Smaller programs with competitive schedules

Along those same lines, www.warrennolan.com gives team RPI's and Strength of Schedule's. Pretty interesting stuff for the athlete trying to evaluate the school he is looking at. I know when my son and I were looking at schools, this website provided a great base of knowledge from which to start the sifting process.

quote:

tpm quote:
I don't feel that weather conditions play as big part in a programs success anymore as does scheduling.

I guess we will always agree to disagree on this topic. How can weather not be an issue? Northern teams are scheduling better teams but when they go down South they have yet to work on a diamond and that in itself is a disadvantage. Can you imagine what DK would think if the first time he threw to a batter outside was the first game of the year? Or if the first flyball an outfielder took was during the first game, Or the first time a batter dug his cleats into the box was his first game AB. Or running the bases in tennis shoes on a wood floor and then the first game you put on a new pair of spikes. Those teams play 3 games and then head back indoors until the next weekend and they do that til mid-march. You don't think there is an advantage for those teams that can do that for a month before the first game and continue it for the rest of the season. Imagine Clemson in a gym from Jan til Mid-March except for game days. And that does not include the travel to get to the "tropics" every week which means packing and leaving on Thurs pm and coming home late Sunday night for the first six weeks of the year. I'm trying very ard not to make this a pi$$ing match but road to Omaha for Northern teams and many mids includes extra baggage. Last year my sons team put on I think 10,000 miles before the conference games started. Mental fatigue can also factor into the equation. I give these mids a lot of credit for not only going south as the "dog" but also not close to being game ready.

Scheduling isn't making these teams better, better players are making them better.imho

And the northern schools don't have to play in the heat and humidity conditions that southern schools do.

Please...

rz,
I knew you would respond and try to make it a pi$$ing match with weather factor.

If you carefully read the first part of my post, it was about not always being able to go play where you want to. So what do you do, you try to do the next best thing, find a program where you will be happy and where the team gets to play good competition, whether you have to travel or not. That's what this post is about. The post is also about having an opportunity to play the game beyond HS, and with that comes a lot of adjustments and decisions for many.
I still am scratching my head about Oregon State, national champs, who fall into the travel dilemma you are speaking about. According to what you say, they should not have been in Omaha last year.

Would my son like what you have suggested, probably not, but because he is not in the situation is not the issue of the post I started. And I am tired of it being brought up about "how would DK like it". My post was not about him, or your son, or anyone else's but about others looking for opportunities to play for a coach who is willing to make adjustments so that his team can be prepared for their conference play. DO YOU GET THAT?

Good scheduling makes better programs, because it attracts better players who would want to have opportunities to play against tougher competition.

quote:

by tpm: I don't feel that weather conditions play as big part in a programs success anymore as does scheduling

gee, I'd have to agree with that .. while RZ makes a great emotional argument, the facts are a bit distorted -

"running the bases in tennis shoes on a wood floor"

my observations on typical mid - DI ... facilities of coldweather schools include:
a full-size artificial turf football field, a six-lane running track, observation towers for filming, batting cages, and various nets to divide the field into separate areas for pratice, and an adjoining state of the art weight-training




I know some about GT so I'll use it for comparison
average Atlanta temps preseason are mid 30s
average rain is 4"/month
no fieldhouse - practice is outside

average preseason temp in
Clemson SC - low 30s
Raleigh NC - hi 20s
Dallas TX - low 40s
New Orleans - mid 40s

tpm,

I agreed with everything you said except the weather statement, and all I did was try to explain to you what the practice conditions are up north. My reference to your son was because I needed to use an example of a player you know and would understand this thought on the idea. That was the first time I ever used David name in a post and it was not in a bad way what so ever so don't go there. If you feel a that a team that misses at least 2 months of outside practice is not adversely affected then so be it. All I'm saying is if those programs had the opportunity to practice outside those 2 extra months they would show a greater improvement than they do by playing a harder schedule. Yes the better schedule helps, but the weather puts them behind the 8-ball right off the bat. Weather is the reason there is such a difference in caliber.

Why do you think MLB has spring training down South, so they can golf on the off days? Because they get to work outdoors and that evens the playing field for all teams, everyone has the same condition to work on their games. What condition would the cards, cubs, w sox, tigers be in on opening day if their spring training were in those cities.

I know you are going to throw that OR State scenario out there, but at this point it is an exception to the rule and only time will tell if change is in the wind.

I don't understand why you are so mad at me when I try to explain myself. YOU made that one statement and I just think you are wrong. A pi$$ing match it is not, but if you continue to take that stand I will continue to argue with you. I don't bring it up, you do. I think we need a hug. Please think about the MLB example I gave as it is the same difference.

The Northern schools do not necessarily go south for the stronger competition, although it helps their RPI, but more for the opportunity to , as we say, "get out of the barn". In most cases the school has to win their conference to go to the NCAA's so the record in the warm climate doesn't truly impact them that much one way or the other.


Even the programs with "astroturf" fields right now will have problems with all the ice we have had in the past 10 days or so

I think the weather is off topic and hopefully everyone has made their final points on that one.

I think where my son goes to school is a good example for this topic. We looked for basically two things. A winning program and who do they play. When I checked their schedule and saw that they played the likes of Clemson, Georgia Tech, and North Carolina - year in and year out, it meant the EXACT same thing to us as if our son were attending one of those schools.

Most everything in life is how you perceive it. If you perceive you already got the best deal possible, it matters little what opportunites others have chosen.

CD

The second round of our 32 man Frozen Lake Match play golf tourney was called off tomorrow because we all lost our balls in the 14 inches of snow we got today. Drilled holes in the ice to hold the pins, snowblowed the "ice greens", plowed fairways, xmas trees and snowmen for hazards, 1 club, a tennis ball, and snowmobile beer carts. When the event goes coed I know what ringer from FL I'm hookin up with as a partner .

quote:

Originally posted by rz1:
CD

The second round of our 32 man Frozen Lake Match play golf tourney was called off tomorrow because we all lost our balls in the 14 inches of snow we got today. Drilled holes in the ice to hold the pins, snowblowed the "ice greens", plowed fairways, xmas trees and snowmen for hazards, 1 club, a tennis ball, and snowmobile beer carts. When the event goes coed I know what ringer from FL I'm hookin up with as a partner .

The solution is easy...
...play with blue (or orange) balls.

We use green tennis balls but they get buried in the fresh powder.

Don't mean to seem wishy washy but, I think nearly every post in this thread has some very good points.

Not sure if this has anything to do with this subject, but…

We actually ask HS players where they would like to play in college. This is what we have found over the past 15 years.

Nearly every top level player from the south or west wants to stay in the south or west.

Nearly every top level player from the north wants to go south or west.

Of course, south to a player from Michigan or Wisconsin might be Illinois or Kentucky.

It is amazing how many put down they want to attend a college in the SEC, ACC, Big 12, Pac10 or another of the top programs not in those conferences.

When we talk to players about leaving the north they nearly always mention that their reasons are as follows.

1 – Weather/climate
2 – Competition
3 - Highest level programs

Better academics is not mentioned very often. After all, there are many great academic schools in the north.

Some top players stay in the north for the following reasons.

1 – Better scholarship
2 – Desire to stay close to home
3 - High level program

There are more good players than there are spots at the top 40 type college programs. Not meant with any disrespect for the top programs, but recruiting at those schools is kind of like fishing in a barrel. There simply are more players who want to play at Arizona State, Texas, Stanford, Georgia Tech, etc. than there are players who have a strong desire to play at Iowa, Minnesota, or Wisconsin Milwaukee.

Just in the recent past, nearly all the top HS players in Iowa have signed with the following schools…. Stanford, LSU, Southern Cal, Baylor, Nebraska, Notre Dame, Georgia Tech, Wichita State, Duke, Oklahoma, etc. and some with in state schools. Once again it seems the reason for this is better weather or better competition/conferences and in some cases better facilities or scholarship money. Then there are a few who desire to stay close to home.

Sometimes kids find out the grass is not always greener, but the weather is always better down south for baseball during the college season. (Not many southern or western teams have games scheduled up here in Feb.)

Just getting outside in February is a great day and it doesn't happen very often. Some colleges do have great indoor facilities, though. Especially Minnesota (Metrodome)

Using arguably the top two Northern programs over the last several years… Nebraska plays 16 of their first 18, including the first 10 games, in the south. Notre Dame’s first 16 games are on the road in the south. From about Feb 15th to about March 19th Notre Dame is on the road down south. They can only attend class a couple days in that period of time. That has to be tough.

TPM, I agree that certain programs will tend to draw more scouts than others. Also if a player is successful in the top programs it can mean a lot. However, there are 30 MLB scouting departments who cover the entire country. There are as many scouts covering Illinois as there is covering Alabama. While there are more good college teams in the south, there are still 30 MLB teams and the bureau covering the north. It is not unusual to see 40-50 scouts at a college or high school game in the north. If there is an early round prospect playing college baseball… There will be a ton of scouts around. Because of that type talent being more common in the top conferences, the scouts in the south actually have more choices as to where to be on any given day. When a high draft prospect is playing in the north, it tends to draw more scouts. I’ve seen 40 or more scouts at an Iowa Junior College game.

That said, I think you are saying that it is an advantage for those who are playing against highly scouted programs. That is true… Something has to draw the scouts and if it’s not you or a player on your team, next best thing is playing against the top guys. Many good draft picks have been found that way and in most every part of the country including the north.

PG,
Your post futher strengthens the reason for my post.

Larger programs have only so many available spots to fill.

So looking for alternatives, schools with strong schedules should be a consideration, despite location, IMO.

Your last comment was what I was refering to. One does not have to attend southern or western school to get noticed.

One correction I should make regarding scouts. At this time of the year there are more scouts in the warm weather areas than any other time of the year. This is because many Northern Area Scouts are assigned down south (covering the northern colleges). And because there isn't anything much going on in the north, pretty much all the Scouting Directors and Crosscheckers are where the games are being played (south and/or west).

They are all dreading the start of the season in the north. I always get a kick out of watching the Latin American and southern players show up in Cedar Rapids Iowa in April to play ball after spring training in Arizona. I know it's mean, but what a hoot watching those kids experience a snow storm or wind chills in the teens or lower for a night game. All those players who have experienced this know what I'm talking about. They get used to it! They have to because there are a lot of Major League teams in the North. Wonder what they would think if they were here in Feb/Mar?

PG,
Last saturday, very cold weather conditions, wind chill, snow flurries, I didn't see lots of scouts.
I heard the next day about 30 of them were standing anywhere they could to stay warm. I hear they don't like the cold very much.
Also, a dad from the other team told me how great he thought it was for their kids to have scouts see them so early.
Your point is a good one about learning to play in the cold. What a shock must be for those warm weather guys to experience colder minor league climates.

Sully is the best one to watch, that Florida raised coach does NOT care for the cold!

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
And the northern schools don't have to play in the heat and humidity conditions that southern schools do.

Please...

We're not talking about July & August here. That dog won't hunt.

Lived in this state all of my life, and I've seen it over 100 in many a May, not to mention June.

quote:

Notre Dame’s first 16 games are on the road in the south. From about Feb 15th to about March 19th Notre Dame is on the road down south. They can only attend class a couple days in that period of time. That has to be tough.

My son is a freshman playing for Notre Dame. He called last night to let me know that the team bus finally returned to school. It was 2:30 AM Monday morning. He got to sleep around 4:00 AM. I don't know how they do it and maintain any sanity in the classroom or their social lives. They're off again this Thursday to Flordia. He's just hoping he can make it to spring break at the moment and keep his grades up. This is a tough job by any standard.

Another interesting read today Baseball America's Stike 3 regarding Midwestern teams traveling south and doing very well against warmer weather teams that have been playing for weeks.

TPM:

I agree with many of your points. If you cannot get an opportunity at a southern or western school, there are many fine northern programs that present many outstanding opportunities at the college level and beyond. The weather is tough, no doubt, but that does not preclude success. But the weather is the reason I strongly advocate the uniform start date and, in fact, would make it in mid March with the College World Series in July. That way there would be many more strong programs on similar ground, including those in the Big 10 which have fabulous resources in certain cases.

jemaz,
I am in complete agreement with the uniform start date.

However, I think going into July is rather tough, as in June I was in Omaha and it was deadly by 9am and summer rain and thunderstorms held things up.

I am hoping that someday the NCAA will figure it all out.

My son attends a "warm weather" school. They had about 10 inches of rain from mid January to mid February with daily highs in the 40's, until about 10 days ago, with no indoor facility. They are building a huge field house to practice in, because of bad weather.

TPM,

My son is signed with Texas State out of San Marcos TX. They play in the Southland Conference which is a very competitive D-1 league. But they are obviously not considered a Major Conf.

That being said, Coach Harrington has already beaten Rice, Oklahoma and ND. They have lost to Baylor and Texas. I think they have around 8 more games against Texas, Rice, Baylor and A&M.

You are correct in that the schedule they play was a big part of my sons decision.