Spin Rate - Is it really that big of a deal?

In the D'Oh department these factors only matter at the elite level of baseball. The danger is that some Dad of a 13 YO little Johnny are going to try to get a 110 lb kid try to increase his launch angle when he could not hit it out of a full size park even with perfect contact. At the elite level the science now is irrefutable, high speed cameras are proving this. 

Until a pitcher reaches the highest levels, there are plenty of other things to perfect before worrying about spin rate.  With that said, when competing at the highest level you want every advantage.  High spin on a 4 seam fastball produces ride.  Ride is the Magnus effect counteracting the force of gravity to make the ball drop less on it's way to the plate.  Notice the term is "ride" not "rise", the ball does not go up although hitters sometime perceive that as their brain is auto calculating the normal drop they are accustomed to seeing. 

Hitters rely on their brain to calculate where the ball is going to be in space at bat contact based on where the ball is when it's 30 feet in front of the plate.  Hitters do not see contact, keep your eye on the ball all the way to contact is a myth.  The goal for a pitcher is to be different from the average of the other pitchers that batter has seen.  If a pitcher throws around the league average velocity of 92 mph the hitter's brain sees that pitch 30 feet away and claculates when and where (on plane and on time) to swing the bat to make contact.  If that average velo fastball has a spin rate up well above the average of all of those other 92 mph fastballs it will cross the plate with an inch or two more ride than the average pitcher.  An inch or two above the plane calculated by the hitter is a swing and miss or a pop up.

Changing plane is the new changing speeds.  It's new to the masses with the availability of technology to study and practice it with real time feedback.  It's not new to some of the best pitchers from past.  I have seen old video of a Nolan Ryan interview where he talks about adding ride to his fastball.

ETA: Here is the Ryan clip where he talks about "tight spin" making his fastball drop less than the average fastball.

https://youtu.be/D101xq4N1bE

Spin Rate (and axis) is basically what used to be called movement or break with breaking pitches, just that it can be quantified.

I certainly think that technology and metrics matter to the extent that they help explain and potentially enhance player performance, and help with player evaluation.  This link is to one of the many articles about how the Astros apply technology to real world problems....finding pitchers who are undervalued because they aren't maximizing their best pitches (and minimizing their weaknesses).  

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/08...hez-justin-verlander

Spin rate is not fake news. I asked two mechanical engineers with college baseball backgrounds sitting next to me.  They said...yes it is real, and a big deal. 

 Agree with dominic85 that this used to be called  just movement, now  movement has a quantifiable number. 

K9 - not sure that an organization recognizing a guys worst pitch, which is getting crushed, should be thrown less is rocket science (hat tip to Houston, NASA and the cosmos). It seems like someone was doing their homework and said “Hey, maybe he shouldn’t throw this one?” Again, nothing to do with spin rate.

Fenway and Dominik85 - Agree spin rate = movement. My point is, in the short period of time a pitch is actually in flight, does it really matter? Extrapolating something that takes less than 1/2 a second to occur out to RPM, is it really relevant? 

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

K9 - not sure that an organization recognizing a guys worst pitch, which is getting crushed, should be thrown less is rocket science (hat tip to Houston, NASA and the cosmos). It seems like someone was doing their homework and said “Hey, maybe he shouldn’t throw this one?” Again, nothing to do with spin rate.

Fenway and Dominik85 - Agree spin rate = movement. My point is, in the short period of time a pitch is actually in flight, does it really matter? Extrapolating something that takes less than 1/2 a second to occur out to RPM, is it really relevant? 

 

It does make a difference, quite a bit.

 At 85 MPH (125 fps), increasing spin from 1200 RPM (20 rev per second) to 1800 RPM (30 rev per second) adds 5 inches of movement at 60 feet.

The way my son explains it, the new  high tech system allows pitchers to "reverse engineer" their deliveries to maximize spin rates on the best axis to get the desired movement.

The old way was to "try this" and watch the result. Lots of "try this" and you've maxed out on pitches.

Now, a pitcher can immediately see which minor alteration effects spin and axis. (Of course, this assumes a pitcher can feel, understand, and alter the physiology of his delivery.) 

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

Fenway and Dominik85 - Agree spin rate = movement. My point is, in the short period of time a pitch is actually in flight, does it really matter? Extrapolating something that takes less than 1/2 a second to occur out to RPM, is it really relevant? 

 

No offense do you live in a cave?....clearly not since your posting here. Head over to Drivelinebaseball.com and do some reading. That should help get you informed. 

BOF, I guess driveline is exactly my point. Not going to poke a bear, because again I don’t have a pitcher in my family. The point I am trying to make here is “Is all of hubbub about spin really that big of a deal?” In the MLB last year, it was a record setting year for HRs. So how much is focusing on spin really helping these guys?

BTW, I was born in a cave, that’s why I’m asking a-hole.

Great explanation by many in the posts above.

All of this new technology is just another tool in developing players and more importantly, helping them to understand what they need to do to improve their game.  

What the Astros started is now become the new normal in MLB.  BIg college programs have  pitching labs and employ experts or qualified students to interpret results.  Mid D1 programs likewise are jumping on the bandwagon.  This generation of players are technologically advanced and most if not all can relate and then use the information put in front of them.  

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

BOF, I guess driveline is exactly my point. Not going to poke a bear, because again I don’t have a pitcher in my family. The point I am trying to make here is “Is all of hubbub about spin really that big of a deal?” In the MLB last year, it was a record setting year for HRs. So how much is focusing on spin really helping these guys?

BTW, I was born in a cave, that’s why I’m asking a-hole.

It was a record setting year because of the baseball.

You asked for opinions, you have been given great responses.  I also suggest that you do some investigating and that may require visiting Driveline's site.

FWIW, calling a long time member of this community and also my friend, an a$$hole, is really unnecessary.

At my son's HS games there is a large group of dads behind the backstop who believe that hitters should swing down to put the ball into play, that pitchers should run poles after throwing and that baseball players should stay away from the weights.  Typically I nod hello and then make my way down the foul line.  I'm going to do that now.

A "spin rate" story: A few years ago, one of the top analytical minds in MLB was looking over the spin rate data of a college team's pitchers with his friend, the team's pitching coach. The MLB analyst had never seen most of the pitchers whose numbers he was reviewing.

As he went down the list, he stopped at one and proclaimed, "This one is very interesting." The numbers belonged to a little-used pitcher, who was about to enter his red-shirt Freshman year. 

The season after that conversation, the pitcher whose spin rate would put him in the top 2-3% of all college pitchers went on to become one of the top closers in college baseball and a First-Team All-American pitcher.

It's a big deal.

Maybe starting a post by saying “no offense, but....I’m going to offend you anyway” is a BS move on a board like this, maybe you should look at yourself in a mirror if you think that is ok. Hear from others on here you are real piece of work too, man, birds of a feather must flock together.

TPM posted:

Great explanation by many in the posts above.

All of this new technology is just another tool in developing players and more importantly, helping them to understand what they need to do to improve their game.  

What the Astros started is now become the new normal in MLB.  BIg college programs have  pitching labs and employ experts or qualified students to interpret results.  Mid D1 programs likewise are jumping on the bandwagon.  This generation of players are technologically advanced and most if not all can relate and then use the information put in front of them.  

 

University of Texas just opened the Roger Clemens pitching lab.

(insert joke here)

Baseball has always been a game of adjustments. The current emphasis on launch angle has resulted in more home runs at the elite level of play (college & pro ball).  It has resulted in more strike outs and pop ups at every other level of play. A swing that is too uphill (and most of them get that way in a hurry if that’s what the emphasis is on) leaves a hole at the top of the strike zone that can be exploited by any pitcher. A pitcher with a high spin rate on his FB can accomplish this more easily (assuming he has command) as his FB will stay on plane longer, as others have so accurately pointed out. So is spin rate a real thing? Is it really that big a deal? Are we too caught up in metrics in general? Yes, yes, and yes. 

collegebaseballrecruitingguide posted:

FWIW, calling a long timemember of this community and also my friend, an a$$hole, is really unnecessary.

Maybe starting a post by saying “no offense, but....I’m going to offend you anyway” is a BS move on a board like this, maybe you should look at yourself in a mirror if you think that is ok. Hear from others on here you are real piece of work too, man, birds of a feather must flock together.

OK, first, an attempt to move past this part of the debate as the topic is a good one...

BOF's comment, "do you live in a cave", taken in context with the rest of what he said can be interpreted a few different ways.  He alluded to the fact that you've been on this site for a while, suggesting (I think) that he is surprised that you haven't seen some rather detailed support to the spin science here by now and then offered direction to a solid reference source.  Also, if you pay attention to BOF's contributions, they are rarely if ever offensive.  So I would lean pretty heavily on the much less offensive interpretation.  You responded with "A-hole".  OK, I get the possible misinterpretation.  TPM says "not necessary".  Hardly harsh or offensive on her part.  You then took it up a couple notches and went with "BS", "hear from others.. you are a real piece of work", "birds of a feather".  I'm  gonna have to go with the flock on this one.  Let's move on.

The general result of "more movement" has been touched on.  The "ride" and "tail" have been expanded on nicely.  But I think it is important to look at totality.  With high spin (and a reasonable velo), a 12-9 has a bigger drop and lower bottom, a slider or cutter has more lateral and a good FB has more ride/tail.  When combined with gravity, the high spin curve can be substantially sharper.  Then there is perception.  A hitter perceives movement of a pitch to be more significant than it is.  I can't explain that part but I sure as heck know it to be true, at least for most.  i.e. - the tailing FB DOES look like it rises, etc.  Combine all of these factors in totality and you definitely have a significant factor, despite any limits to the cumulative added revs over the distance of a pitch.  

How much is natural and how much can be manufactured?  At what age/velo does it start to come into play?  I will admit that I am probably more in the camp with CBRG and Adbono on this one.  I certainly believe a pitcher should throw, as much as possible, with a delivery that is natural to him.  I also believe that the trained eye of a good P coach/baseball person can most often recognize spin or lack thereof and steer a P toward adding via different grips, pressures, releases, etc.  That has been around forever.  As someone stated, there was also the "well, this didn't work, let's try this" process.  That said, I think the evolution of the technology combined with learning how best to experiment with and act on the data will allow for a quicker and more thorough learning curve and, thus, improved results.  On the other side of the coin, I agree that it is relatively meaningless at the lower levels where velo won't produce different results.  That said, I think it is still to be determined whether there will be advantages to applying the findings to the mechanical teachings of younger pitchers.  I suspect that eventually, there will be.

Launch angle -  many players at higher levels purposely adjust swings to attain a higher launch angle and many focus on swings on plane and high solid contact rates or just squaring up the ball.  There is give and take.  I think the best approach varies from player to player depending on strength and skill set and how it plays out within whatever environment they play in.  I certainly think an on-plane swing is the best teach for a young developing player.  Adjustments such as launch angle/swing plane can be made later.

Exit velo - much the same as spin rate, I think the technology will eventually lead to improvements in swing mechanics that will allow for better power for the average hitter but not as much for the ones who seem to find the top limits naturally.  Again, context is key.  A hitter should develop his whole swing and approach, not just more exit velo.

I always tried to described baseball as a "game of inches". Spin rate is a big deal, as the extra couple rotations result in an extra couple inches of break/tail/ride etc... which results in less quality contact at the plate. Its not rocket science and its been around a long time, its was just called movement. (personal experience) Anyone that has been drilled on top of their foot (no muscle or padding just bone) by a nasty back-foot slider while swinging for the fences has thought (once the pain and the hoping around on one foot calms down) he spun the bleep out of that one

As for the increase in HR, there are too many other factors related than just the spin rate of a baseball. Baseballs themselves have changed over the years along with the size and approach of hitters. Also pitchers throwing harder than ever, but more importantly living down and away with their fastballs. Anytime a hitter is comfortable in the box = Advantage hitter! Which makes me wonder if the term "launch angle" over the past 10 years or so is a result of hitters trying to adjust to fireballers consistently throwing down and away over the past 10 years or so??? (maybe not, just a thought)