Hi BlueDog,
From the look of this hitter's lead forearm, I would say the swing plane will be in the shoulder plane at contact. It would be interesting to see the clip advanced to contact. The lead forearm appears to be somewhat parallel to the shoulders.
Chameleon,
Thanks for the clip...a thing of beauty! Is this swing an example of what you refer to as a "two-piece swing?" It appears the swing begins with tip and rip and is not lined up with the shoulder plane. But as the swing progresses, both swing plane and shoulder plane are more or less parallel to each other at contact.
Thanks a lot!
Thanks for the clip...a thing of beauty! Is this swing an example of what you refer to as a "two-piece swing?" It appears the swing begins with tip and rip and is not lined up with the shoulder plane. But as the swing progresses, both swing plane and shoulder plane are more or less parallel to each other at contact.
Thanks a lot!
Flipper, would you say hitters Dont send the barrel rearward? Would you say you could show hitters who dont send the barrel rearward? Would you say you could make an on=bservation of some hitters who do not send the barrel rearward? Would you say a hitter brings around the barrel of the bat? If so how?
This barrel is not going rearward.
It just appears to do so.
It just appears to do so.
You messed up the fun Chameleon. I wanted to see if flipper could answer a few questions.
Isn't it amazing what happens when you hold a 33 inch stick in your hands, and they move forward.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:quote:......I think it's the result of how he unloads his upper body.
Flipp, so do I......
When his upper body "gets unloaded" might be a better way to think of what actually happens.
Don't think about the unload of the upper body for a moment.
Think instead (just for a minute):
The upper body "becomes unloaded" as a result.
If you wish ---attempt to move the barrel on a path like the clip of Ortiz --by the means you choose-- the answer will start to be felt and you will draw your own conclusions as to the 'how'
Vance34,
If you have something to add that is relevant to this topic please do so. But if you're posting here just to be "cute" please find a different thread. Or better yet, find a different web site. There are plenty out there where you can continue the ongoing pi$$ing contest.
Thanks!
Jason
If you have something to add that is relevant to this topic please do so. But if you're posting here just to be "cute" please find a different thread. Or better yet, find a different web site. There are plenty out there where you can continue the ongoing pi$$ing contest.
Thanks!
Jason
Chameleon/BlueDog,
I think I finally understand what is being talked about here. Maybe not though. I'll attempt to explain what I "think" you believe. Please let me know if I'm still out in left field.
Let's use this clip of Ortiz that Chameleon posted...
Based on that clip, and the things I've read in this thread and others here I'm thinking this clip is supposed to show top hand supination "sending the barrel rearward" and around to the ball. If that is correct then this "swivel" that Chameleon believes exists is actually the uncurling of the back arm due to this top hand supination. This supination is something that is done literally by the hitter. In other words it isn't something that just happens. You want the hitter to actually force the supination.
Is that an accurate understanding or am I still lost? I'm honestly trying to understand what is being said here so be patient.
Thanks!
Jason
I think I finally understand what is being talked about here. Maybe not though. I'll attempt to explain what I "think" you believe. Please let me know if I'm still out in left field.
Let's use this clip of Ortiz that Chameleon posted...
Based on that clip, and the things I've read in this thread and others here I'm thinking this clip is supposed to show top hand supination "sending the barrel rearward" and around to the ball. If that is correct then this "swivel" that Chameleon believes exists is actually the uncurling of the back arm due to this top hand supination. This supination is something that is done literally by the hitter. In other words it isn't something that just happens. You want the hitter to actually force the supination.
Is that an accurate understanding or am I still lost? I'm honestly trying to understand what is being said here so be patient.
Thanks!
Jason
SO often I think we get the process of the swing confused with the result of movements. In each of the clips posted the bat moves when the back elbow moves toward the body. If the hands moved the bat first, you would see movement prior to the elbow moving. Does the bat go rear-ward..yes. Hold a bat and lower your back elbow to your side and guess what, the bat will go rear-ward. This is not really very exciting. The exciting thing is to watch how the great hitters keep that barrel back and explode with the hands at the last minute. This is why I have always believed that the body helps the timing and positioning and the hands actually start the swing. In clips of hitters taking pitches, the hips move the bat goes rear-ward (because the elbow is tight) but the hands do not commit. Hands are the key in my opinion. It is interesting to see that others have come full circle in this area. The truly Holly Grail of hitting is the same as it always has been. Wait long, keep the hands back as long as possible and explode with the hands in a level swing.
quote:Wait long, keep the hands back as long as possible and explode with the hands in a level swing.
Level? Level to....
quote:Based on that clip, and the things I've read in this thread and others here I'm thinking this clip is supposed to show top hand supination "sending the barrel rearward" and around to the ball. If that is correct then this "swivel" that Chameleon believes exists is actually the uncurling of the back arm due to this top hand supination. This supination is something that is done literally by the hitter. In other words it isn't something that just happens. You want the hitter to actually force the supination.
Do you:
Force the shoulders to rotate?
Force the back knee's action?
Force the back foot to come up on the toe?
Force the weight to shift, the mass to move?
quote:Is that an accurate understanding or am I still lost? I'm honestly trying to understand what is being said here so be patient.
Me too.
flip-
the barrell got its rearward running start BEFORE the part of the swing you show in the clip.
the barrell got its rearward running start BEFORE the part of the swing you show in the clip.
Yes Noreast I know some will gasp, but I like to see hitters keep the bat in the zone at a level plane (to the ground) as long as possible. A slight upswing will occur at the final third of the swing but I like as "level as possible." Understanding of course that this will not be perfectly level to the ground, but the idea is there and the attempt at being in the zone as long as possible without a big upswing.
Good bat path---Good swing.
Looks like the pitcher "hung" one.
Looks like the pitcher "hung" one.
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
SO often I think we get the process of the swing confused with the result of movements. In each of the clips posted the bat moves when the back elbow moves toward the body. If the hands moved the bat first, you would see movement prior to the elbow moving. Does the bat go rear-ward..yes. Hold a bat and lower your back elbow to your side and guess what, the bat will go rear-ward. This is not really very exciting. The exciting thing is to watch how the great hitters keep that barrel back and explode with the hands at the last minute. This is why I have always believed that the body helps the timing and positioning and the hands actually start the swing. In clips of hitters taking pitches, the hips move the bat goes rear-ward (because the elbow is tight) but the hands do not commit. Hands are the key in my opinion. It is interesting to see that others have come full circle in this area. The truly Holly Grail of hitting is the same as it always has been. Wait long, keep the hands back as long as possible and explode with the hands in a level swing.
Your cause and effect is bass ackwards.
The elbow slots because the handle is being torqued by the hands.
Your way describes bat drag.
quote:Originally posted by FlippJ:
I'm honestly trying to understand what is being said here so be patient.
We know you're trying to understand, Jason. And we can tell by your posting rate that you just have to have it.
And, we're very patient.
Tell us again what you think........then I'll tell you what I think......again.
Now that's funny.quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
We know you're trying to understand, Jason. And we can tell by your posting rate that you just have to have it.
Jason
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
Hold a bat and lower your back elbow to your side and guess what, the bat will go rear-ward.
Does it blur?
quote:Originally posted by LClifton:
Good bat path---Good swing.
Looks like the pitcher "hung" one.
look at the position of the back elbow at impact on this video and all the other successful ones, plus this young man has the raw power to go with it.
I guess we have differing views Chameleon. But try this, lower your back elbow without tilting the bat back. Now try supinating your top hand without lowering your elbow. In the clips the elbow goes and then the hands. Starting with the elbow lower lets the hands initiate. Some prefer the timing of the elbow up to get the running start that some have eluded to. But I do appreciate your evolved thinking about the hands doing much more than being along for the ride. The last minute movement of the wrist and hands is greatly overlooked in the swing, I believe we both have been in agreement there.
When the hands stay back the barrell works more rearward at go when the swing starts. If the hands shoot forward first the barrell still turns at a different position. Knowing the swing is supposed to start at go develops a visual. Knowing how the arms are supposed to work correctly when the swing starts helps create a visual. This starts the process of looking for ways to to better see what a good swing looks like. I think this describes a connected swing and a disconnected swing.Richard is seeing what the barrell does on good swings That start at go. So keeping the hands back at go creates this barrel effect.If the hands drive forward this changes the outcome. Is this correct?
Shocker,
Shocker,
Where the hands are is important.
But not as important as what they do.
But not as important as what they do.
Richard,
what your desribing is the hands being active at go applying force with body rotation. If this starts late with the hands the barrell turning is less effective. The right handed hitters barrell starts a right turn if bat starts flat. If the bat stays more upright the barrell move more towards the catcher. The strength in the hands are very important for this approach. What big leauge hitter doesn't have vice grip like strength in the hands? I think this is a key to a high level swing. I have seen the data on hand strength not being important but that's pure nonsense.
Shocker,
what your desribing is the hands being active at go applying force with body rotation. If this starts late with the hands the barrell turning is less effective. The right handed hitters barrell starts a right turn if bat starts flat. If the bat stays more upright the barrell move more towards the catcher. The strength in the hands are very important for this approach. What big leauge hitter doesn't have vice grip like strength in the hands? I think this is a key to a high level swing. I have seen the data on hand strength not being important but that's pure nonsense.
Shocker,
What direction?
Richard,
I assume your talking about the direction the bathead goes from a flat position. This will also work towards the catcher.
I assume your talking about the direction the bathead goes from a flat position. This will also work towards the catcher.
One important piece that has not been mentioned that is key to a good swing is simply this. Keep the barrel above your hands as long as possible. This will help you use your hands to their fullest potential and prevent you from casting. It is an aspect of the swing that is grossly under-taught, as are most of the aspects of the hands in the swing.
The position of the back elbow. Think of the fence drill
quote:Originally posted by Shocker:
Richard,
I assume your talking about the direction the bathead goes from a flat position. This will also work towards the catcher.
If it's already flat the bathead is moving towards the Catcher? I'm trying to visualize what you are saying. Do you have a video clip of that?
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
One important piece that has not been mentioned that is key to a good swing is simply this. Keep the barrel above your hands as long as possible. This will help you use your hands to their fullest potential and prevent you from casting. It is an aspect of the swing that is grossly under-taught, as are most of the aspects of the hands in the swing.
Wouldn't pitch location affect that some?
quote:Originally posted by Shocker:
Richard,
I assume your talking about the direction the bathead goes from a flat position. This will also work towards the catcher.
Not interested in the direction the bathead goes from a flat position.
I'm interested in what direction the hands turn the barrel at "go".
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
One important piece that has not been mentioned that is key to a good swing is simply this. Keep the barrel above your hands as long as possible. This will help you use your hands to their fullest potential and prevent you from casting. It is an aspect of the swing that is grossly under-taught, as are most of the aspects of the hands in the swing.
When can the barrel go under the ball and therefore the hands?
Because it does on almost every swing.
quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
One important piece that has not been mentioned that is key to a good swing is simply this. Keep the barrel above your hands as long as possible. This will help you use your hands to their fullest potential and prevent you from casting. It is an aspect of the swing that is grossly under-taught, as are most of the aspects of the hands in the swing.
Sheer nonsense. Impossible to do. Why would you want to do it? What would it achieve if it was possible? A gigantic step in the wrong direction.
quote:Originally posted by micmeister:quote:Originally posted by hsballcoach:
One important piece that has not been mentioned that is key to a good swing is simply this. Keep the barrel above your hands as long as possible. This will help you use your hands to their fullest potential and prevent you from casting. It is an aspect of the swing that is grossly under-taught, as are most of the aspects of the hands in the swing.
Wouldn't pitch location affect that some?
I think it would. Possibly even show a greater degree of the barrel being below the hands--as in this clip.
But I think I understand hscoach (maybe
)Many young hitters drop their hands, let the barrel "flop" down below then make a big loop back up with the barrel. The cue he describes may work for them.
It (the cue) says to me that the hands should maintain their position then execute the launch (from there) with no dropping (not to be confused with an adjustment)and then looping the bat back up.
Anyway, here's a low ball clip.
What happens if the wrists stay cocked, hinge angle is maintained? Does the barrel stay above the hands?
quote:Originally posted by LClifton:quote:Originally posted by micmeister:
Wouldn't pitch location affect that some?
I think it would. Possibly even show a greater degree of the barrel being below the hands--as in this clip.
But I think I understand hscoach (maybe
Many young hitters drop their hands, let the barrel "flop" down below then make a big loop back up with the barrel. The cue he describes may work for them.
It (the cue) says to me that the hands should maintain their position then execute the launch (from there) with no dropping (not to be confused with an adjustment)and then looping the bat back up.
Anyway, here's a low ball clip.
What happens if the wrists stay cocked, hinge angle is maintained? Does the barrel stay above the hands?
Why not just use this as your cue then? Why add the confusion?
Are you asking me or hscoach?
quote:Originally posted by LClifton:
Are you asking me or hscoach?
Neither, just wondering.
quote:Originally posted by LClifton:
Are you asking me or hscoach?
quote:=Mic
Neither, just wondering.
quote:Why add the confusion?
Clifton, I don't know you, but I have a question for you...
Why must you post so many quotes all the time?
Why all the drama?.....
Why must you post so many quotes all the time?
Why all the drama?.....
