IMO if Mark Mcgwire doesnt get in Sosa has no business being inducted either....After all Sosa is a proven cheat and Mcgwire is allegedly...Why the soft spot for Sammy and not Mcgwire (recent polls). Sorry for rambling....
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Good points deemax. Sosa has gotten a pass through all of this, until now maybe? I guess we'll see.
Even 600 "hof" are a lot.
Some day the roids era will be reconized as part of one of baseball mistakes, and not precisally players mistakes. The mistake belong to the commissioner and owners, that knowing what was happenning, they let it pass for the amount of money they were producing. Why players were the ones that have to confess first. Why the commissioner didn't took the responsability and confess the baseball guiltness. No!..the best was sacrified a couple of players in order to save the system. Come on!...do you know how many players used roids for the last 15 years?...do you know that more pitchers have used them than hitters?...
I know that this is an speculation issue and everybody will fire against who he hates more, but there is only one guilty: BASEBALL'S MONEY.
Some day the roids era will be reconized as part of one of baseball mistakes, and not precisally players mistakes. The mistake belong to the commissioner and owners, that knowing what was happenning, they let it pass for the amount of money they were producing. Why players were the ones that have to confess first. Why the commissioner didn't took the responsability and confess the baseball guiltness. No!..the best was sacrified a couple of players in order to save the system. Come on!...do you know how many players used roids for the last 15 years?...do you know that more pitchers have used them than hitters?...
I know that this is an speculation issue and everybody will fire against who he hates more, but there is only one guilty: BASEBALL'S MONEY.
quote:Originally posted by deemax:
IMO if Mark Mcgwire doesnt get in Sosa has no business being inducted either....After all Sosa is a proven cheat and Mcgwire is allegedly...Why the soft spot for Sammy and not Mcgwire (recent polls). Sorry for rambling....
HYPOCRITES! When Mark McGuire was being raked across the coals for pleading the Fifth Amendment any and all jumped on that bandwagon. Now, according to one poll, Sammy gets a 67% national approval rate. Guess everyone forgot that during the Congressional Hearings, he FORGOT TO SPEAK ENGLISH.
Racab, I'll agree with you in that the steroid issue is a baseball problem and all of MLB is probably at fault.
We must remember Sosa has been caught cheating.. something about the cork come to mind? He claims it was an accident... here let me solve the "accident": Don't have a corked bat in the first place!
****Posted at nearly the same time as CoachB.. Coach, I must agree with you. Now, I'm not a big fan of Big Mac after the Congressional hearings. Sosa and Big Mac are very similar. They should both receive the same fate. Ahh.. but herein lies the problem with that: Big Mac is Caucasin while Sosa is Latino therefore he shall receive special treatment.
We must remember Sosa has been caught cheating.. something about the cork come to mind? He claims it was an accident... here let me solve the "accident": Don't have a corked bat in the first place!
****Posted at nearly the same time as CoachB.. Coach, I must agree with you. Now, I'm not a big fan of Big Mac after the Congressional hearings. Sosa and Big Mac are very similar. They should both receive the same fate. Ahh.. but herein lies the problem with that: Big Mac is Caucasin while Sosa is Latino therefore he shall receive special treatment.
Who was Baseball competeing with for entertainment $$.
I blame Big time WWE/WWF Wrestling.
All those super heroes of Pumped up roided out bodys on TV was taking away $$ from real sport's like baseball.
So to compete they pumped up also, What a shame.
The Game will survive on it's own merit.
Do they deserve the HOF?
Eventually!!
EH
I blame Big time WWE/WWF Wrestling.
All those super heroes of Pumped up roided out bodys on TV was taking away $$ from real sport's like baseball.
So to compete they pumped up also, What a shame.
The Game will survive on it's own merit.
Do they deserve the HOF?
Eventually!!
EH
Buldog, I don't think Palmeiro had an special treatment beeing Latino. Since when latinos players have special treatment?
quote:Big Mac is Caucasin while Sosa is Latino therefore he shall receive special treatment.
Not sure what you're really trying say here Bulldog, but I have to disagree on that point.
The reason that Sosa has been given a pass up to this point is that he wasn't doing anything to draw attention. IOW, he wasn't on the HOF ballot, and he wasn't threatening to break perhaps the most hallowed of all modern day records.
That seems to have changed within the past 24 hours, as Sosa has re-emerged from the shadows of McGuire and Bonds with #600. The very fact that we're discussing this now and not last week is proof enough of that.
I think Racab makes some very strong points about the culpability of the owners and the Comish. Probably right about the pitchers too. Just how many may really shock the baseball world. But until it all comes out and many more fan favorites are exposed, the hatred will continue to be focused on a few great hitters of the steroid era. Sosa won't escape that.
I would automatically subtract 200 homers from his total--in my mind--when voting. A 1/3 of the total. Thus, he has 400 homers. Get another 100 and we'll talk, Sammy. I'd use the same equation with Bonds. 750 - 1/3(750)= 500.
Hmm, 500 and he's a meathead. Close call.
Hmm, 500 and he's a meathead. Close call.
This is all such sanctimonius bull****.
Everybody knew about it, it wasnt illegal for most of the time the players used it, being non regulated and non tested. The players are not the culpable ones; if anything they were/are victimized by the moneymen. Baseball used them. Now it wants to blame them instead of themselves as outside fingers are pointing in. Get real. Just another example of exploitation of kids and young men and men that want to live the dream. No different from HS and college and minor league and major league and coaches that ride the hot arm until its gone.
FFS. Draw the line in the sand NOW! As in "as of now the following substances are illegal. Testing of all players will be done on a weekly basis. The coaches and managers of any player found to be testing positive wull be banned from BB for life, as will the player. Any team with 3 or more positive tests will have their franchise suspended until such time as ownership and management can be replaced. This list is subject to update weekly".
No further discussion of any sbstances that may have been usd prior to this list and testing.
All Done, no more problem, no shifting of blame, level playing field. Get on with it or shut up about it.
Everybody knew about it, it wasnt illegal for most of the time the players used it, being non regulated and non tested. The players are not the culpable ones; if anything they were/are victimized by the moneymen. Baseball used them. Now it wants to blame them instead of themselves as outside fingers are pointing in. Get real. Just another example of exploitation of kids and young men and men that want to live the dream. No different from HS and college and minor league and major league and coaches that ride the hot arm until its gone.
FFS. Draw the line in the sand NOW! As in "as of now the following substances are illegal. Testing of all players will be done on a weekly basis. The coaches and managers of any player found to be testing positive wull be banned from BB for life, as will the player. Any team with 3 or more positive tests will have their franchise suspended until such time as ownership and management can be replaced. This list is subject to update weekly".
No further discussion of any sbstances that may have been usd prior to this list and testing.
All Done, no more problem, no shifting of blame, level playing field. Get on with it or shut up about it.
Giambis the only one that says let's get this over with.
Justme
Laydown the law,
And move on.
Sounds good to me.
EH
Justme
Laydown the law,
And move on.
Sounds good to me.
EH
Maybe for all of these guys, put them in a special wing of the HOF, and add parenthetically how many of their home runs were hit on regular, and how many were hit on high test:
Example:
Sosa, Sammy 600 Home Runs*
(*200 regular, 400 High test)
This Wing of the Hall is sponsored by CVS Pharamacy.
Example:
Sosa, Sammy 600 Home Runs*
(*200 regular, 400 High test)
This Wing of the Hall is sponsored by CVS Pharamacy.
Or how about putting up a building like this at Cooperstown?
For Basket Cases...sometimes being in the MLB is no picnic!
For Basket Cases...sometimes being in the MLB is no picnic!
Do you guys recall the condition of MLB prior to the steroids era? hmmmmmm
That's why the owners looked the other way. Can you blame them?
Can you blame the players for legally taking a substance that could add millions to their contract?
The blame game is being played daily and it's making my head hurt.
The owners and players got what they wanted and left the fans holding the bag. For now we have to debate the issue until our heads hurt. The records, the HOF etc.. it makes me head mushy. And to add to all the steriod clutter THE RACE ISSUE GETS THROWN IN jeeeezzzzzzz. And the media eats it up.
That's why the owners looked the other way. Can you blame them?
Can you blame the players for legally taking a substance that could add millions to their contract?
The blame game is being played daily and it's making my head hurt.
The owners and players got what they wanted and left the fans holding the bag. For now we have to debate the issue until our heads hurt. The records, the HOF etc.. it makes me head mushy. And to add to all the steriod clutter THE RACE ISSUE GETS THROWN IN jeeeezzzzzzz. And the media eats it up.
This may sound silly but how can any of us say Sosa hit 400 of the 600 before the steriod era---how does anyone know
HEard a funny thing said about AROD today by Buster Olney---he mentioned that AROD'S body has changed in recent years but nobody is claiming he "uses"---fact is all our bodies change as we mature , some for the better and some for the worse.
Also mentioned was the fact that more pitchers than position players are using
HEard a funny thing said about AROD today by Buster Olney---he mentioned that AROD'S body has changed in recent years but nobody is claiming he "uses"---fact is all our bodies change as we mature , some for the better and some for the worse.
Also mentioned was the fact that more pitchers than position players are using
He doesn't get my vote because he stunk as a player, regardless of the roids or the homers. Sosa never won a thing. He was a below average hitter, fielder and teammate. If they had a place in the hall of fame for the meaningless homerun, it would be named Sosa place. This fascination with a number and not the player behind the number is offensive. McGwire and Sosa both were one dimensional and should have been playing on beer league softball teams. IT IS TIME TO GET TOGETHER AND KEEP THE ONE TOOL PLAYERS OUT OF THE HALL OF FAME.
Sosa is in his 18th year. He has 2361 hits and counting. Life time BA is .273 his best year he hit .328 with 64 HRs and 160 RBI. He has 1628 RBI in his career and counting in addition to the 600 HRs. He hit over 60 HRs in three different seasons. He nmade the all star team 7 times. He led the league in games played, total bases and runs scored 3 times. He also has 234 stolen bases.
I’ve never been a big Sammy fan, but he was not a one tool player, in fact, he could run, hit, hit for power, and he had a plus arm. Depending on how you grade his fielding he was a 4 or 5 tool player! He is not the sweet guy that people see on the tube and it is true that some teammates didn’t care for him and he did get awful big and strong in a short period of time. But you surely must be joking about him belonging in Beer League Softball.
I’ve never been a big Sammy fan, but he was not a one tool player, in fact, he could run, hit, hit for power, and he had a plus arm. Depending on how you grade his fielding he was a 4 or 5 tool player! He is not the sweet guy that people see on the tube and it is true that some teammates didn’t care for him and he did get awful big and strong in a short period of time. But you surely must be joking about him belonging in Beer League Softball.
Yes, I can blame the owners for looking the other way, and the commish. The big reason MLB was 'in trouble' this time (which it has been repeatedly over the years, from the 19th C days of the 'ruffians', through the Black Sox, Flood's suit, pitcher domination, recreational drugs in the '80's....) was the '94 strike.
And nobody was taking anything "legally". Steroids are a Controlled Substance, taking such drugs without a valid prescription was at the time and still is against Federal Law.
Home Run Hitters and Pitchers do get the Big Bucks, so there was plently of motivation. I'm Old School (and, indeed, old). I don't much care for the dependence on the hr with what it's done to the game, and look forward to speed and small ball coming back into the game. And all the steroids have yet to produce another pitcher good enough to force the mound height to be adjusted.
And nobody was taking anything "legally". Steroids are a Controlled Substance, taking such drugs without a valid prescription was at the time and still is against Federal Law.
Home Run Hitters and Pitchers do get the Big Bucks, so there was plently of motivation. I'm Old School (and, indeed, old). I don't much care for the dependence on the hr with what it's done to the game, and look forward to speed and small ball coming back into the game. And all the steroids have yet to produce another pitcher good enough to force the mound height to be adjusted.
Who opened this big ole can a worms anyway? oh my head!
As the manager of the Rangers said the other day......there aren't that many guys that hit 600 HR's in batting practice during their major league career, let alone in games.
Of course he belongs in the Hall.
Of course he belongs in the Hall.