Good Evening BlueDog 
stop never stop but pause at the top of the load in a rhythmic type of hesitation would be a better description, IMHO peace
It's in the video clips of the great hitters.
It can also be said that the tempo of the swing in the methodical movement of hands, arms and torso are creating a massive amount of energy against the rigid frontside from the coil in the torque in the load at the top before the blur occurs when bat changes direction after the pause and sprints toward contact. Agree? peace
It can also be said that the tempo of the swing in the methodical movement of hands, arms and torso are creating a massive amount of energy against the rigid frontside from the coil in the torque in the load at the top before the blur occurs when bat changes direction after the pause and sprints toward contact. Agree? peace
In scouting, we call your description, "dead bat" which means the hitter doesn't get the bat started.
Meaning, there is no momentum or continuous rhythm in the bat and body movements.
IMHO, everything has to work to together and not stop and start. It must be an effort of one continuing act of momentum or better yet, motion. This is not to say you couldn't get away with this "start and stop" approach in hitting mechanics enough to accomplish a few higher level swings, but just not the better option for a flexible body and not the desired continuous motion creating momentum. Agree? peace
Meaning, there is no momentum or continuous rhythm in the bat and body movements.
IMHO, everything has to work to together and not stop and start. It must be an effort of one continuing act of momentum or better yet, motion. This is not to say you couldn't get away with this "start and stop" approach in hitting mechanics enough to accomplish a few higher level swings, but just not the better option for a flexible body and not the desired continuous motion creating momentum. Agree? peace
quote:BlueDog, I challenge you to apply the following question to scientific method this spring with a control group if you have time: Does body strength supercede whiplike linear actions in the baseball swing?
Shep, body strength can be defined in different ways.....So can whiplike linear actions.....
I'm not a believer in strength.....I do believe in flexibilty and stretchability......
Okay, what part of the other post do you agree with "partially" ? peace
quote:I'm not a believer in strength.....I do believe in flexibilty and stretchability......
Brother, I am in total agreement with that statement! As wayback said earlier in this thread, a moment of clarity. Just look at my bodytype in that pic I post in this thread and see how skinny I was. I was strong though but not with artificial hormones
It was all plyometrics and stretching for me, for sure. Most of the others that were selected before me were all built like tanks in 1988 and 1989! Incredible peacequote:Shep, do you consider the purpose of the stride is to produce momentum?
Yes I do, however, this is a trick question BlueDog because momentum can be attained without gigantic strides. peace bro
Momentum can be produced by building up a great deal of energy in the coil and torque, not necessarily dependent on a "stride". peace
quote:I don't believe in the rigid front side.....I believe in balancing to the middle.....
BlueDog, is this what you meant last year in our discussions when you placed emphasis on the center? I have to say, that description of remaining balanced in the center can also be applied against a firm frontside. At least, this is what I did as a hitter. The center to me was more involved with maintaining nice tight abs with a strong lowerhalve to maintain that balance against the frontside when coming forward by turning in rotation. peace
quote:Momentum can be produced by building up a great deal of energy in the coil and torque, not necessarily dependent on a "stride".
I suppose we do agree on this too, to a certain extent.
peacePS(Enjoyed our discussion tonight BlueDog
Very good points in this thread. Let's hope the younger players here benefit from such in depth analysis about the swing.
It is always interesting to see top instructors exchange knowledge and "tweak" the swing into perfection.
Keep it up guys, good to see you giving and not just taking
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
It is always interesting to see top instructors exchange knowledge and "tweak" the swing into perfection.
Keep it up guys, good to see you giving and not just taking
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
quote:I can load, stop, and then swing and hit with a high level swing
Not the fastball you ain't
quote:do you consider the purpose of the stride is to produce momentum?
Not necessarily, proper weight shift and hip coil produces momentum.
Bluedog,
I firmly believe a high level swing is comprised of continuous and simutaneous movements. With all due respect the word STOP does not fit into that equation. Peace.
I firmly believe a high level swing is comprised of continuous and simutaneous movements. With all due respect the word STOP does not fit into that equation. Peace.
quote:An example: You can produce momentum in the stride if you want....However, it's not necessary.....
I totally agree here, it's a matter of preference. Most hitters produce momentum via the stride (weight shift) and have minimal hip coil however there are others that rely more on hip coil to generate momentum and less stride. With the later group hip coil is much more discernible ala Wright & Puljos to name a few.
Back to topic. Long through the zone is a cue that helps you keep your hands inside the baseball. If you tell a hitter to keep the barrel of the bat through the zone as long as possible, this keeps you from rolling your top hand to soon and coming around the baseball. People who don't do this have problems opening their frontside to soon and have pull swings on balls in any location.
quote:If the front foot comes down early on offspeed, I can assure you the continuous cycle of this momentum of which you speak is broken.......And, they wait to unload......Momentum is fleeting.....
I knew you would use offspeed pitch to make your point hence my previous point of "not the fastball you ain't"....
Anyway back to the offspeed pitch.. Yes hitters will get fooled and completely disconnect. However, bad example because if you continually disconnect on offspeed pitches your back down to the minors... In making proper adjustment on offspeed, the hitter "SITS" which essentially slows down that momentum (i.e. momentary down shift)...not STOP/START...
Lastly, let me reiterate that you ain't hitting the fastball at the highest level enough to hang around if your completely disconnecting (stopping/starting) Peace Sir
I don't see the sit of which you speak.......Not anymore than the normal sit.....IMO, there is more to it than that.....
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=89q1...&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=13&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro;jsessionid=89q1...&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
http://imageevent.com/siggy/hitting/pro?p=13&n=1&m=12&c=4&l=0&w=4&s=0&z=9
Just a rookie here trying to understand, but on the offspeed pitch, does Manny's change in posture help with the adjustment, or is that due to pitch location? What about carrying the middle just a bit farther before unloading into a softer front side?
Am I close or way off? Where do you see the differences BlueDog?
Am I close or way off? Where do you see the differences BlueDog?
The "sit" when done properly isn't that noticable. It is more of a muscle tension than a real "sit." It isn't such an action that demands the buckling of the knees. In hitting the change or the curve, the hitter had to ensure that they don't get disconnected and/or their weight moving over their front foot while waiting on the ball to get to the plate. Therefore, the "sit" or tension prevents that. It still allows for connection and the ability to drive the ball if tilt is maintained. JMHO!
BTW, we teach this and practice driving the curve to right and the change at the pitcher. Today in our camp, we practiced hitting the curve with kids from 4th grade on. I was amazed that they did so well.
BTW, we teach this and practice driving the curve to right and the change at the pitcher. Today in our camp, we practiced hitting the curve with kids from 4th grade on. I was amazed that they did so well.
BlueDog,
After re-reading your posts several times, I wish I could say the light bulb clicked on, but unfortunately it's still flickering.
So, if you don't mind, here's a few more questions.
Is this "delay" that you refer to only present when the front foot gets down too early?
And why is it down too early? Because it is timed for the pitchers best fastball, but something slower is now coming at you?
Is this "delay" present in the Bonds clip? If so, then I really am lost.
I think I can understand the delay for adjusting to something other than the best fastball, but if it's something more than that, I'm all ears if you feel like trying to explain it further.
After re-reading your posts several times, I wish I could say the light bulb clicked on, but unfortunately it's still flickering.
So, if you don't mind, here's a few more questions.
Is this "delay" that you refer to only present when the front foot gets down too early?
And why is it down too early? Because it is timed for the pitchers best fastball, but something slower is now coming at you?
Is this "delay" present in the Bonds clip? If so, then I really am lost.
I think I can understand the delay for adjusting to something other than the best fastball, but if it's something more than that, I'm all ears if you feel like trying to explain it further.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
In this clip, I see the bat barrel reversing direction as soon as the front toe touches the ground......
In most cases, the point at which the hitter is committed to the swing is when the front HEEL is planted firmly.
That's when you start counting frames to see if a guy has a five-frame swing or not.
I don't think I added this and so, that "sit" or tension has to be what Bluedog refers to as "center" and it has to be incorporated with tilt. If not, the load is lost. With the loss of load will also go connection, power, balance and bat speed. JMHO!
naw you didn't Dog
Be more specific, I am having trouble seeing the forest...peace shep
Be more specific, I am having trouble seeing the forest...peace shep
Pause is different than stop. Hesitation is pause not a stop. You cannot just stop and start a swing at will w/o losing momentum, batspeed and power. No way it can happen, physics tells us that is an impossibility BlueDog. Believe me my brother, I would not lead you or anybody else wrong on this point of discussion in this thread. Take my word on this BD, the swing is a continuous action that "DOES NOT STOP" in the middle and start back up again. peace shep
BlueDog,
I am not all-knowing and certainly not the perfect hitting machine that works like a robot. I can only speak from my own experiences as hitter and student.
If you have some splaining to do, please do...it wouldn't be the first time you made me see something I didn't see before
Going back to edit my last post a little peace shep
I am not all-knowing and certainly not the perfect hitting machine that works like a robot. I can only speak from my own experiences as hitter and student.
If you have some splaining to do, please do...it wouldn't be the first time you made me see something I didn't see before
Going back to edit my last post a little peace shep
BlueDog,
Don't make me beg now Come on back my friend, I just got back in town this evening. We're all ears and waiting for the splaining you say you have on your start stop and re-start theory peace shep
Don't make me beg now
Come on back my friend, I just got back in town this evening. We're all ears and waiting for the splaining you say you have on your start stop and re-start theory peace shep
Shep,
BlueDog's knowledge of swing mechanics couldn't possibly advocate the "start, stop, re-start" in the way that it seems like you are thinking of it.
Quit p!ssing him off. I want to hear his explanations.
BlueDog's knowledge of swing mechanics couldn't possibly advocate the "start, stop, re-start" in the way that it seems like you are thinking of it.
Quit p!ssing him off. I want to hear his explanations.
Come on fellas! Let's keep it civil. I believe Blue means start and stop at contact, which I too, have a flickering lightbulb WMA. I would like to hear BlueDog's explanation for the sake of hearing out all sides. BlueDog???
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
You simply load longer on off speed pitches.
If you aren't in control of the unload you won't understand this.
If you aren't in control of the unload you won't understand this.
Just slow it down and build up the energy of the core while loading. Pitch recognition is number one before any of these other pieces can fill the puzzle. Chameleon is right about one key part of the puzzle, the body just takes longer to load on offspeed pitches. Once pitch recognition has taken place through the eyes and mind of the hitter, the body registers the timing of the accelerated swing from top of load to contact, while unloading. The slower arrival of slower pitches will cause the upper half to remain back a little longer, even though the lower half has already led out. The only difference is with a fastball, this all occurs at a more accelerated rate of speed with the accelerated motion of the lever(bat) creating a force to act upon a moving object. This process slows down with an off speed pitch to a low speed of accelerated motion with the lever(bat) gathering energy as it moves the core of the rotational swing into position, slower but with a deliberate gathering of energy, which is even more powerful, if done correctly. The unload of upper half should remain the same even though the lower half of body slows down in loading process.
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
quote:Originally posted by Chameleon:
You simply load longer on off speed pitches.
If you aren't in control of the unload you won't understand this.
Would you then say that this is the creation of tension and tilt to maintain load? Would you feel comfortable with the "sit" explaination? In 4 tenths of a second or less, the process to hit has began. Now, the load process. Would you say that this could be explained with the creation of more tension without tilt?
quote:I don't think that the bat speed being generated should depend on the pitch thrown. Batspeed should always be as fast as the athlete is capable of generating.
This is the description that I subscribe. Very good Brn2Hit! The unload should always remain at a constant rate of speed creating batspeed. Only the body "core" that controls the lever should slow down in the loading process for timing purposes.
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
One question I've heard numerous times amongst the evaluators is the following: Does the hitter keep his hands back when fooled on off-speed pitches?
Professional hitters in AA and AAA might get fooled, but, the pitcher better "duck" if the hitters' hands stay back because these more advanced hitters are very strong and will hit it back a wee bit harder than than Verlander can throw it! Advanced Hitters: 110+ mph peace shep
Professional hitters in AA and AAA might get fooled, but, the pitcher better "duck" if the hitters' hands stay back because these more advanced hitters are very strong and will hit it back a wee bit harder than than Verlander can throw it! Advanced Hitters: 110+ mph peace
shep
BlueDog,
I apologize.
Sincerely,
Shep
I apologize.
Sincerely,
Shep
quote:.......I, also believe they balance to the middle of their body, and they use posture adjustments to help them do so......If they reach with the arms and hands, then the middle needs to come with them.....If not, they get terribly disconnected and balance is compromised as they will balance to the ground and not to the middle of their body....
Bluedog, do you believe that posture gets to where it needs to be and is basically a byproduct of the hands/arms finding the swing plane, or do you believe posture requires conscious movement/adjustment on the part of the hitter?
quote:One question I've heard numerous times amongst the evaluators is the following: Does the hitter keep his hands back when fooled on off-speed pitches?
I believe sitting is the delay mechanism that facilitates that process and minimizes disconnecton on offspeed pitches. JMHO
Don't beg Blue. If he wants to come back he will. The show will go on with others here. My gut tells me that BlueDog may have backed himself in a corner and not up for challenge from others
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
Longtime Player and now Longtime Observer
Sitting on a pitch is only waiting if it is static. I don't believe that is what a lot are saying. Personally, I'm talking about a moment where you "sit" or tense and do so in a dynamic movement. I don't know if I'd go so far as to say tuck the butt but I also would never suggest a stop.
Per Bluedog, I've known him long enough to know that he isn't feeling "backed into a corner." Rather, Bluedog is they type of person that has a lot to share but won't force his beliefs on anyone. When and if it is suggested that his contributions ruffle feathers, he simply pulls out rather than try to force his belief system on others. Personally, I consider Bluedog a friend. I know that he will contribute to those threads where he has something significant to say. In other words, he doesn't have to feel that he is the alpha and omega of hitting and must be involved in every thread. If a topic comes up that picks his interest, he'll post. I'm counting on it!
Per Bluedog, I've known him long enough to know that he isn't feeling "backed into a corner." Rather, Bluedog is they type of person that has a lot to share but won't force his beliefs on anyone. When and if it is suggested that his contributions ruffle feathers, he simply pulls out rather than try to force his belief system on others. Personally, I consider Bluedog a friend. I know that he will contribute to those threads where he has something significant to say. In other words, he doesn't have to feel that he is the alpha and omega of hitting and must be involved in every thread. If a topic comes up that picks his interest, he'll post. I'm counting on it!
quote:"Sitting" to me sounds like waiting...and I don't believe that you can "wait" to get started. I believe that hitters begin to load as the pitchers arm comes to the release point. Once that has occurred you can not be "waiting". You need to be able to explode on the fastball away that you are setting up for. React explosively if the pitcher misses (makes a mistake) with a fastball middle in.
You can't be "waiting" or you will get burned.
What is needed, imho, is the ability to adjust while you are loading, which isn't really "waiting" at all, as you are in motion. As you are loading, you are reading the pitch and making adjustments physically and mentally as to what you believe you see coming at you. Again, I don't believe that you can effectively make this adjustment with consistent excellent results as you are accelerating through the hitting zone. A "pause" or "stop", or hesitation, during the load may be necessary if you are reading off speed. Again, I believe that the "toe to heel plant" also comes into play to control and focus the momentum generated by your body as the hitter prepares for contact.
I don't think that you can just "wait" on a breaking ball and have success at hitting a fastball.
A major key, and an area that seems to be more intuitive and an either "you have it or you don't", is the ability to really read the pitch so you understand what your body needs to accomplish to either take a ball (or strike) or drive the pitch where it was meant to go. This I believe is truly the skill that separates players who are able to play at each subsequent level.
Brn2Hit,
I endorse this writing and feel you are knowledgeable about the baseball swing. This is very good and seems to also back up some of the other baseball professionals' writngs.
Longtime Player now Longtime Observer
Good post Born to Hit!! Bluedog's not back yet???
Agree with you CoachB25, BlueDog is a good guy with good intentions and contributes a lot of helpful points involving the mechanics of the baseball swing.
C'mon Blue, you know I was just messing with ya'
You're input is valued and needed here at HSBBW messageboard.
Peace my FRIEND and BROTHER,
shep
Agree with you CoachB25, BlueDog is a good guy with good intentions and contributes a lot of helpful points involving the mechanics of the baseball swing.
C'mon Blue, you know I was just messing with ya'
You're input is valued and needed here at HSBBW messageboard.
Peace my FRIEND and BROTHER,
shep
