rotational clarification

quote:

Originally posted by deaconspoint:
I think I am understanding it as a rolling over of the wrist and forearm, not a move with the elbow. Where the top forearm goes to facing up and the bottom to facing down at the very early stage of launch. Am I getting this at all?

That to me is getting on the plane of the pitch with a flat bat. Part of that can be done by lining up your knuckles to contact in the right position. Golfers sometimes change their grips to keep from hooking or slicing (strong or weak grip). If you have either of these AT contact, you will lose wrist angle and power.

TORQUING THE HANDLE MEANS UNCOCKING/UNTIPPING BY TURNING THE BAT ABOUT A POINT BETWEEN THE HANDS BEFORE THE SHOULDERS EITHER TILT OR TURN (HANDS "STAY BACK" WHILE SHOULDERS "RESIST" BEING TURNED FORWARD BY THE OPENING/TURNING OF HIPS WORKING ITS WAY UP TORSO).

THERE IS A "RUNNING START" WHERE THE FRONT LEG TURNS OPEN,THEN THE HIPS TURN OPEN AS THE HANDLE IS TORQUED.

AFTER THIS RUNNING START IS UNDERWAY, THE HIPS ARE FIRED AS THE SHOULDERS ARE TILTED (SHOULDERS CONTINUE TO "RESIST" TURNING WITH HIPS) FOR A LAST QUICK STRETCH OF THE TORSO BETWEEN HIPS AND SHOULDERS,THEN THE BATHEAD FIRES OUT IN THE RESULTING SWING PLANE.

RUNNING START AND SWINGPLANE/TIMING CONTROLLED BY HANDS(BRAIN).

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
CoachB

Maybe you didn't read the thread. The discussion turned to "knob to the ball" and the quality of that "cue".

That clip is an excellent example of how "knob to the ball" doesn't describe the mlb pattern.

Things "left out"? Are you also referring to the promise that the amateur would continue to work on duplicating Bonds swing and then report back what he had to do to be successful?

He has not continued his quest. You know why? I do.

Not sure why you insist on changing the subject.

How about staying on point. What do you think about the "knob to the ball" cue?

First, the person you used in your demonstration does not use that cue and so, perhaps I misunderstood that you were presenting him as someone that does. In fact, and presenting my own opinion, "knob to the ball" isn't very efficient since if those hands remain "connected," the movement is more of an eliptical movement than a straight line. I'm not trying to change the topic OR do any strawman presentations. I explained my "things left out" when I explained the intent of the swing as well as stated that it was one of many swings. No deception there at all. I do wonder why, when I explain the intent of your example and that the person readily admits it is one of several attempts to duplicate Bond's swing and so, perhaps not a fair comparison, you then accuse me of attempting to change the subject.

Per other stuff "left out" or any agenda I might have, I make no bones about that person doing the demonstration and that he is one of my friends. That demonstration is as much about trying to identify links in the kenetic chain as it is duplicating Bonds. In other words, that presenter mentions several times on his own website the enormous attention to detail that is required to attempt to change one's ingrained habits in an attempt to create a swing similar to MLB players.

Per any other arguments on duplicating Bond's swing, I could tell you but then I'd have to

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
TORQUING THE HANDLE MEANS UNCOCKING/UNTIPPING BY TURNING THE BAT ABOUT A POINT BETWEEN THE HANDS BEFORE THE SHOULDERS EITHER TILT OR TURN (HANDS "STAY BACK" WHILE SHOULDERS "RESIST" BEING TURNED FORWARD BY THE OPENING/TURNING OF HIPS WORKING ITS WAY UP TORSO).

THERE IS A "RUNNING START" WHERE THE FRONT LEG TURNS OPEN,THEN THE HIPS TURN OPEN AS THE HANDLE IS TORQUED.

AFTER THIS RUNNING START IS UNDERWAY, THE HIPS ARE FIRED AS THE SHOULDERS ARE TILTED (SHOULDERS CONTINUE TO "RESIST" TURNING WITH HIPS) FOR A LAST QUICK STRETCH OF THE TORSO BETWEEN HIPS AND SHOULDERS,THEN THE BATHEAD FIRES OUT IN THE RESULTING SWING PLANE.

RUNNING START AND SWINGPLANE/TIMING CONTROLLED BY HANDS(BRAIN).

This is done by rotating the wrists rather than uncocking or changing the "hinge angle"?

quote:

TORQUING THE HANDLE MEANS UNCOCKING/UNTIPPING BY TURNING THE BAT ABOUT A POINT BETWEEN THE HANDS BEFORE THE SHOULDERS EITHER TILT OR TURN (HANDS "STAY BACK" WHILE SHOULDERS "RESIST" BEING TURNED FORWARD BY THE OPENING/TURNING OF HIPS WORKING ITS WAY UP TORSO).

Are you guys saying that you can't hit Major League pitching without doing this? I don't see it in Mel Ott's swing anywhere and he did pretty well. Is this just something that makes it easier in your opinion?

the one clip I have of Ott(either it's Ott or Happy Gilmore) shows some torquing right as the front foot touches down. The hands stay back as the bat comes down from more vertical to more horizontal. Lead arm comes up as back arm slots producing torque (via turning wrists as opposed to cocking/uncocking as Deacon's point says).

quote:

Originally posted by tom.guerry:
the one clip I have of Ott(either it's Ott or Happy Gilmore) shows some torquing right as the front foot touches down. The hands stay back as the bat comes down from more vertical to more horizontal. Lead arm comes up as back arm slots producing torque (via turning wrists as opposed to cocking/uncocking as Deacon's point says).

I am absolutely sure he torques his body, but the bat is laying flat when he goes to the ball. What he does before that means nothing. He pulls the knob end of the bat to the ball as he tucks his elbow into his side. The "point between the hands" torque you are talking about, happens naturally when you do this. I know, because I've been doing it for 40 years and am doing it right now and can see and feel the bat turn in my hands. It is not something I have to consciously try to do, except for the fact that I am trying to get my hands in the correct position at contact (top hand up and bottom hand down), it just happens. But I do try to get them there asap so that if I am late on a pitch, I will still be in good position at contact. Is this what you are talking about??? Mel Ott, started with his hands laying down with the hands facing as I described so the bat didn't turn in his hands. And yes, Happy Gilmore would be a good description of his swing.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
What he does before that means nothing.

That's why they do it, right? Just cuz.

quote:

That's why they do it, right? Just cuz.

I don't think so!!

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
What he does before that means nothing.

That's why they do it, right? Just cuz.

It's a matter of style. Although, the forward cocking of the barrel does help the bat get started easier as it bounces back, but Ted Williams and Barry Bonds use that move with low hands and it gives that type hitter an extra split second to adjust to a pitch or to decide whether or not to swing. It allows the bat to hesitate, but not stop moving. The same move with high hands hitters gives them more batspeed, but not quite as long to wait since they have farther to go to get their hands down to the plane of the pitch.IMO After the elbow tucks, most good hitters' hands are in the same spot.

You give a decent explanation of why they do it and yet you call it 'style'?

Please.

That is technique. Technique with a purpose. Technique that is extremely important to the task at hand.

Technique that solves the problem. The problem being how do I catch up to 90+ mph and at the same time be able to adjust for the slider, the curve and the changeup.

The answer is the running start. Of the barrel. And of the lower body. A running start that does not require commitment until later. The barrel is moving within the swing plane but not commited.

Yes, hitters have different technique. What works for one may not work for another. So, he develops his own technique.

Using the word 'style' doesn't do justice to what and why they do it.

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:

quote:

Originally posted by micmeister:
What he does before that means nothing.

That's why they do it, right? Just cuz.

It's a matter of style. Although, the forward cocking of the barrel does help the bat get started easier as it bounces back, but Ted Williams and Barry Bonds use that move with low hands and it gives that type hitter an extra split second to adjust to a pitch or to decide whether or not to swing. It allows the bat to hesitate, but not stop moving. The same move with high hands hitters gives them more batspeed, but not quite as long to wait since they have farther to go to get their hands down to the plane of the pitch.IMO After the elbow tucks, most good hitters' hands are in the same spot.

Some guys like Williams and Bonds raise their hands when loading to hit and that is why they start lower. Other guys like Vlad lower their hands and that is why they start higher. They all end up in the same place (about armpit to shoulder height) when the front foot comes down, so they end up having to go the same distance to hit the ball.

The problem with many kids is that the ones who lower their hands start low and the ones that raise their hands start high......they then end up at the end of the bench.

quote:

Originally posted by Chameleon:
You give a decent explanation of why they do it and yet you call it 'style'?

Please.

That is technique. Technique with a purpose. Technique that is extremely important to the task at hand.

Technique that solves the problem. The problem being how do I catch up to 90+ mph and at the same time be able to adjust for the slider, the curve and the changeup.

The answer is the running start. Of the barrel. And of the lower body. A running start that does not require commitment until later. The barrel is moving within the swing plane but not commited.


Using the word 'style' doesn't do justice to what and why they do it.

Okay! Just for you, I'll change words. LOL

Yes, hitters have different technique. What works for one may not work for another. So, he develops his own technique.


You don't know how happy I was to see you say that! I hate the thought of cloning hitters!