In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
I have an opinion but would like to hear what others think.
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If he's not the most dominant, he's on an extremely short list, and it doesn't take very long to call roll...
It's not a simple question, and the crucial undefined term guarantees no simple answers.
Most medals is impressive, but it's a sport that awards a lot of medals.
Factors weighing against bestowing the "most dominant" title are also related to the nature of his sport:
--Margins of victory in swimming are measured in hundredths of seconds, so the second place finisher seldom looks or feels dominated.
--Swimming records tend not to last very long, so although Phelps set 39 world records, only 7 of them stood as of a few days ago, and I'm not aware of him posting any distinctive number for the ages like a 56 game hitting streak that people think will never be equaled.
When I think of "most dominant," I think of athletes who were simply so much better than their opponents that they looked like they were engaged in a different activity. Tiger Woods at the 1997 Masters was playing a different game than the rest of the field. So was Serena Williams for much of her career. So was US women's gymnastics team this week.
I don't think "dominant" is the first word that comes to mind in describing Phelps's particular variety of excellence.
Do we need to decide if he's the most this or that. Can we just appreciate his achievements for what they are?
hshuler posted:In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
I have an opinion but would like to hear what others think.
I'm not sure that "most dominant" is the right term. Accomplishments are incredible. Longevity incredible. Medals won, obviously off the charts. But, many of his medals won were in races won by slim margins, as is the nature of swimming, I think. So, he has dominated in terms of wins but hasn't won consistently by wide margins. Tiger in his prime comes to mind. Gretzky, Carl Lewis, Tyson, Edwin Moses, Jim Brown, Pele, Ali, Wilt, Babe.. more so than Phelps.
Personally, I could sure have done without the finger wag and "come get it" hand motions after one of his wins last night... would prefer our country to be represented in a classier, more humble manner. Just me.
Haha.. typing same time as Swamp and much the same thought process... same thing just happened to me in another thread with Coach May. Don't know why but it feels good to be in great company 
Swampboy posted:It's not a simple question, and the crucial undefined term guarantees no simple answers.
Most medals is impressive, but it's a sport that awards a lot of medals.
Factors weighing against bestowing the "most dominant" title are also related to the nature of his sport:
--Margins of victory in swimming are measured in hundredths of seconds, so the second place finisher seldom looks or feels dominated.
--Swimming records tend not to last very long, so although Phelps set 39 world records, only 7 of them stood as of a few days ago, and I'm not aware of him posting any distinctive number for the ages like a 56 game hitting streak that people think will never be equaled.
When I think of "most dominant," I think of athletes who were simply so much better than their opponents that they looked like they were engaged in a different activity. Tiger Woods at the 1997 Masters was playing a different game than the rest of the field. So was Serena Williams for much of her career. So was US women's gymnastics team this week.
I don't think "dominant" is the first word that comes to mind in describing Phelps's particular variety of excellence.
Do we need to decide if he's the most this or that. Can we just appreciate his achievements for what they are?
Just a question, doesn't mean that you or I don't appreciate it. Wasn't trying to make this forum final judge and jury but simply wanted to know what others think about it.
Gretzky set records that may never be broken and dominated a professional sport in a way no one ever has except perhaps Chamberlain who was beaten by superior teams. He accounted for over 200 goals per season by himself for years - the leading scoring teams today score about 240 per season.
Has Phelps redefined swimming in the way Babe Ruth did with Baseball? Completely changed the sport? Sincerely asking as I don't know
I think Ruth was the most dominant athlete of All-Time
hshuler posted:In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
I have an opinion but would like to hear what others think.
Going on a limb here....
When you said "dominate athlete", I personally thought it to be someone that is good in more than one sport, or anything they try. The decathlon athletes come to mind, and yes, Bruce Jenner. Or Bo Jackson, or Russell Wilson. I think the Olympian gymnasts last night that defeated gravity with all their varied events would qualify.
Micheal Phelps is good. Great. Most medal winner, that may take a long time to be broken. But the second swimmer in the US relay last night had the best time OF ALL 32 SWIMMERS IN THE RACE. At 19, he got a gold medal along with the other 3 Americans. Watch his name become more familiar because we have heard it around here for years....Townley Haas.
I think you can be the most dominate athlete in your sport, because there are a lot of those, without being the most dominate athlete of all time.
How many athletes dominate for 16 years? Especially in a sport as physically demanding, rapidly changing and against young competition coming in every year? I don't think many, if any.
In a sport where world records are broken at almost every world stage event, Michael Phelps has continued to dominate over 16 years. He's continuing to beat the young studs. He does it in multiple strokes and different length swims. He does it individually and as part of a team (relay). Remember, he has won 15, I believe now, individual gold medals and 17 individual medals overall. Has set 39 world records (many of which been broken, but that's a lot of WRs).
I'm not saying he is the most dominating athlete of all time, but he has to be up there very, very close to the top. I would say Michael Jordan has to be up there as well with 6 consecutive Championships. But, remember, he was part of a team. Phelps is doing his damage in an individual sport - aside from the relays.
Personally, I have similar thoughts. He's won gold as a 15 year old and as a 31 year-old. I also like the fact that you shared about winning as an individual and as part of a team. I believe 14 of his medals are in individual events.
More food for thought...
2004 - six gold / eight total
2008 - eight gold / eight total
2012 - four gold / six total
2016 - three gold / three total
Total - 21 total gold medals / two silver medals / two bronze medals = 25 Olympic medals
The next highest is a Soviet gymnast who won 18 total medals (nine gold) from '56 - 64
The third highest is a Soviet gymnast who won 15 total (seven gold) from '20 - '28
Again, no right or wrong answers...just opinions.
My vote goes for Ricky Bobby. “If you ain’t first, you’re last.”
Shoveit4Ks posted:My vote goes for Ricky Bobby. “If you ain’t first, you’re last.”
'You don't drive with your eyes... You drive with your heart...'
Sorry man... I'm all jacked up on Mountain Dew...
Yes he is.
Most accomplished? I think so. Most dominant? Thought provoking question. I agree that dominating a particular sport for such a long period of time puts him in elite company.
keewart posted:hshuler posted:In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
I have an opinion but would like to hear what others think.
Going on a limb here....
When you said "dominate athlete", I personally thought it to be someone that is good in more than one sport, or anything they try. The decathlon athletes come to mind, and yes, Bruce Jenner. Or Bo Jackson, or Russell Wilson. I think the Olympian gymnasts last night that defeated gravity with all their varied events would qualify.
Micheal Phelps is good. Great. Most medal winner, that may take a long time to be broken. But the second swimmer in the US relay last night had the best time OF ALL 32 SWIMMERS IN THE RACE. At 19, he got a gold medal along with the other 3 Americans. Watch his name become more familiar because we have heard it around here for years....Townley Haas.
I think you can be the most dominate athlete in your sport, because there are a lot of those, without being the most dominate athlete of all time.
Russell Wilson??
Does Phelps ever have a bad day? The great ones have the ability to perform at the highest level in the most pressure-packed moments.
And he was only like .6 off the world record and .4 off the Olympic record. He's a beast for sure!!
hshuler posted:In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
Hard to argue against it...but...I think it's an inclusive group along with guys like Tiger, Michael, Serena, and Gretzky. Hard to rank them. And now Simone Biles. 4 straight world/Olympic championships (a first), beating the field this year by more than the last last 9 olympic winning margins combined. That's dominance.
How's leading your team to eleven championships in thirteen years and being so strong defensively to be able to defeat the team with the most dominant scorer? There weren't many clutch situations where Bill Russell didn't dominate Wilt Chamberlain.
keewart posted:hshuler posted:In your opinion, is Michael Phelps the most dominant athlete of all time?
I have an opinion but would like to hear what others think.
Going on a limb here....
When you said "dominate athlete", I personally thought it to be someone that is good in more than one sport, or anything they try. The decathlon athletes come to mind, and yes, Bruce Jenner. Or Bo Jackson, or Russell Wilson. I think the Olympian gymnasts last night that defeated gravity with all their varied events would qualify.
Micheal Phelps is good. Great. Most medal winner, that may take a long time to be broken. But the second swimmer in the US relay last night had the best time OF ALL 32 SWIMMERS IN THE RACE. At 19, he got a gold medal along with the other 3 Americans. Watch his name become more familiar because we have heard it around here for years....Townley Haas.
I think you can be the most dominate athlete in your sport, because there are a lot of those, without being the most dominate athlete of all time.
I don't get the fascination with bo Jackson. Yes he was a good athlete but he wasn't that great in Baseball and his Football career was strong but short. He did not come Close to making the HOF in either Sport.
IMO Bo Jackson is not Close to being even a top100 athlete all time.
BTW I do think that phelps is the most accomplished athlete ever. there are a lot of medals in Swimming but it is still very hard to win them, for example lazlo czeh who is one of the best swimmers in the last 15 years could never win a Gold medal due to phelps.
It is true that Swimming is not done in every Country (no swimmers from africa for example) but phelps did face super tough competition with lots of world record holders and always came out on top.
not sure if he is the most dominant (whatever that means) but he certainly is the most accomplished even if you can't compare just pure medal Count. He dominated 4 straight olympic games, nobody had ever done that to this extend.
Secretariat gets my vote, and a carrot. ;-)
Secretariat not only won the Triple Crown, he set speed records in all three races. His record win at the Kentucky Derby still stands as the Churchill Downs track record for 1 1⁄4 miles, as does his record win at the Belmont Stakes which stands as the American record for 1 1⁄2 miles on the dirt. Due to a timer malfunction, his time in the Preakness Stakes was not recognized as a stakes record until 2012.
Not only was he dominant during his athletic time he continues to be dominant all-time.
BTW...Phelps is incredible as well.
RJM posted:How's leading your team to eleven championships in thirteen years and being so strong defensively to be able to defeat the team with the most dominant scorer? There weren't many clutch situations where Bill Russell didn't dominate Wilt Chamberlain.
Not saying that I agree or disagree but interesting read.
How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
Serena.
bballman posted:How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
What about Edwin Moses winning 100+ consecutive finals in 400 meters hurdles over a ten year period? That meets HShuler's standard of never having a bad day.
As far as owning a team sport, it's hard to top Luv Baseball's examples of Gretzky and Chamberlain.
Or Maravich in college basketball: He owns the three highest scoring average seasons in NCAA history. No college player has ever come within 2 points per game in any season of Maravich's average in his worst year in college (which may not be as impressive as Chamberlain owning the top four highest scoring average NBA seasons).
I can't say that my thoughts are well informed or even well formed on this and certainly they're not original, but I have a hard time in these types of discussions keeping athletes like Phelps and Bolt in the same category as athletes like Jordan, Bo Jackson, and Serena Williams.
Though the first group shares with the second group attributes like heart, hard work, superior genes, dedication, and refined technique, there is something essentially different between participating in a race and a game. The mention of an eager and very well trained animal like Secretariat is pretty apt, and I'll add the name of formerly the most famous racer of all, the chemically enhanced human animal Lance Armstrong, to illustrate that point that these athletes are essentially machines conditioned and trained to repeat a series of motions in the most efficient means possible.
An athlete who plays a game like tennis, soccer, or basketball is engaged in a completely different, infinitely more complex sort of activity. There are repeated motions, but overall there is constant improvisation, adjustment, and direct competition with an opponent, as well as, in the case of team sports, constantly changing collaborative interaction with teammates. It's just on a whole other level than just running, or just swimming, or just riding a bike.
So for me, I would never classify Phelps or Bolt as the best or most dominant athlete ever, if by saying "athlete" we classify them in the same category as the greats in the second group, because as amazing as they may be, there's something intrinsically less complex and less accomplished in their achievements.
First off - I think what Phelps has been able to accomplish is truly amazing... Especially in a sport that one would figure to be dominated by younger athletes who haven't had injuries and other "life's experiences" to slow you down. He is a special athlete that doesn't come along all that often. However, has Phelps "won" the world championships every year for the last 16+ years for each of the events he competes? Tough to compare to Usain Bolt, who is just at another level that very few can ever reach and also seems to be at the top every year even during the world championships... Does Bolt ever lose in the one or two races he competes in? Watching him get into another gear is unreal - imagine him stealing bases for your favorite team or tracking a fly ball in a gap!
A criticism I have against calling him the most dominant athlete of all time... Do dominant athletes in other sports "get" to "retire" for a few years, only to work their butts off in order to be back at the top of their sport in order to compete in an event that occurs every 4 years. Is there a swimming professional league somewhere? What kind of 'season' does it have? Hard to compare to other well funded sports where professional leagues exist and the schedule is grueling/taxing on your body. I would think more time is spent training in swimming, but what do I know!
bballman posted:How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
There is the recency bias with Biles, Bolt, and Phelps, but I would give the nod to Bolt. It is hard for me to judge Babe Ruth given that I never saw him play. However, I have seen this same topic on other message boards and the people who say Ruth is the most dominant sure make a great point for him when you look at how he changed the game and dominated as a P and hitter.
Most dominant swimmer? Yes. Athlete? No.
bballman posted:How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
Did you hear that with the normal progression of 100 meter times his world record (9.58) shouldn't have been achieved for another 30 years? Amazing!
JohnF posted:First off - I think what Phelps has been able to accomplish is truly amazing... Especially in a sport that one would figure to be dominated by younger athletes who haven't had injuries and other "life's experiences" to slow you down. He is a special athlete that doesn't come along all that often. However, has Phelps "won" the world championships every year for the last 16+ years for each of the events he competes? Tough to compare to Usain Bolt, who is just at another level that very few can ever reach and also seems to be at the top every year even during the world championships... Does Bolt ever lose in the one or two races he competes in? Watching him get into another gear is unreal - imagine him stealing bases for your favorite team or tracking a fly ball in a gap!
A criticism I have against calling him the most dominant athlete of all time... Do dominant athletes in other sports "get" to "retire" for a few years, only to work their butts off in order to be back at the top of their sport in order to compete in an event that occurs every 4 years. Is there a swimming professional league somewhere? What kind of 'season' does it have? Hard to compare to other well funded sports where professional leagues exist and the schedule is grueling/taxing on your body. I would think more time is spent training in swimming, but what do I know!
Good points but Phelps has won a ton of world championship as well.
Again, not saying that he is...just interested in hearing the many great perspectives on the matter.
d-mac posted:bballman posted:How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
There is the recency bias with Biles, Bolt, and Phelps, but I would give the nod to Bolt. It is hard for me to judge Babe Ruth given that I never saw him play. However, I have seen this same topic on other message boards and the people who say Ruth is the most dominant sure make a great point for him when you look at how he changed the game and dominated as a P and hitter.
Plus the fact that he "out-homered" several major league teams some years is pretty remarkable.
JohnF posted:First off - I think what Phelps has been able to accomplish is truly amazing... Especially in a sport that one would figure to be dominated by younger athletes who haven't had injuries and other "life's experiences" to slow you down. He is a special athlete that doesn't come along all that often. However, has Phelps "won" the world championships every year for the last 16+ years for each of the events he competes? Tough to compare to Usain Bolt, who is just at another level that very few can ever reach and also seems to be at the top every year even during the world championships... Does Bolt ever lose in the one or two races he competes in? Watching him get into another gear is unreal - imagine him stealing bases for your favorite team or tracking a fly ball in a gap!
A criticism I have against calling him the most dominant athlete of all time... Do dominant athletes in other sports "get" to "retire" for a few years, only to work their butts off in order to be back at the top of their sport in order to compete in an event that occurs every 4 years. Is there a swimming professional league somewhere? What kind of 'season' does it have? Hard to compare to other well funded sports where professional leagues exist and the schedule is grueling/taxing on your body. I would think more time is spent training in swimming, but what do I know!
I would definitely vote for Phelps. He is unbelievable. I would not vote for Usain Bolt. Michael Phelps swims in all different kinds of events, and Bolt does not run in all different kinds of races. If Bolt was as dominate in another event, say long jump, as Carl Lewis was, then I would consider giving him a vote. Saying that swimming has so many opportunities is true, however, track athletes have the ability to compete in a lot of events too.
JohnF posted:First off - I think what Phelps has been able to accomplish is truly amazing... Especially in a sport that one would figure to be dominated by younger athletes who haven't had injuries and other "life's experiences" to slow you down. He is a special athlete that doesn't come along all that often. However, has Phelps "won" the world championships every year for the last 16+ years for each of the events he competes? Tough to compare to Usain Bolt, who is just at another level that very few can ever reach and also seems to be at the top every year even during the world championships... Does Bolt ever lose in the one or two races he competes in? Watching him get into another gear is unreal - imagine him stealing bases for your favorite team or tracking a fly ball in a gap!
A criticism I have against calling him the most dominant athlete of all time... Do dominant athletes in other sports "get" to "retire" for a few years, only to work their butts off in order to be back at the top of their sport in order to compete in an event that occurs every 4 years. Is there a swimming professional league somewhere? What kind of 'season' does it have? Hard to compare to other well funded sports where professional leagues exist and the schedule is grueling/taxing on your body. I would think more time is spent training in swimming, but what do I know!
I doubt that he truly "took off" all of that time. I am sure he didn't just drop swimming and working out, and then had to drop 40 lbs. because he got fat.
JohnF posted:First off - I think what Phelps has been able to accomplish is truly amazing... Especially in a sport that one would figure to be dominated by younger athletes who haven't had injuries and other "life's experiences" to slow you down. He is a special athlete that doesn't come along all that often. However, has Phelps "won" the world championships every year for the last 16+ years for each of the events he competes? Tough to compare to Usain Bolt, who is just at another level that very few can ever reach and also seems to be at the top every year even during the world championships... Does Bolt ever lose in the one or two races he competes in? Watching him get into another gear is unreal - imagine him stealing bases for your favorite team or tracking a fly ball in a gap!
A criticism I have against calling him the most dominant athlete of all time... Do dominant athletes in other sports "get" to "retire" for a few years, only to work their butts off in order to be back at the top of their sport in order to compete in an event that occurs every 4 years. Is there a swimming professional league somewhere? What kind of 'season' does it have? Hard to compare to other well funded sports where professional leagues exist and the schedule is grueling/taxing on your body. I would think more time is spent training in swimming, but what do I know!
Phelps only retired for a year. Then he was back in the pool. I believe there was a basketball player who did something similar.
Swimmers don't just compete every four years. There are World Championships every year. There are invitations. Some swim for swim clubs. Many of them are young enough they're swimming for colleges. How would you like to get in the starting block as a freshman, look to your side and see Stanford freshman Katie Ledecky?
hshuler posted:bballman posted:How bout this one? Usain Bolt - Won his 3rd straight gold medal in the 100m. Will probably win the 200m when that comes up soon. Prior to him doing this, no one had ever won the 100m or 200m in consecutive Olympics. He has won both in 2 consecutive Olympics and will probably win both in 3. Not sure there's ever been anyone to dominate like this.
Did you hear that with the normal progression of 100 meter times his world record (9.58) shouldn't have been achieved for another 30 years? Amazing!
Bob Beamon held the long jump record for 23 years.
If you want to talk greatest athlete and include track it would have to be a decathlete Daley Thompson of Great Britain won back to back golds in the decathlon in 80 and 84. He broke the world record for the event four times. Phelps and Ledecky are the closest swimming big time stars to a decathlete. A name I haven't seen appear in the conversation is Carl Lewis.
For the record. Since 2001 for all International Long Course tournaments, Michael Phelps has won 82 total medals. 65 gold, 14 silver and 3 bronze. This is basically including the Olympics, the World Championships and the Pan Pacific Championships. This doesn't include any short course tournaments (that would be yards). The only years he did not compete at all in International Long Course tournaments were 2013 and 2015.
He took off 2013. He was training in 2015. He didn't compete so he wouldn't wear himself out. He's on the plus side of thirty now.