Rule Hidden Ball Trick

Nathan posted:

In high school doesn't the pitcher have to be off the dirt to perform the hidden ball trick?

 

Also, what is the rule regarding asking a field umpire for a second opinion.  Some will ask home plate for their opinion some do not.  Is there a set rule?

1) The pitcher cannot be: FED: within 5 feet of the rubber; NCAA: On the dirt; OBR: On or astride the rubber.

2) I assume you are asking about a pulled foot or a swipe tag at first.  There is no real rule.  Sometimes it depends on whether other runners are on base (and, thus, the position of the base umpire).

1. Regarding the hidden ball trick:

I think you're asking about the difference between federation and pro rules. Both rule sets discourage it. The wording is different, but each is broad enough to constitute a general prohibition of the hidden ball trick.

Here's the wording of each (with slight adjustments to make them read as normal sentences). 

High school: It's a balk if there's at least one runner on base and the pitcher places his feet on or astride pitcher's plate or within approx. 5 feet of the plate without the ball or makes any movement naturally associated with his pitch while off plate. 

Pro: It's a balk if the pitcher without the ball on or astride rubber or while off the plate, feins pitch.

2.  Regarding your question on second opinions:  

I'm not sure what you're asking. 

If you're asking whether the manager can himself approach an umpire other than the one who made a call or ruling, no, he cannot. 

If you're asking whether the manager can ask the umpire who made the call or ruling to check with his partner, the answer is maybe. If you phrase the question so that it is a request for additional information about what happened or a clarification of the rules, he generally can consult with his partner. If  your question is about judgment (e.g., did the ball beat the runner?), he generally cannot or should not.

Does this answer your questions?

Swampboy posted:

 

If you're asking whether the manager can ask the umpire who made the call or ruling to check with his partner, the answer is maybe. If you phrase the question so that it is a request for additional information about what happened or a clarification of the rules, he generally can consult with his partner. If  your question is about judgment (e.g., did the ball beat the runner?), he generally cannot or should not.

Does this answer your questions?

 

I don't agree.....the object is to get the call right.  If it's a controversial call and the umpire who made the call cannot guarantee with 100% confidence that his call is correct, he should ask the other umpire(s) for help.  Sure in 99% of the cases, the call won't get changed, but at least you know the guys are making an effort (or at least looking like it) to get the call right.  The game is about the players....not the umpires.

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Swampboy posted:

 

If you're asking whether the manager can ask the umpire who made the call or ruling to check with his partner, the answer is maybe. If you phrase the question so that it is a request for additional information about what happened or a clarification of the rules, he generally can consult with his partner. If  your question is about judgment (e.g., did the ball beat the runner?), he generally cannot or should not.

Does this answer your questions?

 

I don't agree.....the object is to get the call right.  If it's a controversial call and the umpire who made the call cannot guarantee with 100% confidence that his call is correct, he should ask the other umpire(s) for help.  Sure in 99% of the cases, the call won't get changed, but at least you know the guys are making an effort (or at least looking like it) to get the call right.  The game is about the players....not the umpires.

Ok, let's work through your preferred scenario and see what happens. 

District championship game between bitter rival schools. Both fan bases turned out in mass.

Runner on third. Two out. Bottom of 7th. Tie game. Grounder up the middle. Tough play for shortstop, who makes a good play and fires a true throw.

Base umpire moves from "C" into position to make the call, achieves nearly optimal angle and distance. 

Runner from third touches home.

Base umpire gets set. Head still. Eyes on base. Hears pop of ball in glove at approximately the same time he sees runner's foot finish its descent and touch the bag. He's confident--not 100%, but pretty strong--he heard the pop first. 

First base coach and runner emphatically and joyously signal their opinion that he's safe.

Base umpire waits to make call until he verifies catch.

Crowd erupts in expectation of game-ending safe call. 

Base umpire bangs the batter-runner out. Home crowd is enraged.

Head coach of home team comes out to argue.

My way: "I hear you, Coach. I was in good position. I was set. I had an unobstructed view. And I have him out. Call stands. Please get your pitcher warmed up for the top of the eighth."

Your way?

Well, you want any umpire who isn't 100% sure to ask for help. My hypothetical base umpire is 95% sure, so he follows your protocol and asks the plate umpire, who observed the ball hit up the middle, went to first base line extended to observe the touch of home and then watch for a pulled foot or swipe tag. 

By asking for help, the base umpire publicly admits he's not sure.

Luckily the plate umpire is 100% sure. He is certain, absolutely certain, he saw the foot hit before he heard the pop of the mitt. He had Lasik on the off season. He has 20/15 vision. And he is positive of what he saw and heard.

Who now gets to break the tie vote between the 90%-sure base umpire who had the primary responsibility, who was properly positioned and focused on making the judgment in accordance with his training, and the 100%-sure umpire who was ten feet on the other side of home plate, whose primary responsibility was to observe the touch, whose secondary responsibility was to watch for a pulled foot or swipe tag and who had no responsibility for the judgment call?

Your rule creates guaranteed chaos when someone eventually chooses between a) accepting the ruling of the 90%-sure base umpire over the 100% sure plate umpire and stealing victory from the home team, or b) accepting the ruling of the far off plate umpire who had no responsibility for the call over the properly positioned base umpire and ending the season of the visiting team on a reversed call.  

Either way, you own the arguments, ejections, and civil disorder that predictably follow from your dictum that the umpire ask for help whenever he's not 100% sure.

 .  .  . 

By the way, both umpires were right.

The ball popped the mitt 0.02 seconds before the foot touched. The base umpire accurately perceived the sequence. It takes 0.08 seconds for sound to travel 100 feet, and the plate umpire accurately perceived the opposite sequence. He was more confident because he perceived a bigger time difference between the two events. 

If you want certainty, install cameras and change the rules to permit instant replay. Until then, conscientious umpires have to accept responsibility for their own judgment.

Got it now.  Basically on number two I was asking if a coach comes out to argue a call with the field umpire and asks him if he can get a second opinion from his partner at home I have seen some go and get that second opinion and some say no I will not ask him for that second opinion.  Is it his digression to see if he wants home plates second opinion?

Nathan posted:

Got it now.  Basically on number two I was asking if a coach comes out to argue a call with the field umpire and asks him if he can get a second opinion from his partner at home I have seen some go and get that second opinion and some say no I will not ask him for that second opinion.  Is it his digression to see if he wants home plates second opinion?

It always his discretion if he wants a second opinion.  There's no requirement for him to go to his partner.

Generally speaking if I am coaching, I will only ask an umpire to go to his partner if I think his partner may have had a better view of the situation - not because I disagree with what the original umpire has decided based on what he saw.

In those cases, I'll be specific - "From the angle I had, it looked like he pulled his foot off the bag - any way you can check with your partner on it?" 

Don't ask an umpire to get a second opinion on his judgment of a call, only on things he may not have seen that led to that judgment.

On rules issues, handle it the same way.  If you have a specific thing you disagree on, ask him to get his partner's input.  

Nathan posted:

Is it his digression to see if he wants home plates second opinion?

Yes, it's his discretion.  If the question is about a rule, or about something that the BU might not have seen (e.g., the ball was juggled or dropped after a tag, or PU called a balk but BU is sure that the pitcher was off the rubber, or BU is in the middle and doesn't have an angle on the pulled foot or swipe tag at first) then they will get together.  If it's only a judgment issue ("he beat the tag" or "the tag missed") then likely (should be 100%) not.   And, sometimes "fixing it" can cause more problems than not fixing it (how do you properly correct a catch/ no catch in the infield with multiple runners?).

For a pretty good explanation, get the NCAA rules book (it's available on-line as a pdf download) and read appendix D (or maybe E, I forget).  Recognize that it's only the rule for NCAA (especially on what to do on catch / no-catch in the outfield) but it's a good guide for all levels.

I should add that newer umpires and umpires at lower levels (esp. less than varsity) are generally not trained this way and seem to think that it's almost always a good idea to go to a partner when asked -- either to get more information, or to appease a coach.  So, some of the difference in what you see might be based on level and / or the umpire's experience and training.