theEH, I totally agree. Who among us has not blown it big time at some point in our past? I firmly believe in strong consequences, but I also believe in second chances. If all baseball players' mistakes were exposed to the world -- be they sexual, cheating, alcohol, drugs, steroids, etc. -- I wonder if there would be enough guys left to field a team.
Bobblehead said: "The d[r]inking and dope laws are put in place to protect young men and kids from making silly mistakes."
I don't believe that's so...how does kicking the student/athlete off the team, out of school, and off scholarship "protect" him. In most Western Societies, the laws proscribe certain activities and provide for the PUNISHMENT of transgressors. Unfortunately, no law can "protect" anyone from MAKING mistakes, silly, or otherwise. IMHO, the laws are there to act as a deterrent (hopefully) but, in any event, to provide punishment if/when they are broken. Again, in Western Society, people are "free" to break the law and are only punished when/if it is broken.
Personally, I'm not a fan of "zero tolerance," which I consider a one-size-fits-all, "objective" approach by which the enforcing authority is permitted/required to abdicate responsibility for determining a measured response appropriate to the crime. The "subjective" approach permits, and sometimes even requires, unequal enforcement. Conversely, the "objective" approach is pure absolutism...ham-handed application of the same punishment to all, w/o exception, or regard to circumstances.
Which is worse? Does your answer change when you consider the crime "victimless?" Sometimes, it's a matter of whose ox is being gored, but as soon as you allow for some exceptions/mitigating circumstances, you know what you are...and, as the joke goes, "now we're just haggling over price." (Please...I say this tongue-in-cheek and sincerely hope no one here takes it personally.)
I guess that puts me in the camp of JBB/TPM/EH AS IF, after this diatribe, they'd have me.
I don't believe that's so...how does kicking the student/athlete off the team, out of school, and off scholarship "protect" him. In most Western Societies, the laws proscribe certain activities and provide for the PUNISHMENT of transgressors. Unfortunately, no law can "protect" anyone from MAKING mistakes, silly, or otherwise. IMHO, the laws are there to act as a deterrent (hopefully) but, in any event, to provide punishment if/when they are broken. Again, in Western Society, people are "free" to break the law and are only punished when/if it is broken.
Personally, I'm not a fan of "zero tolerance," which I consider a one-size-fits-all, "objective" approach by which the enforcing authority is permitted/required to abdicate responsibility for determining a measured response appropriate to the crime. The "subjective" approach permits, and sometimes even requires, unequal enforcement. Conversely, the "objective" approach is pure absolutism...ham-handed application of the same punishment to all, w/o exception, or regard to circumstances.
Which is worse? Does your answer change when you consider the crime "victimless?" Sometimes, it's a matter of whose ox is being gored, but as soon as you allow for some exceptions/mitigating circumstances, you know what you are...and, as the joke goes, "now we're just haggling over price." (Please...I say this tongue-in-cheek and sincerely hope no one here takes it personally.)
I guess that puts me in the camp of JBB/TPM/EH AS IF, after this diatribe, they'd have me.
Will,
I know your thinking adjustments are based on who the player is. I didn't really mean that.
Example... We had a rule to be on the bus ready to go at a certain time. First time offense - If not on time you don't go.
Our starting catcher and arguably our best hitter showed up a minute or two late. Said he over slept. I told him to get off the bus we are going without you. I had several players beg to change my mind, but we took the trip without him.
Later that year we had a reserve show up late for the bus because he was at the hospital with his sick mother. I knew this might happen ahead of time. We waited and then let him on the bus. No one brought up the other incident or complained about anything.
Do you feel this was the proper decision in either case?
I know your thinking adjustments are based on who the player is. I didn't really mean that.
Example... We had a rule to be on the bus ready to go at a certain time. First time offense - If not on time you don't go.
Our starting catcher and arguably our best hitter showed up a minute or two late. Said he over slept. I told him to get off the bus we are going without you. I had several players beg to change my mind, but we took the trip without him.
Later that year we had a reserve show up late for the bus because he was at the hospital with his sick mother. I knew this might happen ahead of time. We waited and then let him on the bus. No one brought up the other incident or complained about anything.
Do you feel this was the proper decision in either case?
In situations like these, it is so easy for somebody on the outside (including me) to have a theory/philosophy and determine what is right/wrong, etc.
What is not as easy is to be the coach/person who is doling out the consequences for breaking team rules, curfews, lateness, etc. Somebody mentioned that if a coach is going to make rules then he better enforce them, and I agree with that completely.
I have left my best player behind (one minute late for the bus), benched my #3 hitter a few times in crucial games (not for breaking rules, but just for having a selfish attitude), suspended players, etc. It isn't fun to do, but a coach has to do what is best for the team.
On the other hand, a coach is also a mentor, and must care about the individual player(s) involved, whether rule breakers or not.
I know that there are many people on the sidelines who have never lost a game and never left a pitcher in too long, but they still have an opinion about game strategy and pitching changes. They also have opinions about rule breakers and what consequences they believe are appropriate. Their opinions are not necessarily wrong nor right, but it is easy to make the decision when one is only doing it theoretically.
It is a much bigger challenge when a coach has to severely discipline a player whom he is very fond of. Sometimes the decisions are black/white, but many times not!
What is not as easy is to be the coach/person who is doling out the consequences for breaking team rules, curfews, lateness, etc. Somebody mentioned that if a coach is going to make rules then he better enforce them, and I agree with that completely.
I have left my best player behind (one minute late for the bus), benched my #3 hitter a few times in crucial games (not for breaking rules, but just for having a selfish attitude), suspended players, etc. It isn't fun to do, but a coach has to do what is best for the team.
On the other hand, a coach is also a mentor, and must care about the individual player(s) involved, whether rule breakers or not.
I know that there are many people on the sidelines who have never lost a game and never left a pitcher in too long, but they still have an opinion about game strategy and pitching changes. They also have opinions about rule breakers and what consequences they believe are appropriate. Their opinions are not necessarily wrong nor right, but it is easy to make the decision when one is only doing it theoretically.
It is a much bigger challenge when a coach has to severely discipline a player whom he is very fond of. Sometimes the decisions are black/white, but many times not!
kb2610
kb2610, You can join our dia-Tribe anytime.
There are Rule's??
EH
quote:I guess that puts me in the camp of JBB/TPM/EH AS IF, after this diatribe, they'd have me.
kb2610, You can join our dia-Tribe anytime.
There are Rule's??
EH
We'll take ya kb2610...anytime! 
I was very strict with my daughter, who gave me every gray hair I had before I started "dying", so I let up on son. He was quite different than her, very focused and lots of commom sense. The few times he messed up in HS over kid stuff I punished him accordingly.
I had very strict rules about certain things and my philosophy was not what it is today.
I think that comes with your children growing older, they are not perfect and never will be because we are not perfect.
I also went to college.
I also learned as a parent if you want your children to follow a certain standard you must do the same. If you feel that drinking and driving is wrong, do not drink and drive. If you call the coach names in front of your son, don't get mad when he mouths off. If you think that your kids will never mess up, don't get mad if they do.
I don't stop to think if what kids or people do is right I wrong, I stop to think WHY? Why does a college football player get pulled over for using drugs when he could have a great career in front ot him. Why does a first baseball round draft pick become addicted to drugs? Why does a million dollar NFL player feign overdose?
There are usually strong reasons behind these type of behaviors. It is very hard to judge if you do not know them personally.
JMO.
I had very strict rules about certain things and my philosophy was not what it is today.
I think that comes with your children growing older, they are not perfect and never will be because we are not perfect.
I also went to college.
I also learned as a parent if you want your children to follow a certain standard you must do the same. If you feel that drinking and driving is wrong, do not drink and drive. If you call the coach names in front of your son, don't get mad when he mouths off. If you think that your kids will never mess up, don't get mad if they do.
I don't stop to think if what kids or people do is right I wrong, I stop to think WHY? Why does a college football player get pulled over for using drugs when he could have a great career in front ot him. Why does a first baseball round draft pick become addicted to drugs? Why does a million dollar NFL player feign overdose?
There are usually strong reasons behind these type of behaviors. It is very hard to judge if you do not know them personally.
JMO.
KB2610 a deterent does protect . Its intent is to make people think hard before doing something that has tough repercussions.
More importantly it sends a message to others that might think you can get away with something. Most people who are involved with drugs etc don't do it alone. The problem may run a little deeper than the one individual.
I think being late for a bus is a little different. Our coaches had those rules and they enforced them. If someone informed the coach a valid reason for being late or not making a practice , they accepted that and did not punish the players.
Punishment of individuals for drugs and drinking may even save their lives. maybe North America would be in better shape if the laws were enforced. I don't think we have reached utopia yet. All you have to do is listen to the news.
I had a guy who cheated meout of a small amount of money. He committed a fraud against me . I pressed to have him charged. The officer talked to him and told me what a nice guy he was and was not going to charge him.
A few months later this guy was shot at while driving down the street and a few months later he was beat to death in a Florida motel. I latter found out that he had cheated several people. I phoned the cop who didn't charge him and congratulated him on great police work. I blamed him and others for this young man believing he was so good looking and so smart he could get away with anything. The drug dealers took care of that.
The worst thing I met his parents a few years latter on some business and they asked ne if I knew him. They thought he was an angel and I went along with it.
More importantly it sends a message to others that might think you can get away with something. Most people who are involved with drugs etc don't do it alone. The problem may run a little deeper than the one individual.
I think being late for a bus is a little different. Our coaches had those rules and they enforced them. If someone informed the coach a valid reason for being late or not making a practice , they accepted that and did not punish the players.
Punishment of individuals for drugs and drinking may even save their lives. maybe North America would be in better shape if the laws were enforced. I don't think we have reached utopia yet. All you have to do is listen to the news.
I had a guy who cheated meout of a small amount of money. He committed a fraud against me . I pressed to have him charged. The officer talked to him and told me what a nice guy he was and was not going to charge him.
A few months later this guy was shot at while driving down the street and a few months later he was beat to death in a Florida motel. I latter found out that he had cheated several people. I phoned the cop who didn't charge him and congratulated him on great police work. I blamed him and others for this young man believing he was so good looking and so smart he could get away with anything. The drug dealers took care of that.
The worst thing I met his parents a few years latter on some business and they asked ne if I knew him. They thought he was an angel and I went along with it.
quote:I knew this might happen ahead of time.
PGSTAFF
might have had something to do with your decision. You know today with e mail and cell phones etc etc it much easier to inform each other of things.
We have read the reports of selective rules. I had a rule you miss practice you dont play. If you were going to be late or miss practice(which should not happen too much) you had to let me know. a phone call to the coaches office and a message left on machine wuld have sufficed. he had the number. He said he forgot to call. Well on game day I told him I forgot to put his name in the line up. this was years ago and when we run into each other it comes up in our conversation. We joke about it but he always says he always lets his boss or employees what is going on. Never leaves them hanging so to speak. Sometimes baseball is not about baseball?
quote:posted by Bobblehead: The drug dealers took care of that. The worst thing I met his parents a few years latter on some business and they asked ne if I knew him. They thought he was an angel and I went along with it.
Drugs and Dealers will unwind everything good. Interesting series of articles about yet another life cut short by drug violence. A day seldom passes without lethal drug violence here.
Dereck Parker
quote:Sometimes baseball is not about baseball?
Well said Will!