Staying well-armed ... Young pitchers are increasingly at risk of injury

 

Agreed.  Very good guidelines. 

I totally disagree. 

 

1) These kids should focus on their fastball first and foremost, not working on a changeup that won't help them at the next level.  The change up thrown in college and beyond is not the same changeup in h.s. 

 

2) The curveball is a safe pitch when thrown properly.

 

3) Sliders and splitters are dangerous pitches for a h.s. pitcher and should not be thrown at all.

 

 

 

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH QUALIFIED PITCHING INSTRUCTORS WHO COACH AT THE YOUTH LEVELS

Bum,

I agree first work on the fastball.  Then for the second pitch, the change up.  If thrown properly it will help you at the next level, be that HS or college or beyond.  Are you advocating throwing a curveball at ages 8 and 10 as a second pitch because it's safe if thrown properly?  I think the curveball should be unveiled at age 13/14.  Just my opinion.

No, certainly not.  I'm advocating learning to compete with and develop the fastball, through long-toss and sound mechanical training.  The curveball age 13/14 is a good pitch to mix in since it is the equivalent of a changeup anyway.  Go and and use the change just remember you will not master it at the h.s. level.  I don't know any large college coaches that recruit a fastball/change unless the fastball is 90+.  They are looking for a fastball/breaking pitch and be forwarned the slider and especially the splitter are arm killers.

Overuse is definately the main problem, but let's also mention the lack of knowledge of some coaches on how to develop a pitcher. I'm sure we've all seen/heard of conditioning that is being used for baseball players that actually can hurt them more then help. Who has seen baseball teams using drills really for football players? How about youth league coaches or HS for that matter who do not have their pitchers on a pitching program. They usu pitch then go play another position same day. The next several days they do not have a set program to follow they just wait until they get on the mound again. IMO HS coaches need to get special training to work with pitchers, esp when it comes to conditioning.

What it is- its overuse. Trying to push aside the real issue and blame it on something else. Its not throwing breaking balls. They may contribute, but really only in the overall pitch count. Last year on our hs team there were two kids who had elbow pain. Only one was a pitcher, other was a position player. Heres my point- neither one threw a breaking ball! Every arm is different, mechanics change from pitcher to pitcher. Some may be born with greater ligament strength. Some may condition better. Some may have bad luck. Not sure exactly how every case is but I do know that every kid has his threshold. For some it may be one inning while others it may be a complete game. But, its not hard to put two and two together to realize and understand that overusing an arm is not healthy and is definitely the fault in almost every case of throwing injury!

Sliders are not arm killers. Pitching too much- "ARM KILLERS"

Wrong, Skylark. H.S. and college sliders are most definitely arm killers.  I've seen too much of it.  Thank God Bum, Jr. didn't pitch too much at his first college.  They tried to take away his curve and throw a slider that (fortunately) was not a quality pitch.  So he got few innings there.  There were several players on that team that went under the knife.  All slider pitchers.

Bum, your opinion I guess. Fastballs will continue to be the most stressful force on a pitchers arm. Studies even prove that.

It has been shown that the fastball is a cause of arm injury. But so is the slider. Most physicians, physical therapists, and athletic trainers would agree they'd much rather see a kid throw a fastball (and change up) than a slider or a curve ball.

Skylark, if the fastball is the cause of most arm injuries I guess most kids shouldn't throw fastballs, right?  Perhaps frisbees?  Baseball is a game built around the fastball.  Without it, without a good fastball, it is impossible for any kid to pitch at the "next level", whether that level is travel ball, h.s., college or beyond.

 

Throwing a fastball is by definition "fast".  It is a calculated risk to throw a baseball fast.  But not doing so would seal the fate of most any pitcher.  Hang up the cleats, go bowling or join a choir, because your baseball days are over.  Read all the studies that tell you it is so stressful and make your choice.  Quit the game or take the chance.  Without it you quit the game.  Period.

 

Not so when determining which secondary pitches to throw.  The changeup at the lower levels, while effective, is usually thrown improperly and detracts from the ultimate goal (to develop and learn how to command a good fastball).  Kids slow their delivery, open up, and engage in trickery all of which might work but each time one is thrown it is subtracting from the gain that could be had learning to command a hard fastball. 

 

Get to college, and you will quickly learn that kiddie change is merely a BP fastball that goes yard.  Don't kid yourself, your changeup in h.s. is a meatball.  Have fun with it, throw it, get people out with it, but it's subtracting from your development. Try to sign with a D1 college with an average fastball and a B.P. changeup.  Not going to happen!.

 

So you need a solid FASTball and a secondary (breaking) pitch.  Again, the secondary pitch is NOT a B.P. fastball.  That leaves few other options, so choose: a college slider, which will tell your arm "I'm toast" in a year or two or a curveball, which if thrown properly, is harmless.

 

Skylark, I've seen enough of the college sliders to know they're worthless AND dangerous.    

 

I'm NOT saying changeups are bad.  Just consistently saying the changeup in h.s. and in college and beyond are two different pitches.  Two different pitches!

 

 

 

 

 

Bum,

You sure are on this CU kick, hehe! My son has one of the best cu around, when he can command it, ( not very often). Your opinion may be that sliders are bad for the arm, perhaps bad for your kids arm. Whatever, you have your opinion. Let me ask this- how many professional pitchers throw a breaking ball over 80 mph? How many throw a cutter over 85 mph? The "slider" is a pitch that is thrown with mechanics somewhere between a traditional curve ball and the fastball. The cutter is very similar to the slider but then again, so is the traditional curve ball. So, how many professional pitchers are on the road to ruin because they throw a slider or cutter, or any "hard" breaking ball? You can learn to throw any pitch safely. Like I said before, we had 2 kids on our hs team that had chronic inside elbow pain. Neither one of them pitch a breaking ball. Why is it then that there were also 2 kids on our hs team that threw hard breaking balls that have never had chronic elbow pain?

This reminds me of some of those baseball camps where they go into all these drills supposedly to protect your arm and increase velocity and efficiency saying this or that is bad and yet, you go watch video of long term professional successful pitchers and they do everything opposite of what you learned at camp.

It is amazing how misinformed and naive people can be. Bum, you are absolutely 100% incorrect about a change up not being a secondary pitch that college programs look for.  It absolutely IS.  Yes, command of a curve is necessary too however the fastball and changeup are the top two pitches considered.  How much movement does the FB and changeup have with command.  

 

Sliders are the most harmful to any arm.  Period.  This is the risk pitchers take when they choose to have a slider as one of their pitches.  Many do NOT throw it.  If you have command of various fastballs with movement, a nice changeup that is in the range of 10-12mph off the FB and have a curve that has late break with better velocity in a 12-6 to 1-7 rotation, then you have THE 3 pitches to take you to any level.  ANY level.  I include "cutters" as FB pitches because it is a "cut fastball".  Meaning, fastball thrown with movement, due to a different grip than just a 2 seam or 4 seam.  

 

I have been to the last ASMI seminars.  There is more science out today than ever.  I am not sure about your background but it seems sketchy from the words you speak.  Many things are not done "old school" any more.  Long toss beyond 120' for pitchers is purely harmful, NOT sound conditioning.  That is just one example.  

 

Over usage is a bad thing.  That's why THE programs that are true programs, have a rotation, pitch counts and a full off season/ in season conditioning that is isolated for pitchers deceleration  and acceleration areas.  Come on people.  Get informed.  Get some knowledge before you somehow try to persuade people of your opinion in an attempt to "help" I guess,    

What to throw, how old, etc. all depends on the pitcher.  IE: I did not let my son throw a CB until he could throw his FB for strikes... a lot of strikes.  Then we moved onto the CU - again, for strikes.  Mixed in a CB (slowly) at 13.  To this day (he’s 15 now) I still have to remind him to back off on the CB and rely on his FB/CU.  Pitchers live off their FB and deceive hitters with off speed when the situation dictates.  He loves to throw his CB because he is successful and feels comfortable with it, but throwing it 2-3 times in a row because his CU isn’t working is not a good thing and often results in hard hit balls.  There is no magic rhyme or reason to when or how you teach a young pitcher to throw various pitchers, but one thing is for sure - all pitchers are not created equally and they develop at different rates. 

Fastballs are the most dangerous pitch on the arm. The fastball has been to show having the greatest stress on both the shoulder and elbow. When you couple that fact with kids playing more baseball than they should, you have what is called "overuse". Overuse is the number one leading cause for pitching/throwing injuries. Studies have shown that pitchers who throw breaking balls (including sliders) are no more at risk than those who don't.  Again- Ask yourself these questions on the health of your kids arm-

 

Does my kid pitch while injured or fatigued?

Does my kid play baseball more than 8 months out of the year?

Does my kid play multiple position that require a lot of throwing after he pitches?

Does my kid throw over 80 mph?

 

Answering yes to any of these questions places your kid at an increased risk for injury (yes, even just throwing hard increases risk). This means you should be aware of the main risk factors and learn to stop, limit, or control those situations. No one should be pitch9ing more than 8 months out of the year. No one should pitch while fatigued or injured. Pitchers should rest after pitching. If your kid throws at 80 mph or above he really needs to learn to stretch properly and condition his muscles and ligaments to prevent injury.

Skylark - I’m going to give you the same perspective my surgeon gave me 20 years ago.  Pitching (a baseball) is one of the most unnatural and violent motions to the human body.  The rotator cuff was not meant to throw overhand with any force at all.  Hence the reason fast pitch softball pitcher can throw all day and in some cases two days in a row... it’s really not that uncommon to see a young lady pitch a complete game then throw a few more the next day... but overhand pitching... the human body just wasn’t made for it.  Think about that for a minute. 

 

Now - Ill say this, having been the recipient of reconstructive surgery (RT rotator cuff).  Pitching has its dangers and risks associated.  But they can be mitigated with proper instruction on mechanics, conditioning specific to pitchers, and arm care.  I don’t care what pitch you throw.  If it is thrown with poor mechanics, no strength and conditioning program, the arm is overused whether it is in a bullpen, on the mound or playing a position... you will end up with a 4" scar just like many others. 

bballdad2016,

 I agree, proper mechanics coupled with proper conditioning and rest is a recipe for a long career regardless of what pitches you actually throw.

 

We had one pitcher last year, horrible mechanics, could only go 1-3 innings and then have to have a week off to rehab the sore elbow. He only threw fastballs btw.

Good post Coach Rob.

A lot of this is a matter of opinion and how it is perceived.

My son didn't throw a true CB in HS more like a slurve but did not rely on it for success. He threw a 4 seam, a 2 seam (with different grips) and a CU 9with different grips) and he did just fine in college and at the next level until he began throwing a true slider and developed shoulder then elbow problems (again only after he began relying more on the slider).

So I truely believe that the slider is a very harmful pitch. He began throwing a cutter at the end of last season, now being a reliever, his secondary stuff does not have to be AS important as his 96-99 mph fastball or his 88-89 sinker (both with lots of movement).  Movement becomes more important the higher one goes up the ladder.  If your FB doesn't have that movement, you better have a good secondary pitch to keep them off balance or you are not going anywhere.

 

First and foremost the FB, no matter how "fast" it may be, needs to be THE most important pitch for ANY pitcher.  Not the straight down the middle FB, but the one that moves up, down, inside, outside and this DOES take a long time to command, so yes, do not let your young pitcher give up this pitch for the breaking ball.

I do not agree with everything being said, but I agree that the CU is much different at the pro level.  A HS pitcher with good FB with movement and a decent change will get lots of opportunities at the college level, the velocity being the game changer. 

Yes pitching fast can cause injury, mix that in with CB, slider and overuse WILL cause injury. I leave out CU for reasons discussed.

 

I also believe that for many tossing past 120 feet can be harmful.

 

Coach Rob is definetly got it right. You will not see that many injuries in pitchers in the really good programs because they know how to use their staff, know how to develop good pitching by montoring pitch counts and know how to do specific pitcher conditioning off season as well as in season.

 

He is also correct in the statement that any pro pitcher that throws a slider knows the implications and many abandon the pitch after they develop elbow issues. If this causes issues in mature pitchers why would you want your HS pitcher throwing one?