Significance of graduation age in recruiting?

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:
I'll drink to that TR!

Sorry TPM, but after reading through some of your and TRhit wars, I don't see y'all doing that together.
Then again, I'm just a pot-stirer.

workinghard

I didn't think she drank--I thought she frowned on it

I am not speaking for Brickhouse; yet my understanding of this site is to provide up and coming players and parents some insight into the high school scene. Most kids strive to play more than one sport in HS and sometimes our threads move away from baseball. Older kids playing in front of younger kids starts in middle school which feeds the high schools. The school my kids go to has pre-school through 12th grade. My daughter calls heself a lifer since she started preschool and will finish high school there, God willing.

We all agree talent wins out every time. But a kid has to get some play time in middle school to contend with moving into the high school roster no matter whether its baseball, basketball or football or any other sport. Sometimes parents do not have the skills to teach the player proper technique and therefore relies on the school coaches or even private instruction these days. When you experience middle school dads that have influence in the system over the young middle school coaches and keep a kid from getting game time you can tell your player to hang in there only so many times before it falls on deaf ears.

We did establish that older kids have an avantage and in baseball we were able to overcome some of these obstacles brought out in this thread. It is when, at a younger age, a kid is not given much chnace to develop that parents watching by the sidelines are left wondering what is going on.

As put forth above, like's not fair and as a parent we usually try to make it a level playing feild for all if and when we can.

BTW, I may have deleted a post and was trying to post last nite between 1 and 2.

I still say that if the field is slightly uphill you need to learn how to handle it, regardless of age

No problem there if it is slightly uphill. Parents need to know that sometimes that climb becomes pretty steep and playing against older kids is hard enough without parents adding to the fire.

Thanks for asking TRHit. Al Ma 08 you summed up nicely what I was trying to convey. Just like everyone else, I don't have a time machine to correct perceived inequities of the past, but I can help make younger parents aware of a situation that we encountered. This is a great forum for that.

Also, I mentioned in a previous post that baseball was the best sport to play if you are a younger player for your grade because you will always have the opportunity to play for the appropriate age travel team because they go strictly by age, for example 12u, 13u, 14u. Because of this, you can always keep working at it until you catch up.

The age issue comes up much more in the middle school and early high school football and basketball when time is of the essence to make an impression on a head coach. Having an extra year to grow and gain strength in the early teens is an advantage. Can it be overcome, sure. But many times, the opportunity for these sports slips by faster than you can overcome it.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I still say that if the field is slightly uphill you need to learn how to handle it, regardless of age

Then let the lessons begin at age FIVE with kindergarden!!

antzdad


Are you talking sports or academics ?

I entered kindergarten at 5 years of age

I thought 'field' was a euphemism for life.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
I have found in my experience , especially with HS and college players nobody "outmaneuvers" the hard working player who has talent---the most talented players usually come out on top

Even though Trhit yells at me for some of the moderator decisions around here, he is right on this one imho. I believe the parents manipulations have little to do with it.

I ask those who disagree with me on this one to take a step back and think about it for a moment. On one hand, people are arguing that someone "elses" kid got ahead because of parents manipulating things. At the same time, how would the same people feel if someone suggested that the reason "their" kids were recruited was because of the manipulations of their parents? I mean what's good for the goose is good for the gander - right?

CD - I can't speak for the others but I was mostly referring to the earlier years with the parents maneuvering. I do know of some older ones, but that is more of the exception.

In my case, I have never even had a conversation with his hs coach. My son did all of his own college communication and did all of the work to get his scholarship offers.

Nice insults around here. Just about everyone, excluding CD and Al-Ma have taken an emotional response to this issue. If anyone was to take the time to actually read what I've written instead of making up things about it you'd realize that what I've said is that parents of kids who are within a month or two of the cutoff date should consider not having them start kindergarden early. An example would be TPM's son who is near the cutoff date. I would recommend that a kid with the same birthday take the same approach. I'd also recommend that a kid with a birthday a few weeks or even a month earlier take the same approach. I think TPM did the right thing starting her son in school when she did. He was just on the good side of the cutoff date from a sports standpoint so why rush him? What I'm telling people is to not rush the kids unless you've got some other reason. I realize that there are parents who hold their kids back an extra year to gain an advantage and I don't agree with that. On the other hand I don't think holding a kid with an early August birthday back is a big deal. JMO, but July is kind of the point where it starts getting to be dicey. At our school we had November and December birthdays who started early and we had several August through late September birthdays who started on time and were a year younger than a lot of other players. Having seen how things turned out I think the August through December kids would have been better off waiting another year to start school and I don't think they would have been manipulating the system in doing so.

Let's face it the cutoff date is fairly arbitrary and it varies from state to state in any case.

So why the negative reaction toward those of us who have experienced the downside of being young for the grade passing on that experience?

How many of you think Jimmy Clausen had an unfair advantage?

I think you present it very nicely, here CADad.

But as far as "negative reaction," I think most of the negative has been in the accusatory tone aimed at parents who, like myself, decided not to start my August birthday son in school as soon as he turned 5.

Brickhouse went so far as to say "How can you look in the mirror."

Pretty over the top.

I really don't agree with parents starting or not starting their kids in school based on athletics.
It should be based on their level of readiness to begin social interaction beyond preschool and the ability to listen and learn, and to follow class rules.

In my experience, my kids are both in college now, and played multiple sports growing up, there was always the exception to the rule. Kids that were young for their grade that were a mix of physical and emotional readiness for sports, older ones fell into the same mix.

I will give an example of my older son who was always tall/thin/athletic for his age - a natural, a friend that was a grade(their birthdays were about five months apart) older was always average/thin/athletic - single sport/baseball,
The older one went off to a private school to play baseball, got injured, redshirted, came back to a JC, mine went to a state college to play baseball.
After one year of JC, the older one was drafted (infielder) and by then his body had really changed,and he had matured - taller, stronger, mentally focused, devoted. Mine, same, bigger, finally has weight on, thighs are strong, shoulders are broad, (pitcher). With age, they developed, we are talking about young men that continued to grow past high school because that is what their genetics dictated. Put side by side their final year in little league, you would have thought my kid would grow to be 6'5, and the other one to be about 5'8", as it turns out, they are about the same, 6'2" and 6'3".
Another player we know that was in the young catagory, is the same size he was freshman year, it really didn't matter when he started school, he is just small, a basketball player I know that is now making a living playing in the NBA, has parents that would be considered short, 5'7", he is 6'10", was not held back - it is all so random - the gene pool.

I really don't think you can guarantee success of an athlete based on their start date of Kindergarten.

On the flip side, my neice whose father is 6'9", played college basketball, and is a big boy, she has been towering over her preschool mates and kids wanted to know why she couldn't speak better when she was 1-l/2, but she was as tall as most Kindergarteners and first graders, the kids didn't understand why someone so big and tall did not speak as they did.
I am sure the examples could go on and on...remember the Little League World Series, a kid that was 6'8 or so, others were 4'10"?, come on, just do what is appropriate for your kid based on his/her readiness for social interaction.

Unless you are the 14 or 15 year old stud projected to be drafted someday into the mlb, age will be a factor for the majority. Not so much in league play, where most play according to their age, or maybe play up a year at most, but in HS where the Varsity can be anyone between 15 and 18 (19?).

Should your son use this or be allowed to use this as an excuse? No. Should you (he) recognize that this is a weakness and work to overcome it? Yes.

In order to protect ourselves we need to know what we are up against. As the Chinese General Sun Tzu said "Know thy enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated. When you are ignorant of the enemy but know yourself, your chances of winning or losing are equal. If ignorant both of your enemy and of yourself, you are sure to be defeated in every battle."

BRICKHOUSE IS RIGHT. My son is in same situaution. He actually has done well athletically competining against kids 12-18 months older in same grade. Parents should NOT BE ALLOWED to hold a kid back in school for sports, if not academically faltering, period. Taxpayers should not fund an extra year of school so a kid can get an unfair advantage in athletics. People talk that kid like Brickhouse and mine should just face this obstacle and compete, well ACTUALLY, the kids whose parents hold them back who can't quite accel against their own age ae the ones who should face the obstacle and compete. In Kentucky you can do this in public schools and not have to pay extra, It's bull. When you start a kid in school is your business as a parent. Our son was reading when he was four, so we thought it silly to keep him out school. Started kindergarden right after turning 5, Late july birthday. THis is a bigger issue in school sports in my opinion than recruiting, that some people are all up in arms about.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
I think you present it very nicely, here CADad.

But as far as "negative reaction," I think most of the negative has been in the accusatory tone aimed at parents who, like myself, decided not to start my August birthday son in school as soon as he turned 5.

Brickhouse went so far as to say "How can you look in the mirror."

Pretty over the top.

Rob, my point was did you ever consider that a kid who was held back to gain an athletic advantage was taking a roster sport from someone who was of the designated age, possibly over a year younger?

And as CAdad suggests, anybody that was on the negative side of this will now strongly consider holding their kid back when they have one. Thus this endless cycle perpetuates.

quote:

Originally posted by New2This:
Should your son use this or be allowed to use this as an excuse? No. Should you (he) recognize that this is a weakness and work to overcome it? Yes.

Why would you want to discuss an issue like this with your son?

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
How hard is kindergarten, these days?

Does anyone want to answer this? Do parents really visit their local school and sit in K for a day or two before they decide to hold their kid back or send him off on time?

Coloring, show and tell, snack time, recess, learn a song, listen to stories, field trip to the zoo.... what else do they do? Phew, my kid's not ready for that! Maturity and social skills? Those are things learned at home.

Got to admit, this is one of the funniest threads I have read.

quote:

Originally posted by AntzDad:
How hard is kindergarten, these days?

Bobblehead, maybe the entrance exam is one of those placemats from Denny's. 15 minutes to find the hidden apple in the picture, do the maze, color inside the lines...

quote:

Originally posted by ClevelandDad:

quote:

Originally posted by New2This:
Should your son use this or be allowed to use this as an excuse? No. Should you (he) recognize that this is a weakness and work to overcome it? Yes.

Why would you want to discuss an issue like this with your son?

CD, kids in high school are very aware of it when a teammate is over the age for their particular grade. When a freshman is driving, it is a tip off.

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
I really don't agree with parents starting or not starting their kids in school based on athletics.
It should be based on their level of readiness to begin social interaction beyond preschool and the ability to listen and learn, and to follow class rules.

I agree with this 100%. I haven't read every post, but if some are stating they start their kids late in school solely for athletic purposes, then shame on them. I think that is bad parenting. The minute you walk into that foyer, it's about an education, period.

quote:

maybe the entrance exam is one of those placemats from Denny's. 15 minutes to find the hidden apple in the picture, do the maze, color inside the lines...

I hope not. I would be still trying to get in.

To us it was about getting the little beggars out of the house. Cheap day care.
I can't believe anyone is thinking sports advantage at 5 yo.

quote:

Originally posted by workinghard:

quote:

Originally posted by iheartbb:
I really don't agree with parents starting or not starting their kids in school based on athletics.
It should be based on their level of readiness to begin social interaction beyond preschool and the ability to listen and learn, and to follow class rules.

I agree with this 100%. I haven't read every post, but if some are stating they start their kids late in school solely for athletic purposes, then shame on them. I think that is bad parenting. The minute you walk into that foyer, it's about an education, period.

Now maybe T-ball at three......

Brick - I am talking about planting seeds here. What kind of seeds do you think make the most sense to plant in your children?

1) After your son strikes out in the seventh inning with the tying run on base that effectively ends his and all his teammates season, you dutifully point out not to take it that hard because the kid who struck him out was older?

2) Same scenario - you encourage your son to never give up. You note how baseball is a game of failure and that the great ones are not afraid to fail. You encourage him to battle, not hang his head, and look forward to the next opportunity. The age of the participants never, ever comes up.

So what if a kid drives one year ahead of the others? Why even let it enter someone's thinking that someone else out there might have an advantage. Seems more productive to focus on creating your own advantage rather than lamenting someone elses. I am not arguing with anyone here about age providing an advantage. I can even understand some of the political arguments that lament that the system should not be gamed for sports. Even if we concede all that, I don't see the benefit of even slightly acknowledging it with your son.

What am I missing here?

Brickhouse what are you going to say if a younger player beats your son out for a roster spot? That happens all the time.

CD, you try your best to present your point number 2. However, you are very aware that he is thinking "this kid pitching against me is two years older than me." This actually happened when my son was a freshman and I pretty much told my son that he got himself out before the at bat actually started and he should be more concerned with his approach than who the pitcher is.

quote:

Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
Brickhouse what are you going to say if a younger player beats your son out for a roster spot? That happens all the time.

Absolutely no problem with that. The player had to out work my son to get that opportunity. He earned it. He wasn't just given a decided advantage based on something that he did not earn.

You would be a rare bird who didn't get upset when a younger player took their son's roster spot.

This is not what you want. Or maybe it is!

I get excited about the kid who has a March or so birthday and is held back purely for sports such that he is significantly older than the other kids. You never really know though. A kid in our area was held back in 8th grade and we all thought it was for football. When I talked to the dad it became very clear that he was held back for academic and social issues and it ended up being a big positive for him in those areas. There's a kid from our area who had an early August birthday and was held back. It probably was a bit of an advantage through HS and in the draft. However, the kid almost certainly needed the extra year to be able to scrape by academically and he was pretty obviously someone whose best option by far was to sign with the pros. Such is life.

If the kid was held back because he wasn't ready for school for some reason then such is life and maybe he'll end up needing the sports advantage more than other kids.

As far as getting excited about an August birthday staying back that's not reasonable. That's just a matter of preference. What date do you draw the line at? That becomes a case by case type of thing and it also depends on where you are at. There are some HS football crazy states where kids from athletics oriented families are held back as a matter of course.

BTW, it is a real hassle having to sign baseball paperwork for a 17yo during the fall of their freshman year.

I'll even list one of the advantages for the younger college guys who have the talent to go pro. There is an advantage relative to the draft in being a year younger at the end of the junior season of college.

quote:

Rob, my point was did you ever consider that a kid who was held back to gain an athletic advantage was taking a roster sport from someone who was of the designated age, possibly over a year younger?

No, it never crossed my mind. Because I didn't "hold my kid back" for any "athletic advantage."

He was five years old, for God's sake!

You seem to have a hard time not mixing together things that are not the same. I would tend to agree with you that having a kid repeat a grade for purely athletic reasons is wrong. (But as CADad pointed out, what you assume is the reason is often not true.)

But holding a kid back, say, in middle school, for purely athletic reasons is not even close to being the same as deciding not to enroll a five year old with an August birthday. You seem unable to grasp the difference.

Another reason I never once considered how "unfair" it was for my son to compete against kids who might be about a year younger than he is, is because every one of those parents had the same choice we had. They too could have decided to wait a year to enroll their kid. They chose to enroll him.

You implied in another post that you had the same choice. So what is the problem? You made your choice, now you come on here and whine incessantly about the implications of it.

Hey if you are upset because you think you made the wrong choice, that is your problem. Don't point fingers at others who made a different choice and blame them for your supposed injustices.

And please stop trying to imply that a parent who chooses to wait a year before enrolling their kid in kindergarten after turning five freaking years old in August is scheming for an athletic advantage!

Please! That is just ridiculous!

In our case our son stayed back after his SR year to play Basketball. Had nothing to do with getting an advantage over another player. His HS was a Basketball power house and that was common for them. He didn't even play HS BB that year. It was his choice, He already had BB offers and was a top student. We also were happy because he stayed here for an extra year and we knew he was probably going to college far away.
We don't regret that year one bit. Getting an advantage in recruiting didn't cross our minds and most of the video we used in recruiting was as a 16-17 yo. Never used any HS video in the recruiting. He stayed back to enjoy one more year of HS.

The reasons for holding or not holding back a kid are all over the place. My son was a relatively immature, hyper kid who got put into a kindergarden class with a teacher who everyone told us didn't like boys and hated hyper boys. Unfortunately, they were right. He didn't do well and they recommended that he repeat. They also recommended Ritalin. The repeat would have been OK but no way was he going back to that teacher and no way was he being given drugs for the crime of being a normal boy. They forced him to go through testing and despite the claims of the kindergarden teacher it turned out he was not behind but was ahead so that ended it. Given that he was less than a week from the cutoff date we probably should have waited another year to start him in school. We didn't. Such is life. There's nothing we can do about it now and he's been blessed with more talent and brains than most and less than some and he's the kind who will work hard at it and persevere so in the long run it really shouldn't make a whole lot of difference. Given the choice to do it over again I think he would have had a lot more fun the past few years if we had waited a year but then again he might not have learned the life lessons that he has.

BTW, BBHD brings up something that is a viable option for the few who can afford it and that is a year of postgraduate school.

quote:

Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
But holding a kid back, say, in middle school, for purely athletic reasons is not even close to being the same as deciding not to enroll a five year old with an August birthday.

Why not? Everyone has that choice, too.

quote:

... no way was he being given drugs for the crime of being a normal boy

Truer words were never written. I've met your son. To think they wanted to give him this powerful psychoactive drug in kindergarten? Basically as a classroom management tool for the teachers. That borders on criminal, but it is frighteningly common.

quote:

Why not? Everyone has that choice, too.

That is simply untrue. The decision to hold back a kid in a middle school grade is not at the sole discretion of the parents, at least not anywhere I am familiar with such things. It requires the signoff of the school administration, who will almost certainly not agree to do it if the kid is not failing academically.

Nice try, though.

I don't believe in holding back kids in early grades. It sets up a culture of failure that the kid has to live down for years to come. I have seen this over and over. That is way too early to make a judgment call on a kids ability.