Rob,
It is fairly common (2 or 3 kids a year) in our area. It does require a transfer to a private school to repeat 8th grade and acceptance there is not a given but it happens pretty often. We could have done it pretty easily as the founder of one of those schools was a friend of mine. We've also got a couple of prestigious football factory private schools in our area that kids transfer to but it isn't easy to get a kid into them unless you have HOF bloodlines and/or legitimately qualify. In fact even the ones with HOF bloodlines probably have to be qualified.
Rob:
Not true. At least in most situations I know. Simply change school districts. In Arizona, that does not even require a change of residence if it is done before the beginning of high school.
By the way, I agree with the choice you made for your son in kindergarden. I did the same with my oldest son (Sept. birthday -- he turned 18 near the beginning of his senior year). He was a little older than many of his classmates instead of as much as two years younger (he had a couple of classmates who turned 19 in August and Sept of their senior year) had I started him "on time."
I also agree with those who say this is a major factor in the athletic success or failure of a kid -- in many cases it is the single most important factor. And it is a choice everyone has. I can't think of a bigger disadvantage for a boy -- in athletics and many, many other areas -- to be one of those kids who began kindergarden at a significantly younger age because their parents -- especially mothers -- believed they were ahead of others their age (particularly in reading). Most of them never completely overcome these disadvantages while in school and, as a result, miss out on so, so much.
Tough issue and good topic.
Not true. At least in most situations I know. Simply change school districts. In Arizona, that does not even require a change of residence if it is done before the beginning of high school.
By the way, I agree with the choice you made for your son in kindergarden. I did the same with my oldest son (Sept. birthday -- he turned 18 near the beginning of his senior year). He was a little older than many of his classmates instead of as much as two years younger (he had a couple of classmates who turned 19 in August and Sept of their senior year) had I started him "on time."
I also agree with those who say this is a major factor in the athletic success or failure of a kid -- in many cases it is the single most important factor. And it is a choice everyone has. I can't think of a bigger disadvantage for a boy -- in athletics and many, many other areas -- to be one of those kids who began kindergarden at a significantly younger age because their parents -- especially mothers -- believed they were ahead of others their age (particularly in reading). Most of them never completely overcome these disadvantages while in school and, as a result, miss out on so, so much.
Tough issue and good topic.
jemaz,
"especially mothers"
Yep.
You also bring up a very good point about the reading. My son was behind in first grade and going into second grade and it wasn't until he became obsessed with the Harry Potter books that his reading skills took off and he caught up and even went ahead. My daughter was on the other end of the spectrum with a January birthday and despite not getting a real interest in reading until she was 11 was still ahead of most of her classmates in reading throughout grade school because of the maturity advantage.
"especially mothers"
Yep.
You also bring up a very good point about the reading. My son was behind in first grade and going into second grade and it wasn't until he became obsessed with the Harry Potter books that his reading skills took off and he caught up and even went ahead. My daughter was on the other end of the spectrum with a January birthday and despite not getting a real interest in reading until she was 11 was still ahead of most of her classmates in reading throughout grade school because of the maturity advantage.
quote:Originally posted by Rob Kremer:
That is simply untrue.
Not if you switch schools. Where I live, I have a choice of the public school, or at least 10-15 other schools.
Switching schools AFTER eighth grade does present problems for sports, but parents (and coaches) know how to get around the rules. City basketball is a joke. All the stars go to one school this year, a different one next year.
lol, OR, if all the stars are coming to your school, you scramble to find a different school so you get your PT and points.
OK, sure, there are loopholes that can be exploited to do what the school administrators would not otherwise allow.
But that pretty much makes my point about the difference between holding a kid back for purely athletic reasons and choosing to enroll an August birthday kid a year later.
But that pretty much makes my point about the difference between holding a kid back for purely athletic reasons and choosing to enroll an August birthday kid a year later.
Speaking of advantages lost - I just measured my son this morning and he's up to 6'2 1/2" (first thing in the morning). Just think if we had waited a year we could have listed him at 6'3". 
Antzdad,
Should have seen all the scrambling in our area with Montana coming in. The first news was that he was going to a public school in the area and everyone was making adjustments to that.
Should have seen all the scrambling in our area with Montana coming in. The first news was that he was going to a public school in the area and everyone was making adjustments to that.
quote:Originally posted by jemaz:
I also agree with those who say this is a major factor in the athletic success or failure of a kid -- in many cases it is the single most important factor.
Tough issue and good topic.
I agree tough issue and good topic. jemez - I have great respect for your opinions but am scratching my head on this one while trying to understand.
Age trumps talent and desire?
BTW,
How many parents of 4 or 5 year olds who haven't already gone through this are reading HSBBWeb?
How many parents of 4 or 5 year olds who haven't already gone through this are reading HSBBWeb?
CD,
talent + desire > age
Age + talent + desire > talent + desire.
talent + desire > age
Age + talent + desire > talent + desire.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
Speaking of advantages lost - I just measured my son this morning and he's up to 6'2 1/2" (first thing in the morning). Just think if we had waited a year we could have listed him at 6'3".
ha, mine is 6'3", so what's that in baseball? It's 6'5" in basketball. Football height is pretty much honest, unless you're 5'11". Then, you're 6'1".
Antzdad,
6'3". 6'4" seems to be the ideal pitcher's height these days but 6'3" is pretty darn good. From what I've seen there's also some interest in the really tall ones as projects but those guys are pretty obvious.
From what I've seen the college coaches at least don't pay much attention to what is listed. They look for themselves so a kid who is really 6'2" with some size to him catches their interest.
I'll still take the 5'10" guy with command of a 95 mph fastball.
6'3". 6'4" seems to be the ideal pitcher's height these days but 6'3" is pretty darn good. From what I've seen there's also some interest in the really tall ones as projects but those guys are pretty obvious.
From what I've seen the college coaches at least don't pay much attention to what is listed. They look for themselves so a kid who is really 6'2" with some size to him catches their interest.
I'll still take the 5'10" guy with command of a 95 mph fastball.
CD:
I should clarify my point. I am mostly thinking about schools where there is more talent than positions. There are some schools where talent is enough. There are many schools where D1-level players must wait their turn, which frequently does not come until the junior season and on occasion the senior season.
In these cases, in particular, age can be a major, major factor.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I see many schools (and these are in the majority) where kids are three or four-year starters, even though they might have been career reserves at the stronger programs.
The other part where it is tough is where a talented player -- either of the traditional age or a little younger -- does not hit a growth spurt until later. Players older than the traditional breakdown can have an advantage over these guys that is impossible to overcome -- even if the older player is of average talent and the younger player is above average or better. It is even more pronounced if both players are average or even a little better.
I have always believed (and seen very often) that age is a great, great equalizer. My birthday is June 8. I did pretty well in both baseball and basketball. My dad would always say "if only you had one more year." Looking back, I see clearly what he meant. And today I most likely would have gotten that extra year -- in both Little League (which changed the cutoff date) and high school. It would have been great for me; not so great for the younger guy I would have displaced.
I should clarify my point. I am mostly thinking about schools where there is more talent than positions. There are some schools where talent is enough. There are many schools where D1-level players must wait their turn, which frequently does not come until the junior season and on occasion the senior season.
In these cases, in particular, age can be a major, major factor.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, I see many schools (and these are in the majority) where kids are three or four-year starters, even though they might have been career reserves at the stronger programs.
The other part where it is tough is where a talented player -- either of the traditional age or a little younger -- does not hit a growth spurt until later. Players older than the traditional breakdown can have an advantage over these guys that is impossible to overcome -- even if the older player is of average talent and the younger player is above average or better. It is even more pronounced if both players are average or even a little better.
I have always believed (and seen very often) that age is a great, great equalizer. My birthday is June 8. I did pretty well in both baseball and basketball. My dad would always say "if only you had one more year." Looking back, I see clearly what he meant. And today I most likely would have gotten that extra year -- in both Little League (which changed the cutoff date) and high school. It would have been great for me; not so great for the younger guy I would have displaced.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Age trumps talent and desire?
In elementary school 'animal ball' it always did. You get the kickball and run as far as you can before somebody grabs you and the others jump on you, pound you, and rip the ball away. No rules. No score. All recess. Every day.
Third grade never beat fourth grade. Fifth grade was always undefeated. (there were some gutsy athletes in third grade) Pretty simple terms, but these were my life lessons.
I never looked at how old or how young the competition was. I always focused on what my son needed to work on to get better. I figured that was the only thing he could control so why worry about what other people were doing or how old they were.
Every kid is born with a certain amount of ability. Every kid is born with a genetic make up. Some will have to work very hard to overcome some disadvantages based on their genetic make up. Some will have to learn how to work very hard once their genetic make up advantages are no longer enough to allow them to excell at the game.
Of course you can focus on other people and focus on what advantages they have on your kid. Or you can choose to focus on what you need to do and let the cards fall where they fall. When kids reach hs for the first time in their life for many kids they will be competing against older , stronger , more mature players. Others have been doing it their entire athletic life. I love the kids that have always had to battle , scratch and claw for success. They are tough hard nosed kids that understand they have to outwork everyone else.
It simply doesnt matter. You will either rise to the top or not. You will become a player or you wont. It will be about how much talent you have , how hard you have worked to maximize that talent , how tough you are , how dedicated you are , how much you really want it.
Of course you can always look for reasons why you didnt. I am one of those people that believes if your looking for reason why you can you dont have time to worry about the reasons you couldnt.
Every kid is born with a certain amount of ability. Every kid is born with a genetic make up. Some will have to work very hard to overcome some disadvantages based on their genetic make up. Some will have to learn how to work very hard once their genetic make up advantages are no longer enough to allow them to excell at the game.
Of course you can focus on other people and focus on what advantages they have on your kid. Or you can choose to focus on what you need to do and let the cards fall where they fall. When kids reach hs for the first time in their life for many kids they will be competing against older , stronger , more mature players. Others have been doing it their entire athletic life. I love the kids that have always had to battle , scratch and claw for success. They are tough hard nosed kids that understand they have to outwork everyone else.
It simply doesnt matter. You will either rise to the top or not. You will become a player or you wont. It will be about how much talent you have , how hard you have worked to maximize that talent , how tough you are , how dedicated you are , how much you really want it.
Of course you can always look for reasons why you didnt. I am one of those people that believes if your looking for reason why you can you dont have time to worry about the reasons you couldnt.
quote:Originally posted by CADad:
CD,
talent + desire > age
Age + talent + desire > talent + desire.
I can generally agree with this equation but jemaz said single most important factor which I dispute. Again, nobody has disputed in this thread that age is not an advantage in many cases. It is only an advantage however for the talented individual who applies himself imho.
I see double standards at play here. This is not directed to a member here in this thread but to a philosophy that may be in the back of some people's minds - If your kid is better than mine, then it must be because his parents rigged it that way. If my kid is better than yours, it must be because he is more talented.
How about this one. We are playing a district championship. Your son who has been younger than his team all his life is now a senior and he is pitching in this game as a 17 year old. A promising sophmore for the opposing team goes 4-4 against your son as a 15 year old and basically is the star of the game and basically ends your son's high school career and all of his fellow senior's career. How do we sell that one? The other kid had no pressure on him because he was younger and knew he would have more opportunites? Our guys did not play their best because they knew it would be their last game if they did not prevail? Your son must really be a failure if he could not get a 15 year old out? That other kid was just lucky today?There are always age discrepancies in the sport.
The biggest age discrepancy is in college. You have 18 year old freshmen whose parents expect big time playing time. Those 18 year olds are expected to go out and beat out a 22 year old who is 99% of the time much stronger and smarter from a baseball point of view. If parents want their kids to have a chance in that type of competitive environment, why on earth would they ever start planting the seeds at a much younger age that someone has an age advantage over them?
Go out and beat someone out ought to be the message. Let the chips fall where they may. If someone is gaming the system by using age rules or booster club favors or whatever poltical angle they may have, their kids will be exposed eventually. I will not back down from that feeling and thus if any youngsters are reading this thread, I suggest that kids get busy learning how to beat older kids out and not waste any time whatsoever worrying about it.
jemez - I just saw your follow on post so ignore some of my previous comments.
As an extreme example I was a mediocre at best HS pitcher as a 16yo senior with a late October birthday. I didn't have the talent to be a great HS pitcher, I was a D2 talent despite eventually playing D1 in another sport, but I almost certainly would have been a very good HS pitcher if I had been an 18yo senior with a late October birthday. I didn't throw very hard in HS yet when I was throwing BP to HS players at 18yo I had to take something off it to let them hit.
CD,
I don't disagree with what you are saying except for the part about nobody saying age doesn't result in an advantage/disadvantage and in fact I most emphatically agree with the part about not bringing it up as an excuse. There are quite a few posters saying there's an age advantage/disadvantage and then showing they believe the exact opposite a few lines later.
Of course there are 15yo who are extremely talented.
talent + desire > age.
However, there are very few of those kids and in the majority of situations it is still:
age + talent + desire > talent + desire.
Of course the 18yo freshman are competing with 21 and 22 yos for playing time. Unless they are extremely talented they don't get it. The norm is limited playing time as a freshman.
age + talent + desire > talent + desire
However, given equal upside the 19yo freshman may get playing time a bit sooner than the 18yo freshman perhaps as a sophmore instead of as a junior.
Where's the flogging a dead horse icon?
Thanks workinghard!
I don't disagree with what you are saying except for the part about nobody saying age doesn't result in an advantage/disadvantage and in fact I most emphatically agree with the part about not bringing it up as an excuse. There are quite a few posters saying there's an age advantage/disadvantage and then showing they believe the exact opposite a few lines later.
Of course there are 15yo who are extremely talented.
talent + desire > age.
However, there are very few of those kids and in the majority of situations it is still:
age + talent + desire > talent + desire.
Of course the 18yo freshman are competing with 21 and 22 yos for playing time. Unless they are extremely talented they don't get it. The norm is limited playing time as a freshman.
age + talent + desire > talent + desire
However, given equal upside the 19yo freshman may get playing time a bit sooner than the 18yo freshman perhaps as a sophmore instead of as a junior.
Where's the flogging a dead horse icon?
Thanks workinghard!
quote:Where's the flogging a dead horse icon?
Just for you CADad!
quote:Where's the flogging a dead horse icon?
That's funny
How about surrender? Seriously, we ought to bring the abstract arguments on both sides back to reality. The original question is how significant is age in recruiting? I say it is a factor but it will not prevent the dedicated athlete from achieving their goals. Some perhaps believe it will actually prevent a young man from playing in college. I dispute that assertion.
For some it will not be a factor at all. For others it will be something they will have to work to overcome. And for others it will be the excuse they use when people ask them why they didnt play in college.
Coach May. I agree 100% with your last post.
Forget all the nonsense about age and just play the game the best you can. Your example about the 15 yo against the 17 yo is right on the mark.
Every player will reach the level that his talent allows him to.
Most post about age are from people talking about their sons playing up an age bracket or two. I find it ironic that now we have complaints about playing with and competing against kids in your own grade who are a year older. Basically what some people are complaining about is nature, or growth spurts, which no one can control. If I hold my kid back entering K and he doesn't hit a major growth spurt until sophomore year he still probably won't make the middle school team because he will still be on the small side.
I know two kids who were held back, one entering K, the other repeated 8th grade for sports. Neither one is very big to this day. One is not playing any HS sports and the other is an average HS athlete who needed the extra year to compete in HS. If you looked at these two kids you would never know they are older than most of their classmates or think they had an unfair athletic advantage. My point is that you just can't make blanket statements that age gives kids an advantage. IMO it is determined by nature both in growing and in talent.
Forget all the nonsense about age and just play the game the best you can. Your example about the 15 yo against the 17 yo is right on the mark.
Every player will reach the level that his talent allows him to.
Most post about age are from people talking about their sons playing up an age bracket or two. I find it ironic that now we have complaints about playing with and competing against kids in your own grade who are a year older. Basically what some people are complaining about is nature, or growth spurts, which no one can control. If I hold my kid back entering K and he doesn't hit a major growth spurt until sophomore year he still probably won't make the middle school team because he will still be on the small side.
I know two kids who were held back, one entering K, the other repeated 8th grade for sports. Neither one is very big to this day. One is not playing any HS sports and the other is an average HS athlete who needed the extra year to compete in HS. If you looked at these two kids you would never know they are older than most of their classmates or think they had an unfair athletic advantage. My point is that you just can't make blanket statements that age gives kids an advantage. IMO it is determined by nature both in growing and in talent.
Coach May, I would say that is the human factor and pretty much sums it up. That is the reality!
Anybody see those 17 year old under armor HS all stars today?
You talking about the football game AntzDad? If so very impressive kids.
I truly think that the kids could care less about age differences--if they believe they are good enough they have no concern about age differences--if you as a parent instill the "age differential" thinking then you tend to erode their confidence.
By nature I have have always been confident in what I could do and what I was capable of, even to the point of being cocky---my boys have also been the same--they played up-- they went out for teams that most kids would have shied away from---one even said to me "Dad I can learn from the older guys. They can only make me better"--the last guy who went on to play at NMSU made a travel team as a rising junior and beat out college players for playing time in the outfield. As a rising senior on the same team he won the the MVP in what was then the most prestigious tournament in his area--the award put him on the same level with previous winners Mo Vaughan,BJ Surhoff and Dave Fleming, all MLB players
Perhaps if I have had them worrying about age differential they might none have done what they did in all three playing college ball and ENJOYING the game
By nature I have have always been confident in what I could do and what I was capable of, even to the point of being cocky---my boys have also been the same--they played up-- they went out for teams that most kids would have shied away from---one even said to me "Dad I can learn from the older guys. They can only make me better"--the last guy who went on to play at NMSU made a travel team as a rising junior and beat out college players for playing time in the outfield. As a rising senior on the same team he won the the MVP in what was then the most prestigious tournament in his area--the award put him on the same level with previous winners Mo Vaughan,BJ Surhoff and Dave Fleming, all MLB players
Perhaps if I have had them worrying about age differential they might none have done what they did in all three playing college ball and ENJOYING the game
quote:Originally posted by Coach_May:
You talking about the football game AntzDad? If so very impressive kids.
Yes. lol, I wouldn't want to chase those guys around (or try to run from them!).
When I watched that game all I could think of was how darn good they must be out there playing against other hs players on Friday nights. So fast , big and strong at that age. Tremendous athletes every one of them.
Hey, I have a very signifcant age advantage over those kids and I want no parts of them.
Studs!
This thread should have ended with AntzDad's "animal ball" post. Hilarious.
Think about it, really....would you want to be 19-20 years old and still be in high school?
This guys "mom" really held him back.
This guys "mom" really held him back.
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:quote:Originally posted by New2This:
Should your son use this or be allowed to use this as an excuse? No. Should you (he) recognize that this is a weakness and work to overcome it? Yes.
Why would you want to discuss an issue like this with your son?
Because he's a smart kid and figured it out on his own so I have to make sure he goes in the right, not the wrong, direction with how he (we) handles it. There's a saying is Spanish which roughly translates to "You can't hide the sun with a finger".
quote:Originally posted by ClevelandDad:
Brick - I am talking about planting seeds here. What kind of seeds do you think make the most sense to plant in your children?
1) After your son strikes out in the seventh inning with the tying run on base that effectively ends his and all his teammates season, you dutifully point out not to take it that hard because the kid who struck him out was older?
2) Same scenario - you encourage your son to never give up. You note how baseball is a game of failure and that the great ones are not afraid to fail. You encourage him to battle, not hang his head, and look forward to the next opportunity. The age of the participants never, ever comes up.
So what if a kid drives one year ahead of the others? Why even let it enter someone's thinking that someone else out there might have an advantage. Seems more productive to focus on creating your own advantage rather than lamenting someone elses. I am not arguing with anyone here about age providing an advantage. I can even understand some of the political arguments that lament that the system should not be gamed for sports. Even if we concede all that, I don't see the benefit of even slightly acknowledging it with your son.
What am I missing here?
CD - Just for the record, my son never worries about playing against kids that are older than he is. He has the self confidence to believe that his skills are good enough to compete with them and his formative baseball years were in a very competitive (i.e pressure) environment. Like Brickhouse said, he brought it up on his own, not me. I'm not going to tell him that being a year or more younger isn't a disadvantage because statistically I would be lying. I will tell him though to think and work on what he can do to overcome the disadvantage and that I firmly believe that in the long run he will catch up (maybe pass?), but he sure better work.
why don't some some of the folk who hold their kids back in order to excel athletically be consistant. it's been said that if you end up competing with older kids in the same grade, buck up make the best of it. Well they don't follow their own advice and have their kids compete with kids their own age if their not physicallly ready to excel. Some hypocracy here.
quote:why don't some some of the folk who hold their kids back in order to excel athletically be consistant.
Who here said they held their sons back to excel athletically ?
Oh, Boy...
You said it ihearbb. Oh boy!
Ok, so some here have established that leaving a child back a grade (for athletic purposes) might give them an advantage over the less physically mature players who actually belong in that grade and it is wrong for the parents to do that.
What about the player who has had private lessons, played on elite travel teams against better competition since 8 or 9, attended top camps in the country as well as top tournaments and showcases while in HS?
Wouldn't you agree that creates an advantaage for some over those that do not have those opportunities?
What about the player who has had private lessons, played on elite travel teams against better competition since 8 or 9, attended top camps in the country as well as top tournaments and showcases while in HS?
Wouldn't you agree that creates an advantaage for some over those that do not have those opportunities?