Should they be tossed off the team

Regardless of whether this happened or not, most schools have policies for breaking the rules, first time, second, third, etc.

Penalties are determined if testing negative on a test was a school test or NCAA.

frank,

Where is the link to this article?

Every situation is different and should be handled as such within the context of team rules...can't have a disparity in treatment.

I am NOT condoning it, but college kids (heck, HS kids) experiment with drinking and sometimes drugs. Sometimes its more important to help the kid than to punish him...unless the punishment accomplishes both. The fact they were able to transfer and play quickly seems like neither was accomplished?

Yes they should. Two years ago, our coaches tossed their best P for a failed urinalysis and last year, they tossed another top P for a DUI.

Everyone has to learn accountability and their actions have consequences. These incidents didn't ruin the kid's lives, but it did teach them a lesson.

I'm grateful that I was one of the 1-5% of kids that didn't have premarital *** 50 years ago. (I've been reading the study published recently)
Can you imagine that 95-99% of kids did? The nuns would be turning in their graves if they knew. Or, they'd be choking on their rosary beads.

It seems, one time alcohol abuse and drug abuse (marijuana use)...is actually forgivable in most collegiate settings.

In my high school days, Fr. O'Malley, OSA, would have embarrassed you in front of the team and then LAUNCHED YOU!

-----

Actually I was kidding. The girls made me do it!

quote:

Originally posted by pfbear13:
Yes they should. Two years ago, our coaches tossed their best P for a failed urinalysis and last year, they tossed another top P for a DUI.

Everyone has to learn accountability and their actions have consequences. These incidents didn't ruin the kid's lives, but it did teach them a lesson.

I want to be on the same page but rz2 is tapping inside my head saying.........

Rules are rules but sometimes they are set by people who think that the world should be run by their interpretation of the perfect person. I've always thought that team rules when applied to suspension or removal of a player should be an Athl Dept rule, made by a group of responsible coaches/players/Athl administrators, and be applied accross the board to all teams. They are after all the overseeing body. Specific team rules can be made, but the death penalty many times puts to much power in the hands of too few.

I wonder what the penalty would be for a coach if he had a positive drug test or DUI? Fortunatly he is probably protected by employee rights. Where are the players rights? That scarlet letter approach years ago proved to be not so good.

A lesson is learned when the repurcussions have to be carried out in front of the presiding judge, in this case the coach and team. Kicking a player out to the street with 1 offense goes against human nature. If a player is unwilling to face the consequences in front of his peers, then open the door, if he is willing, the lesson is learned by not only him, but also his "family" he calls teammates. Many times a coach calls his team family and then says, I treat my players like my own,...............but does he?

Was that the school or coach policy?

As stated all schools have policies for this. While I am not condoning this behavior, it's a fact of life on the college campus.

BTW, if you read school policies and law, information is NOT for public knowledge. A transfer student DOES NOT have to tell another coach why he is transfering.

I know of a student who tested positive for a prohibited drug at an ACC school. As it was a first offense, he had to sit the bench for the fall. The coach told him that it would be in his best interest to transfer since he would not see much playing time in the spring. It was players choice, he had already served his punishment. As soon as his name went on the transfer list he was given an offer to an SEC school, where he is now playing and happier.

I am agreeing with rz1.

The NCAA has strict rules related to drug use. If a test is given, and failed, it's an automatic 12-month suspension, for the 1st offense. If a coach suspects drug use, he needs to test.

This probably does not include the NJCAA, but I'm not positive.

Be good,
David

I have to respectfully disagrre (big surprise, huh?). These kids know the consequences. I applaud our coaches for doing what they did. The kid that got booted was actually drafted out of HS-and trust me, we don't get alot of those in our program. This kid was a stud who chose the school to be close to home and then blew it. Not only did he break team, school, and NCAA rules, he broke the law. Losing his scholarship and being removed from the team under those circumstances was IMHO 100% appropriate.

The DUI kid, I don't know about that one. I think I would have given that kid another chance, but the coaches stuck to their guns and No Tolerance means No Tolerance.

I got to agree with Sparky. The DUI guy is gone to. All the parents of kids who have been killed/maimed by a DUI can tell you how serious that is.
I had a friend who was caught in a drug test and he is no longer playing ball. 3 other friends were caught drinking and acting up and they were booted aswell. Underage and showing up hungover. Given a choice and they chose to ignore the warning.

As stated before. If a player fails a test given by the NCAA the consequences are much stricter than if the test was administrated by the athletic department.

Punishment for breaking rules should be kept uniformed, many are given second chances when others are not. JMO.

At my son's school, merely being in the presence of drugs or underaged drinking is enough to get you kicked off the team and banned from all sports the entire time your go through high school. I think the rule is way to strict. Some really good student athletes have had their athletic dreams ruined by one night of poor judgement.

The drug thing is an absolute disaster. The media is filled with stories about people, both celebrities and otherwise, who are given second chances after drug tests. Whether they be recreational drugs or performance enhancing drugs. In today's youth culture marijuana is a very exceptable drug. It is a plethera of mixed messages. Shawn Merriman gets suspended for 4 games for performance enhancers and makes the pro bowl?

Obviously, I think there should be some punishment but I don't think a career death sentence is in order. Until the law changes it is illegal and should be treated as such.

The DUI thing is a completely different set of circumstances. In my former profession, I had the displeasure of seeing the carnage and destruction of drinking and driving. Most often, innocent people are the victims of this particular crime. To drink underage is a tolerable offense but combining it with the stupidity of getting behind the wheel of a 3000 pound deadly weapon is intolerable. They are GONE.

all very interesting takes on a huge issue. usually only gets brought up when the stud's get caught. the rules are the rules. if they don't have rules they should. if they do they should follow them, what ever the outcome. these kids signed on to represent their school,help their team mates compeat. they let many people down.including themselves.but....

the thing i alway's hear, is basically drinking is ok. kids are going to have a few beers like all kids. just as many lives are ruined with drinking as with drugs.we all know someone who has been effected by alcohol. so it can't be all that bad? but.........

the trouble with just kicking someone off the team is you just gave up on him. maybe that kid needed some help? having been through this first hand,i know help isn't easy to find.and believe me i looked ,asked, nearly begged for it. if the coach or professor has a drug or drinking problem they most likley have an employee assistance program that will help them. they in most cases don't lose their job.but they get help,i'm sure all kids who get caught aren't addicted. but who know's which ones are? should we kick them all to the curb? the rules are the rules.

no easy answer to this problem. but they don't seem to be talked about enough. sorry to ramble on.

I know the program Andy is talking about. Actually saw him there with Bob, our founder.

I have always felt, rules are rules and laws are laws. I will not say I have never broken a rule or even a law, little lead foot in some of us , but have tried to live my life within the law and rules of society.

That said, why would a baseball player go to a school when he knows the coach is a ZERO tolerance guy toward drugs and alcohol? NOT EVERY PLAYER, NOT EVERY COLLEGE STUDENT wants to drink or do drugs.

As others have said, different colleges, different coaches handle it differently. To some it is just an internal thing, boys will be boys, to others you are gone.

Personally, my son really liked he was going to a school that there was not going to be drinking/drugs. It was the deciding factor in his signing there. BUT once there, it was different. It was going on, and the COACH KNEW IT. The difference was it was ok if you were the stud, just don't let me catch you.

There was no wiggle room when an RA caught them and reported it to the Dean. EVERYONE KNEW THE COACHES POLICY, and he had no choice but to kick those boys off the team.

NO, MY SON WAS NOT ONE OF THOSE KICKED OUT.

Beenthere... I am not surprized at all that you are a 1 to 5 percenter!

There is no difference between getting the behind the wheel of a car after drinking or smoking a joint is there? To me personally the only difference between the two is marijuana is illegal to possess and if you are of age alcohol is not. As far as the kids getting kicked off the team - what are the rules at that particular school? If they violate the rules and they have been told that if they do they will be kicked off the team , what is the issue here? They have every right and should be able to go to another school and get a second chance. Some programs have a zero tolerance policy towards alcohol use. Some do not. But I dont believe that any have a tolerance for illegal drug use? Now they may have a policy that allows for some sort of punishment then treatment then reinstatement. While others may have a zero tolerance "program policy". Again the players are told up front what the deal is. If they violate it then they have to deal with whatever the policy is. Why is the coach at fault for following a policy? Isnt it up to the player or players to make sure that they follow the rules and then deal with the ramifications if they do not? I believe in second chances. I believe that we are all human and we all make mistakes. That is why I have no problem with a young man being able to transfer to another program and get a fresh start. But I have no problem with a coaching staff setting an example that this type of behavior is not going to be tolerated. Now where is the players responsibility in this? Grow up and follow the rules or go somewhere else. Are you there to get an education and play baseball, or are you there to party and play baseball? Make up your mind. I took my oldest son on a football recruiting visit his Junior year. While walking around the campus with the coach I asked him what the teams policy was on alcohol use. He said "We don't have an alcohol policy. We know college kids are going to drink. As long as they keep it under controll and don't do anything stupid we don't have a problem with it". Well right then and there I knew he was not going to that school and he did not. Do I want my son playing for a coach that could careless if his players are drinking alcohol. I want a coach that is going to say "Our guys are here to go to class , get and education and help us win football games. Where does alcohol figure into that Mr May"? JMPO others might say "Hey they are kids let them have some fun. There going to do it anyway there in college." That kind of attitude is why we have the problems with our youth that we have today in the first place. If I have made any of you mad Im sorry. But a 18 year old freshman coming into a party program environment away from home for the first time is around guys he is trying to fit in with. The pressure to fit in is enormous. ENORMOUS!! I know first hand. The pressure to fit in I repeat is ENORMOUS!! Why would you want to have an environment that fostered this kind of behavior or tolerated this type of behavior! I want my son in an environment where there is no doubt , no gray areas of interpetation "YOU DONT DRINK AND PLAY HERE AND IF YOU USE DRUGS YOU WILL NOT BE HERE EITHER". And if my son was one of the ones that got burned I would be the first to say "At least he is going to learn a valuable lesson". Now lets see if he can learn from it and move on with his life. But we are not going to blame the coach, the police, the teacher, the neighbor, look in the mirror and you will find the answer to whom to blame. SOAP BOX TIME

Whatever the rules for the team and school are is up to that scholl, and you need to adhere to them.

That being said...I do believe in second chances.

I don't know what % of 18-20 year olds drink but I do think it is unrealistic to think that at college that students or student athletes will not drink. If a athlete gets in trouble for drinking should the school hold the same standard for the non-athlete or the academic scholarship student.

I also wonder how many poster here may have had a drink prior to the legal limit and what effect it would have had on you if you were kicked off your team or school.

If a school wants to get rid of drinking on campus then they need to have on-going education (not just 1 meeting in the Fall). They need to supervise all Frat and Sorority functions and they need to patrol all dorms throughout the night and lets have DWI checkpoints throughout the campus and when they enter or leave their dorms. How about closing down the bars that serve the minors with real enforcement.

To me it seems that is always so easy for everyone to say "Yes drinking is bad" or "athletes need to be held to a higher standard". Our society promotes drinking, and so do schools. Instead of arresting people why not visit tailgates at College Football games and empty everyones drinks that doesn't have ID. Better yet why allow any alcohol on campus. Lets fine and arrest all tailgaters for bringing alcohol on campus, no matter how big of a donor they are.

Of course students will travel off campus to drink if we get rid of alcohol on campus raising DWI's. Lets put a 50 mile radius around all colleges and not allow any alcohol sales.


I am not trying to belittle the damage that alcohol can do and the devastation that alcohol can cause, just look at the MADD website. I just think it is unrealistic to hold college students to a higher standard than the rest of society.

A smart coach lays down the law to his players before they set foot on the field. He tells them what is tolerable and what is not. He hopes that they will not be stupid.

A coach that gives zero tolerance in college forgets that he was once a college student himself.

A coach is not responsible for your behavior 24/7. He is responsible for your performance on the field.

Athletes are held to a higher standard, but on most college campus they are students just like everyone else. Their behavior is governed and punished by the school. You will be surprised, most coaches will have no clue unless the behavior makes headlines.

Do not expect college coaches to be watchdogs over your sons behavior.

Do players sign 'contracts' with their college concerning their behavior including, but not limited to, drugs and alcohol?

quote:

Originally posted by mymommasmean:
Do players sign 'contracts' with their college concerning their behavior including, but not limited to, drugs and alcohol?

I think, whether parents know it or not there is an "Athletic Code of Conduct" form that players have signed. It may have been a form that was within a stack of forms, or a piece of paper that was handed put during the teams NCAA meeting that they went through in Sept. In todays world of litigation I would think that a school would want a signature on paper that releases them from liability in case an issue arises.

As TPM and others who had son's in the NCAA tournament last year. Drug tests were administered to the players. If a player were to fail the test, he is ineligable for the entire next year. From first hand knowledge, this happened to one player. He now loses a year of eligability, his scholarship and cannot transfer to play elsewhere. He had already completed 2 years of school so he couldn't go CC or JC.

I believe that drinking on college campus' is rampant. What lesson's your child brings with them can help to a point. I know what the deal is with my son, when I visited I heard the comments from some of his teammates. I also, as Coach May did, spoke with the coaches in advance on what their policy was. It also weighed heavily on our decision....

I think most schools handle it internally, suspensions, missed road trips, field work etc..All will have a policy in place. This didn't start yesterday.

I do beleive that the players have to sign a schools code of conduct, for their school, conference and NCAA. Not sure if for all three.

I as a parent signed an agreement to the school that I understood that drinking in college was rampant and what the schools program was for discouraging it. And that I discussed it with my child before he left for school.It was voluntary to do so. I signed it.

I am not understanding the bit why it is ok on gameday tough, other times not. But that is JMO. Different rules for different days, that will never change.

As coach Merc suggests, NCAA is more interested in testing during competition time coming down the home stretch to a trip to Omaha. It is random testing. School testing may not be, the entire team might take tests for their athletic department.

See in the news today a key player for Tiger football got busted yesterday for possesion of weed.
Right before a bowl game. Football draft coming up.
Knowing Tommy Bowden and his philosophy he might not be in Memphis. But since it occured off campus, he may just go as he has not been
found guilty in a court of law. Will be interesting to see how things play out.

Not understanding why someone with a promising career takes such chances. Sad.
Just wanted you to all know, happens all of the time.

Beenthere,
I held out as long as I could but I wasn't given a choice either.

Dont make rules if you are not going to enforce them.

quote:

But since it occured off campus, he may just go as he has not been found guilty in a court of law.

quote:

Charlotte Observer:
Coleman was stopped by Seneca police Wednesday afternoon and ticketed for simple possession of marijuana, a misdemeanor offense.

Please TPM. He was pulled over and had it in his possession. Maybe he was wearing someone elses pants , maybe he found it on the curb and was driving to the PD to turn it in , maybe it was perscribed for medicinal purposes , maybe he took it away from a troubled teen on a street corner , or maybe he was out to get a little buzz on .

If this is swept under the table and the kid is allowed to play, shame on Clemson and the whole Athletic Department. This whole thread is directed at this type of behavior and if this is let go then it is a reflection on the athletic department. I feel for the kid because I have some personal reservations on the topic that goes back 30 some years, not that it's ok, but some reservations. However, I do have problems with schools that preach "no tolerance" and then make the rules as they go along. Clemson has only 1 option, and using the "system" to stop the clock is wrong, the kid is a senior, no team penalty after his last game. If this was a case where guilt was in question that is one thing, but a "simple possession" misdemeanor of a drug is a no-brainer. Then again, maybe it's ok to hold it as long as you're not using it

Ask Donald Trump to be the judge. Cocaine, alcohol, and publicly making out with Miss Teen USA, and Miss Kentucky/ USA gets another chance to be a role model!

rz,
Did I make excuses for the action?

Did I say he should not be kicked off the team?

Did I say knowing TB he most likely will not let him play.

Did I say how stupid it was?

Yes, it would be shameful.

Yes, this is what the topic is about so that is why I POSTED it.

Just remember though, he did not test positive, he was caught with it, so anything is possible, correct? Did I make excuses?

That is all I said.

As I said before, you got some issues, you need to chill.

I suppose I could get blasted for this, but here goes.

I'm a 'law-and-order' kind of guy...but I'm not really a fan of 'no-tolerance' policies on some of these matters.

Why? Well, a few reasons. If you have a policy such as that, then you kind of pin yourself in a corner. I believe most of these policies are put in place to scare the kids from attempting anything. So what do you do when they do anyways (as they will)? Doesn't necessarily end with the correct punishment everytime does it?

One of my most signifcant career and life mentors, 20 years my elder, recently confided in me that he to this day has an "arrest record" for getting caught as a teenager/young-adult with a trunk full of beer. Its something he has to explain, all his life, everytime he fills out a job application or a security clearance or whatever. He made a silly 18-year old mistake...one that many of us also probably made but didn't get caught.

What if he had been a college athlete? Should he have been publicly embarrassed and thrown off the football/basketball/baseball team? Out of school? He was poor...so that could've been a real result. Had he been summarily "thrown out" would he have gone on to a world-renown career in research as he did? Or would have gone back to work in the flour mill like his father?

Look, he made a silly mistake. I made mistakes (still do!). I bet most of you did too ('cept Beenthere I guess? ).

Lets not be so quick to jump all over kids in college who goof up. Let their families and their coaches and their university deal with it quietly, with dignity and in a way that helps fix the problem. Thats my view anyways.

tpm, it was a "please tpm" as in, lets not have people use that as an excuse. The post was not at all directed toward you. You made your point and a good one.

quote:

Lets not be so quick to jump all over kids in college who goof up. Let their families and their coaches and their university deal with it quietly, with dignity and in a way that helps fix the problem. Thats my view anyways.

Mine, too, justbaseball............

I think, whether parents know it or not there is an "Athletic Code of Conduct" form that players have signed. It may have been a form that was within a stack of forms, or a piece of paper that was handed put during the teams NCAA meeting that they went through in Sept. In todays world of litigation I would think that a school would want a signature on paper that releases them from[/quote]


Thanks for the info.
Our son is a 2009; we have a while until we get there, but HS really is going sooo quickly....

JBB quotes:
"Lets not be so quick to jump all over kids in college who goof up. Let their families and their coaches and their university deal with it quietly, with dignity and in a way that helps fix the problem. Thats my view anyways."

I agree with your view. And that was the point I was trying to make, was not making any excuses and honestly feel that I shouldn't have to be jumped all over by someone that has some issues when I was just stating what occured.

I happen to know of a few kids, within a last couple of years, that made stupid mistakes. Two became first round draft picks, another a second round pick. S*** happens.

On another note Dontrelle Willis, one of my favorites, refused a breath test early this am and booked for DUI in Miami. This makes me sad as well, but he made a mistake. Personally, other than embarrasment for him and the team, I suppose things will eventually be worked out.

Will he be kicked off the team? Doubt it. So why should a teenager making a stupid mistake be kicked off as well? As JBB suggests, this is for coaches, players and families to work out.
I don't know the answer, just food for thought.

tolerance no tolerance. Is it one or the other. as I said before if you are going to make a rule enforce it or dont have it. I have been in education for 35 years and coached for 25 of them. I really never had any problems as I always told my students and my players what was expected. Maybe I was lucky. As far as discipline is concerned some kids and parents have the mindset that discipline is good as long as it is not for them. Be fair but always be consistent. when you make exceptions is when the trouble starts. If you say it do it or dont say it.

I feel sorry for the young men who break the rules but the rules are there. Do you take into consideration that they may be 1st 2nd round players ? No because they didn't when they broke the rules. The dinking and dope laws are put in place to protect young men and kids from making silly mistakes. These guys have been told over and over that they have to follow school, team policies and there is no excuse.
My son is legal drinking age in Canada but he has always drank in moderation and has strict rules set by us regardless. He knows he can pick up the phone and we will pick himup day or night. Your life can be altered trajecly in a matter of seconds. He also got all the information he needed to understand what would happen to his BB if he should be implicated in any disiplinary action by the school or the police.
These guys who broke the law are not victims , heck the law is enforced to protect themselves from themselves if they can't.

I agree with Will. But to me there are strict rules with defined punishment and there can be rules that must be treated individually IMO

Back when I was making the rules, they were very strict. At the same time we took into account that these rules could cause future problems. So we left the punishment part kind of undefined.

This was done because sometimes things happen with circumstances you never expected. Something that the "rule" doesn't clearly cover in a fair way.

I do agree with Will... if you say it do it! It's just that sometimes you might have said the wrong thing and you can get stuck with the outcome. Guess, I'm a big believer in adjustment.

It is amazing how the adjustments sometimes depends on who broke the rule.

quote:

Should they be tossed off the team

How can you Help them if you throw them away??

Player's/People make mistakes, Help them recover to an extent.
Not a free ride, there will be punishment.
Sometime's it would have to be a case by case basis??
JMHO EH

I agree with will. You help them by teaching them that there are consequences for breaking the rules.
At the next school if they can find one they will know better.
If you are going to give second chances put that in your rules and apply it equally.