What about this one. It looks more rotational, I think that I could even draw a "box" or "triangle"
http://www.youthbaseballcoaching.com/mpg/L._Gonzalez04.mpeg.
I don't want to disparage any hitter, especially Rose. However, the average (average) major league hitter has a slugging average of about .425-.430. Rose was BELOW average (just over .400). The AVERAGE major league hitter hits 33% of hits for extra bases. Rose was just over 20%.
I don't believe all hitters have to be power hitters to be good. However, he wasn't even an average power guy. Probably because he didn't get into a ball.
Shep, I disagree with a lot on this thread. I think a lot of those guys would still be good that were mentioned earlier. I just think that a player can GET BY with not striding now.
The difference in the game is that steroids, current knowledge of nutrition, training techniques, etc. have allowed us to have a generation of hitters who don't have to stride into a ball to hit it hard.
There are several premises that are off. (1) Power is not enhanced by striding. It is, always was. When you see the homerun derbys even the still heads are coming out. (2) The size of the average player doesn't matter. Size is what I'm talking about when I say steroid use, nutrition, and training techniques are so much more advanced. (3) Those who stride and have head movement have slow bats. The head movement just doesn't matter so long as it is before the rotation phase of the swing. I've used a radar gun to measure the exit speed of a ball off a tee (from a dead stop) and the linear guy doesn't necessarily have the slower bat. The reason so many think they do is because the little guy HAS TO STRIDE to be able to play. The little guy generally has a slower bat, not because he is linear but because he is small. (Please don't anyone argue that smaller players should have the same bat speed as a bigger player and would if they had the proper technique.)
One key to hitting at the next level is to have a bat speed that matches the ball speed. If you can swing at 95 mph from 4.5' (arc length) and the pitcher throws at 95 mph from a release point of say 55', the ball has to get in the air before the swing can happen. A slow bat obviously has less read time, and as Shep pointed out, would be likely to be a "guess hitter."
This is a great thread though. I am going to guess that if steroid use (and other performance enhancing drugs) really gets tested, you will see more strides in the bigs.
The average major league pitcher gives up just over 1 hit per inning, 1/3 walk per inning and 3/4 Ks per inning. Power must be in the line-up statistically or runners will be stranded. It is size, not rotational hitting that has caused the power surge. Rotational hitting has become predominant because size has become easier to develop and power has come IN SPITE of a still head.
I enjoy these discussions. They are valuable and the best baseball people are definitely contributing. Just offering the other side.
I don't believe all hitters have to be power hitters to be good. However, he wasn't even an average power guy. Probably because he didn't get into a ball.
Shep, I disagree with a lot on this thread. I think a lot of those guys would still be good that were mentioned earlier. I just think that a player can GET BY with not striding now.
The difference in the game is that steroids, current knowledge of nutrition, training techniques, etc. have allowed us to have a generation of hitters who don't have to stride into a ball to hit it hard.
There are several premises that are off. (1) Power is not enhanced by striding. It is, always was. When you see the homerun derbys even the still heads are coming out. (2) The size of the average player doesn't matter. Size is what I'm talking about when I say steroid use, nutrition, and training techniques are so much more advanced. (3) Those who stride and have head movement have slow bats. The head movement just doesn't matter so long as it is before the rotation phase of the swing. I've used a radar gun to measure the exit speed of a ball off a tee (from a dead stop) and the linear guy doesn't necessarily have the slower bat. The reason so many think they do is because the little guy HAS TO STRIDE to be able to play. The little guy generally has a slower bat, not because he is linear but because he is small. (Please don't anyone argue that smaller players should have the same bat speed as a bigger player and would if they had the proper technique.)
One key to hitting at the next level is to have a bat speed that matches the ball speed. If you can swing at 95 mph from 4.5' (arc length) and the pitcher throws at 95 mph from a release point of say 55', the ball has to get in the air before the swing can happen. A slow bat obviously has less read time, and as Shep pointed out, would be likely to be a "guess hitter."
This is a great thread though. I am going to guess that if steroid use (and other performance enhancing drugs) really gets tested, you will see more strides in the bigs.
The average major league pitcher gives up just over 1 hit per inning, 1/3 walk per inning and 3/4 Ks per inning. Power must be in the line-up statistically or runners will be stranded. It is size, not rotational hitting that has caused the power surge. Rotational hitting has become predominant because size has become easier to develop and power has come IN SPITE of a still head.
I enjoy these discussions. They are valuable and the best baseball people are definitely contributing. Just offering the other side.
ok, what is the ideal stride?? pick it up, set it down, 9-13 inches, inward towards backside MI/plate (Jeter), long (Will Clark) or back (bagwell). What do you guys teach?
So, are you saying Pujols is an average and ordinary hitter?
These threads are too quiet!
These threads are too quiet!
The photos of those three hitters above sure look ugly...
When I post about a swing I only post about my Son's swing, that is the swing I know best. He hits with a closed firm frontside. If that front knee breaks down it is somthing that we work at correcting right away.
He had that problem at Jupiter, and we determined that he was reaching for the outside pitch instead of letting it get deeper so he could maintain his solid front side. When his frontside broke down he felt that his hands were slower, and could not identify why. But as his front side broke down, his body would slide forward, slowing down his hands.
When I post about a swing I only post about my Son's swing, that is the swing I know best. He hits with a closed firm frontside. If that front knee breaks down it is somthing that we work at correcting right away.
He had that problem at Jupiter, and we determined that he was reaching for the outside pitch instead of letting it get deeper so he could maintain his solid front side. When his frontside broke down he felt that his hands were slower, and could not identify why. But as his front side broke down, his body would slide forward, slowing down his hands.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
Here are three front-side hitters. What do you think about this style of hitting board? Is it correct or incorrect? BTW, these were all Major League players. There is a huge difference in hitting against a solid front side and lunging into the front side with almost all the weight forward on front side. Any thoughts? peace Shep
I have seen this before in guys like Pujols and Jeter, but it's usually when they were fooled.
Derek Jerer Strike Out...
Albert Pujols Pop Out...
I find it interesting that good hitters' swings get very Linear (e.g. very arm-y) when they are fooled by off-speed pitches.
Awesome
words, phrases, film, studies, physics, and experience is something that a lot of us have...The main question is can you teach people the elite swing. Are you going to tell a 10 year old that you have to position your upper core in the same plane of the ball because your brain is triggering the hand eye sensors. People can post their glory days and all the pictures they want. Can you teach a 10 year old how to do the ELITE SWING that everyone is trying to explain. It is all about getting students to feel what you are trying to describe. Can you get a student to understand that the hands do not move the bat from the loaded position to the inside part of the ball.
Just remember this. If you were to put your arms to your side and I said move you hands to an object 3feet in front of you...how close could you get your hands to that object. JUST YOUR HANDS. Now grab a bat. Start your hands in the top of the arc. (which if you stopped it at that point in the hitting process you would have to regain momentum) Now take your hands and move them circular, linear, or how ever you want to move them and try to get to that same object. How close can you get to that object. If you can still tell me that it is the hands moving that bat close to the object please explain.
Rotational limitations...Or did they just not want to create it. Power is created by the core. When you create max rotation with the core and max rotation with the upper core, it creates the ultimate double pendulium effect. Leverage, levers, one part helping move the other....and at the end is the wip effect. You can take a wip and "wip" it aggressively with your entire arm for a devistating blow at the end, or you can just use your wrist and still get some snap. You must involve more on one and less on the other. So what if they just wanted to get a little snap. Have you ever watched Jeter take BP. 1st round oppo, inside outs...2nd round sprays the ball with sceaming line drives...3rd round he hits jacks. What does he do in a game.....
Shep, Shep, Shep,
I just want to say thanks. Hitting involves so many things, that a lack of understanding of one ingredient makes a player close....yet, so far.
After spending way too much time (atleast according to my wife) cramming my aging brain, I finally got it. I freakin got it.
I couldn't put my finger on an adjustment needed. I've re-read your posts over and over. And, there it was. The worst part is, it all now seems so easy and effortless.
Expectations for Wayback, Jr just got raised. Uh oh!
Thanks. You will always have our utmost respect.
I just want to say thanks. Hitting involves so many things, that a lack of understanding of one ingredient makes a player close....yet, so far.
After spending way too much time (atleast according to my wife) cramming my aging brain, I finally got it. I freakin got it.
I couldn't put my finger on an adjustment needed. I've re-read your posts over and over. And, there it was. The worst part is, it all now seems so easy and effortless.
Expectations for Wayback, Jr just got raised. Uh oh!
Thanks. You will always have our utmost respect.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
Good points to ponder about ability to teach for sure though because many can't teach
Have a good day board and peace to all,
Shep
Shep, I've found through time that the ability to teach is a quality that many if not most baseball coaches and experts believe that they possess. In many cases, such is not the case. I've also have my opinions about those that profess to be the knowitalls of any profession. The best I know in the coaching ranks are those same people that remain humble and constantly seek more knowledge. JMHO!
Finally, I can name several, and I'm equally sure that you can as well, experts that use video, drawn lines etc. to argue their points when those same tools are really being used to promote agendas and or untruths about the swing.
I really appreciate your work in this thread. Very enlightning and easy to read.
There has been some great information given in this thread. I have read it all and enjoyed reading it. Here is something that has not been discussed yet. (Levels). As kids get older the pitching gets better. The bats get heavier and the velocity increases. The players that work at developing the core strength and overall physical strength to match the velocity increases all the while maintaining a sound swing approach will be the ones that have success. I see so many times kids that lack the physical strength to match the velocity and the swing breaks down in an attempt to "catch up". And I see the elite players that have the ability to dial it up when they need to without breaking down in swing mechanics. (Your thoughts).
Coach May - YOUR TYPICAL EXCELLENCE! Yes, conducive to any higher level swing is the ability to use the core better than most. My DD hits an awful lot. She hit so much the other day that she experienced stomach cramps. Using the core is not easy to learn but the results are extremely valuable. Weight training plyometrics are both essentials to developing that core. Tabatas or like exercises are also beneficial. One of the first purchases I made when I became a head coach was the medicine balls. We have literally dozens. We have them all the way from 4 lbs. to 18 lbs. We use them in all types of ways. I think measurements in our strength is directly related to our success at the plate. JMHO!
Coach May, you've hit my nail on the head. Wayback's problem was a change in mechanics. Though he was a good gap hitter as a younger player, he became a power hitter at the age of 16. Of course, that newly found power brought the desire to repeat the trot, and changed him to a dead pull hitter in games.
His problem wasn't lack of power or heavy bat, his problem was the need to show his power. BP's were often homerun derby time. He had all the ingredients of a great swing, strong athletic kid, with great balance, core rotation, and generated tons of bat speed. But, he became somewhat locked into the the swing that he worked on, and was not making adjustments.
Pitchers got better as he has moved up. The only inside fast balls are usually mistakes, and rarely still in the ball park. His swing broke down on off speed and anything low & away. It often looked like he was swinging at pitches that weren't there. He was swinging middle-in on pitches middle-away. He became easy to pitch to. A mistake hitter.
He'd try to hit oppo, but usually was just reaching for the ball. The end result was he was out in front on anything middle-away, going around the ball, rolling his wrists and grounding out. Why pitch him inside, he wouldn't make the adjustment. As Shep would say if he saw him: He didn't maintain the box and he didn't make the adjustment with posture and spinal tilt.
I believe kids want to hit oppo, but too often are told only to "let the ball travel" and "stay inside the ball". I know in my son's case, he reached for the ball, robbing him of power. The visual "how" was missing to maintain his power.
Having worked on the "box" and "tilt" portions, it's great to see the power go the other way. It seems so easy, yet so productive that it's unbelievable. It's like the Holy Grail.
It took a "teacher" of hitting to break it down for us from beginning to end so we could find the fix. Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees. Thanks Shep.
His problem wasn't lack of power or heavy bat, his problem was the need to show his power. BP's were often homerun derby time. He had all the ingredients of a great swing, strong athletic kid, with great balance, core rotation, and generated tons of bat speed. But, he became somewhat locked into the the swing that he worked on, and was not making adjustments.
Pitchers got better as he has moved up. The only inside fast balls are usually mistakes, and rarely still in the ball park. His swing broke down on off speed and anything low & away. It often looked like he was swinging at pitches that weren't there. He was swinging middle-in on pitches middle-away. He became easy to pitch to. A mistake hitter.
He'd try to hit oppo, but usually was just reaching for the ball. The end result was he was out in front on anything middle-away, going around the ball, rolling his wrists and grounding out. Why pitch him inside, he wouldn't make the adjustment. As Shep would say if he saw him: He didn't maintain the box and he didn't make the adjustment with posture and spinal tilt.
I believe kids want to hit oppo, but too often are told only to "let the ball travel" and "stay inside the ball". I know in my son's case, he reached for the ball, robbing him of power. The visual "how" was missing to maintain his power.
Having worked on the "box" and "tilt" portions, it's great to see the power go the other way. It seems so easy, yet so productive that it's unbelievable. It's like the Holy Grail.
It took a "teacher" of hitting to break it down for us from beginning to end so we could find the fix. Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees. Thanks Shep.
Shep, agreed in both cases about barring of arm. Do you think in these cases it allowed them to pull (or go middle) with a pitch that otherwise is normally an oppo situation. Looks like the barring, or lengthening of the arms, allowed them to get the barrel out there.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:Tilt w/ matching plane at contact. Front arm also bars/straightens quickly which also indicates a long swing to and thru.
To his credit, the pitch looks low and away, which could help to explain some of the barring of the front arm. He had to go a long way to get to that ball.
This is a great example of how to cover the strike zone via tilt/posture.
As an aside, the pitch had some screwball movement to it. Maybe a circle change.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:Front arm still bars/straightens too soon which indicates a long swing to zone and through zone.
He'll be okay with Merv in SD though. peace Russ
I'm not so sure if the front arm barring is bad in this case. He had to golf it because the pitch was down and in.
This is a good example of what a good hitter can do with a pitch that's down and in.
Mike Piazza
Ken Griffey
Michael Young
Here are three great hitters who bar their lead arm. In fact, most major league hitters will bar their arm on pitches that are middle to away. Arm bar is something that many scouts decided years ago was a bad thing to do, but in reality, that is wrong. I have hundreds of clips of major leaguers from Ruth to the present day stars and can find most of them barring their lead arm if I get the right swing.
It is not a hitting fault. It is an incorrect scouting tale that many believe.
Ken Griffey
Michael Young
Here are three great hitters who bar their lead arm. In fact, most major league hitters will bar their arm on pitches that are middle to away. Arm bar is something that many scouts decided years ago was a bad thing to do, but in reality, that is wrong. I have hundreds of clips of major leaguers from Ruth to the present day stars and can find most of them barring their lead arm if I get the right swing.
It is not a hitting fault. It is an incorrect scouting tale that many believe.
thats a very interesting statement BBSCOUT. when looking at that clip, my first thought was why not drive that pitch away instead of hook it?? it too agree arm barring is almost a must to hit that middle/away pitch as you stated.
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
Arm bar is something that many scouts decided years ago was a bad thing to do, but in reality, that is wrong...It is not a hitting fault. It is an incorrect scouting tale that many believe.
Why do people think that barring the front arm is bad?
quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
Here are three great hitters who bar their lead arm. In fact, most major league hitters will bar their arm on pitches that are middle to away.
Here are some photos of Pujols with a barred front arm hitting home runs and singles.
Home Run...
Home Run...
Single...
Single...
quote:Originally posted by thepainguy:quote:Originally posted by bbscout:
Arm bar is something that many scouts decided years ago was a bad thing to do, but in reality, that is wrong...It is not a hitting fault. It is an incorrect scouting tale that many believe.
Why do people think that barring the front arm is bad?
Because they have not watched lots of video of the swing. Heck, people say to swing down too.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:
Barring the lead arm is usually an adjustment the body has to make to reach hittable pitches without the frontside breaking down by reaching too far on outside pitches; also, the adjustment the body has to make in order to reach low, low-middle and low-away pitches.
I agree, based on what I see in the Pujols stills and the clips. It's what you have to do to get to a ball that's low and outside.
Certainly we can all agree that the arm bar isn't pretty. It also isn't necessarily a necessity to hit that outside pitch. Generally, MLB players are turn and burn. In other words, they have such outstanding reactions that the ball is barely out of the pitchers hand when they have made so many determinations about the pitch as well as starting the swing process. At times, they become disconnected at times, they have poor tilt and at times they bar the arm and produce an less than optimal swing. At those times when the hitter does made the right judgment on location and allow that ball to get over the white of the plate, before contact, they stay connected and typically drive the ball to the power gap or most certainly the opposite field. JMHO!
Shep, I would assume that along with with good posture, the timing of the barring determines it's effect.
Late barring to extend through the point of contact, or late extension to make contact with outside pitch would still allow bat speed.
Early barring would hinder the swing, regardless of all else being done (ie posture, rotation, etc).
Looking at the pictures, late being defined relative to the time of contact. Piazza is barred, but that ball is getting pretty close to the zone. Any contact will likely be middle to oppo. Barring that early in the swing on an inside pitch, he'd probably be jammed or miss altogether.
Make sense?
Late barring to extend through the point of contact, or late extension to make contact with outside pitch would still allow bat speed.
Early barring would hinder the swing, regardless of all else being done (ie posture, rotation, etc).
Looking at the pictures, late being defined relative to the time of contact. Piazza is barred, but that ball is getting pretty close to the zone. Any contact will likely be middle to oppo. Barring that early in the swing on an inside pitch, he'd probably be jammed or miss altogether.
Make sense?
Did anyone take a good look at the three clips BBScout posted or the several pictures Painguy posted?
I think those pictures and most all hitting clips I see are showing the same thing.
I think those pictures and most all hitting clips I see are showing the same thing.
It's my first shot at the Big's here, but the rookie has to step up eventually.
I see a lot of common things.
Looks like firm from side (front leg rigid, slightly closed front foot and leg angling back and up at 45 +/- degrees).
Looks to be swing started at middle, as shoulders turned and head stayed in zone *(as opposed to shoulder beginning swing and pulling head out).
Back side freely coming forward. (not spinning ala squishing bug)
Shoulder tilt and matching barrel plane.
Back arm's with varying degrees of tuck.
What else?
I see a lot of common things.
Looks like firm from side (front leg rigid, slightly closed front foot and leg angling back and up at 45 +/- degrees).
Looks to be swing started at middle, as shoulders turned and head stayed in zone *(as opposed to shoulder beginning swing and pulling head out).
Back side freely coming forward. (not spinning ala squishing bug)
Shoulder tilt and matching barrel plane.
Back arm's with varying degrees of tuck.
What else?
Looks like in these pictures, Pujols uses less shoulder tilt and more rear leg flex to go get low pitches.
Would any of those pics show the box being maintained throughout the finish of the swing? Or in some cases even before contact.
Were these all outside pitches? I understand the "box", I understand the "V", And extention, and staying on the ball and hundreds of other descriptions that hitting coaches use. I understand the box and leading with front elbow on inside pitches. Staying inside the ball, short to and long finish, bat plain, posture, etc it all makes sense to me.
Thats the problem it all makes sense! Even though people disagree with certain things. Someone linked a good site that has lots of great ML hitters. To be honest, I think I might be seeing things different than many others.
For example (I think) I see extention at or near contact in most every power hitters swing. I understand that anyone can find a clip to use for debating. But then I think someone else could find another example of something different. Truth is... we should be looking for those things that most all of the great hitters do very closely the same.
Many believe Ted Williams might have been the best hitter ever and he really studied hitting. Well why not glue in on his swing!
Hope this doesn't turn into a big arguement. But maybe it will bring some of the old time posters out of retirement.
Were these all outside pitches? I understand the "box", I understand the "V", And extention, and staying on the ball and hundreds of other descriptions that hitting coaches use. I understand the box and leading with front elbow on inside pitches. Staying inside the ball, short to and long finish, bat plain, posture, etc it all makes sense to me.
Thats the problem it all makes sense! Even though people disagree with certain things. Someone linked a good site that has lots of great ML hitters. To be honest, I think I might be seeing things different than many others.
For example (I think) I see extention at or near contact in most every power hitters swing. I understand that anyone can find a clip to use for debating. But then I think someone else could find another example of something different. Truth is... we should be looking for those things that most all of the great hitters do very closely the same.
Many believe Ted Williams might have been the best hitter ever and he really studied hitting. Well why not glue in on his swing!
Hope this doesn't turn into a big arguement. But maybe it will bring some of the old time posters out of retirement.
Interesting hitters
I hope this link works. It shows a few great hitters with some much different styles. And Ted Williams.
I hope this link works. It shows a few great hitters with some much different styles. And Ted Williams.
All these hitters have have forward core movement prior to rotation. The core begins to rotate as the front foot touches down, while the upper body remains closed creating torque. Most of the hitters c o c k the hands/bat prior to the move forward by the hands. The uncoiling of the core leads to the process of turning of the shoulders.
As the shoulders turn, the tuck of the rear arm begins. As the hands begin their move forward, the "pull of the knob" (I would catagorize it as a rotation of the hands) begins to drop the barrel toward the swing plane.
It also appears that just prior to contact on most pitches, the front arm is extended, then the back arm begins to come out of the tuck allowing the top hand to whip or rotate the barrel through the zone.
Kind of like a double pendulum. The body whipping the arms in an arc, and the hands whipping the barrel in another arc.
I'm guessing it's just a coincidence, but none of the hitters were "top hand" release guys after contact. Though I acknowledge the top hand's supply of power through the untucking of the rear arm and the rotation of the top hand around the bottom hand at the time before and through contact.
As the shoulders turn, the tuck of the rear arm begins. As the hands begin their move forward, the "pull of the knob" (I would catagorize it as a rotation of the hands) begins to drop the barrel toward the swing plane.
It also appears that just prior to contact on most pitches, the front arm is extended, then the back arm begins to come out of the tuck allowing the top hand to whip or rotate the barrel through the zone.
Kind of like a double pendulum. The body whipping the arms in an arc, and the hands whipping the barrel in another arc.
I'm guessing it's just a coincidence, but none of the hitters were "top hand" release guys after contact. Though I acknowledge the top hand's supply of power through the untucking of the rear arm and the rotation of the top hand around the bottom hand at the time before and through contact.
Bluuuuuedawg! Stick around. You're needed and wanted here.
Hi Shep.
PG, we getting any closer to seeing what we're supposed to see?
Hi Shep.
PG, we getting any closer to seeing what we're supposed to see?
Agree about The Spendid Splinter. A lot of work went into that "natural ability".
It's what I tried to describe as the back arm coming out of the tuck allowing the top hand to rotate around the knob creating whip.
It's what I tried to describe as the back arm coming out of the tuck allowing the top hand to rotate around the knob creating whip.
a moment of clarity. lol
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
"Extension" and "connection" are very related in a high level swing..The "when" and "how" is what matters..
If it's done improperly, the arms and hands will get trapped and are inhibited..If it's done properly, they won't..
EXCELLENT! Shep, when you talk about the "Merry-Go-Round," you then have to define it as something relating to a point of disconnection that occurs after the ball is hit. This term, as I have come to know it, is a Steve E. term and not related at all to "extension" as it relates to throwing the hands at the ball and/or any type of early disconnection.
I wouldn't call this a merry go round.
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Connection worries me more than extension........Extension is OK if done properly......Connection done improperly will trap the arms and hands.....
Be careful with connection....There are pitfalls if you don't fully understand the concept....
It appears that Bluedog has now gone over to the DARK SIDE!!! LOL!
looks like we are back at this argument again. have fun....
I interpret Bluedog's connection/extension theory as:
Extension is done at the proper time during rotation to untuck the rear arm and allow the top hand to rotate and whip the barrel into and through contact.
If you rotate too soon and try to keep hands back, you risk bat drag. Or, if you extend too soon before contact, you lose the whip benefit the untucking allows. Or, if you wait too long to extend, you get jammed and lose power.
Bluedog, I'm looking for some help.
Extension is done at the proper time during rotation to untuck the rear arm and allow the top hand to rotate and whip the barrel into and through contact.
If you rotate too soon and try to keep hands back, you risk bat drag. Or, if you extend too soon before contact, you lose the whip benefit the untucking allows. Or, if you wait too long to extend, you get jammed and lose power.
Bluedog, I'm looking for some help.
