If the fielder is in the act of receiving a throw, that is one thing. But the first baseman standing around as the runner is rounding first is another.
I neglected that exception in my prior post, but I agree. The runner is responsible for staying out of the way of a fielder (or at least the first infielder to attempt to field the ball.) The fielder in the act of fielding is protected. That is a part of the runners high speed decision-making... who has or doesn't yet have the ball and what are they doing with it.
This thread has elicited such passionate opinions. It only goes to show that the rule as written seems clear but it’s the interpretation of the play that is sometimes difficult. Let me give an example of a play that happened a few weeks ago in a competitive high school district game. You make the call.
The game is tied 8-8 in the top of the eighth inning (extra innings). The visiting team has a runner on 2nd base with two outs. The batter hits a line shot just out of reach of the SS and into left field. The runner at 2nd is off at the crack of the bat and at full speed rounds third and continues running full speed about 6 feet outside the line toward home. The left fielder scoops the ball cleanly but seeing the speed of the runner going home lets go a throw to home that is drifting away from home plate toward the outside. The catcher who is waiting at the plate for the throw sees the ball drifting toward the outside so comes up the line and toward the fence (outside) to catch the ball. As destiny sometimes has it, the throw takes the catcher right into the path of the runner who is now about 10 feet up the line and 6 feet out. The runner seeing the catcher jumps to the outside about 1 foot just before making contact with the catcher and ends up missing him. The runner, though he has broken his stride, continues towards home plate and lunges for the plate with his outstretched arm. He comes up about a foot short. The catcher catches the high outside throw almost at the same time but a fraction after the runner has jumped outside. The catcher turns and throws high to the pitcher covering home plate. At the same time the pitcher catches the high throw; the runner makes a second lunge with his body and touches the corner of the plate just before being tagged.
Is he safe or out and why? I’ll let you know if you’re interested what the call was, what the coaches said and some other thoughts.
The game is tied 8-8 in the top of the eighth inning (extra innings). The visiting team has a runner on 2nd base with two outs. The batter hits a line shot just out of reach of the SS and into left field. The runner at 2nd is off at the crack of the bat and at full speed rounds third and continues running full speed about 6 feet outside the line toward home. The left fielder scoops the ball cleanly but seeing the speed of the runner going home lets go a throw to home that is drifting away from home plate toward the outside. The catcher who is waiting at the plate for the throw sees the ball drifting toward the outside so comes up the line and toward the fence (outside) to catch the ball. As destiny sometimes has it, the throw takes the catcher right into the path of the runner who is now about 10 feet up the line and 6 feet out. The runner seeing the catcher jumps to the outside about 1 foot just before making contact with the catcher and ends up missing him. The runner, though he has broken his stride, continues towards home plate and lunges for the plate with his outstretched arm. He comes up about a foot short. The catcher catches the high outside throw almost at the same time but a fraction after the runner has jumped outside. The catcher turns and throws high to the pitcher covering home plate. At the same time the pitcher catches the high throw; the runner makes a second lunge with his body and touches the corner of the plate just before being tagged.
Is he safe or out and why? I’ll let you know if you’re interested what the call was, what the coaches said and some other thoughts.
Panther Proud....Based on your description of the play I call the runner safe. Running "6 foot" outside the base path is (as I was trained, a non-issue) as the base path is the path the runner takes to get to the next base, this takes into account the "rounding of bases" unless the runner in an attempt to avoid the tag moves three feet or more from the "path" if a player has the ball and is attempting to make a tag. The "one foot" you described is within the tolerated limit. But it all up to the "judgement" of the man making the call!
Well, spit it out PantherProud, the suspense is killing me.
Must be a commerical break.
Must be a commerical break.
Bless his heart.
Sorry, I had to get some work done.
The runner was called safe. The reasoning was, as En Fuego correctly stated, the runner sets his own baseline. The runner also made the correct decision to do all he could to keep from making contact with the catcher. The catcher was making a legal play on the ball so obstruction is not applicable. The runner was not trying to avoid a tag since the catcher didn't have the ball when the move by the runner was made. The safe call to me was obvious much to the chagrin of the home town fans. This run turned out to be the winning run. I think the call would have been more complicated if contact had been made by the runner. First you would have to consider if the contact was malicious, then if not malicious was it intentional and rule from there. It could even be incidental contact.
I was the home plate umpire and made the safe call. The home coach came to me and said the runner had to run down the line and my reply of course was that the runner sets his own baseline so that reasoning was not valid. Of course the visiting coach was pleased and said the call was correct. The home AD, who had been the previous baseball coach for many years said the call was correct and he would straighten out the baseball coach on the rules. Needless to say, I'm not saying who the two teams were.
The runner was called safe. The reasoning was, as En Fuego correctly stated, the runner sets his own baseline. The runner also made the correct decision to do all he could to keep from making contact with the catcher. The catcher was making a legal play on the ball so obstruction is not applicable. The runner was not trying to avoid a tag since the catcher didn't have the ball when the move by the runner was made. The safe call to me was obvious much to the chagrin of the home town fans. This run turned out to be the winning run. I think the call would have been more complicated if contact had been made by the runner. First you would have to consider if the contact was malicious, then if not malicious was it intentional and rule from there. It could even be incidental contact.
I was the home plate umpire and made the safe call. The home coach came to me and said the runner had to run down the line and my reply of course was that the runner sets his own baseline so that reasoning was not valid. Of course the visiting coach was pleased and said the call was correct. The home AD, who had been the previous baseball coach for many years said the call was correct and he would straighten out the baseball coach on the rules. Needless to say, I'm not saying who the two teams were.
quote:runner sets his own baseline
PP, is that in the rules somewhere?
I thought it was a trick question -- the runner touched the plate before being tagged. Sounds safe to me. Sorry to make the interpretation more simple than it was....but the only appropriate reasoning was, "did the runner travel outside the baseline to avoid a tag?", which he clearly did not.
FO,
The first rule that comes to mind is rule 8.4.2.a.2 which states when a play is being made on a runner he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.
A couple of examples though. Have you heard of the 'rabbit in the outfield' play. In this play the runner, usually at first, establishes his starting position in right field and as long as he runs directly to second he is staying in the baseline. You don't see this play often but it is done to try to force an unsuspecting pitcher or fielder to make a play thus allowing another runner to advance. Also, you frequently see a runner at second establish his starting position well behind second to get a good view of the SS or other fielder.
The first rule that comes to mind is rule 8.4.2.a.2 which states when a play is being made on a runner he establishes his baseline as directly between his position and the base toward which he is moving.
A couple of examples though. Have you heard of the 'rabbit in the outfield' play. In this play the runner, usually at first, establishes his starting position in right field and as long as he runs directly to second he is staying in the baseline. You don't see this play often but it is done to try to force an unsuspecting pitcher or fielder to make a play thus allowing another runner to advance. Also, you frequently see a runner at second establish his starting position well behind second to get a good view of the SS or other fielder.
Yep, hadn't thought about it.
Thought about dropped third strike and runner heading to dug out and not out until in the dugout.
Thought about dropped third strike and runner heading to dug out and not out until in the dugout.
What I'm hearing is what I thought. There is a lot of judgement involved. I've asked several players what they are supposed to do and I don't get the same answer twice. I'm for going back to real baseball where the runner can run, slide or whatever as long as it is not malicious. All sports have some injury risks. Catchers need to be smart. It's their decision to come up the baseline. They better watch out for 200 lb guy coming at them at full speed. Not many are going to change change directions like Emmit Smith so the catcher has the opportunity to see the ball, feel the runner and get out of the way as needed or take the chance on the collision.
Cowboy, just remember that you don't HAVE to slide. BUT, the one thing that you cannot do, is run over someone. If blue is doing his job, he will get the obstruction call. It is a delayed dead ball, so be patient. Nothing has to be called in .2 seconds.
PProud, I'd figure he'd be safe since it was a tie score.............
(Just kidding.)
PProud, I'd figure he'd be safe since it was a tie score.............
(Just kidding.)
Well MMWS lets look at it this way. The defense had two good shots at getting the runner. First a good throw to the plate from left field would have nailed him and second a decent throw from the catcher to the pitcher would have got him. If you execute properly you usually come out fine, if not well you see what happens.
Understand completely. Seen it way too many times. Shoot me an email and let me know who/what/where.
Man this runner must of been slow. 