Shift, Swing, Hip Turn

Quincy: Did you post this just to bait me?

First, stride and weight shift are NOT the same thing.

Second, as stated before your lower body and hips are what pull the bat through at maximum velocity. If hands go through first...no bat speed.

All of these videos show the lower half starting first and then the bat going through the zone

Here is a video posted by one of our members on another baseball site. I'll add it for discussion.



Quincy, when you say "swing," how are you defining that term? Are you addressing hand/arm movement?

I used to always say, "Hands first, hands last." By "hands first," I meant that in some way the hands have to move into what is now termed "connection." By "hands last," I meant that the hips have fired and the hands/shoulders follow.

Arguments?

Yes, I define 'swing' as the 'moment' when the hands and arms fire to the ball.

There is no doubt that many other muscles are also involved, but I try to keep it simple.

Lower body = stride or weight shift

Upper body = swing

Middle body = hip or waist turn

I liked the term 'body pivot' but that isn't simple enough in my view.

A Griffey clip would be a great demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t26oVYHGXH4&feature=related

Quincy, as you know, I don't agree with some of these ideas. When I think of the swing, I see the hands makes those movements you see, then I see them seek an area of "connection" and ride that point for a couple of frames along with the shoulder area. I see the hands get locked, the hips fire, then the upper body come along. I don't see much pause in this process but do note that there is point where the hips are ahead of the hands/shoulders. Finally, I see the hands leaving connection. There are many terms for this and some used in ways not intended by the creators of those terms. I wish I had the ability to post clips because I have some clips of side by sides of MLB players from front views and side views that would lend themselves to this argument.

BTW, I have a friend with his own server. Maybe I need to have him over, grill some brats and talk him into some free space.

Oh, if you look at the Upton clip provide above, you see the hips actually start to open prior to the front heel hitting the ground. Thoughts?

That is a great swing. I played with Justin in the Area Codes in cali when he was either 15 or 16 and he was probably the best hitter there. The kid is a freak.

That said, it looks to me as if his hips fire slightly before his hands. Quincy, what do you see?

Concerning the front heel as compared to the opening hip, this is the weak front side that I have mentioned previously.

It has been my view that the active or control phase of the swing ends as soon as the bat enters the zone.

From that point through contact, the next active phase is the slow down in the follow through.

Weight shifts, hands fire, hips turn.

Weight shift is obvious in that body weight is moving forwards to contact.

Hands fire to extension and contact. Once the hands and triceps fire, their job is done.

Hip turn is the shortest fastest phase in the swing. It is the axis turning or the pivot allowing the external weight to speed up in its path to contact.

This brings us back to the expression 'strong hands'. It takes strong hands to hold on to the bat at the speed we have generated.

It's a very fluid motion (smooth swing).

IN,

Watch for the hand flex, then see the hip start to open into the turn. One expression that we have seen here is the 'go' move. When the hands flex the 'go' precedes the hip.

As an example, when a batter checks his swing, the hips are not turning.

This is another reason why I am not a fan of the check swing. I would rather lengthen the 'See the ball" phase and at the same time minimize the 'Hit the ball" phase.

I still see the hips firing slightly before the hands.

Also, are you saying Justin Upton as a weak front side?

If you look at the upton video you will see the hands don't move forward until heel plant, the connection you speak of, I refer to slotting your elbow, your elbow will not slot unless your hips have created the space for that to happen.

We shouldn't think heel plant, but foot plant, as the most effective way is the ball of the foot planting. Thats why his front side is not week, because he isn't swinging from his heels. His hips and just about all hitters hips move or rotate before the hands come thru. Its the only way it works.
KISS, as has been mentioned many times here over the years. No need to dissect what is easily seen and known.

CoachB: I can't pause the video of Upton, but are his hips opening before the heel lands or are they just going forward, then as soon as the heel hits they begin to open? It all happens so quickly it is hard to tell which comes first without being able to pause and go frame by frame.

It seems to me that since Upton is on his toe, when he opens the foot up and sits the heel down, it may cause his front leg to begin to open, not necessarily his hip. His backside, from what I can see without frame by frame, definitely does not fire until the heel is down.

Let me know what you guys see with that front side: are the hips starting before the heel lands or does the angle his foot goes make his front leg change angles; not his hip.

When I'm observing video on a site, I put the cursor on some portion of a player's body. For example, front hipline and just below belt to have a couple of reference points. Then, I take a look. It seems that the hips are starting open before the heel hits. That is not something different than most MLB hitters and I don't think it makes them weak. I believe that if that forward movement is excessive then it becomes weeker. In viewing that on quicktime or RVP, that'd amount to about one frame at best from toe touch to heel plant. After you've put your cursor on his hipline, try putting it on his head. JMHO! Great discussion starting.

I definitely agree it doesn't make the front side weaker. It all happens simultaneously. Also, once the actual swing starts, the hips stop coming forward; so IMO he hips aren't "floating."

When I was younger, I worked out with one of the head hitting instructors for what was then the Montreal Expos. At the time, I started on my toe (much like Upton, only higher). His response to me was the farther I am up on my toe, the farther the heel has to go before I was able to start my swing. This was part of my problem of getting my hands through on pitches inside. He wanted me to try to get off my toe if possible (which took many repetitions because that is a habit). When I did, I was able to get to pitches much easier and wait longer before "starting" my swing.

I think that the heel is kind what starts our swing to the extent that it has to be on the ground before we can start. I think for Upton, he times his pitches so that once the heel is on the way down, he is deciding whether or not he is swinging. I would like to see a video of him taking a pitch.

Weak front side infers that the weight is mainly on the back leg when the hands fire.

Strong front side infers that the weight is mainly on the front leg when the hands fire.

Kind of hints at differences in Linear vs Rotational Hitting.

Raises that dreaded one legged batter question.

Can a batter with one leg swing a bat?

IMO, weak side infers there is a leak in the swing, ie your hips are leaking, causing you to lose power; instead of hitting against the front side.

Where in ANY good swing do you see the weight being on the front leg? You hit against the front leg. The weight should be distributed about 60/40. If you are hitting with the weight on the front foot, you cannot stay behind the baseball and drive it with power. Hitting with the weight forward is being fooled.

Even Ichiro and Robinson Cano, who look like the float, hit against the front side. Once their heel lands, and they begin their swing, all of their weight stops shifting.

If this were true, how could a player hit a home run with his back foot off the ground?

http://web.baseballhalloffame.org/media/player/mp_tpl.j...mv&type=v_free&_mp=1

Quincy: He most certainly does not start his hands with his weight on the front foot. It is hard to put into words how this all works because I am not big into all of the different hitting philosophies. I do know your front leg stays solid, and you drive your back side into the front...this is what creates the torque to hit home run. They hit homeruns with their back foot off the ground because of the torque created...not because they were on their front foot.

You must have been a star in the debate club.

Does this mean that the 60/40 weight ballance does not hold true in all cases?

If his back foot is in the air at contact, your theory loses credibility as authoritative.

As a matter of fact, he does start his swing as his back foot starts to rise so his weight is all front side.

Torque is not at issue since there is no external force to center.

Notice that his hands start forward before hip turn.

Quincy: His weight is not on the front side: Again, it is being push into the front side...but when you state hitting off of your front foot, I picture lunging or reaching.

60/40 is a nice balanced position, IMO..if you were hitting with the weight on the front foot, the upper body would be over the front foot as well...I believe we both can agree his upper body is behind his front leg.

Still, I believe you can ask any person on this board and they will tell you it goes hips and then hands.

Also, I don't understand your torque statement....can you please clarify?

Torque is a turning or twisting external force to center.

In the swing, all force comes from center exerted externally in a circular motion.

Some people think that the 'conservation of angular momentum' is what causes bat speed. It is this misperception that gave rise to the idea of torque in the swing.