Select teams and showcases hurting baseball?

I, too, plead guilty.

I think many of the good players and parents leave b/c of the P.C. politics that seem to be taking over wRECk ball. Why put up with the krapp when there is a viable alternative to the local league. In educational terms, this is no difference than parents getting their children placed in AP classes or moving to a private school which may offer (in some cases), a better educational alternative.

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In educational terms, this is no difference than parents getting their children placed in AP classes or moving to a private school which may offer (in some cases), a better educational alternative.

JT, I think you bring up a good point. Possibly the educational comparison rings true here. While a particular student may improve by taking AP courses or attending private school, the overall level of education has rapidly declined in the US. Could it be that those pro-active parents of the AP/private students care less about the "other" student's level of education and public schools in general and have taken their support to where their kids has gone? Why should I support increased taxes to pay for free lunches, new school busses, new books and new schools when I'm paying thousands in private school fees and driving my kids to class everyday?
When my son was "growing up" and playing baseball "it" was much more about the advancement of my son than it was about the advancement of baseball.

The advent of Elite teams in our area have helped. The teams have provided much needed superior coaching for those who want They wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand or it. The cheapest teams are now $5000. plus up to $12000.
There are all kinds of levels that you can play at but it is hard for parents who can't aford the costs of these teams. Many of these teams are registered non profit organizations and some are for profit. This area is strong in hockey, s****r, rowing,lacrosse tennis basket ball and several other sports like golf. This has significantly reduced the guys playing BB. The cost and required dedication to BB has put a lot of kids on the side lines but the serious ones are still there. One friend only played Elite in his final year and got a very good D1 scholarship.

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The advent of Elite teams in our area have helped. The teams have provided much needed superior coaching for those who want They wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand or it. The cheapest teams are now $5000. plus up to $12000.

BHD, How in the world does this help the game of baseball? Has it increased participation, fans, enthusiasm for the game. What should a boy do if he can't scrape up $5,000.00 to play? Play video games, skateboard?
Fungo

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BHD, How in the world does this help the game of baseball? Has it increased participation, fans, enthusiasm for the game. What should a boy do if he can't scrape up $5,000.00 to play? Play video games, skateboard?
Fungo

If a kid can play, the team finds a way to get them on. I have seen this a few times. Parents have no money, but kid is on the team. It is not my business so I don't ask how. I do not have a problem with it, even if some of my fees are allocated to help a few that can't afford it.

IMO Travel and showcasing has made the recruiting and drafting system more efficient. I have not heard of it making the game or players better at the college or pro level. I have heard HS coaches comment that the level of HS play is higher due to travel and fall ball.

Right on! Due to recent events my family is no longer as well off as we were a couple years ago. Now I have a 15 year old son who is fantastic at base ball but the only way it seems that I will be able to help him get ahead is by dropping a load of cash I can not afford to spend. Now I know why only the priviledged or the under-priviledged children seem to have a shot at a successful life. The privilged children's parents can afford what they need and the under-priviledged get financial help. Us middle classers get nothing! I resisted the showcase and elite teams for many years but finally gave in this year as I see the trend and know it is the only shot he has. We don't vacation now and do without more to be able to afford it. I would love to see us going back to how it all began and play for our communities.

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Originally posted by Fungo:

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The advent of Elite teams in our area have helped. The teams have provided much needed superior coaching for those who want They wouldn't exist if there wasn't a demand or it. The cheapest teams are now $5000. plus up to $12000.

BHD, How in the world does this help the game of baseball? Has it increased participation, fans, enthusiasm for the game. What should a boy do if he can't scrape up $5,000.00 to play? Play video games, skateboard?
Fungo

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Fungo...

Yep...a simple numbers game that threatens baseball from top to bottom....But no one cares..Have been bringing this up for years on the HSBBW and in other venues...without any response other than a sound and engergetic shoutdown.

I will take your post one step further...

..a great part of the sucess of baseball has been it's absolute and complete dominance of the numbers game at a youth level. For generations at least 80% of the male youth in nearly every community across this country embraced youth baseball as part of their community and their childhood. This insured that virtually every young man in America with athletic ability was introduced first to baseball. The result was that baseball to a great extent had "first pick". Not all athletes stayed but a large majority stayed with baseball offering it the best athletes and tying in the next generation of fans.

As community youth ball fades, there are two results. First,...the broad chain of baseball from son to father (whether they played at a high level or not)from community generation to generation is lost and youth baseball starts to look more like youth tennis...based more on the limited # who can pay and who can travel rather than who has the best atheltic ability.

The second result is s loss of fan base. This was nation that was raised and "built on baseball". It was the fabric of both communities and of families...and it carried on from generation to generation...building not only community support but a bulletproof fan base for MLB, from common folk, not just the families of high end players. No longer.

Now, I have no doubt that some/many players will benefit and develop much better given the new paradigm, but baseball will lose the numbers game which was it's biggest advantage both in terms of talent, and in terms of fan base. IMO, baseball lives large becasue it has such broad based appeal, baseball fans are families whose male memebrs played 4 years of yough ball, not just thsoe who starred in HS, college or beyond. Baseball prospers becasue until now it was the "first choice " of most every kid. No longer.

The argument that if we work the limited #'s harder and train them better ignores the natural bell curve of athletic ability. There are so many Nolan Ryans, and Sandy Kofax's out there, no matter how hard you try to create more. With all due respects Tim Licecum is a genetic anomolie, as much as he was his fathers "product".

IMO...Baseball is winning the battle (my kid) and losing the war (numbers game)...

44
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Are showcases and select teams hurting baseball?

I might have to answer this one with a yes (nice job bringing this up Fungo)
The biggest problem that I see right now is that the main, if not only, goal of many players and parents is exposure. Teams and coaches are being judged more by their perceived ability to "place" players than their ability to teach the game.(note: I think the term "placement" is not only way overused, but even somewhat insulting to one's intelligence)
What it boils down to is this. There isn't anything wrong with exposure, but if that's what you are looking for, you'd better have something worth exposing(that sounded bad huh )
I see too many players who are so focused on being seen that they forget to become players worth seeing.

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Originally posted by TripleDad: If a kid can play, the team finds a way to get them on. I have seen this a few times….

Fortunately, that does happen, but not on what I’d call a routine or normal basis, and certainly not to the point where the majority of players needing the help but not getting it don’t fall through the cracks.

What are some of the reasons a “club” team would pick up the tab for a player. Would anything change if there was a reliable way to determine how a player would develop?

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IMO...Baseball is winning the battle (my kid) and losing the war (numbers game)..

O44 --- very well stated.

I must say that this thread is very good and very depressing. It ties into other threads about the importance of showcasing and travel and it is making me a bit depressed. With the cost of travel ball and showcasing being as huge as it is, what is going to happen to the good/not great players who can't afford to go?

If you are the second coming of Roberto Clemente it won't matter where you play. But what if you are the second coming of Augie Ojeda? Would you even get a look now if you didn't showcase?

What I have seen over the ;ast 20 years has been unbelieveable. Elit teams firts hit the scene about 20 years ago in our area. We had organizations with 6000 kids registered with Ontario BB Assoc. It was mainly voluteer and still is. It was not always great ball and coaching depending on where you lived. However it did provide good competition and some very good training. Elite teams came along and depleted those teams as far as top players. They provided at a fee professional coaching and training. This was way suppirior to the general OBS teams
Why I say it is better. Well there are options for all levels of players that exist right through to senior ball. There are 3 senior leagues in my area that offer 3 levels of play . The top one is at thye highest level and provides ex college/pros and current college players a place to play. It is as exciting as any ball I have seen. A night at Christie Pits in Toronto during play offs is better than any pro game. Where can yo see players like Paul Spaljeric (Jays) chase a guy around the bases after he hailed his HR . He chased the guy step for step around the bases screaming at him all the way. It cost nothing to watch it and it was also televised.
So now we have 3 excellent senior leagues. We also have rec ball, OBA city teams, distric all star teams and a large HS venue. This was never available before. Yes the numbers overall are down but BB has flourished. With some marketing the OBA has had numbers increase and it just took a little effort. Can't sit back and exspect things to happen. (Sounds kind of familiar). Some parents made up sheets and handed them out to schools and BB membership rose. Also the OBA which watch their numbers erode got smart and instead of resisting the Elite proliferation started to cooperate with them. They even got the Ontario Youth Team to the top of Canadian BB again.
I also had some life changes in 2000 due to diabetes and sudden loss of vision. No longer making the big six figure income but still had 6 figure expenses. In 2000 my son made the Team Ontario which at the time was the rep team for the province and I had to tell him he couldn't play for them. I also had to cut deals every where he played so I know only too well how expensive it was. We managed and believe me it was hard on us. We had no money saved for college because I had kids to raise. My son had to get a big scholarship because we are out of state and are actually foreigners. We didn't attend any show cases other than one put on by his team and we already had several offers based on self promotion. My son understood and I told himright up front.
We were Elite team tryout junkies attending tryout for several Elite teams. They used to be free and would last several days. We learned more from those than anything. Some held 15 tryouts and we attended most of them. MLB players and coaches in attendance. The tryouts were better than the team workouts because they were trying to sell their program. Most tryouts had over 100 players in attendance and they were a blast He got used to competing and meeting people he didn't know and I credit his success with his ability to mingle. When you do this and play agianst the best players even ex pro and current college players from 15yo you know who you are and what you can do.
I can't say enough about how great BB is in our area and I believe it is due to the Elite ball and the fact that there are ball players who can play after their careers are over.
BB was so restricted before and there was no future beyond 19yo unless you played college or pro.
Not everyone is an Elite player and they have to face it at some point. Not every player on an Elite team is an Elite player but at least they have a place to play if they still love the game.
Our senior teams are expanding and that is a result of the supply of great ball players in the area.

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Doughnutman

I am not against travel or showcaseing per se...they have their place...exposure and competition are important as players develop...But I do believe that it is not only shortsighted but potentially disasterious to the baseball community as a whole not to do everything in it's power to keep community leagues in place and prospering...offering exposure to the game and churning out large numbers of players and future fans...at least for a portion of the year.

Interesting that that while many discount the danger...MLB is putting money into the inner city, trying to regrow the game there where it has been lost to a great extent...Maybe it's just mainly PR but I think they understand that the loss of community leagues there (while not the result of Showcasing or travel) has hurt their ability to both find talent and connect with a historic fan base...

44
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A lot depends on the showcase/tournament team you are playing on and how they handle the exposure aspect

This weekend, dead time for Division I , we are in a tournament where we have advised the kids to touch base with schools they have an interest in that region---in return we are getting phone calls regarding asking and when they will be pitching/playing etc as well as discussing the players ability et al

I do not know what other similar teams do but I know what we do--perhaps that is why our track record is what it is


I do not think the progress has hurt baseball in the least--I think the tournament scene has made it easier for college coaches to see kids--thyey are all in one venue

Baseball is flourishing. MLB games are often sold out and even better attendance is found each year at milb. They provide entertainment and a "cheap" night out for the whole family. College baseball is more popular than ever. More and more baseball discussion boards than I have ever seen. More and more books, videos, all kinds of equimpment to make you a better player. Young players taking to the gym, more dads with radar guns at the field.

I see more and more travel teams holding out the helmet at Walamrt, Target and large grocery chains for travel to destinations to Cooperstown, Steamboat Springs, Disney tournies. Rec ball does not provide these options, and these are great venues for young players to experience, IMO.

I come from an average middle class neighborhood of hard working folks who want the best for their kids, just like everyone else, most likely spending more for travel ball all over the country than needed for their players age just to keep up with what the neighbors kids are doing.

Yet local recreational community ball is dying, I am not sure if it is the quest for better competition or a better quest to follow the dream. I do beleive that travel ball, showcases have their purpose, but for our youth, nothing wrong with staying close to home and enjoying playing the game in the neighborhood.

One other thing, I did read somewhere that the scouts felt that 2009 would be a down year in talent (HS) for the draft. I don't know if that was true, but how can that be with so many kids now playing elite travel ball, or has it actually become watered down talent, or maybe tired, hurt, etc.

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Originally posted by rbinaz:
The biggest problem that I see right now is that the main, if not only, goal of many players and parents is exposure.

They do so at their own risk. I can name quite a few players whose parents sunk a lot of money into "exposure" events only to lose focus on the best bang for the buck: Specific training to improve the player's game. One kid I recommended to attend the PG Northwest showcase gets clocked sub-70. I had no idea. Those parents should have had their kid get a qualified pitching instructor and work out more to gain velocity. What is the point of showcasing a sub-70 fastball?

A player should play at the highest level he can afford.. within reason. What is the marginal benefit of playing for an "elite" team for $5,000 or a "super-elite" team for $20,000? Not much, and I'd say the $15,000 difference would have been more wisely spent on specific training and a few PG showcases.. and I'd still have nearly 10k left over.
Parents should focus their player's efforts on physical and specfic training, and when he has an elite talent (or projected elite talent) only then should "showcase" that kid. Then put the kid on an affordable travel team that competes against quality teams. Don't necessarily have to be on the best team.

Bum,
Good points but...I know of a player who as a HS player made headlines in his small town. The parent was definetly convinced that he was top D1 material.
Attended one showcase, he didn't fair well compared to others of his age group. The parent then realized that their son's talent is what it was, and that he would be at best a lower tier D1 player or best chances to go to JUCO to improve. I think that helped to save lots of money by keeping it simple.
Sometimes it's just good to have your son evaluated by those that don't see things the way you do, even with great stats.
If a player showcases and throws 70's, that should help the player and his parents to define where he needs improvement or open their eyes to save money before they spend it. JMO.

My dad played baseball. He signed me up to play baseball. I signed my son up to play baseball.

When I was the commissioner of the 7/8 rec baseball league I told some over the top parents to relax since from the ages of 7-12 we are more likely to develop baseball fans than high school baseball players.

What happens to interest in baseball with the next generation where far fewer dads (our kid's generation) played spring s****r or lacrosse and summer s****r, lacrosse or basketball rather than baseball? Will they sign their kids up for baseball? Probably not. Will these kids be fans if they never have a taste of the game? Probably not.