Every now and again these threads come along that just won't die. While statistically very interesting (thanks CADad) it means nothing to those who read because it is too late.
Now when Julie starts BBBW (Babies Baseball Web) then this should be the super golden thread!
Will you put me in NOW coach!
That baby is beautiful!!!!!!
Put him in school when he is 6!
ps. Is that Mater Dei?
Put him in school when he is 6!
ps. Is that Mater Dei?
TPM,
Exactly. The coaches could care less about anything but how good are you now, how much are you likely to improve and how likely are you to be able to handle the life of a college baseball player.
I think we just agreed.
Exactly. The coaches could care less about anything but how good are you now, how much are you likely to improve and how likely are you to be able to handle the life of a college baseball player.
I think we just agreed.
Playfair,
I wasn't going that far. I was going with waiting on the fall and late summer birthdays, but there's no hard cutoff in my mind.
I'll agree that the graduation age is not of significance to the one's doing the recruiting except in rare cases. Some of these guys are pretty smart though and there are instances where they'll look for the younger kids for their grade as walk-on recruits because they can get a talented kid at a bargain price.
I wasn't going that far. I was going with waiting on the fall and late summer birthdays, but there's no hard cutoff in my mind.
I'll agree that the graduation age is not of significance to the one's doing the recruiting except in rare cases. Some of these guys are pretty smart though and there are instances where they'll look for the younger kids for their grade as walk-on recruits because they can get a talented kid at a bargain price.
BOF,
I thought you said as a result of this thread your son was going to go train in the Dominican for a year to improve his draft standing?
I thought you said as a result of this thread your son was going to go train in the Dominican for a year to improve his draft standing?
quote:Originally posted by playfair:
That baby is beautiful!!!!!!
Put him in school when he is 6!
ps. Is that Mater Dei?
Come on now don't you get the point! He will start kindegarden when he is 9. Makes him a freshmen at 18, and a STUD All League Sr at 22.
He is cute, have no idea who the team is. psssst....it is a secret....don't tell anyone he is a "google baby"
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:quote:Originally posted by Hot Corner Dad:
TPM,
Yes, there are occasions when a freshman starts over an older player, but if Baseball America can be believed it is rare.
In their Top 25 released this week BA published the expected starting lineups for each team and four leading pitchers. Out of 325 starting positions, only 25 were expected to be held by freshman (13%). Older and stronger still wins the day in most cases.
Hot Corner,
I completely disagree with your reasoning.
Accepting BA as "gospel" is a major mistake. In fact, I canceled my subscription after their 2009 predictions because they had information on players that was fundamentally just wrong. They had right handed hitters listed as lefties, guys who threw 88 to 91 listed as "soft tossers" and the like.
But more importantly, as TPM suggests, college coaches don't often "give" starting spots to freshman based on Fall ball. They would lose all credibility with upper classmen to do that.
College coaches will almost always provide the upper class player the opportunity to start the season and play his way into or out of the line up. The freshman has to "earn" his way into the lineup when he gets a chance.
What is posted as the lineup in January often times is very different than the start of the lineup for the first conference game.
Look at Stanford this season. Their head coach was interviewed last week and has no freshman listed as his current starters. Their freshman class is unanimously viewed as one of the top 5 nationally.
I would be willing to bet that by the first Pac10 game(about 4 weeks into the season), 2-3 freshman pitchers will receive major innings and 3 position players will start.
Top college coaches don't pay any attention to what is in BA or the line up in January. Not sure why you would in this thread.
Okay, TPM and Infielddad make good points that using projections of the 2010 season to determine how many freshmen are going to start over veterans is just guessing. So, I took the end of year stats for the eight teams that made the College World Series and looked at their primary 13 starters (4 pitchers included main weekend starters and closer).
Of the 104 positions, 19 were held by freshmen at the end of the year. That would be 18%, which is more than the 13% projected by BA's Top 25 lineups. Still, the occurrence of freshmen starting over older players remains less than one in five.
quote:Of the 104 positions, 19 were held by freshmen at the end of the year. That would be 18%, which is more than the 13% projected by BA's Top 25 lineups. Still, the occurrence of freshmen starting over older players remains less than one in five.
Not sure I understand the point, as it relates to this thread. You are assuming a freshman is "older" and, as I understand the point of this thread, the freshman may have been held back and may actually be older than some sophomores.
Even if they are older, for the 8 best teams to have 18% freshman in their top 13 in Omaha, that would have been more than I expected for the teams at that level.
Whatever it is, my personal view is and continues to be the biggest transition and struggle for freshman isn't physical ability or graduation age. It is the mental transition to college baseball.
No matter what their graduation age in recruiting, very few college freshman have experienced the mental adjustments that are required that 1st year.
Many make the transition but surely do it at varying rates of transition. Some just don't make the transition to what mentally is required to get it done in the classroom, on the field, and everyplace in between.
And of course some 18 year olds get drafted and head to Milb where they play and compete and live with players anywhere from 2-4 years older.
quote:very few college freshman have experienced the mental adjustments that are required that 1st year.
Many make the transition but surely do it at varying rates of transition. Some just don't make the transition to what mentally is required to get it done in the classroom, on the field, and everyplace in between.
I just could not agree more......
Of the many kids that we know that went off to college this year several have struggled. And they have struggled in different places.... homesick, time management, rigid academic requirements, going from the top of the pile on the field to the bottom of the pile, .... it really seems to be mental struggles more than physical but some kids are having trouble. A few we know have come home and are now hitting the JC rosters.
You are using a sampling of the top 25 in the country, the top 8 teams in Omaha. Also take into consideration how many frosh WOULD be there that were signed at those schools but they were drafted and went pro out of HS.
If this what this is all about, not making a college roster of the top 25 teams in the country or playing where you want because you had to compete against older players, that's not realistic. Chances are you most likely one wouldn't make it there regardless of your age.
How about this, I am not ready yet for that experience, regardless I am a lot younger, go wher eyou will play, despite it not being on your top list and get an education, that's what it's about anyway, isn't it.
Good point brought up before, keep your kids back from starting K because they are a bit immature to sit or concentrate for long periods or attend school from 8 in the morning until 2 in the afternoon, not because in 13 years they might not get into bb program of their liking.
JMO.
If this what this is all about, not making a college roster of the top 25 teams in the country or playing where you want because you had to compete against older players, that's not realistic. Chances are you most likely one wouldn't make it there regardless of your age.
How about this, I am not ready yet for that experience, regardless I am a lot younger, go wher eyou will play, despite it not being on your top list and get an education, that's what it's about anyway, isn't it.
Good point brought up before, keep your kids back from starting K because they are a bit immature to sit or concentrate for long periods or attend school from 8 in the morning until 2 in the afternoon, not because in 13 years they might not get into bb program of their liking.
JMO.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Some of these guys are pretty smart though and there are instances where they'll look for the younger kids for their grade as walk-on recruits because they can get a talented kid at a bargain price.
How do you know this? Did they tell you this or is this another thing you have got figured out?
I agree with BOF, pretty far for a topic to go when it is a bit too late. I doubt that there are many pregnant parents out there reading the HSBBW to take advice.
But then again I hear people these days are beginning very, very early in planning their son's baseball future.
quote:Originally posted by baseballfam4:
one of his friends,... is a freshman... and is getting his drivers license next week!!
Last week, Pennsylvania ruled a basketball player ineligible because he will turn 20 before he graduates. My son will be 20 when he's a senior... in college.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
I agree with BOF, pretty far for a topic to go when it is a bit too late. I doubt that there are many pregnant parents out there reading the HSBBW to take advice.
I know we didn't read it. We started our son in Kinder when he was 4.
Course, neither his Mom nor I were baseball educated, having never even gone near a baseball field.
Baseball "smarts" parents here are a little more extreme - they just take 2 years off their son's birth certificate. That way it doesn't matter what age he starts school.
TPM,
Yes, a D1 coach told me that.
Yes, a D1 coach told me that.
I agree there is reality in collge recruiting, but you seem to often come up with the negative stuff.
Not sure who told you this, and I may be wrong, but talented players are offered scholarships, has nothing to do with being young or not. I can't see a coach sifting through birthdates to figure who is younger just so he can offer a walk on opportunity.
According to what Sully told me, he pays no attention to birthdates, now if that player is older, it might just be a coincidence and would appear to you that older players get more opportunities. I doubt very much he is considering who he will offer based on who is older.
FWIW, Danny Moskos (from california) I do believe was the youngest (April) of his college freshman class, a 4th pick of the draft in 2007.
Not sure who told you this, and I may be wrong, but talented players are offered scholarships, has nothing to do with being young or not. I can't see a coach sifting through birthdates to figure who is younger just so he can offer a walk on opportunity.
According to what Sully told me, he pays no attention to birthdates, now if that player is older, it might just be a coincidence and would appear to you that older players get more opportunities. I doubt very much he is considering who he will offer based on who is older.
FWIW, Danny Moskos (from california) I do believe was the youngest (April) of his college freshman class, a 4th pick of the draft in 2007.
quote:keep your kids back from starting K because they are a bit immature to sit or concentrate for long periods or attend school from 8 in the morning until 2 in the afternoon, not because in 13 years they might not get into bb program of their liking.
The pre-K hold back is the right time to do it but not for sports.... for maturity. Being good at a sport is a side benefit for some.
I know two kids who repeated 8th grade for baseball purposes.
Neither needed to do it for grades. And I would not suggest it based on how it worked out for each. It absolutely did not help the one at all... He just was never going to be a big kid and lacked the work ethic and attention to detail to make his medium frame produce bigger than its size.
The other kid, the straight A guy, I think it hurt. He was huge and was already the oldest in his class... They did the baseball hold back so that he could dominate early. And that he did. But by the time the 19 year old was a junior in hs he was less projectable, and just really good, not totally dominating. So what everyone saw as a drop in his skill level was really just other kids who were physically maturing catch up. He fell of the map a bit. I think he would have gotten into a top 5 program and had better draft stock had he just gone to hs on schedule and steadily improved instead of dominance and leveling off.
Both times the hold back did not work out really well.
It would be my opinion that if someone wanted to get a little bigger, older and stronger to help him get into his dream school I would suggest they attend a good JC. Not lock themselves up for an extended stretch and work to get into the dream school.
To improve draft stock you need to excel at the majority of the 5 tools plus have projectability. If you can do that, you can do that anywhere.
Good post playfair.
You can't hold a child back (not talking starting school later but during) unless there is a good reason to, so how do these parents do it if they had good grades)?
You can't hold a child back (not talking starting school later but during) unless there is a good reason to, so how do these parents do it if they had good grades)?
TPM,
Can you prove my point any better. You bring up a player who is much older for his grade than anyone I'm talking about and then tell me that he was one of the youngest in his class on his college team.
Can you prove my point any better. You bring up a player who is much older for his grade than anyone I'm talking about and then tell me that he was one of the youngest in his class on his college team.
quote:so how do these parents do it if they had good grades)?
They state personal reasons and do a year of "home school"
CADad,
Was he much older for the start dates in California or for his actual graduating class?
You got to remember, what is young where you are may be older for another state and voce versa. Here in FL that april birthday makes you younger than your classmates with fall birthdays. It also did for the 2004 graduation class which included 85 and 86's.
I don't get your point, maybe I am missing something.
Was he much older for the start dates in California or for his actual graduating class?
You got to remember, what is young where you are may be older for another state and voce versa. Here in FL that april birthday makes you younger than your classmates with fall birthdays. It also did for the 2004 graduation class which included 85 and 86's.
I don't get your point, maybe I am missing something.
My point is I'm talking about the kids in California with the same birthdate as your son waiting so they they're in the same grade as your son. I'm not suggesting that a kid who has an April or even May birthday get another whole year advantage. I'm simply talking about the kids in California and other states with the "bad" start dates starting their kids on the same schedule as Florida and other states with the "good" start dates.
Then your advice isn't applicable to everyone only those with bad start dates?
I guess you will have to take that up with the State of California.
BTW, did you know that my son and justbaseball's son graduated the same year, that meant that his son and mine had to compete in recruiting. Our sons were recruited at many of the same programs. Erik is almost one year younger than David. Did that hurt Erik?
Someone is always going to be older, someone is always going to be younger, will it make a difference, maybe, maybe not. For those with bad start dates (being younger), why not just attend a JUCO to get where you want to get to.
I guess you will have to take that up with the State of California.
BTW, did you know that my son and justbaseball's son graduated the same year, that meant that his son and mine had to compete in recruiting. Our sons were recruited at many of the same programs. Erik is almost one year younger than David. Did that hurt Erik?
Someone is always going to be older, someone is always going to be younger, will it make a difference, maybe, maybe not. For those with bad start dates (being younger), why not just attend a JUCO to get where you want to get to.
alright guys (i am assuming) I am going to throw in a great article into your debate..... It is from 2008 (and took me a few minutes to find it). I think after you read it might change your mind as to what the really important date in your youngsters life is.
The Boys of Late Summer
http://www.slate.com/id/2188866/
The Boys of Late Summer
http://www.slate.com/id/2188866/
quote:Originally posted by playfair:
alright guys (i am assuming) I am going to throw in a great article into your debate..... It is from 2008 (and took me a few minutes to find it). I think after you read it might change your mind as to what the really important date in your youngsters life is.
The Boys of Late Summer
http://www.slate.com/id/2188866/
Thank you for this article playfair - this has been exactly my argument the whole time so I now rest my case!!! Aug, Sept, Oct b-days represent the older kids in their class that are isolated at an early age from their peers and given more opportunity to get better year after year leading into high school (elite travel teams, more higher level coaching, etc, etc,).
quote:Aug, Sept, Oct b-days represent the older kids in their class that are isolated at an early age from their peers and given more opportunity
you are on the right track but not exactly.....
Aug, Sept, Oct birthdays were always the oldest in their Little League division and thus were elevated at an early age vs. May June July league age counterparts. Late summer b-days litter All-Star teams.
However, those same Aug, Sept, Oct. kids that went to school at late 4 or a young 5 years old even with the good league age are at a clear disadvantage than their late Fall - Spring counterparts who did not start school until they were late 5 or early 6 years old.
There are exceptions like the very early physical maturer, or the very late physical maturer but the older or bigger kids really do get to establish themselves first.
I do think there is an evening out eventually. But, the evening out happens at physical maturity and that is genetic based and has zero to do with league age or graduation age.
I will say that kids who start school late are also at an advantage over their peers in regards to developing better maturity, confidence and a sense of self esteem.
After 24 pages I am still trying to figure out what this actually has to do with anything a player can do? So parents should hold their kids back? Make sure they have a kid in August? Make sure they are the oldest kid in their class?
Maybe I am just slow.
Maybe I am just slow.
no coach may, i stepped in on page 23 saying it was a huge combination of skill, league age, grade age, level of physical maturity, genetics etc. etc. etc.
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
After 24 pages I am still trying to figure out what this actually has to do with anything a player can do? So parents should hold their kids back? Make sure they have a kid in August? Make sure they are the oldest kid in their class?
Maybe I am just slow.
You are not slow.
For starters, thanks playfair for posting that article. I have been consistent in this thread in acknowledging that age can be an advantage, but I am surprised by those numbers. Notice that there are still big leaguers born in every month however.
Here is an alternative solution to planned pregnancies or holding kids back....
Take a long term view on things. Forget about instant gratification because baseball is a lifelong quest that cannot ever be completely mastered. Ted Williams was the last one to hit .400 in 1941 so he was only successful 40% of the time.
My son was born in July, and as I said earlier, I believe he has upside in his game because of it. Upside that is not recognized by the casual observer. The disadvantage has become the advantage. You should read all the minor league scouting reports where they downgrade kids for being too old for their league.
Kids who are stuggling to make their high school teams because of age and/or physical immaturity, perhaps a juco strategy is a good one. Perhaps the best strategy is to learn how to outwork the guy who is "presently" more physically "gifted." Learn how to do this and perhaps the tortise beats the hare in the long run and the ugly duckly becomes the beautiful swan. Most importantly, take joy in your own accomplishments and hard work. Leave lamenting about someone elses advantage(s) to someone else. Life is way too short and there is way too much fun to be had even if you find youself at a present "disadvantage." It does not have to remain that way. Do something constructive about it while having fun.
quote:After 24 pages I am still trying to figure out what this actually has to do with anything a player can do?
Coach ... was the discussion ever about what can the player do? 24 pages later it's gone full circle. The point is that as the "Outlier" book detailed, circumstances (not in the hands of the individual ... in this case birth date) can have a dramatic affect on how things turn out. Birth date in American youth sports, and early maturation are huge advantages. What you see here is Parents of those kids saying, NO, that had nothing to do with it, my player was just more skilled. When you know darn good and well, if you ever coachd a 13-15U Travel team, that you went after those biologically older kids (they may or may not have also had earlier birth dates) because they were stronger, more advanced thus "perceived" as more skilled. I will say it again, not necessarily more skilled BUT biologically and perhaps also chronologically advanced.
It is what it is. If they, the younger ones & perhaps late maturers, stay in athletics it does even out when puberty is completed. That swing at say 14, can be as much as four years (i.e., they can be chronlogically 12 - 16 yrs. old). Now that is huge because as evidence shows, even one year can matter at earlier ages.
Now what are people/parents doing; they are starting there kids later!! Also, school systems are encouraging it, both for maturity and athletic reasons. My son's friend, Dad just pulled him out of school last year, as a Sophmore, and sent him down to IMG Academy in Fla to do nothing but play baseball for a year. He came back this year, still a Sophmore. A 6'3" lefty pitcher, do you think his athletic opportunities might benefit from that strategy? Not saying it's right but as a result of the "evidence" that stuff is happening ALL the time. My son has a November birthday and will be 18 this year at graduation and is one of the youngest amongst his athletic teammates.
Don't buy that. Son played in a league (Khoury) where the calendar year determined where you played. Because of different dates on entering school, that made my son one of the youngest born in October for over 5 years until he was 13. It certainly didn't hurt him when younger to develop the skills needed to compete. He always was in the line up.
In FL august birthdays make you one of the younger ones in your class.
Again I see no reason not to hold a child back from starting K for reasons that are apparant to his maturity. I don't agree with holding kids back later for athletic purposes. Regardless, it can place a stigma upon you, one that could follow you for awhile. JMO.
I guess if everyone planned accordingly, there will no reason for JUCO or prep athletic programs.
The only thing I disagree with is placing blame that one player didn't get his choice school because there were older players who did. Work hard to deal with the heand you were dealt, it's not that bigger players fault he was born earlier that you.
In FL august birthdays make you one of the younger ones in your class.
Again I see no reason not to hold a child back from starting K for reasons that are apparant to his maturity. I don't agree with holding kids back later for athletic purposes. Regardless, it can place a stigma upon you, one that could follow you for awhile. JMO.
I guess if everyone planned accordingly, there will no reason for JUCO or prep athletic programs.
The only thing I disagree with is placing blame that one player didn't get his choice school because there were older players who did. Work hard to deal with the heand you were dealt, it's not that bigger players fault he was born earlier that you.
quote:I don't agree with holding kids back later for athletic purposes. Regardless, it can place a stigma upon you, one that could follow you for awhile. JMO.
JMO, too..
I agree with playfair.
My older son(Fall birthday) is seen for his projectability,we have heard this a few times and since he has built relationships with coaches since soph. year they have seen the continued progress in skills and work ehic.Great grades too.They do comment on how much they like that.My younger son's teammate who skipped a year after 8th grade (and is driving as a freshman...I still can't get over that) said he repeated because he wanted to grow(mature)more.He's still the same size!!But, I think the parents felt the would be a better chance to make the HS team. As parents you always want to do whats best for your child, who can blame them. However, there is a growing trend in all sports, in this area, of parents doing the "holding back" after 8th grade,regardless of how old they are to begin with!
My older son(Fall birthday) is seen for his projectability,we have heard this a few times and since he has built relationships with coaches since soph. year they have seen the continued progress in skills and work ehic.Great grades too.They do comment on how much they like that.My younger son's teammate who skipped a year after 8th grade (and is driving as a freshman...I still can't get over that) said he repeated because he wanted to grow(mature)more.He's still the same size!!But, I think the parents felt the would be a better chance to make the HS team. As parents you always want to do whats best for your child, who can blame them. However, there is a growing trend in all sports, in this area, of parents doing the "holding back" after 8th grade,regardless of how old they are to begin with!
baseballfam4,
Is your 2010 with a fall birthday 18 or 17? If he's 18 then in TPM's definition you unfairly held him back unless it was purely for academic/social reasons. Of course since the maturity and the sports tend to be related it is almost never done purely for that reason in a sports family. Oh, I guess it is alright to do it if you are in a state which has the earlier start dates and then move to CA, but it isn't OK to do it if you are in CA.
Is your 2010 with a fall birthday 18 or 17? If he's 18 then in TPM's definition you unfairly held him back unless it was purely for academic/social reasons. Of course since the maturity and the sports tend to be related it is almost never done purely for that reason in a sports family. Oh, I guess it is alright to do it if you are in a state which has the earlier start dates and then move to CA, but it isn't OK to do it if you are in CA.
quote:Then your advice isn't applicable to everyone only those with bad start dates?
I guess you will have to take that up with the State of California.
That's right only for those with the bad start dates as I've been saying all along and no we don't have to take it up with the State of California because the dates are "start no younger than" dates. Parents are allowed to wait.
Month of Birth Determines Who Becomes a Sports Star
Thought I'd add this but didn't want to bump up the thread.
CADAD-
My 2010 is a 17 year old grad. Started young.
My 2013 is going to be a 18 year old grad.
Both have Fall birthdays, older 2010 son started public kinder at 4 and younger 2013 son started private at 5,which in private school is mandatory.
My 2010 is a 17 year old grad. Started young.
My 2013 is going to be a 18 year old grad.
Both have Fall birthdays, older 2010 son started public kinder at 4 and younger 2013 son started private at 5,which in private school is mandatory.
Add Reply
Sign In To Reply