Sign or College......That Is The Question!!

Old Pitcher, Good topic but like you say ---no answer.

There are many different ways you can look at this. Take your pick!

Let me get deep here ----You can ONLY compare your situation and the way you are doing it ---- to ----- yourself if you were doing it another way and since it is impossible to do two things at once, there will never be an answer.

Let me give you two fabricated answers to the same question using my son using his actual situation as an example and both could be true --- or untrue --- take your pick.

#1 answer (used with family members and college educated friends)
My son chose the right path. He didn’t sign when drafted out of high school and opted to go to college, work toward a degree and play college baseball. He had a great time in college and is well on his way to a degree that should provide him with the basics necessary for a good future. He has since been drafted again and opted to play professionally. Doing it this way allows him the best of both worlds; almost a college degree AND playing professional baseball. I am so proud of him!

-------------OR-----------------

#2 answer (used at the county club and the poker game after a few brews)
My son chose the wrong path. He should have signed out of high school. He was drafted and offered a sizable signing bonus that would have provided him with a comfortable life for a number of years and more than enough where he could have focused his attention to becoming a MLB player. Had he signed out of high school I’m sure he would be on a MLB roster and making a seven figure salary TODAY.... But NO..... he wallowed around, socializing. playing college ball and failed to get a degree. While he is more mature he is also older by three years and will not be given as much time and attention toward fulfilling his lifelong dream of playing ML baseball. Had he signed out of high school, I know at this instant I would have my new $300,000 RV (nicknamed “Fungo’s Fastlane”) that I could follow him around in ---- but I
don’t.

The preceding answers are to be used as an example only. Fungo gave up golf, doesn’t belong to a county club, no longer consumes adult beverages, or plays poker .... Or owns an RV.

quote:

If I had gone to college, maybe I wouldn't have been injured and then maybe gotten drafted again and maybe made it to the show.

Old Pitcher, this is an interesting topic.

I am sure there are a lot of “what ifs” out there. Some may wonder what would have happened if they had gone to college, while others could wonder what would have happened if they had gone pro right after high school.

In the case where Old Pitcher got hurt playing pro ball, there may also be those who got hurt playing college ball and never got the chance to play pro ball again.

I would like to hear some of these stories, too.

It comes down to a personal situation--what are the needs? How much $$ can make you sign?

Pitchers are in a tougher spot than position players --- it's a little tough to "overuse" a left fielder. Injuries are a factor at either level, but the overuse (see TR's "Ouch" thread) and (argueably) less extensive training/medical facilities at college would lead me to believe a quality pitcher drafted high enough to know he was getting a serious look (and enough of a bonus to know the club had made an investment in him) should probably go with the draft.

As for stories, let's see, there's the old LL hero, touted for the first couple of rounds but with parents who laid down the law on college. He was signed to a major-perennial-CWS program, and hasn't pitched much since his sophomore year because of arm problems.

Conversely, there's the Grienke story and how strange is that?!

Maturity is the key either way: would he be able to handle minor league life, able to recognize how the organization regards him and hang in there or cut his losses as the case may be, would he go on to college a few years down the road if things didn't work out?

Or, can he handle the rigors of academics and athletics, and recognize when he needs to protect his body without getting too precious about it? If academics have always been a strong suit, that argues in favor of college.

Then there's a compromise route: consider a JuCo in a competitive conference like the Panhandle Conference here in FL. He can get his AA, transfer to a DI, and be constantly eligible for the draft.

$1 million and more...take the money.

Poor student...take the money.

If you're a stud, and likely to be drafted in the top 5 rounds, go to college.

If you go from 10th round to 50th round...Go to college if you don't get more than a plane tickets and some McDonald's coupons.

So far, I like what you guys have said. Keep them coming......interesting stuff!! Thank you!

Fungo - That's hysterical!!!! A lot of wisdom in that humor too, of course!

Old Pitcher - I've always said that if a kid chooses to skip college and go on to try his hand in the minors, he'd have my understanding and support. I still feel that way. However, I know players that have bypassed that chance and gone on to college first. As has been said, it's their choice, their decision, and they'll be the ones that live with the consequences - just as you did.

You do understand that for every story similar to yours - there's a kid that went on to college to not be drafted again or to have a career ending injury there.

Unfortunately, (well, maybe fortunately) none of us know what the future holds and can only make the best decisions at the time. Many of us have a regret or two lying around - part of life.

I would have to say that, looking back on my career and my life in general, an education would have helped me tremendously for life after baseball. I was finished at 22 years old, married, needed money and went to work for my dad, thinking I had it made. Wrong. A college education would have made my life since a little easier in my opinion.

I loved the opportunity I had playing baseball. I just wish I had been smart enough to realize how important an education is.

Old Pitcher - This question always comes up. One of my thoughts and feelings has been that if a kid is motivated enough to go to college, that he can do that at 30 or 40 just the same as 18. However, I do understand, that for many players, baseball really is the motivating factor to obtain an education.

Did you go on to school or did you ever consider going to school when baseball ended? Or were you not interested because baseball wasn't a part of that scenario any longer? Interesting thoughts you've shared.

quote:

Old Pitcher - This question always comes up. One of my thoughts and feelings has been that if a kid is motivated enough to go to college, that he can do that at 30 or 40 just the same as 18. However, I do understand, that for many players, baseball really is the motivating factor to obtain an education.

Did you go on to school or did you ever consider going to school when baseball ended? Or were you not interested because baseball wasn't a part of that scenario any longer? Interesting thoughts you've shared.

lafmom,

Thinking back to that time, I guess I just didn't think school was for me. I had a great job working for my dad. He sold the company 5 years later and I went to work for the new owners. I didn't like some things they did to change what my dad and I had worked so hard to make the company better, so I decided to go out on my own and own my own business. I felt I didn't have time to go to college at that time and just didn't realize how much you really need to think about the future and not the here and now.

Old Pitcher - Thanks for sharing your story. You certainly point out some valid thoughts. I guess it's a difficult thing for many of our young guys to completely understand what the future means and what it takes to be prepared for whatever the future holds.

An education has made the difference in many of our lives. While all of us here are passionate about our baseball, an education is an opportunity most of us desire for our kids to have as well.

Again, no easy answers to your question!

One Thought:


BASEBALL is not forever !!!!! Players need to be prepared for the "fallout" when it is over!

OP: You made the right choice at the time. Unfortunately, it didnt work out the way you wanted.

You could have gotten hurt in college too. Nobody knows what would have happened if you did something else.

You took your shot, at least you had the chance. There are probably millions of men who wished they had that one in a million chance to make it.

Go back to college if you feel you need it.

You made the right choice for yourself at the time. As each other player will do every spring.

I was just wondering how big a jump it is from high school to rookie ball? You hear so much about player development, but it seems to me that it would be very hard to skip a level (college) and go straight to professional ball.

P.S. Sorry if this is off topic.

HowUbe, it is a significant jump from high school to rookie ball. In many ways, professional baseball is so much different than college. Going to college, however, isn't necessarily a "stepping stone" to rookie ball, viewed only from the baseball side. In fact, in some "rookie" leagues, a 19 year old will be competing with recent college signees.
Taking it only from a baseball perspective, it is quite a big jump from high school to "rookie" ball. You will play upwards of 75 games in about 80 days, long bus rides, will be playing guys 3-4 years older and some younger, especially from the Latin countries. If you are a position player, it will be a rare day the opposing pitchers (3-4 of them)do not throw 90mph with some pretty good command of at least one other pitch. If you are a pitcher, you will find the other teams 6-9 hitters were probably better than anyone you faced anytime during high school. The game is faster, more intense and a place where you quickly move from the success or failures in one game to being ready for another challenge...as soon as you get off that darn bus. You will generally not experience the emotions, the highs/lows you might in a college season, but if you really love baseball, you will play plenty of it with the associated improvement you might expect.

infielddad,
I am not sure so someone can correct me if wrong.
My understanding is that "rookie camp" was more or less for those directly out of HS.
Most college signees go into short season or low A, etc, depending on team.

TPM, "Rookie" ball is also known as the Rookie league. The Gulf Coast league, Arizona league and Appalachian leagues would all be considered "Rookie" ball and anyone who is drafted in June out of high school and chooses to sign could end up with such an assignment. These are all short season teams but classified as "Rookie" as opposed to "short-season A." Plenty of college players end up with assignments in "Rookie" ball after they sign. I would propose that upwards of 1/3 to 1/2 of the college signees end up at that level. I would fully agree that most college players selected in the first 20 rounds end up in short season A and some in low A and a few even above that level. College players after the 20th round have a pretty good chance of being in a Rookie league where a lot of high school players start.
There really is no "rookie camp." At the end of Spring training, if a minor leaguer does not get an assignment to a full season team, they can stay in extended Spring training awaiting an assignment in June to a short season team and that does happen with high school players who signed the previous June but are not yet ready for a full season assignment.

Infielddad,
Thanks, I think that is what I meant!

OP,
After seeing some of the pitch counts from this last weekend of several pitchers, it is a very big decision to consider just what could happen to a young college pitchers arm during his college career.
Scary actually to see counts of 147, 137, 124 and some pitchers well past 60+ innings mid way through season. And done week after week. We used to be horrified seeing this in Omaha, now it is happeneing on the road to Omaha.

Interesting to learn that most pitchers entering college have at one time or another pitched too much already in HS. Then there is college summer leagues, fall practice. If there is no pitching depth, the starters have to go deep. This usually happens with juniors and seniors, but now seeing freshman and sophmores with high pitch counts.
My suggestion, watch closely the schools that have shown great interest in your son. This might be a deciding factor as to where he chooses to attend, or not to attend college at all.
On the other hand, I often hear many say that for position players, getting at bats, maturing and developing tools, college should be the choice.

Fungo,Great post.
I can only dream to help my son with that decision in 3 years.

Fungo and infielddad,
So in reality, what you are saying is that many of the college and HS players selected in later rounds become the team for the few HS players who are considered prospects?

TPM, uh, er, hmm...I think Fungo might have said that?
From what I know, and it is not too much but is a lot more than in 2004, a lot of that answer depends on the organization and their views. Our son was a 25th round pick and his contract says he was headed to a "Rookie" league. After a mini-camp, he ended up in short season A, got some chances there and survived and got another chance in low A and survived. I also know of a 2005 free agent(undrafted college senior) who was assigned to Rookie ball last summer and now has really created some interest.
In the minor leagues, you come to hear the term "organizational" player. When you read that in a scouting report or hear it from a scout, that is the player you are describing. Some organizations let you earn more, some may not.

If you are wanted out of high school and baseball is your top priority, then you should sign. If you are wanted out of high school and education is your top priority, then you should go to college.

If baseball is your top priority and you go to college instead of signing, you will then be playing an inferior brand of baseball and a lot less games too. There is no comparison between pro ball and college ball. It is not even close.

College is for education and then you get to play college baseball too. You get a wonderful experience for 4 years and get to learn and grow as a person.

quote:

If you are wanted out of high school and baseball is your top priority, then you should sign. If you are wanted out of high school and education is your top priority, then you should go to college.

If baseball is your top priority and you go to college instead of signing, you will then be playing an inferior brand of baseball and a lot less games too. There is no comparison between pro ball and college ball. It is not even close.

College is for education and then you get to play college baseball too. You get a wonderful experience for 4 years and get to learn and grow as a person.

Great points bbscout! All the posts here have been very insightful and well thought out. Each situation is very different and a lot of prayer should go into each decision. If you put it in God's hands and truly feel led by Him, then whatever the choice is, it is the right choice in my book. That's all I have for now!!! Thanks to everyone for their input. It is truly appreciated.

You know some days I think I understand all this, then other days I realize how LITTLE I know.

I just keep trying to learn and can’t thank those here who are helping me enough.

quote:

Originally posted by HowUbe:
You know some days I think I understand all this, then other days I realize how LITTLE I know.

Don't feel badly, feel the same myself at times.

I agree with bbscout's post. But there are many players who do get a chance to experience both. The main reason for attending college is education, with the added bonus of playing the game you love.
As long as one realizes the road ahead and what are the odds of becoming a MLB player, the pros and cons of playing in college, than it becomes a bit easier to make the decision that is best for that player.

I just had to bring this thread back now, as it pertain's to my son's situation right now.

After reading the post's again.
I'm nominating this thread for a Golden Thread Status.

There is nothing easy about our Son's Decision. Not one little Bit.
But it is one that he has to make on his own.
Sometime's player's are drafted that are just not ready to make that jump yet.
It could be Phisically, are Mentally, or Both.
And also the School they choose could also be as Demanding
Acadimically as going Pro.
There is no right or wrong Answer.

As a Parent I'm going to worry know matter what Happen's.
Are what ever Decision they make.
It's just the Nature of the Beast.
Parent's let's just sit back and enjoy the ride.
Yea, Easier said then Done. OOHH HHAA. EH

College pitch counts are not always posted in the box scores. One school we followed last year, posted pitch counts until they threw a kid 137 pitches on three days rest. (The kid ended up with an ERA over 9.00 for the season.)Miraculously, after that game there were no more pitch counts in the box scores! From a person who went through a bad experience (me), parents of pitchers need to BEWARE. I really don't know that there is any 100% solid advise to avoid overuse. All I remember is that when my kid was recruited, almost to the tee, every college said they had this wonderful history with their pitcher's arms. My question, is why are there so many Tommy John's going on then? My guess is they are going to blame the high school. Most of the abuse I see tends to go on in the Tournaments, would you all agree?

quote:

and just didn't realize how much you really need to think about the future and not the here and now.

From a making a living perspective:

I have heard that it is common practice to have college paid for by the pro team if/when he does not make it to the bigs.

Is that true?

If so, seems like best of both worlds.... I do a lot of hiring for my company at the college grad and higher level (sales and marketing types) making anywhere from $40-$60 with no experience. I always look for life experience plus a college degree vs college degree only.

Thoughts?

I have heard that very, very few pro baseball players ever take advantage of the program and get a degree. Too busy with baseball.

Do they actually have to go for their degree while trying to make it in the big's? Or can they get the $$ written into their contract to have college paid for after they, the team or the individual decide enough is enough?

this may not be 100%accurate but here goes.

every major league team puts money in a fund to be used for school.in our case son was a 2yr juco player so they had in the contract 2 years x that schools tuition.i'm not sure if it needs to be written in but it is a good idea. on the other side if your drafted from harvard after your third year they will try to pay a 4th year at a state school for alot less money.it has to be used within two years of leaving pro baseball. not used very often i'm told.but still nice to be able to get a degree after your done.

I have never seen any stats, but think about this logically. If you play pro ball until Sept, most schools start in August. If they ask the player to play in a fall Instructional League, how would that fit in to your academic calendar? I am assuming a pro team would pay you to play in the fall, but those seasons are not very long. So if a player lives away from home and signs up at a college near where they are playing and if that player has to live away from home for the entire semester who is paying for that? If a player's career ends at 23 or 24, and he doesn't take any classes beforehand, will he start his freshman year at age 24? Some one told me that there are something like only 30 MLB players with college degrees. It sounds like a good financial bargaining tool for MLB that few players ever take advantage of. Maybe I'm wrong but I have never seen any stats like the NCAA publishes.

well, my coach said if you get drafted as a pitcher, he recommends going to the pros so the college coach will not overthrow you and mess up your arm, and if you are drafted as a positional player he recommended going to college. It made sense to me, dont know what you guys think of this

I think your coach has painted with a very wide brush. There are colleges and MLB organizations who overuse pitchers but not all of them. There are colleges and MLB clubs that do a good job of teaching position players but not all of them.

Start with do you want a college education? How much will it cost a club to buy you out of that once in a lifetime opportunity? Then do your homework about the colleges and Mlb clubs.
They all have a history spend some time investigating. That will serve you much better than an overbroad generalization.

One of my friends who has been in the minors for 4 years and had an outstanding year last season says he has arm problems due to over use.
I always wonder how you can get paid and still be eligible for D1 ,D11 ball. I guess you can go to school but not play.
My son worked out with Ron Davis who was the pitching coach for a local pro team. His college coach was very concerned about his eligibility. We had to show he never suited up , got paid and that he only worked out on bull pen day.

Short season ball is also considered rookie ball. Also, don't forget about the 100 % college scholarship that pro baseball gives. Have you done a study lately to see just how many college graduates are in debt above their heads when they graduate from college? That college experience is something that has to be payed for and most college graduates spend a lifetime paying off that 4-5 year experience.

Anyone know the salary for a guy drafted. I heard like $1,100 per month. What does that include? Such as room and board during when they travel?

rookie ball $1150 a month ,depending on where you are you may get a motel room paid.or they have a list of host family's you can contact. stay with them for around $50 or $60 a week.depending on where you are and the team.
as you climb the ladder you get paid more.not a lot more but the love of playing and mlb,that's the carrot.

First of all, do ask for the specifics on the MLB scholarship plan. That's very important. Yes, the team will put money in for you, but sometimes the money is negotiated and given to player. It's usually spent by the time you are done with baseball. You only have two years after you leave baseball to start your education.

Most players do not take advantage of the plan while playing. If they do, it can be done online, and taken a few credits at a time.
However, if you are indecisive about what to do, in my opinion, no internet course ever replaces the full college experience.

Some college students come out of college with debt, some do not. This is something to be discussed with your parents. And, you have to think about the possibility of whether or not at 25,26,27 after not going on to the show, you are ready to begin your college education.

Does anyone know if the new MLB Collective Bargaining Agreement will limit bonuses to draft signees? I know this issue was brought up, but I'm not sure if it is in the final deal or not.

I have heard that established players, who've had to work their way to the top, often resent the large bonuses given to unproven draftees. Since no one at the bargaining table represents potential future draftees, the potential for a capping agreement was certainly there.

Such a cap would sure make it a lot easier to decide to go to college first!

quote:

Some college students come out of college with debt, some do not.

Do some research. It's more than "SOME". A player that elects to sign doesn't have to take college credits on line. There are other options. You can take classes in a fall semester. You can also take classes at a community college. You can also take classes at a university that offers a quarter system and take classes in the winter quarter.

It's a rule (starting within 2 years) to encourage the person to start. There are other options. You can write a letter and ask for an extension. That 2 year rule is not cut in stone as an ONLY.

NO school money is ever payed to the player. Its NOT NEGOTIABLE. What you can do is forgo the college money and take it as part of the bonus. But that would be an increase in the bonus and no college scholarship is attached unless you as the familt/ player invest that portion and ear mark it for school when you do decide to attend.

The college experience is good, sure. But how many of you and how many of your children will pay for a long long time to pay that debt for that experience off. Be honest I'll bet there are college graduates from the 80's here that are still paying for college.

quote:

The college experience is good, sure. But how many of you and how many of your children will pay for a long long time to pay that debt for that experience off. Be honest I'll bet there are college graduates from the 80's here that are still paying for college.

wow, better stick to hitting tips

ya WANT to take the loong road in paying off 2% or 3% loans - - (that's 10th grade economics)
tho - they could be whittled down pretty quick grossing 5-6K per month entry salary

gee, I wonder how regular students (non-athletes) do it


what was that pay during the 4+ months/yr that minor leaguers "work"??
after room & board of course - - $500/mo?



.

quote:

they could be whittled down pretty quick grossing 5-6K per month entry salary

There are many many people with college degree's who do not and will not ever approach this figure.

Turning your back on a free college education to enjoy the experience. You should have to pay 15 %.

quote:

There are many many people with college degree's who do not and will not ever approach this figure.

estimate for me the % of college people who'll never approach $70k/yr,
then compare it with the % of minor league players who'll never approach $70k/yr

are you saying a pro player who never uses his "college plan" should be penalized 15% on his salary??
that'd make his take home $425/mo x 5 months= $2500/yr instead of $3000/yr
Mom's basement can be pretty cold & damp in the off season


wow, you can sell that deal & still look in the mirror?

.

estimate for me the number of people (regular students) with a college degree who make over a million dollars a year,

then compare the number of pro athlete's who do

a college degree is no guarantee. Take the experience and enjoy it if thats what you want to do. There are many many (larger % than you wanta believe) students who are over 100 thousand in debt when they graduate. Take the pro contract if you want as well.

Its a personal choice. There are risk in most everything you do in life. What profession pays you top dollar for being unproven with a college degree. NONE, but yet you wanta be set for life to get a chance at chasing a dream.

and you can't sell that?

An alternative to taking the college scholarhip plan would be to request the equivalent dollars in cash. This might be an alternative since there ARE many time contraints attached to the plan and the value may lapse.
Is that better?

You make it seem like the only way one aquires debt is by going to college. No minor league player making minimum ever aquired debt? How many have come out with debt and not been able to go to school because OF debt and needs to work to pay it off. Yeah he can go to school for free while working, but it will take years!

Can you provide statistics on how many minor league players go to school in their off time (if they get it)? And can you provide statistics with how much they make when they come out (and what they do). NOT former major league players who had money in their pocket and could afford (in more ways than one)to go to school, but former minor league players.

sbuster, I'll assume you have no answer to the previous questions, since you answered them with more questions - - which I'll be happy to answer

quote:

estimate for me the number of people (regular students) with a college degree who make over a million dollars a year,

maybe 1 or 2 tops -

how many strictly average players are on MLB rosters - - zip 0 ... only the very best elite are

you see a regular (or average) student will do ok, but the very best elite students, whether because of brains, ingenuity, or just plain drive & hard work can make a million look like chump change ...
& there are a helluva lot more of them than 40 x 30 teams.
(some of which make minimum/much less than a million)

the logic of your view is bait & switch and/or comparing unlike products


.

if a guy signed to a minor league contract is THAT elite how can you justify letting him bring home $500/month after taxes room & board ... how much is left after car insurance & gas?? if he IS elite, why is he not viewed that way by his employer?

I'm sure you have the numbers & have laid it out for many a young man ... so feel free


.

Our son has been in pro ball long enough to see many of his buddies hang up the cleats and move in new directions. One is now coaching at the college level and working on his Masters, another is going into law enforcement, another is selling pharmacuticals, another is going into the ministry.

I honestly can't think of anyone he's played with who is not pursuing some kind of professional career since leaving the sport. Many eventually complete their degrees with or without the help of the MLB plan.

We even know of several major leaguers who have set up second career opportunities in preparation for their future after ball. One has his real estate license, another owns several batting facilities, and another owns a restuarant.

I think the guys that leave the minors and never complete their degree and/or enter a professional field probably wouldn't have done so even if they hadn't played baseball. It's all a matter of goals and work ethic.

Txmom,
Good post.
I think that times have changed. More and more players are getting better advice on finding careers after baseball. Being encouraged to begin college while still playing baseball. College drafted players encouraged to return to their schools to finish their degrees as quickly as possible.

I think that you will agree, though baseball is life to many, many are finding out there is life after baseball.

However, a drafted player should never be sold on signing just because MLB has a scholarship program. Or he should not be encouraged to sign just because his college experience will aquire debt. JMO.

I agree that the MLB college plan shouldn't be the deciding factor when signing, but it can be part of the package for consideration.

We wanted the plan included in our son's contract to serve as an incentive down the road. We negotiated for enough to cover 3 full semesters including room and board, which would allow him to complete his degree. Some of the money has already been used by MLB for his playing incentives which come out of the college fund and tuition costs have gone up, but there's still a chunk of money waiting for him if he ever wants to use it.

With that being said, if he chooses to do something else with his life when the time comes, it will be his choice to make.

So that is a good question, to Sign or College?

My brother who is a senior this year has signed to play for Nebraska already last fall and now there are MLB scouts coming to all his games wanting to know how much it would take to get him to sign. This is a very odd situation because our family doesnt have the experience in this to know what is the best way to go. Hes been told he could be a 5th or 6th round pick. So just when we thought things were getting easier after signing with Nebraska last year, things are getting more complicated and stressfull with this MLB draft stuff.

Any recommendations would be great.

Thanks

Nate,
If your brother wants to play pro ball, sign, the money should be secondary to the decision.
If your brother wants to go to college, then don't sign and be honest with the scouts.
It's pretty early for any good scout to tell a player what round he may be drafted, the draft is not until June. And the scout does not draft the player, his organization does.
Just tell him to play his best, be honest and follow his heart, and all good things will fall into place.

I agree with what TPM posted,
I know of several players who said a scout told them they would be drafted in the 3rd to 5th rd. They wanted to go pro but they were never drafted.
What I think happens is a scout tells a player we see you as a 3rd to 5th round talent.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
I agree with what TPM posted,
I know of several players who said a scout told them they would be drafted in the 3rd to 5th rd. They wanted to go pro but they were never drafted.
What I think happens is a scout tells a player we see you as a 3rd to 5th round talent.

The scout may see you in that round, not necessarily his boss.

Each MLB team has scouts in various parts of the country---how many are seeing kids that 3rd to 5th round material and then telling them that?

It is the main bosses who take the info, digest it and then make the choice

This is something that really bothers me. Scouts and advisors coming to kids homes and telling them they see them going in such and such round is wrong. Am I wrong to assume that scouts have NO idea until draft day (after players name is called) what exactly will happen?

Why don't they just say, I see you as a first day pick?

My son has been through the process once, now again. NO scout has ever told him directly where he sees him in the draft. And, IMO, it's wrong for an advisor at this time of year, to give his impression to the player of where the player he wants to represent later on will fall in the draft.

You tell a prospect he looks like a 3rd-5th draft pick and then he gets drafted in the 14th round, player is gonna be pretty upset if he beleives what he was told.

I may be wrong but that's just the way I see it, NO ONE can tell anyone where they are going to fall in the draft, especially in March.

It is a very complex decision for some, and extremely simple for others (to go pro or college). I don't think it's a problem to guess a round a player may go in, but the player and parents need to know that it is merely a guess and neither the scout nor advisor really knows.

Some would want to know if they are "projected" to be in the upper rounds or lower to help in their decision for college or pros. The guessing has to take place to do this. Most parents and players have no ability to guess, therefore the advisor and possibly scout feedback can come into play.

I cannot imagine a player projected in the first three rounds being surprised by the selection. I can't also imagine the major league team not knowing there is a good chance of signing them. This would just be too much risk on the club.

It does get harder rounds 4 - 10 where there is still pretty good money. However, little is set in stone. I heard of a 35th rounder being offered $400,000 last draft to not play in college.

The player would be doing well to continue with plans to go to college and if drafted can decide if pro ball is preffered over college. Money is just one consideration.

In summary, I think it is very appropriate for an advisor to assess the player and communicate a guess on the draft round. However, the player and parents should be told and aware the advisor and even scouts have no real control over the draft process.

The players I mentioned were talking to part time scouts and when some players are given a projection of their level of talent, they take that to mean they are going to be drafted in that round
I think the higher the round the better the information, you would be talking with Area Supervisors,Cross checkers, Scouting dirctors etc. not a part time scout

Don't listen to the NONSENSE on this board about 35th round players being offered $350-400,000. While a 1st round talent who has fallen because an organization believed he was not signable might be offered a substantial sum...that is a HUGELY RARE EXCEPTION and not the rule.

Typical for the 35th round...No bonus; plane ticket; and, $1150.00 per month for 3 months. You pay for everything else.

99% of what you hear about bonuses in later rounds, after the 10th round, is BS.

Most draft choices are out of baseball within 3 years.

quote:

Originally posted by BeenthereIL:

Typical for the 35th round...No bonus; plane ticket; and, $1150.00 per month for 3 months. You pay for everything else.

Beenthere, - you forgot about the nice bag of bananas they receive. Usually Chiquita brand.

After reading the subsequent posts, I need to clarify for those not familiar with the draft process. The player offered money in the 35th would have had to have MLB approval to get it. It never got that far. Secondly, the player is a football/baseball player that is an incredible athlete at a front-line program. Thirdly, the posters are correct, usually the claim of a lot of money out of slot is "BS." Lastly, I never verified the truth of the offer -- it was told to me by his father.

However, I'm sticking by my position that a top prospect will and should have his round predicted. The problem is there are 90 people taken in the first three rounds (not include sandwich rounds) and maybe 900 who expect to be.

If you look at the Baseball America comments by round, a player with more comments tends to be drafted higher than those who are not in the database or who have few notes. Last two drafts the first three rounds had significant notes compared to subsequent, lower rounds. I'm saying this, because if you think your player is a first three round pick and Baseball America doesn't know who they are -- it is unlikely.

quote:

Originally posted by Tiger Paw Mom:
I may be wrong but that's just the way I see it, NO ONE can tell anyone where they are going to fall in the draft, especially in March.

This is mostly true.

Except for maybe the first 10 picks of the draft, everything else is extremely variable. It all depends on who is available in what round.

That means that a guy could be moved up or slip down depending on what team is looking at him. One team's upper rounder is another team's lower rounder.

About the best that you can honestly tell someone is whether they are an upper rounder or a lower rounder.

quote:

Originally posted by njbb:
I think the higher the round the better the information, you would be talking with Area Supervisors,Cross checkers, Scouting dirctors etc. not a part time scout

This is correct.

Drafting involves a lot of negotiation, with each cross checker having his set of favorites and everyone weighing in on each other's list. The Scouting Director and General Manager then trump everyone else.

Nobody below the level of area supervisor or cross checker is going to have much of a clue about how things are going to fall out on draft day, and they can only have a sense of the order. Even the SD or GM can't say for sure since things change depending on who picks who and when.

If one has good grades there options are great-but think about this, lets say you have a legit shot in terms of being drafted and brought into the minors, think of this, you could have the option of playing minor league ball and maybe, maybe playing pros, or you could take the college route, play for a great college team, hopefully having strong academics, if youre good enough earning a cheap education, maybe being drafted later, and even if you're not drafted later you still can say I played college baseball at the D1 level for a great team, also having a degree in your hand (keep in mind this 1 specific example), but just play these different scenarios in your head

I decided to bump this thread up, getting to be that time of the year.

I found it to be informative and may interest some new members, should they be in this situation. It is a good read, and relates to today as it did a few years back.

You can have both if you play your cards right.My son is going through the samething.We are very pro education and he has a scholarship to a very good baseball school.He also may get a very good offer to play in the minors.What we are being told is we can have his education provided on the backside.The catch is you have to use it within so many years & most kids don't.So you can have your cake and eat it too.

My biggest fear is not knowing what you can & can not say to these advisors & scouts so you don't violate NCAA rules.I hear a lot of horror stories.Does anyone have any advise on that.

quote:

What we are being told is we can have his education provided on the backside.The catch is you have to use it within so many years & most kids don't.So you can have your cake and eat it too.

MICSTER,
Welcome to the HSBBW.
Sounds like your son is one terrific player. I sure won't be the first on this site hoping and wishing for the very best for him, and you, over the next few months leading up to June and possibly the period from June to 8/15/11.
You may well know this.
The educational costs, even if they are never paid, are often included in the teams values for the bonus that gets paid. So, even a $500,000 bonus might not be that after taxes if some or a lot of it might be for the MLB scholarship allocation.
Additionally, the teams are not usually saying they will pay the education. I believe the MLB education plan needs to start being used within 2 years of the end of MLB baseball.
Whenever that occurs, tuition and college costs are likely to be much higher than they are now.
The MLB education can be negotiated. Don't be surprised to see the team starting any offers with the education to be paid stated in current dollars, not future tuition, and you might also see it limited to tuition, with room/board/books and all the incidentals not being paid.
The amount allocated for education can be substantial, but it might not frost a big cake, if you get my drift.
But you can also attempt to negotiate more frosting. When you are working with a very good baseball scholarship at a school that wants you and your son wants them, the worst MLB can say is no. If MLB wants the player enough, they will let you and your son know about the frosting.

quote:

Originally posted by MICSTER:
My biggest fear is not knowing what you can & can not say to these advisors & scouts so you don't violate NCAA rules.I hear a lot of horror stories.Does anyone have any advise on that.

You can say whatever you like, you just can't have a professional agent say it for you.

Just to reinterate what infielddad has said, in 2007 my son was awarded by his drafting team, enough dollars in the MLB scholarship fund for 32 credit hours (no living expenses) to finish his degree. The tuition has since increased about 10K. Plus, due to the mlb incentive bonus plan he has LOST money in his account. This means that each time he moved up a level and remained for 90 days or more he lost money in his scholarship fund.
Fortunetly he has taken money from his bonus and put away enough for him to finish at the school he attended without having to work while going to class.
Negotiating for anything will be much easier if they want you badly enough, and that would probably mean being an early pick.
While I beleive that this is a personal decision, remember who will benefit by giving you certain information.
Keep in mind that milb salary is not enough to put away and save for a rainy day, and yes it is going to be VERY difficult to begin school after 5-6 years of being out of it and most likely, unless there was a significant signing bonus, it won't be enough to cover 4-5 years of tuition room and board (as infielddad told you) without working to subsidize.

Thanks so much for the feedback,it was very helpful.

The MLB Scholarship program can be quite confusing.

Here is link to an overview of the MLB Scholarship Program that I found helpful when our son went through this a few years ago. I believe the program hasn't change however I could be mistaken. If nothing else... it should provide answers to many questions.

MLB Scholarship Program

While in my son's case the scholarship program was kept completely separate from his signing bonus, it's interesting to hear that some clubs include that as part of the signing bonus... not sure how that would work?


Good luck!

Hi!
Our son retired from MLB last year and has been using his scholarship money to return to school. His team provided 3 semesters for up to $5000 each semester in his original contract, which was what he needed to complete his degree back in 2002. Half of that was given to him in bonuses as he advanced through the minors. He ended up with 3 semesters for up to $2500 each in his account when he retired. Thankfully, he invested a significant amount of his signing bonus and still has those funds available for living expenses, mortgage, etc. as he pursues his new career.

My advise would be to negotiate a minimal amount in the scholarship fund with a higher bonus. Use a portion of the bonus to set up an accessible college investment account for future needs. I have a feeling that our son's club would not have given him less scholarship money for more bonus, but its worth asking about.

What a fantastic thread.

I just went throught the latest version of baseball america's transactions list.

I focused on who got released. A few were striking.

a 2009 high PG ranked hs C who was drafted in a round that was not unreasonable to sign. Got 60 AB a for 2009 and about the same for 2010. His BA was far better than Steve Baron's who was drafted the same year who was a early round pick and highly paid.

Released none-the-less.

I think the question to ask a scout is not how much money am I going to get but "am I the 200 AB a season guy or am I the 60 AB a season guy"

playfair keep in mind that releases are also due to business decisions only.

For example, if there are many good catchers in front of that player, I only feel it fair for a release, that allows the player to seek other options. Also keep in mind that the guy they gave more money to is usually going to get more chances to fail.
Also keep in mind that the BA or ERA may have nothing to do with the release.
JMO.

tpm, you are absolutely correct. it was just a striking observation to me.

the kid that was released was very highly touted in his hs class by pg. i was so surprised. i have no idea how much the club invested or where he was at on the depth chart.

i should look into that. and i have no idea of his defense skill level (which should really matter for the position)

I was just recently looking closely at the kind of chances and opportunities the rounds 15-30 guys get vs. the rounds 4-14 guys.

Just a thought but it is unusual for a team to release a player so soon. There may be circumstances you aren't aware of. I am not saying that is necessarily a bad thing.

I don't think that many realize that just like college, a pro team can be a bad fit for the player. That is why I personally feel that unless the HS player gets a very nice chunk of change he should not give up his college eligibility. Those 15 and up round players have an opportunity to mature and even become better picks.

Just an observation.

i see what you mean.