitch as possible. "early batspeed" enables "late adjustability".
Late adjustability optimizes the contact zone/timing.
The handle needs to be torqued before the body's rotation is transferred or the bat will drag which limits both how far back the arc can be started AND how quickly the bat can accelerates. Both of these are necessary to get as long a read on the pitch as possible. "early batspeed" enables "late adjustability".
Late adjustability optimizes the contact zone/timing.
quote:Originally posted by tom.guerry:
micmeister-
The handle needs to be torqued before the body's rotation is transferred or the bat will drag which limits both how far back the arc can be started AND how quickly the bat can accelerates. Both of these are necessary to get as long a read on the pitch as possible. "early batspeed" enables "late adjustability".
Late adjustability optimizes the contact zone/timing.
Okay, what is meant by torqueing the handle? Looking at the lable...do you mean it spins clockwise or counterclockwise or do you mean the cocking forward of the barrel?
I'm no scientist so this is a layperson's interpretation of torque.
Forces acting in opposite directions causing an object to rotate.
Top hand torques the barrel rearward (supination of the top hand forearm) as the bottom hand torques the handle/knob forward (pronation of the bottomhand forearm) in an effort to get the barrel to rotate.......not being pulled by the lead arm through the length of the bat.
Forces acting in opposite directions causing an object to rotate.
Top hand torques the barrel rearward (supination of the top hand forearm) as the bottom hand torques the handle/knob forward (pronation of the bottomhand forearm) in an effort to get the barrel to rotate.......not being pulled by the lead arm through the length of the bat.
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
I'm no scientist so this is a layperson's interpretation of torque.
Forces acting in opposite directions causing an object to rotate.
Top hand torques the barrel rearward (supination of the top hand forearm) as the bottom hand torques the handle/knob forward (pronation of the bottomhand forearm) in an effort to get the barrel to rotate.......not being pulled by the lead arm through the length of the bat.
I'm trying to get something out of this and I'm almost there. Can you please translate the layman's explanation into English for me.
Is it cocking the barrel toward pitcher?
Cocking the barrel would be loading the mechanism.
That would be torquing in the "other" direction......before launch.
That would be torquing in the "other" direction......before launch.
quote:Top hand torques the barrel rearward (supination of the top hand forearm) as the bottom hand torques the handle/knob forward (pronation of the bottomhand forearm) in an effort to get the barrel to rotate.......not being pulled by the lead arm through the length of the bat.
AND
"You can see Gwynn and Bonds create early batspeed by torquing the handle, getting the barrel to blur rearward, as they launch their swing. This is a running start of the barrel, yet they've made no commitment to swing."
---------------------------
This is very good!
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
Cocking the barrel would be loading the mechanism.
That would be torquing in the "other" direction......before launch.
So, you are talking about laying the bat down flat by tucking your elbow and taking the bat to the ball knob first, or are you saying that a hitter needs to consciously pull the bat head rearward with the top hand? I think as long as you have tension top against bottom hand (top pushing forward and bottom pushing rearward) you don't have to consciously pull the barrel back to lay it down. It seems to me that if you did that the barrel may drop down too far unless you caughit somehow. Am I still not getting what you are saying?
I think I am understanding it as a rolling over of the wrist and forearm, not a move with the elbow. Where the top forearm goes to facing up and the bottom to facing down at the very early stage of launch. Am I getting this at all?
