Significance of graduation age in recruiting?

AL MA 08 - I don't think there is anyone in this thread who has argued that there are not advantages that come from age.

My question to you is the same one I asked CADad - will your age prevent you from playing in college?

I don't understand the "ya but" he could have been ranked higher argument. I agree with the premise but I have no clue how it helps one deal with their own unique circumstances

How about this example: A kid is skinny and 5-11 and a late bloomer physically and he throws 83-84 mph as a senior yet he is one heck of a high school baseball player. All he does is win. He is also one year younger than most of the kids who he competes with.

What is the solution for that kid? Hang it up and go home because you are too young? Forgettaboutit because you don't throw 88? Cry in his beer because life is unfair? I am obviously exaggerating and realize you did not make these points but I have wondered if some of them are not implied by some of the responses we have seen here.

How about we encourage the young man to keep at it. Maybe there is no D1 opportunity at an SEC school in his immediate future but just MAYBE there is still a future for him down the road if he keeps at it and learns to outwork/out compete other kids. Maybe he goes to a juco for a couple of years. Maybe he grows to 6-1 or more or adds 25 lbs to his slight frame. Maybe his velocity gets up to the high 80's in the next year or so while competing at the juco. Maybe when his physical maturity catches up to his advanced skills, he passes by those kids who were way out in front of him in high school. Those are the messages I would like to send to all the young ballplayers who love the game. Don't give up because you might just be the ugly duckling who turns into the beautiful swan. May sound corny but I believe it can happen. I don't believe in what-ifs. I agree that there are discrepancies due to age but want to encourage youngsters to focus on the things they can control rather than those they cannot.

No doubt being older and more mature physically is a plus.
It is all up to the player, I will use son as an example. He was a senior hitting 91 (cruising at high 80's) with projection. No doubt he needed work on his pitches and body, college was the best option to accomplish that, for him. There were some who got drafted that probably did because their stronger desire was to go pro before HS, made them more signable, but I don't think they had better stuff, that's how the draft works.

The difference IMO, and what some of us are trying to say, was he never complained about it (we didn't either) or took it as a negative, he just went about his business to work harder for a better chance the next time around.

Now don't want to hear about how he was bigger and stronger and threw harder than others, and IMO, it's all relative to each individual and how they go about trying to change perceptions. Do you want to complain about it, or do something about it to prove them otherwise.

He never complained about hitting 91 and cruising in the upper 80s as a senior. Do you realize how incredibly arrogant that sounds to 99.9% of the people on here?

Interestingly, between CD's player and mine, you mght have two on the opposite side of the spectrum (in terms of physical development and size and maybe age as far as younger or older in their class not sure), yet both seem to be in a place where they are achieving their personal goals.

CD,
Once the kid is in HS then you make the best of the cards you were dealt. My recommendation is that parents consider holding their kids back at the preschool age if they are sports oriented and the kid has a birthday that would put them at a bit of a disadvantage for sports. I'd also recommend they look into it at going into 9th grade if there's a very strong interest in sports and a strong possibility that waiting a year will make a big difference. That's a much harder one to call of course and generally it isn't a good idea. However, around here it has almost always paid off and the people who have done it (mostly for football) have been happy with the way it turned out both from a sports and academics standpoint.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
He never complained about hitting 91 and cruising in the upper 80s as a senior. Do you realize how incredibly arrogant that sounds to 99.9% of the people on here?

No I meant he never complained he didn't get drafted.

Over the past few years (not necessarily here), have heard more parents complain their kids got the shaft, over who recruited them and they didn't get drafted or that those less talented than them made the HS team.

And it's all relative to each person. Does anyone think because you are one of those older or bigger ones you don't have to work your BUTT off to get where you want to go?

Good advice for anyone, control what you can and stop worrying about what you can't.

I understood that and it sounds incredibly arrogant on your part to write that.

quote:

Originally posted by CADad:
I understood that and it sounds incredibly arrogant on your part to write that.

That may be so but I was trying to explain that no matter who you are you have obstacles to face. Don't ever think that it doesn't take very hard work and a good attitude to get where you want to go, big or small, younger or older.

The question is there an advantage or disadvantage in age concerning the recruiting process. I say YES there certainly can be.

Quote:
I don't understand the "ya but" he could have been ranked higher argument. I agree with the premise but I have no clue how it helps one deal with their own unique circumstances.
End Quote:

People should understand that it can impact how a coach looks at them, good or bad. I did not intend to discurage anyone from pursuing their dream to play college ball. As to the rankings, it is simply another tool that a coach may use to decide between two kids. It did not impact my son's situation, but it could impact another.

I always try to encourage anyone to prusue their goals, but as to age I believe it can impact their recruiting outlook. Can the player change the outcome; you bet! My son is proof of that!

TPM,
Your son was one of the older ones for his grade unless the PG database is wrong. He would have turned 19 before playing his freshman season in college. When I say that the kids should be held back I'm talking about kids who are with a month or two of your son's age ending up in the same grade as your son was. The examples I've used are kids who were more than a year younger for their grade than your son.

I'd never recommend that a kid like your son who had an advantageous birthday for both youth sports and HS baseball should be held back another year unless there was something outside of sports that required it.

I understand that, I do not agree that unless there are academic issues a child be held back. It saddens me that this has become popular for parents these days due to sports, but again I do not agree, no matter what age my son was, is. It bothers me that more emphsis is placed on teh importance of how one does on the field than in the calssroom these days. Maybe that is the former teacher talking.
There is always going to be someone older and someone younger, someone bigger or stronger in every situation. And we have established that does create an obstacle, it's how you overcome it that has moved this topic along.

So putting a kid who is a month or two older or younger than your son in the same grade as your son is a bad thing? If my parents had held me back a year I would have still been younger for my grade than your son.

quote:

There is always going to be someone older and someone younger, someone bigger or stronger in every situation. And we have established that does create an obstacle, it's how you overcome it that has moved this topic along.

That's pretty pompous coming from someone who's son had every age based advantage to go on top of a lot of natural ability. Why didn't you give your son the academic advantage of starting school a year sooner? My parents did that with me and my birthdate is a week later than your son's. A lot of parents in our area did that with kids who had birthdates a month or two after your son's?

There may have been a very, very few kids who were bigger and older for their grade than your son but I doubt he faced that particular situation to speak of so who are you to talk about it?

The funny thing is that in one way some of the posters may be right. There are rare occasions where successfully overcoming the disadvantage gives the kids a mental toughness that some kids who never were at a disadvantage never develop.

I would like to restate that unless you have a kid who missed out on something in middle school or high school because of an older student who was held back for sports, it is hard for you to relate.

For all of you who continue to stress that it is just another obstacle that you need to overcome and to worry about things that you can control, we understand that.

However, there is no opportunity to overcome this obstacle if the player does not make the team because it is loaded up with older kids prior to a player's growth years.

The only way I could have moved my kids ahead was if they attended private school. I am not into that. My daughter happened to also be one of the older ones, but she needed to repeat first, for academic reasons and it wasn't my choice. So being older isn't always an advantage is it? So you don't know what obstacles we faced along the way.
Since you are getting into your childhood, I was always the youngest in my class, and I struggled in academics, I am not going to get into what my parents should or should not have done with me.

Again, I would never keep my kids back for "athletic reasons". If this is something that you think you should have done with your kids and you didn't, don't look back at could have, should have.

Did your son ever play up, mine never did, he played with the kids who he would graduate with, and when younger he was one of the youngest because of bb cutoff.

I'll bet you provided your son with every opportunity, lessons, training, more lessons, showcases, camps to improve, etc. How about those that can't afford those opportunities? That gives your player a big advantage if you did and they didn't, doesn't it? That's ok right?

I do not disagree with younger having a disadvantage, it's complaining about it that bothers me.

Overcoming obstacles doesn't just mean being the youngest, there are a lot of obstacles one has to overcome and it isn't just about being small. Trust me.

Brickhouse,
Don't use that as an excuse. That's my issue.

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
AL MA 08 -
How about this example: A kid is skinny and 5-11 and a late bloomer physically and he throws 83-84 mph as a senior yet he is one heck of a high school baseball player. All he does is win. He is also one year younger than most of the kids who he competes with.

What is the solution for that kid? Hang it up and go home because you are too young? Forgettaboutit because you don't throw 88? Cry in his beer because life is unfair? I am obviously exaggerating and realize you did not make these points but I have wondered if some of them are not implied by some of the responses we have seen here.

How about we encourage the young man to keep at it. Maybe there is no D1 opportunity at an SEC school in his immediate future but just MAYBE there is still a future for him down the road if he keeps at it and learns to outwork/out compete other kids. Maybe he goes to a juco for a couple of years. Maybe he grows to 6-1 or more or adds 25 lbs to his slight frame. Maybe his velocity gets up to the high 80's in the next year or so while competing at the juco. Maybe when his physical maturity catches up to his advanced skills, he passes by those kids who were way out in front of him in high school. Those are the messages I would like to send to all the young ballplayers who love the game. Don't give up because you might just be the ugly duckling who turns into the beautiful swan. May sound corny but I believe it can happen. I don't believe in what-ifs. I agree that there are discrepancies due to age but want to encourage youngsters to focus on the things they can control rather than those they cannot.

Hey CD sounds like my son!! I certainly haven't suggested he give it up. I tell him to look at the bright side, he can still play Summer Ball for 2 years after he graduates from HS!

It was undeniably the reason. It is not an excuse.

Please understand, my son has run into many other obstacles in his athletic career and will run into many more. Everyone on this forum has done a great job of listing the many distractions.

Being a boy competing against men who are over a year older than you are and losing a spot because of it is legitimate. Why are we so quick to forgive the overzealous parents who decided to manipulate the system just so their kid can get an athletic advantage and at the same time point the blame to the kid who is already the youngest in his class for not becoming a man fast enough?

To put it bluntly, when my son was a sophomore in high school he was closer in age to some eighth graders than he was to some of the starters on the sophomore basketball team. If he was in eighth grade, not only would he have started, he would have been a star.

I understand that if I could have foreseen the future, I could have held him back but, shame on me, I was a naive parent in my twenties who just thought that you were supposed to sign kids up for school according to the defined age group. I had no idea that the parents in the kids sporting world were so conniving and opportunistic.

Then how do we explain to the seniors that are beat out by the sophomores and juniors?

If the older player was not there getting time ahead of the younger one, then maybe someone would transfer in that could also take the spot? You never know.

My son is a July birthday and started K at 6. He took over a starting role on varsity over a senior as a sophomore. Took it from a kid that was almost 2 years older than him that had been waiting in the DH role to get his senior year on the field.

My son was in that starting role for 3 consecutive years. The kid behind him will get his first start as a senior this year. Now if my son started K at 5 would that mean that he would have gotten the starting role, all other things being equal, his Junior year instead of sophomore year? Maybe, or maybe he still takes it his sophomore year because his preparation would have made him ready. We will never know.

Another thing, there was a bumper crop at my son's position in the state of Florida in 2009. D1's had a lot of choices. Mine is playing D2 because of the competition of other players, some older some younger, some the same age. He had the opportunity to go out of state for D1 but wanted to stay in state. He did not get his dream school where he could have competed as well as the other freshman position players, but he took the best fit that was available.

With all the access to playing summer ball where a lot of the recruiting is done, I just don't see how anyone that is college worthy, regardless of D1, D2, D3, JUCO etc. does not get an opportunity somewhere, and then makes the most of it.

It will happen in life again and again and again. There will always be someone better and some worse.

Just wait until your son is a frosh in college and he has JUCO transfers on his team that are 23 years of age or older---my son was 17 when he entered college and the first day of practice he was in CF with a guy who apparently had been a JUCO lifer because he was purportedly 25 years of age

He is already there TRhit. He is on a D1 pitching staff with several other pitchers that are significantly older than him.

Kokomojo, basically what you described was that your son played in his appropriate age group. He should have been playing with juniors and seniors and he was.

kokojomo you have the right attitude.

I don't understand Brickhouse, when you enter HS you are playing against kids 3-5 years older than you, same with collegem TR's sites a good example, and freshman entering college are NOT men, mentally and physically.

Oh boo, my son spent almost two years in HS on the bench because the older guys got to hit, but they weren't better. Now some other kids his age got to play multiple positions in HS, they wouldn't let him. We think, if they had allowed him to hit more, he could have been a better hitter than a pitcher. He had to BEG for the coahc to let him hit his senior year. He could have been another Arod perhaps? He missed out on that opportunity.

Life ain't fair!

What seems odd to me, Brickhouse, is that your son seems to be the poster child for how a kid can overcome whatever obstacle being younger than his peers puts in his way.

But instead of seeing this, you seem almost obsessed with complaining about how unfair it is, to the extent where you make sweeping statements about the motives of folks whose kids are on the older side, with absolutely no justification or knowledge of their situations.

Did you have the choice of whether to start your son in kindergarten when you did, or keep him out for another year?

My son is an August birthday. Some of his peers might have been one year younger than him, but their parents all had that same choice, since the birthdays were so near the cutoff guideline date, to start or not start their kid in school based on their best judgment.

I can tell you I never once have heard anyone ever so much as bring the issue up, with regard to my son in his youth and HS athletic career, much less complain about it, until you turned this thread into your own personal jihad.

It just seems strange to me, and I can tell from the response you have gotten from others here, I am not alone.

If we look at back and seek "missed opportuntities for both ourselves and our kids we could drive ourselves nuts---I have one major credo in life--"Never look back" !!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
It just seems strange to me, and I can tell from the response you have gotten from others here, I am not alone.

Brickhouse isn't alone, either.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
If we look at back and seek "missed opportuntities for both ourselves and our kids we could drive ourselves nuts---I have one major credo in life--"Never look back" !!!!

I'll drink to that TR!

Rob, thanks for the compliment regarding my son I appreciate it. Unfortunately, I know several other parents of young August birthday kids feel exactly the same way I do. To keep the team experience cordial, we just bite our tongues. In addition, please keep in mind, we understand it was not the kid's decision of when to enter school. I also know that I am in the minority on this one because I would say 75% of August birthdays are held back, but the ones that weren't are resentful. The reason I continue to fight this fight as this trend of one upmanship needs to stop or parents will be holding kids back with January birthdays just to get an edge.

TPM, you just don't get it. Nobody here is talking about mentally being an adult. I'm sure we all know 40 year olds that are not adults mentally. There is a huge difference in physical strength with a boy who has reached puberty compared to a boy who has not. You're son was always older so you may not have ever seen him in this situation.

Again, they have ages for travel teams for a reason. I have a 12 year old daughter who is solid at softball, but not sensational. Should I have her tryout for the 14U team and if she doesn't make it say "No Excuses"?

quote:

TPM, you just don't get it

Brickhouse, I think there is someone who does not get it. It isn't TPM.
As TR says, why complain about the past. You cannot change it. Your son is now pitching at a DI and, according to you, has overcome everything.
So, if graduation age is your issue, how about this one:
Our son was born 6-7 weeks premature. A few years earlier he would not have survived. At one point, he was down to less than 5lbs and had doctors probing with needles, spinal taps and all kinds of things.
We were told by his pediatrician he would likely be physically behind for quite some time.
Well, as I posted before, he was 4'10" and 96lbs as a HS freshman. Who cares about his birthdate. We loved he survived through his. He stuck with football, he stuck with baseball, he didn't get a DI scholarship, didn't play DI.
Why in the He ll are you complaining about your son's birthdate and what it "took" from him..or is it what it "took" from you.
While playing in college...DIII not your son's DI, our son's very best friend was killed in a car accident. His Mom and Dad never got to see their son finish college or finish college baseball.
Why are you so anguished about 8th grade basketball and birthdate that you perceive created a disadvantage?
Our son had a premature birth that made it a challenge for his survival. His best friend in college died before he was age 20.
Why not love every day your son gets a chance to live his dream? Why not applaud every kid you see competing on a field against him?
You never know what others have experienced. Why judge them based on what you think they "took away" from your son when you can love what your son has...and hug your son to show him you love him.
Earlier you suggested folks like me could not relate.
Nope, I guess I cannot.
Boy, has this thread been illuminating.
I, for one, won't be nominating it for "golden."

infielddad - I appreciate where you're coming from. We should all be grateful for the good fortunes that we have. The topic that we are discussing in smaller than much more important topics that face the world and I am sure every family today.

But, if you are going to use that as a comparison, every topic on this forum is unimportant. Baseball, in general, should not be discussed in comparison to a child struggling for his life. On this HS baseball website, we discuss how to throw a changeup, how to get recruited, who is better the Cubs or the White Sox?, and other even sillier topics. None of us imply that we are not at all appreciative of what life has brought us, but can we discuss topics that are of interest to us? We can disagree but the purpose of the discussion is to hear about a baseball life from another perspective.

What you went through with your son is infinitely more important than what we are discussing but this forum is generally designed to be about a lighter topic, i.e. baseball.

All kids reach puberty at different times.

How would you know when my son reached or began puberty, you are assuming, because he was older, but you have no idea. If that's what you want to use as a benchmark, most of his friends were shaving as freshman in HS, they made fun of him because he didn't have one hair on his face. He was tall, he looked like a baby. He couldn't even grow a beard in college.

I do get it I just don't understand the things you use to make your argument valid.

Brickhouse,
How is our son's premature birth, leaving him physically behind all the way through age 15-16 any different than you son's "age" when he was a HS sophomore?
One ended up physically behind because of his birth weight.
One ended up physically behind because of his birth date.
If my son had been a 16 year old freshman, would he have been an "enemy" because his age "advantage?"
My point is there are lots of fun and sometimes important topics to discuss on this site. I love this site.
My point of view is "graduation age" in recruiting or age issues as you have framed them are being used to create an issue when, in my view, none exist.

Infield Dad - I believe that in your view this is a non issue. CAdad, Antzdad, Al Ma 08, and I have had life experiences where it was an issue. That is why we are bringing it to this forum to discuss.

Life experience?
How about being told the reason you were not selected for the DI school of your "dreams" was you were not big and strong enough to withstand a Pac10 season.
Brickhouse, you keep stating you had a life experience. The implication is my son didn't have it. Our son got it up close and personal when he learned his size and strength left him on the outside when DI opporunties were offered. Does that qualify as a life experience?
They didn't make up the slogan "Baseball is Life."

Nobody ever said that were not other injustices or disappointments that others may have had regarding baseball or life.

You just said that you do not see the age thing as an issue. I just pointed out a few other contributors that had the same issue. It doesn't mean that you haven't encountered disappointing things that we have not.

Baseball is life. It is full of disappointments.
It sure doesn't mean it is important to run up 12 pages of posts on the "experiences" my son might have had but for his graduation age.
If you and CADad and others want to commiserate on this site about the past injustices of graduation age in recruiting, be my guest.
The players and college coaches who are succeeding could care less, I would expect.

quote:

Originally posted by Brickhouse:
Infield Dad - I believe that in your view this is a non issue. CAdad, Antzdad, Al Ma 08, and I have had life experiences where it was an issue. That is why we are bringing it to this forum to discuss.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I do beleive that Al Ma's son attends an SEC school. He did state his son was not impacted.
Maybe you just struck a nerve, I keep thinking about some of the folks here whose sons have had waaayyy more to deal with in their life experiences.

Let's take Justbaseball, whose son, a Stanford prospect got hit in the face (eye actually) while at the cape, cracked orbit, facial fractures, etc. who would have ever thought that he would lead his team to Omaha and just recently help his team win a milb championship. Don't think that was easy.
Then there is FrankF's son, major shoulder surgery, got released but recently a story about him on ESPN360 playing in the independent league trying to make a comback. You ought to try to watch it, my husband and I cried like babies when we watched it.

Then there is Nick Adenhart, well you know the story, his step dad posts here and just last week on TV they featured Nick's family and the survivor of that crash and the parents of the other victim. Makes you realize, in the grand scheme of things, what is really important. The thing that struck me so deeply, these parents have no bitterness over the injustice of a drunk driver taking away their children.

As I said once in this topic, it's all relevant, it's not an easy road for anyone. I don't find what you or CADad have posted about something to fret over or for parents of younger kids to contemplate keeping them back for athletic reasons. That's not real life, IMO.

That's about it I guess for me too,

I can sense there may be some hard feelings here over this issue. Perhaps people can elaborate why they feel these injustices have hurt their children in particular.

This debate has raised another question in my mind. Do some feel that others can manipulate the system such that it robs their own kids of a fair chance to compete?

If that is the case, are the parents' "abilities" actually more important than the talents of their kids in determining whether of not a kid is recruited?

CD, that is excactly the point that I am making.

Infieldad - I am quite sure the players and coaches that were not affected by this could care less. We totally agree on that.

TPM - As I said before, yes, there are many more important issues than age issues regarding baseball but that is the topic of this thread.

In addition, as it has been mentioned masny times on this site, if you do not like, agree with, or if this topic does not interest you, you do not need to read it. Just don't ridicule the people that it does interest and we will give you the same respect when you are discussing a topic that does not interest us.

You guys are right on what I am saying. My kids like all kids have had a great deal of obstacles to overcome in athletics to get where they are today. Certainly others have had tremendous challenges to surmount.

When a coach plays another player over my kids or another player outworks them, that is great. That makes them have to work harder because obviously their ability does not stand out as much as they think. It propels them to work harder and get better.

What I don't like is when a parent is maneuvering behind the scenes to give their kid an advantage over my kid or anybody else's kid. Al Ma 08, we had the same thing in middle school basketball as well.

The topic of this thread was about age being an advantage, that is why we have been honing in on that one advantage. In my area, there are numerous examples of overbearing parents who are manipulating the system. Holding a kid back was just one small example of how this was happening.

quote:

The topic of this thread was about age being an advantage, that is why we have been honing in on that one advantage. In my area, there are numerous examples of overbearing parents who are manipulating the system. Holding a kid back was just one small example of how this was happening.

Funny how threads change....when you least expect it
I thought CADad was posting about age impacting the ability and opportunity to be recruited in baseball. In fact, I am pretty sure he was.
My impression, and why I posted, was this was the topic that was being continued.
Had I realized the shift in the focus from graduation age in recruiting to age being an advantage in 5th grade basketball, and the like, I would have mitigated the carpal tunnel and stopped posting.

I have found in my experience , especially with HS and college players nobody "outmaneuvers" the hard working player who has talent---the most talented players usually come out on top

Brickhouse---your son is pitching at the D-I level so why all your bitching about what you "perceive" happened in years gone by ?