Actually, I believe you will see an explosion in this area in the next two years. With the Rapsodo units, costs have come down. I believe the system now runs a little over $3k. That is extremely affordable for many of the private facilities throughout the country. They have just recently refined their units to the point of objective reliability. This will happen fast, in my estimation.

I may have used the term "outstanding" in a confusing manner.  What I meant to imply was spin rates might prove useful in the absence of some kid having great numbers ("outstanding" in my initial comment) for mph or KO's.  Did not mean to imply that the metrics themselves were outstanding metrics.  

AS for high school stats, it sounds like we are generally on the same page as to the usefulness of high school stats, although our reasons why such stats are not terribly useful may not line up perfectly.On my point about competition, you could have very valid stats for a team's pitcher showing solid performance (low ERA, high KO's. low walks, etc) but unless you are able to backtest the batting averages of the opposing players (and maybe the pitchers they have been facing all season long), you cannot assume he is pitching against top talent, at which point the stats have less impact.

 

2017LHPscrewball posted: I may have used the term "outstanding" in a confusing manner.  What I meant to imply was spin rates might prove useful in the absence of some kid having great numbers ("outstanding" in my initial comment) for mph or KO's.  Did not mean to imply that the metrics themselves were outstanding metrics.  

That makes more sense to me. Thanx.

AS for high school stats, it sounds like we are generally on the same page as to the usefulness of high school stats, although our reasons why such stats are not terribly useful may not line up perfectly.On my point about competition, you could have very valid stats for a team's pitcher showing solid performance (low ERA, high KO's. low walks, etc) but unless you are able to backtest the batting averages of the opposing players (and maybe the pitchers they have been facing all season long), you cannot assume he is pitching against top talent, at which point the stats have less impact.

I guess everything revolves around what you’re looking to use the stats for. If you’re looking to hand out a ship or draft a HS kid, I agree the stats normally seen in the paper or in places like MaxPreps don’t serve much of a purpose other than to identify the top performers. But, if you’re a coach trying to set the most productive lineup he can from the players he has available, or if he’s trying to identify the players he can help the most, it’s a different matter.

CaCO3Girl posted:

VERY interesting topic, I have some questions:

1. You can expect a growing HS kid to gain a bit on velocity just due to natural growth.  Does the spin rate change as well with growth?

2. 2200-2300 is not good according to PG, does that apply to a breaking ball as well as a fastball?

3. How do you get trackman to tell you WHEN it recorded the spin rate data?

CaCO, there is something called a Bauer unit, which normalizes spin rate, taking velocity into account (faster pitches will generally have more spin): www.drivelinebaseball.com/2017...ts-pitch-comparison/

CaCO3Girl posted:

VERY interesting topic, I have some questions:

1. You can expect a growing HS kid to gain a bit on velocity just due to natural growth.  Does the spin rate change as well with growth?

2. 2200-2300 is not good according to PG, does that apply to a breaking ball as well as a fastball?

3. How do you get trackman to tell you WHEN it recorded the spin rate data?

1. It's unclear. Spin rate remains fairly consistent, as far as I can tell, after puberty. There have been some tests trying to determine factors on spin rate and it's still a mystery. For example, tests designed to measure the effect of grip strength on spin rate have found no correlation.

2. A majority of fastballs will fall in this range. From my minimal research, I'd guess that somewhere upwards of 90% of four seam fastballs will fall between 2100-2300 rpm. What this mean is that the majority of fastballs hitters see are in this range. The hitters mind must make micro-computed projections on the path of an incoming fastball. Given past experience, the hitter's mind will default to the path of a fastball thrown with this spin rate. Fastballs with spin rates significantly higher than this range will fight of the effects of gravity to a greater degree and follow a path that doesn't drop as quickly. Thus a hitter will often swing under a fastball with a 2500 rpm spin, because his mind computed it reaching the plate at a lower position than it in fact arrived. Alternately, a fastball spinning at 1900 rpm is more effected by gravity than the those in the 2100-2300 range and fall to a position below where the mind decided it was going to be. So, generally, if you could choose, you'd like to throw at a rate either a couple hundred rpm below or above the "normal" range. If you break it down, I believe you'll see much higher rates of swing-and-miss at the higher and lower ranges, given similar velocity.

3. On Trackman, if you attach your player to your account, it will show a graph with all of the pitches. Unfortunately, it seems individual pitch data only seems to be available for balls that made contact with a bat - fair or foul. When you put your cursor on the pitch, you get no information on other pitches, but on the ones included, you get date, opponent, batter's name, exit velocity, pitch type and result.

The numbers I used above came not from Trackman, but from the MLB PDP results and were recorded by a Rapsodo system. Through Trackman, I don't see any real vertical/horizontal break data.

Root,

What about the rate of deceleration?  Any data in regards to time of flight compared to max velo and spin rate?

If it takes a 85mph 4 seam with a 2200 rpm .45 sec to travel 55ft.  How long does it take at 2500 rpm?  

 

real green posted:

Root,

What about the rate of deceleration?  Any data in regards to time of flight compared to max velo and spin rate?

If it takes a 85mph 4 seam with a 2200 rpm .45 sec to travel 55ft.  How long does it take at 2500 rpm?  

 

My guess would be that, because it drops slightly less and takes a slightly straighter path to the plate (perhaps the total flight distance of the pitch is as much as an inch shorter because of less "curve" in the actual flight pattern), it would get there slightly sooner. Since deceleration occurs at a non-linear rate, my guess is that that last inch could make the same pitch arrive at the plate as much as 1-2 mph slower. I'm sure the math could be done, but it's beyond my abilities. I'm a lawyer. I was promised there's be no math in my profession.

To be more clear, it would seem logical that 85mph out of the hand at 2500 rpm would arrive at the plate quicker and at a higher rate of speed than the same pitch, form the same angle, out of the hand at 2200 rpm. Would be interested in the actual numbers. 

Breaking this stuff down boggles my mind at how much brain power goes into hitting a baseball. Makes you appreciate what some of these guys can do.

roothog66 posted:

To be more clear, it would seem logical that 85mph out of the hand at 2500 rpm would arrive at the plate quicker and at a higher rate of speed than the same pitch, form the same angle, out of the hand at 2200 rpm. Would be interested in the actual numbers. 

I'm going to guess that they show up at the same time.  While the argument about distance may have some merit, I am guessing that the 2500 rpm ball creates a tad more (scientific term) drag, which allows for the "rise".  

What I'd love to know is whether the actual fingertips are traveling faster with the 2500 rpm versus the 2200 rmp (identical mph out of hand) and the additional fingertip velocity is translated somehow into additional spin.  Some form of energy is required to produce additional spin and wonder if a pitcher could dial back spin on occasion and pick up 1-2 mph.

I've got an 11 yo whose fingers bleed off to the side most times when he throws (pitching, throwing to 1st, OF thros, etc).  I keep telling him he is probably "throwing" hard enough, but he is losing velocity and he is not transferring the energy into forward movement.  My 2017 is recommending the towel drill to help correct.  That is an extreme example of spin rate (sidespin) taking away from MPH but is an easy analogy for my point above.

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