Pg and Vance,
This topic has come up before and I suspect it will keep coming up. I must say my views have changed on this subject since I have read many opinions here, thought about it, and have come to the conclusion there simply is no right or wrong answer on the issue.
If you ask me what I would advise my son, I basically subcribe to Vance's view. IMHO, you may not be able to correct a bad baseball decision. For instance, turning down the million, you could wind up with a career threatning injury. You also could become exposed as a lesser prospect and never receive such an offer again. Of course, you could increase your value like Texiera but the risk is too great in my view. Regarding college, it can be just as successful a few years down the road as it has worked out for me in this manner.
I agree that there is no way to win this argument convincingly nor is there a one-size-fits-all solution to the problem.
Please allow an example….
We knew a very high profile high school prospect who told MLB Clubs up front he was most interested in attending school. He was an almost certain 1st rounder (1.5 to 2.5 million)
Because of his signability situation he was selected later on in that years draft and of course went to college. He now is playing professional baseball, but signed out of college for a fraction of what he could have received out of high school.
During this process (high school) his father talked to me often. His father was very much in favor of his son attending college rather than signing for a couple million dollars.
The father was very much involved. My standard advice was consistent with what was mentioned above. It was their decision… not mine!
The fathers reasoning…. He was/is a very wealthy man involved in land development. His son’s financial future was secure because he could some day take over the business. In that case, the education would prove much more valuable than the baseball career (money)… if that is what would end up happening.
Hell… I couldn’t relate to the wealth of the father, but what he was saying made some sense! Maybe in this case, the education was more important for security reasons than the signing bonus. And his son is playing professional baseball after four years of college.
Just one of many different situations.
We knew a very high profile high school prospect who told MLB Clubs up front he was most interested in attending school. He was an almost certain 1st rounder (1.5 to 2.5 million)
Because of his signability situation he was selected later on in that years draft and of course went to college. He now is playing professional baseball, but signed out of college for a fraction of what he could have received out of high school.
During this process (high school) his father talked to me often. His father was very much in favor of his son attending college rather than signing for a couple million dollars.
The father was very much involved. My standard advice was consistent with what was mentioned above. It was their decision… not mine!
The fathers reasoning…. He was/is a very wealthy man involved in land development. His son’s financial future was secure because he could some day take over the business. In that case, the education would prove much more valuable than the baseball career (money)… if that is what would end up happening.
Hell… I couldn’t relate to the wealth of the father, but what he was saying made some sense! Maybe in this case, the education was more important for security reasons than the signing bonus. And his son is playing professional baseball after four years of college.
Just one of many different situations.
Is this Dr. Rawnsley? If so hello. PG, I understand your point of view on this. However, if he IS going to take over the business one day. Then what does college have to do with it? Nothing, he would take it over no matter what anyway! I'm quiet sure if he were to make it to the show he would far exceed his Dad's earning potential and with a great severence package as well! Makes no sense what so ever to turn down a million or more dollars. You become a Millionaire right away with Chances that will set you up for life. There are millions of people in this world, working long hours with low pay, with no time for anything else, that have college degree's. Yet they never can get ahead. Pro sports can allow you to get ahead and stay ahead. Ask MATT WHITE!
No... This is not Dr. Rawnsley. Hello though.
I think the fathers point was that his son would be better prepared for life and running a large business with a college education rather than signing a baseball contract out of high school.
His son indirectly was/is going to be a millionaire (multi) with or without baseball.
In his mind and in his son's situation, the college education would prepare his son for the one certainty. Point is, the money was no issue in this case!
I understand this is a unique situation. That is the point... there are many reasons why people might not come up with the same decision in the same situation.
I don't disagree with your points. I just don't think they apply in every single case.
I think the fathers point was that his son would be better prepared for life and running a large business with a college education rather than signing a baseball contract out of high school.
His son indirectly was/is going to be a millionaire (multi) with or without baseball.
In his mind and in his son's situation, the college education would prepare his son for the one certainty. Point is, the money was no issue in this case!
I understand this is a unique situation. That is the point... there are many reasons why people might not come up with the same decision in the same situation.
I don't disagree with your points. I just don't think they apply in every single case.
Vance
With a formal business education his chances of being successful increase. If that were not true Columbia MBA grads would not command starting compensation packages averaging $145,000 annually.
Firms like Morgan Stanley would just go hire high school kids to plot their investment banking strategies, and pocket the change.
And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
The rules don't apply all the time. MOST people will earn more with a degree. Are there Ivy leaguers that are bums in the street. Yes, but not because they have a degree.
The kid had a back-up plan. One that made him a multi-millionaire when he was done with baseball, not if he finished baseball. Odds are he'll be done by 30 and back in business with his dad.
quote:Then what does college have to do with it? Nothing, he would take it over no matter what anyway!
With a formal business education his chances of being successful increase. If that were not true Columbia MBA grads would not command starting compensation packages averaging $145,000 annually.
Firms like Morgan Stanley would just go hire high school kids to plot their investment banking strategies, and pocket the change.
And I don't see that happening anytime soon.
The rules don't apply all the time. MOST people will earn more with a degree. Are there Ivy leaguers that are bums in the street. Yes, but not because they have a degree.
The kid had a back-up plan. One that made him a multi-millionaire when he was done with baseball, not if he finished baseball. Odds are he'll be done by 30 and back in business with his dad.
quote:Ask MATT WHITE!
Vance, IMO, Matt White is the exception, even within the exception. Got very lucky on the money side, not so on the baseball.
Perhaps a more mainstream story.
We were sitting with the parents of a minor leaguer who signed out of high school. Contract does allow for him to return to college and have a good portion of that paid for through the tuition program. Appears after completing his 4th year in the minors that getting beyond AA is unlikely. Parents are both insistent he return to college and get his degree. The problem is he has now met a girl and intends to get married during the off season and has no interest in returning to college. His signing bonus was not in the millions, has mostly been spent and the tuition value may likely never be used. I think this is the more usual scenario, not Matt White.
And maybe he will take up a trade. College does not guarantee success.
The only thing that assures success be it college or pro ball is the individuals drive and perservernace--- the "drive" is the key and the difference just as it has been for the player thru his HS days
quote:Originally posted by njbb:
And maybe he will take up a trade. College does not guarantee success.
Agree completely njbb. There aren't guarantees whichever road/fork is taken and the road, whichever path is taken is full of bumps and potholes. The point I was making is the Matt White example, to me, just doesn't fit for 99.9% of the draftees. At some point, whether they sign or go to college, most all of them will confront the ramifications of that choice. Being a senior sign from college creates issues of its own in pursuing professional baseball as a path. Anticipating/planning either path as the "guaranteed" way to success, financial or otherwise might work for a very small percentage. The rest will end up making real world decisions, pretty much like the rest of us.
In the example above the father was very involved, but I wonder what the kid wanted to do. The son could spend his life regreting a decision he made in order to follow his father's dream instead of his own.
If a kid turns down a 1st round offer to attend college, HE needs to clearly understand and be very comfortable with the fact that the same baseball opportunity might not be there again.
If a kid turns down a 1st round offer to attend college, HE needs to clearly understand and be very comfortable with the fact that the same baseball opportunity might not be there again.
Liberty,
That is a very good point. We always thought if it was left up to the kid, he would of signed right out of high school.
We should remember that the same kid will now have a "prestegious" degree and will be in Double A next year. He has a good chance of making it to the Big Leagues.
In this case, where money was not the biggest concern could we say.... Maybe...
Father Knows Best????
That is a very good point. We always thought if it was left up to the kid, he would of signed right out of high school.
We should remember that the same kid will now have a "prestegious" degree and will be in Double A next year. He has a good chance of making it to the Big Leagues.
In this case, where money was not the biggest concern could we say.... Maybe...
Father Knows Best????
If it were up to my son, he would go pro. His chances of being drafted are slim at best out of HS, so it's only an exercise of speculation for us.
But, he has three great friends. One was drafted by the NYY a couple of years ago in the 6th round or so. He is absolutely happy with his decision. He also has a friend that will be drafted high next year, and will probably be going pro.
But, he has another friend that is committed to a D1, and is looking forward to getting his degree.
All three kids are excellent ballplayers, but they will all make different decisions. The great thing, is all three of them have OPTIONS. Something that a lot of our kids don't have.
Even though my kid is a top notch student and will probably get more offers for achedemic money than for baseball money, if he were drafted, I would probably back his decision. Why? Because it's HIS life. HIS dream. HIS decision.
I have made a deal with all my kids, if you want to go to college, I will do everything in my power to pay for it. It doesn't matter if you are 40 years old. If you get good grades, I will continue to pay for your schooling. If you screw off, you pay.
My wife got her degree when she was 32. It can be done later in life, and actually, she excelled because she brought real world experiences to class.
Some kids aren't ready for a university when they are 18 years old.
But, he has three great friends. One was drafted by the NYY a couple of years ago in the 6th round or so. He is absolutely happy with his decision. He also has a friend that will be drafted high next year, and will probably be going pro.
But, he has another friend that is committed to a D1, and is looking forward to getting his degree.
All three kids are excellent ballplayers, but they will all make different decisions. The great thing, is all three of them have OPTIONS. Something that a lot of our kids don't have.
Even though my kid is a top notch student and will probably get more offers for achedemic money than for baseball money, if he were drafted, I would probably back his decision. Why? Because it's HIS life. HIS dream. HIS decision.
I have made a deal with all my kids, if you want to go to college, I will do everything in my power to pay for it. It doesn't matter if you are 40 years old. If you get good grades, I will continue to pay for your schooling. If you screw off, you pay.
My wife got her degree when she was 32. It can be done later in life, and actually, she excelled because she brought real world experiences to class.
Some kids aren't ready for a university when they are 18 years old.
I'm not sure what the minor league salary scale and benefits are but I'm sure they are nowhere near what has been quoted in an earlier post, if I remember correctly, they only play a few months a year and the rest of the year they are not on the team’s payroll. (maybe someone can enlighten us on the minor leaguer’s life)
To me you take several other items into consideration:
How long before you’d expect before you reach the “show”?
Are you ready for the minor league life? Life style and maturity?
Can you be disciplined enough to put away enough money to support you if you quit and go back to school?
If you are good enough to make it through the minor league system, and you continue working on your game, shouldn’t you be worth similar money in three years?
What do you want to do after you ball career if you are not one of the guys who make the millions?
To me you take several other items into consideration:
How long before you’d expect before you reach the “show”?
Are you ready for the minor league life? Life style and maturity?
Can you be disciplined enough to put away enough money to support you if you quit and go back to school?
If you are good enough to make it through the minor league system, and you continue working on your game, shouldn’t you be worth similar money in three years?
What do you want to do after you ball career if you are not one of the guys who make the millions?
Obrady asks an interesting question "What do you want to do after your ball career if you are not one of hte guys who make the millions?"
Just two days ago, I was on the phone with a friend who is a former MLB player that was calling to tell me he was looking for something new for a way to earn a living. We talked about a few different things that he might do, but he said something I haven't forgotten or figured our how to respond to: "What is a 40-something ex-ballplayer going to do for a real world job when all he's ever done is play baseball?"
This guy has never done anything except play ball or do other jobs around the game. Now, he's suddenly faced with the prospect of having to find employment outside the game, and realizes that he may not have the skills or education necessary to do anything that will allow him to earn much of a living, and will probably require him to work hours that he's never known before.
I think this scenario is way more common than many wish to believe. What do you think?
Just two days ago, I was on the phone with a friend who is a former MLB player that was calling to tell me he was looking for something new for a way to earn a living. We talked about a few different things that he might do, but he said something I haven't forgotten or figured our how to respond to: "What is a 40-something ex-ballplayer going to do for a real world job when all he's ever done is play baseball?"
This guy has never done anything except play ball or do other jobs around the game. Now, he's suddenly faced with the prospect of having to find employment outside the game, and realizes that he may not have the skills or education necessary to do anything that will allow him to earn much of a living, and will probably require him to work hours that he's never known before.
I think this scenario is way more common than many wish to believe. What do you think?
06catcherdad,
If your 40-something friend has been involved in baseball(MLB) up to this age, he should not have to worry about future jobs if he has been prudent about investing his $... even if he has always been at the lower end of the MLB pay scale.
If he has hung on to baseball for this same period of time at the minor league level(where the pay is nowhere near as good), he has had his head seriously buried in the sand.
Every player needs to stay realistic in their views about what baseball will provide for them and about what they can do once baseball is over.
Welcome back to the real world- he was able to delay it for about 20-some years longer than most of us were able to... time to get a job!
OPP
If your 40-something friend has been involved in baseball(MLB) up to this age, he should not have to worry about future jobs if he has been prudent about investing his $... even if he has always been at the lower end of the MLB pay scale.
If he has hung on to baseball for this same period of time at the minor league level(where the pay is nowhere near as good), he has had his head seriously buried in the sand.
Every player needs to stay realistic in their views about what baseball will provide for them and about what they can do once baseball is over.
Welcome back to the real world- he was able to delay it for about 20-some years longer than most of us were able to... time to get a job!
OPP
I know lots of women who at 40 something went back to school and started new careers. 
06catcherdad - I believe it is more common than folks want to believe too. I know a few ex-big leaguers too...one is doing great (he made a lot of money in the game), one is doing fine (real estate agent...didn't make a lot of money) and one is struggling (had a couple of short stints in the big leagues).
I think when you're young, its sometimes hard to imagine that it won't last forever and to plan for that properly.
I think when you're young, its sometimes hard to imagine that it won't last forever and to plan for that properly.
OPP, I think it's about more than just the money. I don't know this guy well enough to really know how well off he is. He did play at the big league level for more than a few years. Heck, he even has a ring from one magical year. I think his dilemna is more from the standpoint of what the heck does a guy do when he's done with baseball?
Even if he's fine financially, when you're only in your 40's, its kinda hard to just sit back and play full time house husband, I would think. I think its great for the guys who are able to get jobs in the game, either coaching or scouting; but that sure doesn't take care of the number of players who leave the game and don't have the skills to have multiple career options, or the money to do nothing if they so choose.
The region I live in has produced a large number of professional players, many major leaguers. Of those players, most were taken either out of high school, or more commonly, out of Jr. College. I wonder how many of them have real life career skills. I do remember an acquiantance, back in the 80's, that was on a MLB 40 man roster. This guy drove a milk delivery truck in the off-season to make ends meet. Nothing wrong with being a milk man at all, but it was kind of a surprised to see a guy doing this, who played major league ball at the same time.
Even if he's fine financially, when you're only in your 40's, its kinda hard to just sit back and play full time house husband, I would think. I think its great for the guys who are able to get jobs in the game, either coaching or scouting; but that sure doesn't take care of the number of players who leave the game and don't have the skills to have multiple career options, or the money to do nothing if they so choose.
The region I live in has produced a large number of professional players, many major leaguers. Of those players, most were taken either out of high school, or more commonly, out of Jr. College. I wonder how many of them have real life career skills. I do remember an acquiantance, back in the 80's, that was on a MLB 40 man roster. This guy drove a milk delivery truck in the off-season to make ends meet. Nothing wrong with being a milk man at all, but it was kind of a surprised to see a guy doing this, who played major league ball at the same time.
quote:We knew a very high profile high school prospect who told MLB Clubs up front he was most interested in attending school. He was an almost certain 1st rounder (1.5 to 2.5 million)
Because of his signability situation he was selected later on in that years draft and of course went to college. He now is playing professional baseball, but signed out of college for a fraction of what he could have received out of high school.
Hope the father up in Going Pro forum sees this post by PG. Especially if the prospect could fall in this category.
Shep's theory on this situation: Get the dough while the gettins good
My son is a senior this year. He told me that if he has the opportunity that he will sign no matter what round. He has signed with a college, and he knows I support what ever decision he makes.
quote:He told me that if he has the opportunity that he will sign no matter what round.
Just make sure they know he's on the way and not on their "draft and follow" list. Otherwise he could turn pro and have no where to play.
Dad04
you have a PM
you have a PM
Dad04,
I don't understand how a scout signs a player to a pro contract and they don't let him play? I thought a draft and follow is just that, drafted and followed while he attends college OR you sign and go play pro ball.
I don't understand how a scout signs a player to a pro contract and they don't let him play? I thought a draft and follow is just that, drafted and followed while he attends college OR you sign and go play pro ball.
njbb-maybe someone with more experience can explain this better. But the way I understand it is that the kid is drafted but not signed...sometimes or most times (especially when drafted very late) the club is asking you attend a JC to "follow" your progress. I know that for us, prior to the draft, scouts discussed all kinds of scenarios including, "we would want you to sign right away, we want to have a look at you over the summer, or we want you to play a year of JC and we'll follow you".
In the scenario dad04 talks about it sounds like the scout that drafted that kid did not communicate very well or the kid wasn’t listening very well. Either way, a very sad story.
In the scenario dad04 talks about it sounds like the scout that drafted that kid did not communicate very well or the kid wasn’t listening very well. Either way, a very sad story.
From what I understand, when you are a draft and follow, the scout tells you the organizaton does not want you to sign at this time. They have to offer you the contract. You can sign it and play ball against the advice of the organization.
Adam Loewen turned down 2.7 million. Went to Chipola for 1 year and signed a 4 yr deal for 3.2M + 4M. That is a risky move and he is still in the minors after 3 years.
Many players get drafted, play Juco as DF then go onto a 4 year school.
How can you sign and be eligible for NCAA?
I was never under the impression a DF signs anything.
How can you sign and be eligible for NCAA?
I was never under the impression a DF signs anything.
some other thoughts on the Havens situation...he committed to USC as a high school sophomore. Two of his friends (Justin Smoak and Mike Cisco) also signed to come to USC. Ray Tanner runs a class program and I can only remember 1 big name high school prospect turning down an scholarship at USC to take the money (Chad Billingsley? early round pick of the Dodgers a few years ago who is due to make it to the Bigs sometime soon). as I understand it Justin Smoak also turned down first or second round money to come to USC. Drew Meyer came from the same high school as Havens, as I understand also turned down big money out of high school turned around became the 13th overall pick in the draft his junior year...and just recently went 2-5 in his first major league game the other night. Plus Coach Tanner has a history of making short stops into All-American, high draft picks, and major leaguers. Brian Roberts, Adam Everett, and now Drem Meyer were 3 of the last 4 (maybe 5) shortstops to start for USC and are all in the major leagues now, and the 4th I believe saw a few games with the Twins in Spring training. If Havens continues his solid play at short (I only remember him making one error this season and that came in his first game) and continues hitting the ball hard, he will make his money, plus have a college education.
quote:Originally posted by Shepster:quote:We knew a very high profile high school prospect who told MLB Clubs up front he was most interested in attending school. He was an almost certain 1st rounder (1.5 to 2.5 million)
Because of his signability situation he was selected later on in that years draft and of course went to college. He now is playing professional baseball, but signed out of college for a fraction of what he could have received out of high school.
Hope the father up in Going Pro forum sees this post by PG. Especially if the prospect could fall in this category.
Shep's theory on this situation: Get the dough while the gettins good
Had to go back and find it
Here ya go. Peace, Shep
Shep, I believe in your Statement.
If said player's are in that Catagory. 1st,2nd round pick's.
If said Player's are Phisically, Mentally ready for that Jump.
In son's case, neather one of this is true.
Although, I believe he could compete.
Is the Organization going to give them the time to Mature.
5, 6, 7Yrs. down the road.
That would be my biggest concern with signing out of HS. EH
If said player's are in that Catagory. 1st,2nd round pick's.
If said Player's are Phisically, Mentally ready for that Jump.
In son's case, neather one of this is true.
Although, I believe he could compete.
Is the Organization going to give them the time to Mature.
5, 6, 7Yrs. down the road.
That would be my biggest concern with signing out of HS. EH
Maybe that kid's family is really rich and he doesnt need the money? He could then afford to go to college and play 3 years???
food for thought right there...
food for thought right there...
KAYMART
Some times it has nothing to do with money
Some times it has nothing to do with money
Kaymart4
Really How many Rich baseball player's are out there??
In are case, It's how much sacrifice are we willing to make. EH
quote:Maybe that kid's family is really rich and he doesnt need the money? He could then afford to go to college and play 3 years???
Really How many Rich baseball player's are out there??
In are case, It's how much sacrifice are we willing to make. EH
quote:Maybe that kid's family is really rich and he doesnt need the money? He could then afford to go to college and play 3 years???
I can give you several examples from right there in Marietta that played on Coach Beaver's East Cobb Yankees who opted to College and are having surgery, need to have surgery or no longer as marketable as high level prospects by choosing college first and using those years in college in lieu of pros. With this in mind, let me pose this question: Do you think "already having money" will give those prospects the choice now? peace, Shep
Shep, You should know better then that.
It would not matter if player was in college are pro ball,
If the injury bug bite's you.
That's the nature of the game.
Would it not be a good thing to have a college degree to fall back on.
Now I realize that your only Talking about the big Bonus Baby's.
And it would be hard to pass that much money up,
If baseball was your first choice in life.
If player was also an academic all american, and wanted to be a doctor/lawyer/ect. Said player would want to get a jump on there Education, before they jump into baseball. EH
It would not matter if player was in college are pro ball,
If the injury bug bite's you.
That's the nature of the game.
Would it not be a good thing to have a college degree to fall back on.
Now I realize that your only Talking about the big Bonus Baby's.
And it would be hard to pass that much money up,
If baseball was your first choice in life.
If player was also an academic all american, and wanted to be a doctor/lawyer/ect. Said player would want to get a jump on there Education, before they jump into baseball. EH
EH....there is a big difference, and I am ashamed of you EH for not seeing. If you sign the pro contract and go play and get hurt its still money in the bank. Not the case if you go to college and get hurt!
Best of both worlds--- playing college baseball and getting an education--not a bad way to go
TR HIT, true. But so is having money in the bank and chasing a childhood dream of playing in the big leagues!
Not a thing wrong with either! Just tell us before the draft you wanta go to school and we will move on to a player that does wanta chase that dream.
Not a thing wrong with either! Just tell us before the draft you wanta go to school and we will move on to a player that does wanta chase that dream.
I look at it this way--- you make you living convincing players to sign--or you dont eat
I dont-- I want kids to have choices for their future
I am not sure either that you ever even develop a relationship with a kid--we do
I dont-- I want kids to have choices for their future
I am not sure either that you ever even develop a relationship with a kid--we do
TR HIT SAID
and you wonder why I call you CLUELESS!
TR HIT, I get paid, like ALL SCOUTS, with a salary. We don't get paid on convincing kids to sign. We get paid to identify the best players.
TR HIT SAID
Well, I don't know if you get paid, and I don't care! But you do deal with the college recruiting situation. So maybe you get paid to sale your company's services. BUT WHO CARES!
TR HIT SAID
It really is telling just how CLUELESS you really are. Most scouts I know, STILL talk to their players by phone that they have signed. Allot will even go see them in their 1st big league game. Speaking for me only. I have players I didn't even sign that some other club signed that call me almost on a weekly bases. I have Dads and Moms who call as well. As a matter of fact I just enjoyed dinner at the home of one of them a few days ago. I'll guarantee a scouts relationship with a player and his parents is far more in depth than yours.
quote:I look at it this way--- you make you living convincing players to sign--or you dont eat
and you wonder why I call you CLUELESS!
TR HIT, I get paid, like ALL SCOUTS, with a salary. We don't get paid on convincing kids to sign. We get paid to identify the best players.
TR HIT SAID
quote:I dont-- I want kids to have choices for their future
Well, I don't know if you get paid, and I don't care! But you do deal with the college recruiting situation. So maybe you get paid to sale your company's services. BUT WHO CARES!
TR HIT SAID
quote:I am not sure either that you ever even develop a relationship with a kid
It really is telling just how CLUELESS you really are. Most scouts I know, STILL talk to their players by phone that they have signed. Allot will even go see them in their 1st big league game. Speaking for me only. I have players I didn't even sign that some other club signed that call me almost on a weekly bases. I have Dads and Moms who call as well. As a matter of fact I just enjoyed dinner at the home of one of them a few days ago. I'll guarantee a scouts relationship with a player and his parents is far more in depth than yours.
