So what does everyone really think?
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Well.....Ive never heard the concept but it seems to me that if your always gonna pull the ball that its not so good because teams will notice that and play the shift on you. Not to mention you'll hit weaker on piches around the outside corner. If (like you said) you can spray the ball around thats gonna be a lot better for a hitter because you will then have pretty good power to all fields as well as be able to "hit it where they aint". Thats how I see it. I dont know though Im just a kid.
not that i am an expert, but we were told that if a kid wants to play at the next level he needs to spray the ball to all fields.
Watch the major leaguers . Most of em are rotational type of hitters . Rotational hitting does not just entail pulling the ball ..that is just untrue . Do some homework .
Rotational hitting involves driving the swing through the pitch. If the pitch is outside the hitter will hit the ball the other way. Rotational hitting has more hitters hitting homers the other way than years past where they threw their hands at the ball. Don't confuse bringing the hands to the ball as being rotational or linear. It's all in the context of the converation what it means.
Maybe one of the moderators could take this discussion thread to the "Hitting" forum ... that's what it is there for.
You took the words right otta my mouth Mary Ann!
(gosh, that almost sounded like Meatloaf!) Long live the king of rock and roll!
(gosh, that almost sounded like Meatloaf!) Long live the king of rock and roll!
The first day my son went to his hitting instructor he said he teaches rotational hitting,he then went on to say,it teaches you to hit the ball to ALL FIELDS with power.
He also uses the Epstein approach.
I will say this though,he taught to setup close to the plate.Making it easier to pull more pitches.
He also uses the Epstein approach.
I will say this though,he taught to setup close to the plate.Making it easier to pull more pitches.
derogatory? sarcastic? Hiding behind religion??
Perhaps Hit It Here should Hit the bricks.
That was merely a comment to the moderators to move this post to the hitting forum. Where, perhaps, it would get a bit more discussion, possibly more than you're willing to read.
However, with your thin skinned approach thus far, I'd suggest you be very very careful in the hitting forum.
Welcome to the High School Baseball Web, pull up a chair and share some good conversation.
Perhaps Hit It Here should Hit the bricks.
That was merely a comment to the moderators to move this post to the hitting forum. Where, perhaps, it would get a bit more discussion, possibly more than you're willing to read.
However, with your thin skinned approach thus far, I'd suggest you be very very careful in the hitting forum.
Welcome to the High School Baseball Web, pull up a chair and share some good conversation.
quote:Originally posted by Hit It Here:
I have . Every website from Mike Epstien and pinkman down and everyone I have talked to talks about hitting EVERY pitch out front. Mostly at full extension front elbow up. Out front doesn't send anything the other way. The major leagers they show on the sites are just the big home run hitters. All pulling. Not everyone will be a Bonds. There theory is matching the plain of the bat to the ball. You can't do that without hitting out front.
It means in front of your body, not in front of the plate. The hands will be in front of the bellybutton on all pitches. The body just won't rotate as far before contact on outside pitches.
Getting on the plane of the pitch is simply matching the arch of your swing to the downward angle of the pitch from the mound instead of swinging level.
The mechanics of the swing put the bat on the plane of the pitch.
By the way,I sent you a pm.
I believe it was CoachB25 that posted these a while back,they are a good illustration of how this is done.
By the way,I sent you a pm.
I believe it was CoachB25 that posted these a while back,they are a good illustration of how this is done.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hit It Here:
To match the plain it would seem you need to be more than 50% thruthe swing to be coming up.QUOTE]
Hitithere, this is not necessarily the case. The average major league swing "bottoms out" about 18 inches before contact, so a hitter matches the plane of the pitch before he gets to the hitting zone. Therfore, it is very possible to be swing up to the ball and hit it deep in the zone and go opposite field.
And don't let the name rotational fool you, it's not necessarily a spinning, pull off the ball-type of swing. It simply means that the rotation of the body is the foundation of the swing, rather than the thrusting of the hands...
To match the plain it would seem you need to be more than 50% thruthe swing to be coming up.QUOTE]
Hitithere, this is not necessarily the case. The average major league swing "bottoms out" about 18 inches before contact, so a hitter matches the plane of the pitch before he gets to the hitting zone. Therfore, it is very possible to be swing up to the ball and hit it deep in the zone and go opposite field.
And don't let the name rotational fool you, it's not necessarily a spinning, pull off the ball-type of swing. It simply means that the rotation of the body is the foundation of the swing, rather than the thrusting of the hands...
HitItHere-
you are lost and confused! Rotational is not pulling a pitch... just as Linear is not hitting to opposite field...
you obviously don't need to be giving guidance, in hitting, to anyone....
show me one pro scout that doesn't like to see quality swings (which are rotational by definition) and I will show you another 30 who do - and every college coach as well.... whether they know the difference or not, the swing is productive, if the player has ability....
you are lost and confused! Rotational is not pulling a pitch... just as Linear is not hitting to opposite field...
you obviously don't need to be giving guidance, in hitting, to anyone....
show me one pro scout that doesn't like to see quality swings (which are rotational by definition) and I will show you another 30 who do - and every college coach as well.... whether they know the difference or not, the swing is productive, if the player has ability....
tfox, I made the holliday sequence at bbf
There are too many ways to rotate, that's the hard part to describe, understand, and replicate. My thought is the baseball swing is all about falling. But that's something else.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Forget trying to rotate....You'll be learning the wrong stuff....
In general, I agree.
blue-
then why are the players so successful?
define "wrong stuff." with examples... not pictures, use your words....
then why are the players so successful?
define "wrong stuff." with examples... not pictures, use your words....
blue-
i asked for you to "define wrong stuff with examples"....
don't have to "sit"... i see a number of high level swings where players have a slight rearward lean.. and back knee is bent... a little equal and opposite reaction... bottom line, don't let the players hips drift or "lunge"... block off the front side and let the kinetic link /momentum do its thing....
are you going to define "wrong stuff?"
i asked for you to "define wrong stuff with examples"....
don't have to "sit"... i see a number of high level swings where players have a slight rearward lean.. and back knee is bent... a little equal and opposite reaction... bottom line, don't let the players hips drift or "lunge"... block off the front side and let the kinetic link /momentum do its thing....
are you going to define "wrong stuff?"
blue-
and no, i am not still sitting on my back leg and swinging, because i don't play anymore...
but my players all have the nice rearward lean, for the most part... - the handful in the Majors, the 13 in minors, the 50 plus in college, and the handful in high school - and all these players started with me when in high school or younger... from launch to contact, they are pretty much identical as far as mechanics go...
Big XII didn't mind what I was teaching, as player was named 2008 Newcomer of the Year and Player of the Year... as his older brother made his debut with Texas Rangers....
Another 18 just started their freshman year in college this past August... all on scholarship... their recruiters didn't mind what they saw... surly all these coaches can't be wrong on what they "like." Or are they all brainwashed too?
How are your players doing?
and no, i am not still sitting on my back leg and swinging, because i don't play anymore...
but my players all have the nice rearward lean, for the most part... - the handful in the Majors, the 13 in minors, the 50 plus in college, and the handful in high school - and all these players started with me when in high school or younger... from launch to contact, they are pretty much identical as far as mechanics go...
Big XII didn't mind what I was teaching, as player was named 2008 Newcomer of the Year and Player of the Year... as his older brother made his debut with Texas Rangers....
Another 18 just started their freshman year in college this past August... all on scholarship... their recruiters didn't mind what they saw... surly all these coaches can't be wrong on what they "like." Or are they all brainwashed too?
How are your players doing?
blue-
50% of the players i work with came to me before h.s. and stay with me through high school and/or college (depending on where they end up living)...
my high school players are with me periodically through their school year (once a week, once a month or somewhere in between) and then in the summers are with me 4-5 days per week for 8 weeks playing, working out for college coaches and pro scouts.... in the fall (Sept-Oct) we are together, if not every Sat/Sun, at least one day a weekend working them out for scouts (college/pro) as well...
so when you have "clients" that end up sticking around with you and spending the majority of their time in the summer and their weekends in the fall with you for 3-6 years.. i tend to call them "my players." Just as they would refer to me as their "coach."
who wouldn't?
50% of the players i work with came to me before h.s. and stay with me through high school and/or college (depending on where they end up living)...
my high school players are with me periodically through their school year (once a week, once a month or somewhere in between) and then in the summers are with me 4-5 days per week for 8 weeks playing, working out for college coaches and pro scouts.... in the fall (Sept-Oct) we are together, if not every Sat/Sun, at least one day a weekend working them out for scouts (college/pro) as well...
so when you have "clients" that end up sticking around with you and spending the majority of their time in the summer and their weekends in the fall with you for 3-6 years.. i tend to call them "my players." Just as they would refer to me as their "coach."
who wouldn't?
Bluuuuuueeeeeee???????
quote:Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Bluuuuuueeeeeee???????
White, lets getem fight fight fight !
Rotational....linear.....
Major league hitters hit both ways.
Major league hitters hit both ways.
IMO, the advantage of "rotational" hitting is adjustability and not necassarly power.
RollItUp- In spring of 2008, ANOTHER (meaning MLB uses different companies all the time) Biomechanic Co. stated that roughly 5% of MLB hitters swing repeatedly using linear mechanics... 95% used rotational. Think it was ISBS?? (International Society of Biomechanics in Sports).
This was by pure laws of physics... and I believe it said when the hitter acknowledged 2/3 or 3/3 of pitch variables (i.e. velocity, movement, location).. meaning if they anticiapted and were correct on at least two of them if not all three and put a good, solid, confident swing to the baseball.... obviously I see that as if they only got 1 of 3 that meant they were probably fooled, i.e. bad swing, buckled knees, etc... or 0-3...
I think a lot of people assume rotational= must be a HR hitter... and linear = must be a singles only hitter... don't believe either is true... BUT LAball, through the laws of physics, rotational is "power"... and it is reffered to as effortless power (because you are allowing physics to do a chunk of the work for you).. opposed to trying to "muscle" the bat through in a gym-rat way...
of course people will argure that but I have people argue with me that when you swing a hammer to hammer in a nail that that is not rotational... but what path is the head of hammer traveling - usually about 90 degrees of a circle...
i think the majority of players (youth) will be more productive using "rotational" type principles over using "linear" type... I think they have a much better chance of reaching their potential as well... I don't care what you call it... I just want my players to be as successful as they can and play the game as long as they can... because we all know, when it (actually playing the game) is gone it's gone...
But again, JMO...
This was by pure laws of physics... and I believe it said when the hitter acknowledged 2/3 or 3/3 of pitch variables (i.e. velocity, movement, location).. meaning if they anticiapted and were correct on at least two of them if not all three and put a good, solid, confident swing to the baseball.... obviously I see that as if they only got 1 of 3 that meant they were probably fooled, i.e. bad swing, buckled knees, etc... or 0-3...
I think a lot of people assume rotational= must be a HR hitter... and linear = must be a singles only hitter... don't believe either is true... BUT LAball, through the laws of physics, rotational is "power"... and it is reffered to as effortless power (because you are allowing physics to do a chunk of the work for you).. opposed to trying to "muscle" the bat through in a gym-rat way...
of course people will argure that but I have people argue with me that when you swing a hammer to hammer in a nail that that is not rotational... but what path is the head of hammer traveling - usually about 90 degrees of a circle...
i think the majority of players (youth) will be more productive using "rotational" type principles over using "linear" type... I think they have a much better chance of reaching their potential as well... I don't care what you call it... I just want my players to be as successful as they can and play the game as long as they can... because we all know, when it (actually playing the game) is gone it's gone...
But again, JMO...
quote:I don't care what you call it... I just want my players to be as successful as they can and play the game as long as they can...
Diablo - I hear you. My belief is the amount of effort in trying to distinguish between the Linear/Rotational hitting is all words and different interpretations.
If you watch MLB hitters swing, almost all have linear movements and rotation movements. I think dwelling on one motion over the other is confusing for many and a waste of time.
Rotational swing has linear in it.
Linear swing has rotational in it.
Teach the swing the right way (with linear and rotation) and avoid the battles over interpretations.
No such thing as rotational hitting....
Doesn't exist.....
"Rotational hitting" is a marketing tool which was created to make money.....
You can call anything whatever you want, but, the great hitters shift their weight forward and extend their arms.....And, it begins with stretch.....
This swing produced a homerun.....Weight shift and arm extension beginning with stretch.....
Doesn't exist.....
"Rotational hitting" is a marketing tool which was created to make money.....
You can call anything whatever you want, but, the great hitters shift their weight forward and extend their arms.....And, it begins with stretch.....
This swing produced a homerun.....Weight shift and arm extension beginning with stretch.....
blue- ur amazing... i knew all those doctors and engineers and exercise physiologists were wrong...
thanks for your insight... should of listened to you and that english guy you stroke that was drafted in first round that was never even invited to spring training, let alone ever had an at bat....
thanks for the great pics again...
thanks for your insight... should of listened to you and that english guy you stroke that was drafted in first round that was never even invited to spring training, let alone ever had an at bat....
thanks for the great pics again...
I've tried to stay out of this argument but will note a few things. This video of Manny has caused quite a stir. All of a sudden people are using it as some type of reference to disprove past hitting research. (BTW, in the previously supplied video of Manny that contains the dots to track the bat path, put your cursor on the bill of Manny's helmet. See if that helmet moves.)
I'd suggest one be careful if you intend to put much emphasis on what is happening in this swing. I'd suggest that this is one of those "flukes" in sports. You know, the guy who catches the ball and throws it the full length of the court and it swishes or the guy that for some unknown reason does the impossible. It happens all the time in sports. Yes, this ball went out of the park. Not unlike I've seen balls leave the park before on half swings. In fact, my daughter hit one out of a 210 foot field this summer on a half swing. Was there "extension" in that swing? NOPE! Extension is one of those phrases also that gets confused. Some use the phrase to describe the lead arm and the movement backwards as the swing is initiated. Yet others use the phrase to describe what they see right at or after the point of contact. Stretch is similar in that posters have different visions of what is meant due to the various camps descriptions. So, if you see this video of Rose, is there stretch? Is there extenstion? I'll leave that open for discussion.
A DISCLAIMER but laughing as I do it. NO, not really recommending the site. However, appreciate the video. I have to say got a good laugh though! Heck, glad you didn't replace that video with the one pushing the pole. NOW I'D HAVE BUSTED A GUT ON THAT ONE! (And believe me that wouldn't have been pretty!!!)
How about:
Terms like Rotational and Linear though limited in their actual meaning, do describe various perceptions of teaching the swing. What a parent then has to do is see what is being taught by the instructor. Heck, I've been to hitting clinics where one speaker will use Pujos as the perfect example of a linear hitter and then the next speaker use him as the perfect example of a rotational guy. Kind of messed up!
I'd suggest one be careful if you intend to put much emphasis on what is happening in this swing. I'd suggest that this is one of those "flukes" in sports. You know, the guy who catches the ball and throws it the full length of the court and it swishes or the guy that for some unknown reason does the impossible. It happens all the time in sports. Yes, this ball went out of the park. Not unlike I've seen balls leave the park before on half swings. In fact, my daughter hit one out of a 210 foot field this summer on a half swing. Was there "extension" in that swing? NOPE! Extension is one of those phrases also that gets confused. Some use the phrase to describe the lead arm and the movement backwards as the swing is initiated. Yet others use the phrase to describe what they see right at or after the point of contact. Stretch is similar in that posters have different visions of what is meant due to the various camps descriptions. So, if you see this video of Rose, is there stretch? Is there extenstion? I'll leave that open for discussion.
A DISCLAIMER but laughing as I do it. NO, not really recommending the site. However, appreciate the video. I have to say got a good laugh though! Heck, glad you didn't replace that video with the one pushing the pole. NOW I'D HAVE BUSTED A GUT ON THAT ONE! (And believe me that wouldn't have been pretty!!!)
How about:
Terms like Rotational and Linear though limited in their actual meaning, do describe various perceptions of teaching the swing. What a parent then has to do is see what is being taught by the instructor. Heck, I've been to hitting clinics where one speaker will use Pujos as the perfect example of a linear hitter and then the next speaker use him as the perfect example of a rotational guy. Kind of messed up!
quote:So, if you see this video of Rose, is there stretch? Is there extenstion? I'll leave that open for discussion.
Very little, but I think that's why he didn't have much power.
As far as the Manny swing, I think he kept his stretch because he had to stretch to go down and get the ball, but his strength put it out of the ball park.
quote:Terms like Rotational and Linear though limited in their actual meaning, do describe various perceptions of teaching the swing. What a parent then has to do is see what is being taught by the instructor. Heck, I've been to hitting clinics where one speaker will use Pujos as the perfect example of a linear hitter and then the next speaker use him as the perfect example of a rotational guy. Kind of messed up!
It's just my opinion, but I believe a "linear" movement is back to front head movement before rotation. I've never seen a good hitter that didn't rotate to get to the ball. I believe the difference between "rotational hitters" and "linear hitters" is defined by the way they use weight transfer.
quote:should of listened to you and that english guy you stroke that was drafted in first round that was never even invited to spring training, let alone ever had an at bat....
Diablo, you really don't know the landscape around here....
I'm not a PCR guy...Listening to the above mentioned person is not my cup of tea....
quote:All of a sudden people are using it as some type of reference to disprove past hitting research.
Coach, is this what you meant to say?....What do you mean by past hitting research?
BlueDog, on a couple of sites, one baseball and one softball, this video has been used, comment on, ... in so many different ways that it starts to get wild and crazy. I think that the ball went out because he hit the ball on the sweet spot and his strength assisted him in an absolutely poor swing that had a great result. It is not unlike the times you see a guy get fooled and the next thing you know a HR the opposite way. On one softball site (local) one hitting guru (also local) went on to say that this is the perfect example of why one should hit linear. I look at that swing and it is far from perfect. LOL!
Past hitting research would include those links I once supplied on this site about such concepts as the serape effect. In short, how the muscles of the core work in a relationship to each other which, if shaded or otherwise colored on an image of the inside workings of the body would demonstrate a linkage that wraps around the body similar to that Mexican wrap. (Boy that was wordy.) The research was done by Japanese scientist who worked with the Japanese League. The result of the study suggested that hips and shoulders have to work in a kenetic link in both pitching and hitting. That swing of Manny's would not be indicitive of their perception of a "good, efficient swing." BlueDog, I don't have that link anymore but if you or others will recall, the last time I posted it, I was attacked and not the least of which was that scientist don't hit. Personally, I don't use the statement that I teach rotational hitting. I teach hitting. I see proponents of what is termed "linear" hitting and I don't agree with some of their teaching methods. One softball instructor has his hitter point the tip of the barrel backwards and wants the hitters to get on the front foot over the knee early in the swing. I don't agree with that. What I teach would be more rotational in concept. I often look at swings and use the cursor on my computer. If that hitter can efficiently swing at a ball, drive it, come onto that back toe, open and drive the hips and keep that head resonably in place, I believe that swing can be more repeatable. I know that you don't agree on the hip statement I just made. Well, that is a part of what I believe. I always feel that I do a less than adequate job explaining stuff on a message board. Again, as I pointed out, my child and my players have had a lot of success doing what we do. Well, that should bore everyone here for a day or two.
BTW, did you get a chuckle at Richard's editing of the Rose clip?
Past hitting research would include those links I once supplied on this site about such concepts as the serape effect. In short, how the muscles of the core work in a relationship to each other which, if shaded or otherwise colored on an image of the inside workings of the body would demonstrate a linkage that wraps around the body similar to that Mexican wrap. (Boy that was wordy.) The research was done by Japanese scientist who worked with the Japanese League. The result of the study suggested that hips and shoulders have to work in a kenetic link in both pitching and hitting. That swing of Manny's would not be indicitive of their perception of a "good, efficient swing." BlueDog, I don't have that link anymore but if you or others will recall, the last time I posted it, I was attacked and not the least of which was that scientist don't hit. Personally, I don't use the statement that I teach rotational hitting. I teach hitting. I see proponents of what is termed "linear" hitting and I don't agree with some of their teaching methods. One softball instructor has his hitter point the tip of the barrel backwards and wants the hitters to get on the front foot over the knee early in the swing. I don't agree with that. What I teach would be more rotational in concept. I often look at swings and use the cursor on my computer. If that hitter can efficiently swing at a ball, drive it, come onto that back toe, open and drive the hips and keep that head resonably in place, I believe that swing can be more repeatable. I know that you don't agree on the hip statement I just made. Well, that is a part of what I believe. I always feel that I do a less than adequate job explaining stuff on a message board. Again, as I pointed out, my child and my players have had a lot of success doing what we do. Well, that should bore everyone here for a day or two.
BTW, did you get a chuckle at Richard's editing of the Rose clip?
Not to change the subject, but softball hitting was brought up ( I know nothing of softball) So do there pitches had breaking balls, or is it fastball and change up?
quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Not to change the subject, but softball hitting was brought up ( I know nothing of softball) So do there pitches had breaking balls, or is it fastball and change up?
My daughter throws too many different types of pitches. Her bread and butter pitch is a drop which is very good. She also has a decent but not great fastball. She's throws an OK change. She throws a drop curve and a curve. I wish she'd not throw the curve but she can make it break. She is working on the riseball. She has only thrown it in games a few times. She does not throw a screwball.
quote:Originally posted by LAball:
Not to change the subject, but softball hitting was brought up ( I know nothing of softball) So do there pitches had breaking balls, or is it fastball and change up?
The men's arsenal included
Rise ball
Drop
Gas (104 mph....at 46 ft)
MF Change
The women's arsenal
Rise ball (that does not rise)
Drop (that does not drop)
Fastball - (peak at 67)
Change
Country Curve
All of the widely regarded famous women's softball players in the last twenty years, simply could not compete against any national caliper men's fastpitch teams of any times. With the body strength
is just not there, a Men's Outfield could be
brought in closer, allowing the men's corners
to defend and defeat the small ball / slap threat.
Many of the mens championship teams in the highest of caliber play see 40 K's in a 10 inning 1-0 contest.
Women teams would simply not score before the 8th inning when the International play becomes into effect if tied.
quote:The research was done by Japanese scientist who worked with the Japanese League. The result of the study suggested that hips and shoulders have to work in a kenetic link in both pitching and hitting. That swing of Manny's would not be indicitive of their perception of a "good, efficient swing."
Coach, I prefer to look at the video vs. any research done by any scientists....Their perception does not influence me....My perception does...
Coach, I'm of the opinion that Manny could do use that same "absolutely poor swing" on the same pitch wth the same result again and again......quote:I think that the ball went out because he hit the ball on the sweet spot and his strength assisted him in an absolutely poor swing that had a great result.
quote:BTW, did you get a chuckle at Richard's editing of the Rose clip?
Coach, I had not seen that before.....My opinion is that Richard has no right to do it.....
quote:Again, as I pointed out, my child and my players have had a lot of success doing what we do. Well, that should bore everyone here for a day or two.
Coach, your posts do not bore....I am not naive, or ignorant, enough to discount anything you say....
