Significance of graduation age in recruiting?

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don't you agree that he has an unfair advantage over the kid who has an August birthday that entered the grade as the designated age set by the school system? Why does the school district set up ages for a child to enter school if the parent can just arbitarily choose when he or she can enter?

Brick, I guess I don't defer what I believe is in the best interests of my child to what "the system" decides I should do. Why would it be "unfair" if other parents have the opportunity to make the same decision?

And do you think parents "arbitrarily" decide things like this for their kids? Do you? Our decision was hardly arbitrary, nor was it ever even an issue with anybody throughout his schooling.

It sounds as if we differ. I think the parents are responsible for their children, and make better decisions for their welfare than school districts.

Talk about arbitrary! What is more arbitrary than to set, as you suggest, hard and fast age criteria for very young children as to when they must enter school! And then, what, tell parents they are FORCED to send their children at that specified age, or else what?

Sounds like you trust these institutions a heck of a lot more than I do to decide where my child "belongs."

And no, I have never had any problem looking anyone in the eye.

Where I live, the private schools will suggest that "late summer birthday" children wait a year to enter. It is common at the elementary school where my children attended to retain between 20-25% of the kindergarten class. (I know this for a fact...I worked there.) If you add to this the children that delayed entering kindergarden, that is a pretty good percentage of students entering their senior year as 18 year olds. Is this wrong? No. But, I did hear from a good friend, that is a director of a pre-school, who had a parent tell her that he was haaving his preschooler repeat a year specifically so he could have an advantage in sports. More may do this, but rarely do they SAY it! Since basketball was brought up, on my DS middle school basketball team, I know of 3 8th graders that have repeated a year or started late. One is a stud, one is very good, and the other mostly sits the bench. I think having a few additional months age when you are 10-14 will make a bigger difference than when they are 17-18. Some just have a better athletic ability.

[quote]on't you agree that he has an unfair advantage over the kid who has an August birthday that entered the grade as the designated age set by the school system? Why does the school district set up ages for a child to enter school if the parent can just arbitarily choose when he or she can enter?


Wow. To me it is a parents right to decide when their child should start school. Where we live many boys esp. start later when they have late birthdays.Especially since kindergarten went to all day.What unfair advantage does kid have? Are you just talking sports? Because at the private schools in the bay area where it is very competitve, many parents are waiting to have their kids start.

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Originally posted by fanofgame:
What unfair advantage does kid have?...many parents are waiting to have their kids start.

What are they waiting for?

I would resist the temptation to analyze this issue or any other for that matter in terms of fairness or unfairness. Sports are inherently unfair. Most varsity squads probably carry between 20-25 players and yet only 9 get to play. What is fair about that? What is fair about a freshman, sophmore, or junior player having to beat out a senior player if they want to play on varisty? What is fair about a senior player who has waited all his life to play varsity to see that dream disappear when an underclassmen has beaten him out?

Do you see where I am going here? Nothing in sports is fair. How come when a team gets the benefit of a referee's call they don't stop play and demand the other team be given the call in the name of fairness? At every level of the game there is unfairness. In pro sports, some guys are using performance enhancing drugs and some are not. Very unfair. The only way to combat unfairness is to overcome it. Better yet, assume that everything is fair and only worry about things under one's own control.

I dont think that anyone is talking about a kid that starts school a little later because of a birthday in August or July or one that is having legit academic issues. Its the kid that stays back in HS for no other reason than athletics (due to injury or whatever) that is causing such polarity in opinions here. When did the logic become "my kid broke his leg, so now he has to stay back in SCHOOL?" (Probably since college became so expensive, and sports seen as a way to pay for it, but that is another subject altogether).

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I dont think that anyone is talking about a kid that starts school a little later because of a birthday in August or July...

That is EXACTLY what Brickhouse was talking about.

When I went to school, in the 1900s, the cutoff for turning five in kindergarten was Jan 31. At least 1/4 of the class began K at age four. Few went to nursery school. Some kids didn't even got to kindergarten. We all came out OK.

I can't see holding a kid back because of a July or August birthday. Come on. How hard is kindergarten, these days?

Suppose you hold a kid back a grade and it turns out that the younger grade had a better crop of players then the grade they're supposed to be in. Then you threw away a year for a kid who should've graduated on time and the kid winds up on the bench his senior year because that year's seniors were better at his position.

Other than academics, there's no reason to be holding kids back.

My kid was one of the youngest seniors on his team, played LL with all the kids in the younger grade because of his late brthday and there were HS juniors that were his age but he still was a starter on the varsity and hit in the middle of the order.

While my son started school at 4, entered his senior year at 16 and graduated at 17, there's no way he would've want to get held back. Especially if it was for sports only. He was making the grade as a multisport athlete despite being the youngest in his class.

It's one thing to hold a kid back a year at 4-5 because the age difference means something at that age, but even there, if the kid is ready and doesn't have issues going off to school at 4, it shouldn't be a big deal. Forget sports. At 4-5 that's not an issue

Whether a kid graduates from high school at seventeen or nineteen has nothing to do with fair. What's fair is if the parents are following the law. In our state children must start first grade by the time they are seven. Every kid is different physically, emotionally and mentally. By the time the kid is a working adult it doesn't matter when he/she started school or was held back.

My kids have always had to deal with being the younger kid. My daughter has a summer birthday. My son has a late spring birthday. Throw in they were both late physical bloomers. We weren't going to hold them back when they were ready for school. If a year of PG on the back end significantly helps my son for baseball it will be a consideration. My daughter didn't need it for softball. Girls physically mature sooner even if they are late bloomers.

You don't see too many kids here in NH staying back as older kids, maybe in grade school but that is only for academic reasons etc. I don't think anyone around here has held their kid back for athletics!

My son is a March birthday so he was always one of the youngest on his team. When the age change happened a few years back for LL & Ripken he had to compete against kids that were a grade ahead of him in school and 6 months or more older. I think this helped to prepare him for school athletics as he had to play against bigger older kids (though in his case more older then bigger). He seems to play better against the older kids then his own age group at times. Now that he is older and a freshman in high school the difference between him and the sophomore who got to play down an age group has closed substantially. I don't think a 16yr old freshman would have an advantage against him being a just turned 15yr old freshman on the diamond. However he has always been in the upper percential height and weight wise for his age so physically he can hang in there with the older kids.

I know people like to blow off the size issue on here but I think in this case physical size really does come into play IMO.

My nephew will graduate next Spring as a 17 year old. His birthday is in July. Changes in the cut off age gave him the chance to go to the Pony League World Series and allowed him to play with boys both his own age and older through his travel ball team. He has had many opportunities to attend tournaments and camps. All of this, plus his high GPA, helped him get recruited and admitted to an Ivy League school.

Had we known better, we would have held Leftyson back a year. But how were we to know that by third grade we'd start to see him falling behind others in class? How were we to know that he'd spend his schoolyard days a full head shorter than his classmates? How were we to know that college recruiters would consider his height and weight as a disadvantage and that just one year would have seen him jump a full three inches?

BUT had we kept him back, he may not have the drive that he has today. Working harder, showing up earlier, staying later, constantly striving to be better...maybe that wouldn't have been a part of his makeup had he been on the same level of physical maturity as his classmates. Had we kept him back, maybe he wouldn't have become the A student that has to work for his grades.

It is amazing how much he's changed since this past summer and he's still growing. It has been suggested to us for him to go JUCO for a year to give him a chance to catch up in physical maturity but he's a 4.0 student and wants more from the academics side. When he was 5 we weren't thinking about college ball prospects.

Making the decision on when to start your childs schooling is a very personal one that needs to take ALL aspects into account. My daughter is a September birthday but starting her in K at 4 was the absolute right thing to do for her as she had the emotional and academic abilities. If you are on the fence about whether or not to hold a child back, then the possiblity of college athletics could help with that decision but it should not be THE sole reason.

So had we known, it probably would have been better for leftyson if he started later. But I also believe that it's not the hand you are dealt but how you play it that matters. Maybe Leftyson wouldn't have become the "finesse" pitcher that he is today if it all had come a little easier for him.

lefty, my 2010 son is the youngest (DOB 10/92) in his class. When he was five, we weren't thinking about college ball, either. We were thinking about $10,000+ for another year in private kindergarten w/daycare vs. $3500 for first grade in parochial school w/after school care.

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Originally posted by Rob Kremer:

quote:

don't you agree that he has an unfair advantage over the kid who has an August birthday that entered the grade as the designated age set by the school system? Why does the school district set up ages for a child to enter school if the parent can just arbitarily choose when he or she can enter?

Brick, I guess I don't defer what I believe is in the best interests of my child to what "the system" decides I should do. Why would it be "unfair" if other parents have the opportunity to make the same decision?

And do you think parents "arbitrarily" decide things like this for their kids? Do you? Our decision was hardly arbitrary, nor was it ever even an issue with anybody throughout his schooling.

It sounds as if we differ. I think the parents are responsible for their children, and make better decisions for their welfare than school districts.

Talk about arbitrary! What is more arbitrary than to set, as you suggest, hard and fast age criteria for very young children as to when they must enter school! And then, what, tell parents they are FORCED to send their children at that specified age, or else what?

Sounds like you trust these institutions a heck of a lot more than I do to decide where my child "belongs."

And no, I have never had any problem looking anyone in the eye.

I have two August birthday children. I didn't know when they were four if they had the potential to be ditch diggers or rocket scientists. We signed them up for Kindergarden because that is what the school system said. I did not know that other parents held kids back intentionally. Just like the others have commented for sports, my kids adjusted to academics just as if they were the oldest ones in the class. My son was a National Honor Society member and my daughter is the president of her student council and a straight A student. I fully understand a parent who holds their child back because of academic concerns because, obviously, that is the first and foremost priority.

But, in our families experience, most summer birthday children that were held back were held back for athletic advantage. I am all for setting a kid up to be successful but it should not come at the expense of other kids who simply followed the school district's age rules, whether you agree with them or not.

It would be nice if we could devise a formula for baseball success so everyone could plug in the numbers i.e. age, height, weight, five tool ratings, etc, etc and determine the outcome ----- BUT even if such a formula existed AND we could accurately measure players, we could take two identical players with all the components and measurements being exactly the same, plug in those numbers and the results will NEVER be the same. As infielddad correctly sez:

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In baseball, at some point beyond high school, talent and drive will combine to provide the opportunity to compete and prove they belong with the best, even if they don't get a scholarship or have the DI opportunity.

The word OPPORTUNITY stood out for me in that paragraph. The ONLY thing a baseball player needs is OPPORTUNITY and in my opinion ALL players, one way or another, will have MANY opportunities. What they do with those opportunities depends entirely on THEM.
Fungo

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Had we known better, we would have held Leftyson back a year. But how were we to know that by third grade we'd start to see him falling behind others in class

Many kids who start Kinder.on the early side will do fine, and then at third grade start having problems.There is no right or wrong, again its up to the family and what is best for their children.I do not believe a kid should be held back for sports.

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It would be nice if we could devise a formula for baseball success so everyone could plug in the numbers i.e. age, height, weight, five tool ratings, etc, etc and determine the outcome ----- BUT even if such a formula existed AND we could accurately measure players, we could take two identical players with all the components and measurements being exactly the same, plug in those numbers and the results will NEVER be the same

Didn't some genetics test come out last year or so where parents could figure out what talent their one year old would be predisposed to succeed? Yep. PT Barnun had it right. I wonder how many parents had their kids tested.....

No son, I don't care how much you love LL. You can't play. You're not predisposed to future success.

If we assume that the cutoff date for HS seniors is 10/1/91 then the average HS senior would have been born on about 4/1/92. That would make the average HS senior about 17 3/4 yrs old as of today. The average age of the top 30 2010 players as ranked by PGcrosschecker who have a profile is just over 18 yo. That is a very big difference and shows a big advantage in being older. The other interesting thing is that 22 of the 30 were born before 4/1/92. In addition if you draw a trendline through the data it shows a strong relationship between age and ranking.

We can all argue as to what can or can't be done about it. What isn't arguable is that the older players have an advantage and it turns out that advantage is much more significant than I would have anticipated.

CADad, of course it is. When a near-by school district recently opened its third high school, students were re-aligned. Some kids were going to the new school. Some kids were not.

In order to avoid traumatizing the future seniors, and tearing them away from their friends, ( ) the district's plan was 'let the seniors stay where they are. Open the new school with freshmen, sophs and juniors- no seniors.' They fielded all varsity sports with underclassmen. They won few games that year, and finished last in almost everything.

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Originally posted by RJM:

quote:

It would be nice if we could devise a formula for baseball success so everyone could plug in the numbers i.e. age, height, weight, five tool ratings, etc, etc and determine the outcome ----- BUT even if such a formula existed AND we could accurately measure players, we could take two identical players with all the components and measurements being exactly the same, plug in those numbers and the results will NEVER be the same

Didn't some genetics test come out last year or so where parents could figure out what talent their one year old would be predisposed to succeed? Yep. PT Barnun had it right. I wonder how many parents had their kids tested.....

No son, I don't care how much you love LL. You can't play. You're not predisposed to future success.

There is. My brother in law works for IOC as a physiologist. They basically test atheletes and make their determinations. Your in your out based on how a particular athlete tests out. He's offered more than once to test the boy to find out what his limations/potential might be.

I wanted to weigh in on the issue. My son turned 14 right before freshman year started this year. The majority of kids on his freshmen football team were 10 to 15 months older. Never considered him undersized, plays line. But thru all of middle school he looked like a runt compared ro some of the kids he was matched against, started to even out a bit this year. One very vocal dadmakes a lot of comments during games kept commenting on well he was playing considering how "undersized he was". Undersized compared to your son, yes, also 15 months younger. Just bit my toungue. I don't see how parents, after their kids, get away with holding a kid back for athletic reasons. If academics is an issue that's different and maybe they shouldn't be participating until academics ironed out. Isn't that an extra year of expense for the taxpayer for educating their kid. Shouldn't be allowed.

In our home my wife did not work. We enjoyed our young boys and gave them educational toys, but also felt it was important for them to play. We did not send them to school for K-4 and actually all our boys turned 6 the year they were in Kindergarden. Their birthdays are in August and September. We had the choice of starting them early (late 4) or starting them late (late 5). We chose to keep them at home and enjoy them. They climbed trees, built forts, and played outside. We had no thoughts as to how this would work later in life and still don't. I am happy that we kept them home with us that extra year though. No need to rush them off.

Fan that is exactly what we did. We liked having our kids around, so were in no hurry to get them in school. One born in Sep, one in Aug. We looked ahead and said: do we want 18 years with them or 19 years with them?

We chose 19, one more year of the kids around the house!

Rob

We never asked that question---what it was it was--and they all made it happen for themselves--but then again times were different back then

Ours are August and September too...No Regrets!

floridafan,

Kept my son home until seventh grade.Home schooled him.He had lots of home schooled friends, we had classes and it was awesome.When he went to school he was a straight A student, and wouldnt change it for the world.

I think this issue is getting confused here. I'm quite sure that nobody participating in this forum has a problem with parents wanting to have their kids around longer or parents having academic concerns starting their child later. The concern is that kids who fall under the school district defined age bracket are at a disadvantage in athletics when they are completing against other kids who are over a year older than they are. Obviously, someone has to be the youngest, but no freshman should have to compete against another freshman that is over a year older than him or her to make a team, period. The solution is simple. High school should start with 15U, 16U and varsity. If a parent decided to hold their child back for whatever reason, the athlete should have to start out in 16U because that is his or her age bracket and there is no unfair advantage. On a side note, I would like to see each bracket start with the first day of practice for each season (fall, winter, and spring). That way each kid has a chance to be one of the older players in their first two years of high school.

How about college Brickhouse? Do you also feel there should age brackets in college?

Thanks for asking Coach. No, I do not.

First, the athletes have become men and women by this point, even the late bloomers. You do not have full grown men playing against young boys as you do in a high school freshman class. This levels the playing field significantly.

Second, the athlete in college gets to pick his school! If he is a late developer, he can go to a juco or a smaller school. He can even choose a school that isn't very good at his sport so that he has a better chance to play. In addition, when it comes to scholarships, the athlete often knows that he is on the team before he registers for his or her school. He or she doesn't have to hope to make the team in those cases. In high school, the potential athlete is restricted to one public school according to where he or she lives.

No problem Brickhouse. Both of my kids graduated as 18 year olds so I never had to encounter this. I can see this is an issue that is near and dear to your heart. I dont think you will ever see age brackets in HS. Kids just have to work to overcome whatever obstacles they have. At every level coming up in the game kids start out with certain advantages. When the base paths are short and the fences are short and the pitchers are just happy to throw a strike the big boys dominate. As the field gets bigger and the pitchers get better the baseball players dominate.

In hs ages range from 14 to 19. In college they range from 17 to mid 20's at times. And at the pro level they range from 17 to the 40's. Baseball is a game that requires talent , skill , determination , dedication , focus , desire , patience , work ethic , passion , etc etc. At every leve of the game their will be obstacles to overcome. Yes some younger kids are at a disadvantage because the kids they are competing against are just as skilled and bigger and stronger. So what can you do about this?

Outwork everyone else way before you get to HS. Overcome their size advantage by just simply being a better player. Overcome their size advantage by fielding better , hitting better , throwing better , running the bases better , playing harder , playing smarter , outworking them , out hussle them , out tough them , out play them , be at practice before them , be there when they are not there.

Maybe you wont ever be as good of a hs player as the older stronger more skilled player. But all you have to do is stay in the game long enough to reach your full potential as a player. And then you will be the best you can possibly be. And that is all anyone can ask from any player. Some kids have a batting cage in their own yard. Some kids get great coaching and instruction at a young age. Some kids have advantages over other kids that are not just related to age. Some kids are just born with more God given talent. What can I do to be the best player I can be? That is what I believe a player needs to focus on. Focusing on other players and what advantages they have on me is not a solution. Focusing on what I need to do to be the best I can be and then doing it is a solution. Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by Brickhouse:

First, the athletes have become men and women by this point, even the late bloomers. You do not have full grown men playing against young boys as you do in a high school freshman class. This levels the playing field significantly.

Isn't this why they have JV and this is a big reason why most college freshman sit?

CM is correct, there will always be someone older or maybe younger than you in this game, HS is a very good place to begin to show what you can do against those older than you.

what about the point that if a parent holds a kid back for athletic reasons after he has started school the taxpayers and school district are on the hook for an extra year of expense for educating him. Why should taxpayers be obligated so someon'es son can get a leg up in athletics?

I dont know about where you live kevin but here in NC you can not hold your child back a year once he starts school unless you put him in private school. Then it is up to you to pay for it. The only way your child can be held back once he starts school is if he fails.

I appreciate the words of encouragement Coach. But, baseball was never the problem as my son was fully focused on the things that you are saying. In fact, that was his motivation, to work hard until things even out. That is why he is a D1 freshman pitcher now. I was mostly referring to basketball and football. In hs, the varsity coaches typically determines who their varsity quarterback or point guard is going to be during their freshman season and groom them. Patience until you start growing will not help you then. We are fully aware that everyone has obstacles to overcome. My son did that in baseball. But in other sports where size is an undeniable advantage and you need to stand out early, it is more than an obstacle it is a roadblock.

I realize that I am in the minority on this one. Unless your kid graduated at the age of 17 and he had to sit behind three kids on the basketball team that were over a year older than him or your kid did not make the team because of it, it is difficult to relate to this situation.

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But all you have to do is stay in the game long enough to reach your full potential as a player.

And therein lies the rub. Sometimes the late bloomers never get that chance. Sorry, I see it happen year in and year out, at a program where the older kids are preferred over the more talented younger ones from the same grade.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
I dont know about where you live kevin but here in NC you can not hold your child back a year once he starts school unless you put him in private school. Then it is up to you to pay for it. The only way your child can be held back once he starts school is if he fails.

I have seen instances in Texas where kids go to private schools for a year and then come back to public and repeat the grade. In Texas, you have to take a test to advance to the next grade if you are coming from a private school. Some parents elect not to take the test and have their kids repeat the grade they took at private school for athletic purposes. (for example..9th grade in public school, 10th grade in private school, and repeat 10th grade in public.) The public system does not recognize the 1 year of private unless you can test into the next grade. Taking the entrance exam is voluntary and many choose not to take it so they have an athletic advantage.

"Freshman Parking Lot"

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
If we assume that the cutoff date for HS seniors is 10/1/91 then the average HS senior would have been born on about 4/1/92. That would make the average HS senior about 17 3/4 yrs old as of today. The average age of the top 30 2010 players as ranked by PGcrosschecker who have a profile is just over 18 yo. That is a very big difference and shows a big advantage in being older. The other interesting thing is that 22 of the 30 were born before 4/1/92. In addition if you draw a trendline through the data it shows a strong relationship between age and ranking.

We can all argue as to what can or can't be done about it. What isn't arguable is that the older players have an advantage and it turns out that advantage is much more significant than I would have anticipated.

I would recommend to all that you read Chapter 1 "The Matthew Effect" of "Outliers, The Story of Success" by best selling author Malcolm Gladwell, if you haven't already done so. Chapter 1 is about the age of young athletes and it's bearing on success in competitive sports. The rest of the book is good too.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Baseball is a game that requires talent , skill , determination , dedication , focus , desire , patience , work ethic , passion , etc etc. At every leve of the game their will be obstacles to overcome. Yes some younger kids are at a disadvantage because the kids they are competing against are just as skilled and bigger and stronger. So what can you do about this?

Outwork everyone else way before you get to HS. Overcome their size advantage by just simply being a better player. Overcome their size advantage by fielding better , hitting better , throwing better , running the bases better , playing harder , playing smarter , outworking them , out hussle them , out tough them , out play them , be at practice before them , be there when they are not there.

Maybe you wont ever be as good of a hs player as the older stronger more skilled player. But all you have to do is stay in the game long enough to reach your full potential as a player. And then you will be the best you can possibly be. And that is all anyone can ask from any player. Some kids have a batting cage in their own yard. Some kids get great coaching and instruction at a young age. Some kids have advantages over other kids that are not just related to age. Some kids are just born with more God given talent. What can I do to be the best player I can be? That is what I believe a player needs to focus on. Focusing on other players and what advantages they have on me is not a solution. Focusing on what I need to do to be the best I can be and then doing it is a solution. Good luck.

WOW!...This is some really, really great stuff...

If your are a HSBBW poster...read this over and over within it there are the true answers to a great mnay of the questions that have been posed on this site...

If you are a parent...tape it to your refrigerator

If you are a coach...put it into your handouts, or post it on the bulletin board.

If you are a boss...refine it into a mission statement.



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