Slowing down your bat speed for better control

I would think the quicker the better...
Hard to generate power at 75%

I am really not sure what he is talking about Doughnutman. But I have told a few kids over the years to not gear up so much. To swing under control. I use the term 80%. Sometimes kids over swing and the swing mechanics can break down. What happens is they still generate very good bat speed and power but they dont break down by over swinging. They stay under control. I have told this to the guys that were very good hitters with alot of power.

I respect the coach. He is very good. And I mean very good! Just trying to understand the reasoning. I am from the school of "swing hard just in case you hit it."

We shall see.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I respect the coach. He is very good. And I mean very good! Just trying to understand the reasoning. I am from the school of "swing hard just in case you hit it."

We shall see.

I think Coach May hit it on the head when he said, "swing under control". My thing is though, that if you have the right mechanics, you can swing hard and still be under control. A lot of times swing hard to me is tense and muscled up, I prefer, swing fast, but I would never tell someone to swing at less than full effort. They would just need to go back to the drawing board to get the same effort, but this time "under control".

Well I can tell you I had a kid that was very talented. He would hit bombs in bp with a fluid sweet stroke from the leftside. Then in game situations his swing looked muscled up. He just wasnt having the success in game situations his talent should have been producing. I told him to take his bp swing to the plate and stay under control with an 80% effort. Once he started doing this he simply exploded at the plate. He started as a freshman at NC State and hit in the middle of the order. Was selected to the CPL All Star team this past summer as well.

I would wait and see what happens. You might be pleasantly surprised.

Yes I agree power. What the player learned was to stay under control. By focusing on a nice fluid under control swing he stopped muscleing up. You can over swing. By saying 80% what your really saying is dont overswing. So instead of swinging at 120% they now are swinging at 100% under control. Does that make sense?

I am looking forward to see what happens. Like I said, the coach is very good. About a thousand times better than me, that is for sure.

I saw an interview where Alex Rodriguez says he swings at 90% almost always and will turn it up to 95% only rarely.

I will time batspeed sometimes off the tee and 90% produces some very good hits.

I think anything less than 85% is way too light.

Pujols max batspeed is probably 95 and if he swung at 75% this would be way to slow. Seventy five percent of 95 mph is bat speed of 71 mph which would only produce a max hit on a perfectly hit ball with backspin of 310 to 350 feet. To hit a ball 450 feet batspeed needs to be somewhere around 90mph.

The coaches percentage is too low.

I was thinking about it I think the coach knows my son very well. If he asked him to slow it down 5%, my son would slow it down to 99.9%. 75-80% is probably his way of getting him to swing 95%. The coach is good.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Yes I agree power. What the player learned was to stay under control. By focusing on a nice fluid under control swing he stopped muscleing up. You can over swing. By saying 80% what your really saying is dont overswing. So instead of swinging at 120% they now are swinging at 100% under control. Does that make sense?

Yes, Sir! What you also might have done, unknowingly, was to just get him to relax by letting him know it was okay if he didn't TRY to drop bombs in the game. I agree 100% that if you muscle up, you lose control of direction, balance, weight transfer, speed, stretch, it all goes south!

I was just thinking about this the other day. When I am doing underhand flips I can swing as hard as I want and make hard contact. However, when I go to live pitch I do not constantly make hard contact.

I have been told that smooth is quick in both hitting and fielding. With that being said, whenever I am smooth in the cage I hit better during live BP. What do you guys think?

Often kids confuse effort and batspeed, thinking they are absolutes. They are thinking they want to hit the ball hard so they believe they must muscle up for the swing. The swing mechanics break down so not only do they not hit the ball square but batspeed also suffers.

Hitters will often get caught up in the importance of the moment/situation, and instead of relaxing they try to put in that little extra effort in order to get a good result. More than once I've yelled "Breath" at a hitter that was getting very geared up during an at bat. If they want to put in extra effort I want it to be mental and in their focus versus a Herculean effort.

Prefer hitters to think of smooth and fast versus hard, with smooth being the key to maintaining good swing mechanics so they able to utilize the fast mindset.

Golf is perhaps the sport that best typifies the smooth and fast type swing action in maintaining control and distance. Ain't no foul balls in golf. Actually for some of us there are, but with a 2 stroke penalty.

JMO

quote:

Leverage

Leverage Pujols bat speed is 86 mph.

Bat speed and exit speed, two different things. Exit speed can be higher from a player with lower bat speed.

Takes 100 mph exit speed to travel 400 ft.

I have one that never gets cheated. :] Get your money's worth and he does think of his swing as a collision, how hard can it happen.

Two strikes cut it down a little. I think the key thing is.. is he having success rocking the ground/ yes then rock the ground, no, bring it down a little .

showme,

Not doubting you, but how do we know for sure that Pujol's bat speed is 86 mph? Has that been proven or is it an estimate? Is it 86 mph on every swing or on certain swings?

Is there a device that measures "in game" bat speed accurately? I know that Rawlings has things in the developmental stages, but I haven't seen it actually work yet.

IMO, 100% would be absolute perfection. Around 90-95% is best because 101% will be a disaster. Attack under control is the key. Therefore 80% is better than 100.1% which would be out of control. Absolute perfection is impossible to maintain with any consistency.

I'll attribute this saying to ARod, That is were I first heard it said.

"80 gives you a 100"

Which means to me, Don't over swing.
Keep your swing under control.

EH

I believe where this whole thing breaks down is believing there is a 100% relationship between effort ( swing 100%,99.99%,etc) and batspeed (must swing at 100% effort to achieve 100% batspeed).

I don't believe that is always the case in most hitters. While a hitter may give what he believes is 100% max effort, how often does that effort actually achieve his max batspeed? My guess (WAG??) is that rarely is the case in reality. I believe more often than not what the hitter percieves as less than max effort produces the best batspeed.

How often did you crush a ball and were amazed it went that far when you felt you didn't swing hard? You may not have felt it was a hard swing but it most certainly was a fast swing.

Understand I am NOT saying to swing easy. Smooth and fast is the object and you can't do that thinking easy. The key is finding your individual effort level that consistently produces your max batspeed; in my opinion that effort level is almost always less than 100%; I believe it is usually in the 80%-90% effort range for most hitters, particularly those in HS.

I don't believe a coach is saying he wants 70-80% batspeed but rather wants the hitter to stay in balance and swing with a good smooth fast swing in the effort to maximize batspeed by maintianing sound swing mechanics. 100% effort with a poor swing certainly isn't going produce a hitters max batspeed or best results.

Once again,JMO. I climbed out on that limb so get your saws out.LOL.

S. Abrams,

I agree with you on all of that.

Effort is always a difficult thing to put a finger on anyway. To me it is an appearance thing. Those that look well balanced, smooth, and under control seem to give out less effort and everything looks easy. And in most cases I guess this is what we are talking about. Kind of like those who run the "hardest" usually run the "slowest".

PG it's a maximum number on a 31.5 oz bat determined By Washington University as he was fitted with electronics. 86.99

This same article is where Don Slaught measured him matching the plane of a pitch for 5 feet with an up swing... How To Build The perfect batter.

http://slowthegamedown.com/Med...Perfect%20Batter.pdf

My thoughts:
Don't confuse 'bat speed' with a swing being 'short' or quick to the ball. It's sort of like comparing a football qb that has a quick release to the qb with great velocity.

2) when you are really in the groove, you feel like you can swing harder and still make good contact...

I have always taught one swing. Balanced , under control , short and quick to the baseball allowing it to get deep. You dont swing harder to hit the ball harder. You dont swing harder because the pitcher is throwing harder. Timing and swing effort are two different things. You should have one swing. When a player muscles up or gears up he comes out of his swing mechanics. When he stays relaxed and under control he can produce his best swings and his most consistent swing process. jmo

I have used this 'cue' over the years to get a batter to relax his biceps when he swings.

All the work is done by the triceps in straightening the arms.

As power intimated, swing smooth and loose. Let the tool (bat) do the work.

The concept of promoting the idea that a hitter should deliver less than a maximum (controlled) effort swing doesn't set well with me for a couple of reasons. The first is that you don't want less than optimum results so why bother with less than optimum power generation. Do you really want to teach a player, that wants to get to the Pro level, to just be happy putting it weakly in play? Secondly, how do we measure the 100% effort against the 80%, or 60% and then how do you teach it? How does the hitters body know 80% from 90%, or 70%? It can't, so why use cues that aren't possible to execute? Andre Aggassi changed the way Tennis was played. He was the first player that hit every ball with maximum effort from both sides and even on the return. Now it's common place.

Believe me, as a former Karate/Tae Kwon Do Instructor, I understand the importance and absolute necessity of being relaxed, fluid and fast to strike .. to achieve maximum impact. The same physiological processes and bio kinetic movements (Physics) must occur in all striking sports! You can't muscle up so I understand what the Coach is trying to convey. The most difficult concept to teach in Martial Arts is that very principle. Think FAST not strong to be quick and powerful to the target.

The verbal cue(s) should more accurately reflect what you want. "Don't think swing hard, don't muscle up, instead think FAST! I want you to get the head of the bat on plane with the ball as "quickly" as possible........ every time you swing the bat!!!!!!!!!!

I want my hitter to use maximum controlled effort on every swing until it's instinctive. If he becomes used to selectively dial it down, then at some point the maximum achieveable levels become lower.

Ok ... now fire away at me!!!!

I think your right. Good intentions never hit a ball hard. :]


I think if was Epstein that says...

There is a HUGE difference between powerless effort and effortless power.

showme: that was a heckuva an article you attached. I'm home with a sick kid today or I'd never taken time to read it... good stuff.

Prime9,

I think we are all kinda saying the same thing (but perhaps with different accents.LOL).

I guess the real point is what do we want in the mind of the hitter in how he gets his best, controllable batspeed on each swing. I prefer them to think "fast" versus "hard"; some may use "quick".

Coming up with the verbal cue that clicks with the hitter is often difficult at young ages but does get easier as they get older. I think the 70%,80%,90% cues are often fall back cues coaches use when they see a hitter swinging out of his shoes and losing his swing mechanics; coach simply wants him to smooth things out and be in control. Are there better cues...probably. If the hitter understands the point of the cue is not about reducing batspeed but rather to smooth the swing out, it'll work out.

quote:

I think we are all kinda saying the same thing (but perhaps with different accents.LOL).

Abe ... you are right, of course. I think we do speak with the same "twang."

Just wanted to say... There are some very good posts on this subject.

Prime9,

I am a big believer in Martial Arts and how it relates to baseball. We hired a Karate Instructor to work with our guys when I coached in college. He didn't know anything at all about baseball and we knew nothing about Karate. If I were still coaching I'd be doing exactly the same thing.

Good stuff, thanks for the read. GED10DaD

This is rediculous. Anyone that plays baseball at a high level knows that you cant "tune" how fast you are going to swing.

Man i pulled my head off that one let me adjust my swing speed down 3.57564%. Thats retarded

see the ball hit it...

Just had the 3rd day of hitting camp. You could really tell the difference in my sons swings when he let up a bit. He hit 7 out of 20 swings over the 385 Left center field sign in soft toss.

You could really tell the difference on the swings. When he muscled up he hit it well. When he relaxed and let up a little bit he hit it out. It put on a heck of a lot more back spin. when he swung his hardest the balls were flat or with topspin. Not much distance.

I think he will continue trying it their way.

Andrew,
Re-read the posts. Most are referring to the hitters perceived effort level and how muscling up to create more batspeed is counterproductive. Effort with bad mechanics is wasted. No one is saying changing/"tuning" batspeed for individual pitches. And yes, a smart, good HS athlete/hitter most certainly can work out what effort level consistently produces his best batspeed, particularly if he has the tools available to measure batspeed. Golfers do this all the time; surely a baseball player is as athletic as most golfers.

If a hitter is consistently pulling his head off the ball, maybe trying to adjust/smooth his swing effort down 3.57564% would help out.

**** Poor choice of words using "retarded", even in HS. Heaven help you if you used that word on our HS baseball field...you would have 4 coaches ( your position coach is a Special Ed teacher) all over you and then several Varsity players ready to "discuss" your vocalbulary.

I am sorry for the poor choice of words. That would not "fly" on my field either. My parents had recently hidden my xbox live. I was in a bad mood.

I figured that is what you would see Doughnut. It has been exactly what I have seen in the past. Muscled up knucklers , top spin , hooked pitches , relaxed swing - balls that carry for days. Good luck.

Andrew,
Got your email; very well written. Just replied back to you.

If you have any questions about the Special Olympics (particularly with your love of weightlifting) certification for coaching let me know and I'll help you out. They are always looking for volunteers to help coach; the fact you have some expertise would be a big plus to the athletes in your area.

I think a point that may be getting lost in the discussion is that the "perception" of a harder swing, in fact produced slower bat speed." While the "perception" of a more fluid, relaxed swing appeared slower, actually increased bat speed!

Same in pitching, try to maximum effort it up there and velocity is slower. The best fast balls comes when you relax and and are quick and thru the target. That effort looks less, but is really MORE!

Does that make any sense? So, getting back to the advice. Does the Coach really want less effort or MORE PRODUCTIVE effort? If the latter, then does he tell the athlete to reduce is effort to 80% or does he more accurately say what it is he wants?

S. Abrams, i didnt receive an email. I would love to do that i think i would learn alot

I am in houston.