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Strike zone??

BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Coaches talk about narrowing your strike zone ahead in the count and widening it behind in the count.....

I don't like this approach....I say, if the ball is hittable, hit it.....On any pitch count...

Coaches also say, work the count.....I don't agree with this.....I'm not trying to make the pitcher throw alot of pitches....I would just as soon beat him on one pitch than five, six or seven pitches.....
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B bbscout1,000+ posts
Ted Williams showed it best in his book. There are many pitches in the strike zone that a good hitter can hit, but how many of those pitches can he hit with authority?? You can swing at a first pitch fastball that is 2" low and 2" outside and hit it, but it won't do you much good if you hit a 4 hopper to the 2nd baseman.

Get a good pitch to hit and then rip it hard.
T TW344100+ posts
Narrowing the strike zone with the count in your favor and widening it when the count is not is, for me at least, an oversimplification of the thought process behind an intelligent use of what I learned as the 'selcetive hitter" approach. What pitch can I consitently hit for a line drive, home run, etc. That is the question to ask. Are you a belt high down the middle fastball hitter? OK, who isn't? Do you hit the outside knee high located pitch [fastball, curveball, whatever] better than the low inside located pitch? Can you catch up to the abs to letters high fastball? Are you often fooled on the low curveball, slider, forkball, etc. that breaks down in the dirt?

Only when a hitter has critically examined his own strengths and weaknesses at the plate in this manner can he begin to approach the idea of narowing the strike zone when he is ahead in the count. For me, at least, this approach goes back to Ted William's book The Science of Hitting. As a young Babe Ruth League player many years ago, TSW's all possible pitches in the strike zone chart on himself was a complete revelation to me. He showed those pitches in the true strike zone he could hit over .400 if he got them every at bat. He also showed those pitches in the true strike zone where he could not hit above .200 if he were to swing at those pitches. Ted Williams preached this approach to selective hitting, some say to a fault. He also advocated studying pitchers and their tendencies and educated guessing in certain situations. Those topics, however, are food for another day.

When the count is in his favor, a selective hitter should prepare himself physically and mentally to hit those pitches thrown in his predetermined comfort zone and take those pitches that he has trouble hitting even if they are in the strike zone. However, this is not something you can just think about and it will happen. This approach needs to be practiced in the bating cage and elsewhere by taking those pitches that are not in your comfort zone but are still in the true strike zone and only swinging at pitches in your comfort zone. As a hitter, you also need to practice hitting those pitches outside your comfort zone more consistently so that you hit .250 when you have to swing at those pitches instead of .170.

As to the issue of widening the strike zone, once the count reaches two strikes, the strike zone should not be widened beyond the strike zone but the "selective hitter" approach must now be discarded or, better put, redirected. The hitter must prepare to make contact with anything that is in the strike zone [which may be beyond the true strike zone depending on the umpire of the day and the side of the bed he got up on].

I am sure there are others who approach the situations I have described differently and I hope they add there thoughts on this potentially very informative thread. Again, I do not claim to be always right. But I am not always wrong either.

TW344
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
TW344,

I agree with most everything you said there. IMO it's called a hitter getting himself out. If a pitcher can throw a quality pitch on the black for strike one... you can get yourself out or wait for a better pitch.

Guess I've never seen the hitter who can hit every pitch equally well. However Icharo among the spray hitters and Pujols among the mashers do it about the best. They too take strikes at times.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
I have used this example before but I think it serves us well here:

High school game --last inning bases loaded two out in the bottom of inning---pitcher has just walked the last batter and has now been removed--new pitcher--two out sacks full---first pitch gets drilled by the teams #3 hitter for a grand slam home run to win the game-- people in the stands with me are asking why didn't the batter take the first pitch ?--I asked the batter after the game and his answer was right to the point--the pitcher needs to get the first pitch over for strike more than I need to hit it and he has only one pitch--a low 80's fast ball so I sat on it--it was probably the best pitch I would see from him because he wanted to groove it--- great concept from a HS hitter
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
Ichiro goes on to say.....

"The nature of batting is such that even if a pitcher gives you 10 tosses right down the middle, you're still not going to bat 1.000," he says. "That's just the way it is, and I accept that. Now, since pitchers don't just lob it in there like that, there are also times they're just going to outright beat you. I accept that, too. But now you've got the rest of your at-bats. Pitches I believe I should have been able to connect on for a hit but didn't for some reason are my mistakes. That's what I want to reduce."
Last edited by BlueDog
jemazjemaz1,000+ posts
Blue Dog:

There is a lot to be said for avoiding two strikes. At the same time, some of the best hitters I see almost hit better with two strikes than with one, unless it is 0-2.

I like to see aggressive hitting, but some guys swing at a lot of pitches that more than likely will produce outs. I guess this question is part of what makes hitting so difficult.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
.......but some guys swing at a lot of pitches that more than likely will produce outs.


Jemaz, these guys don't know how to hit many pitch locations and/or don't know how to recognize pitches......The better your technique, the more choices you have to hit.....And, it helps not to have a third base coach yelling in your ear in-between pitches making you think.....
N nd943100+ posts
This is very simple. As a batter you want to be able to hit your pitch, not the pitchers pitch. If your ahead in the count and there's a pitch on the outside corner and you prefer the ball middle in, why swing? What good will it do? You're probably not going to hit the ball hard. Wait for your pitch and hit it hard. You don't always have to work the count. If the pitcher grooves you a first pitch fast ball middle in and that's where you like it then swing. It's all about getting your pitch.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
The analogy is flawed IMO

Number one a hitter who hits over .300 in the pros is a "good" hitter
A hitter in college who hits over .350 is a "good hitter

Just because you say there are no good instructors, I am sure there are plenty good ones out there even if they do not meet the criteria of Blue Dog, does not necessarily mean there are no good hitters---I know and have seen many good hitters who never saw an instructor

On the other hand a good instructor cannot necessarily take a .200 hitter and make him a .300 hitter

Blue Dog is looking for the Holy Grail of baseball--there is always a better way to be found in time but that does not make the other methods bad--keep in mind that in baseball there is no one way to hit
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
ummm WillBoBo...by the standards of MLB for the last 100-plus years, 3/10 is good... everything is relative. if someone could only make contact with a golf ball 3/10 times (and it is on a tee) then you have some problems...

but by your comment, all batters are poor because of the 3/10... but you say 4/10 and 5/10 are good...???

then all pitchers must be great.. because on average they get 7/10 players out... so all pitchers are good?? yes? no?
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
A 3/10 success rate is terrible in any sport.

The relative nature of the game is to lower expectations until they meet the current talent level.

My point about instructors being as sub-par as hitters was to point out that even with instruction, hitters are not performing well.

With the exception of catchers gear, gloves and the right of way while fielding a ball, all changes to the game have been in favor of the hitter. Hitters have gotten worse over the course of time.

I was being kind in saying that ,400 or .500 would be better, but still mediocre.

Pitchers have it fairly easy in order to be good, if not great. If they stay ahead in the count and keep the ball in the park, they are great pitchers.
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
BOBO

I can read also-- I was hoping you would tell me, with all your infinite wisdom, something I did not now

I see it this way--Williams was a great hitter, one of the greatest ever

With your reasoning, or lack thereof, where does that leave Mantle, Mays, Frank Robinson, Al Kaline, Clemente and many others too many to name--in todays era where do you put Pujols--he has not hit .400 or .500 yet
Last edited by TRhit
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
BOBO ( my fingers keep trying to find the D key instead of B but I grab them before it happens)

Where did I say .200 hitters

Read what is posted or dont read at all

And like I said watch the trees--the roots of trees in Florida do not grwo deep into the earth-- you better alert the tree people that you cite
Last edited by TRhit
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
WillieBobo... 3/10 is bad in any sport? you have got to be kidding?... I am not saying that a .300 hitter is awesome... but if you hit .300 with guys in scoring position, or over a season with 45+ bombs... surly you did some good in the RBI column.. and that is what wins games.... so every player in MLB has been awful sicne Williams... come on, that is silly....

so golfers should sink the ball on a par three in one (ace) at least 3/10? No. Why? because everything is relative...

and you are saying pitchers are great now? because of what hitters are hitting at? You had better contact MLB because they are saying pitching is watered down... and not enough quality pitchers out there....

bobo... you are looking at stats too close... what if a hitter just creamed the ball for ten straight at bats... outfielders made some over the shoulder catches, over the wall saves, diving plays... but the balls were hit on a rope...is that hitter a porr hitter for that series because he went 0-10...?

Blue- who is a good hitting instructor?
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
3 for 10 won't get it in basketball or football

Let's raise the standard to 3 for 8. If the average hitter can do 3 for 8, I would say that hitters are getting better. As it stands now, all that is asked is that a player get 1 hit in 3 at bats to reach the Hall of Fame. One for three is not asking much of a professional.

Golf is different and forgiving. In golf, you have strokes determined by club distance and then you get two putts. Good golfers usually only need the one putt.

I never said that pitchers were great now. Most neither stay ahead in the count nor keep the ball in the park. But compared to the hitters they are facing, they look like stars.

I blame the poor pitching on the scouts and GM's. They are more infatuated with height and pitch speed than control and movement. (same with hitters)

I have looked at stats over the years and they are surprising. Would you be surprised that more hits are recorded by balls hit in the air as compared to balls hit on the ground? It is true and has held true since the beginning of the game.

The pitchers guile and the placement of the fielders is the reason that I only ask for .500 hitters. I have often taught that a hitter should make contact in every at bat to make something happen. Sometimes the umps will not agree with the batters eye on balls and strikes and other times the pitcher will throw something that the batter cannot handle. That is the game within the game.

Remember the advice to be a good hitter is to hit it where they ain't.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
If the standard were 3 for 8 - .375
There are several in my lifetime who have had years hitting over .375 in the major leagues.

Here’s an idea that will surely give us better hitters. Let’s only allow 5 defensive players out there on the field. I guarantee the batting averages will sky rocket and we will then have some true great hitters.

Then again if we want lower batting averages let’s put 9 extra fielders out there and see how many hits drop in.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Baseball has been trying to help hitters since at least 1919. The biggest aid has been the lively baseball and constant replacement of baseballs throughout the game. Since that time home runs have skyrocketed from the previous all time home run record of 27 in a season by Ned Williamson in 1884 for the Chicago White Stockings.

Various pitches were outlawed and the mound was lowered. The strike zone was made smaller. The average professional baseball player still hits about .250.

Baseballs were livened again and the only improvement was in home runs hit.

I'll lower my standards for a good hitter even lower, how about one hit each game? Not as many hits as there are games, but one hit each game played.

If a player can match this challenge, they would be at least about a .270 hitter, but guaranteed a place in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
30% is considered good because we know from empirical experience that even the best can do little better at the peaks of their respective careers.

In basketball, a free throw shooter should hit at least 70% of his free throws, and 80% would be better. 30% would be woeful even for Shaq. Would you argue that a hitter should bat .700 or .800, by comparing to the free throw standard?

Ever hear the term, "apples and oranges"?

You cited a few things done to help offense, but you omitted some key developments that have worked against the hitters. How many guys threw over 90 back in 1919? Now every MLB team has several. There was a time when the curve ball was new, and many wanted to outlaw it. Now you see sliders and cutters over 90.

You talk about lowering the mounds, but originally the mound was there only to keep the pitcher's area from becoming a mud hole. It wasn't until later that folks started raising it specifically to give pitchers an advantage. That got out of hand and lowering it was a reaction.

Ever been to a museum and seen the old timey baseball gloves? Think Ozzie Smith could've done what he did with one of them? Or Andruw Jones? Or do you argue that since Vizquel can catch 'em bare handed, that should be the standard by which we measure every one on every play?

I have to believe you were pulling our legs on this one, because otherwise you need some time off.
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
It is unreasonable to surmise that pitchers in the past did not throw in the 90's. The present technology used to measure pitch speed did not exist in their day. It would be as unreasonable as giving an eye witness account of an event at which you were not present in the years before television.

The old four finger gloves were fantastic. I used one for five years. Infield or outfield, those gloves were very dependable. I think Ozzie would have had no trouble with an old four finger glove.

Since the mounds were lowered and the strike zone made smaller to aid the hitter, what improvement have hitters shown?

The basic play of the game has not changed. Pitchers have to throw the ball where hitters can hit it and hitters have to hit it where it can't be fielded.

The only things that have gotten better in the history of baseball are the stories apologists concoct to justify poor hitting.
Last edited by Quincy
B baseballpapa100+ posts
I tell my kid that there are no balls and strikes as a hitter, just "pitches you can drive and all others to let go by." The umpires call balls and strikes, not my son.

I tell him to ignore counts and look for a pitch to drive. We then in practice only swing at pitches he can drive. When he was little I used to set a tee outside of the strike zone and then tell him he should not have swung at it if he cannot drive it.

When doing live bp, the biggest part of the drill was to let pitches go by he couldn't handle. I think coaches who tell kids to swing at everything in bp do not understand hitting. Watch a kid in a cage before a game. By afraid of the one that lets pitches go by then kills the ones that he can drive.

In .400 seconds you don't have time to go over a count in your head, just hit. As one major league instructor says, if two strike routines work, use them no matter the count.

Over the course of a season, if a hitter only offers at pitches he can handle he'll look back at pretty good numbers.

Finally, I don't believe there are too many good hitters that have not learned from someone. It may be by watching and emulating, but there are verrrry few natural hitters. Conversely, with all the lessons out there, hitting seems to be suffering. Makes me think we can do better teaching it.
N NYdad500+ posts
Williebobo wrote:

There are no good hitters. Since there are no good hitters, there are no good hitting instructors or theories of hitting.

WOW that is a pretty bold and blanket statement!

Willie - would like to know if you are you basing your "no good hitters" statement on production, swing mechanics or both?

Bluedog wrote:

There are no good hitting instructors... Hitting instruction in baseball is in the dark ages.....

Bluedog - knowing you have studied and dissected many MLB hitters swings over the years...my question to you is who then has worked with these guys in developing their high-level swings if there aren't any good instructors out there or are these guys all self-taught?
Q Quincy1,000+ posts
Production is the only thing that matters.

The swing and mechanics do not matter.

If it works, don't fix it.

If it doesn't, better to fix it than just keep making excuses.

Ted Williams had an unorthodox swing, but it worked.

Yogi Berra would swing at 'bad pitches', but no other man can show ten world series rings that he won.

The best hiters are not text book hitters until they write the text book, but what works for them may not work universally.

The best blanket statements that agree with me are team batting averages.
B baseballpapa100+ posts
I obviously got into the strike zone discussion late. I told a D1 coach that there has been more money spent on hitting lessons in the recent past and probably a decline of hitting. He agreed.

BlueDog is on to something. Swing level, keep your back elbow up, squish the bug, don't try to hit the ball hard, keep the ball down, don't stride, keep your hands still, keep your head still, rock back -- rock forward, roll your wrists ... I paid big money early for those lessons, then became my son's hitting coach.

I teach him, swing fast (or quick), knock the fence down, don't take a practice swing that is not game ready (unless warming up), forget one-handed drills, don't have a two strike routine, never have a drill where you swing at every ball, don't choke up on the bat, hit the ball line-drive to elevated, do stride, do have head movement forward but not when the front foot lands, there is no such of a thing as power hitters and contact hitters, the issue is elevation of the ball, guess if you must (watch the pitcher), ... That may all be wrong, but he still rakes. He is a 450 hitter with a 900 to 1000 slugging (50% of his hits are extra base hits and he is not that big) and a 500 on base.
DC Diablo con Huevos500+ posts
WilliBoBo-

You make zero sense... 3/10 won't get it in any sport???... it is obvious you are a stat-rat, and have not worked with mnay players above the little league level.. if you do work with anyone from h.s. or above, they prob didn't amount to much... but not because of lack of ability, but more so the lack of proper instruction...

more fly balls are hits than ground balls??? really, imagine that... so if you can hit it over the five guys on the infield then you have a better chabce of getting a hit ?? WOW! amazing info there...

So do you preach that because everyone in your neck of the woods still teaches swing down?

it is a no-brainer that balls in the air (fly balls, line-drives) will go for a higher avg. over ground balls... not so rocket science there... i'd love to know where/who you teach/coach... and where these players are now...

i'm amazed that some MLB team hasn't picked you up yet since all of the coaches/GM's at the pro level don't have a clue...
B baseballpapa100+ posts
I tell my son he now has to be his own hitting coach -- at least in the sense where he has to work on his game, and he has to make adjustments.

Even pro golfers keep a coach to fine tune and to see what they cannot. I am more my son's eyes now than anything else. As good as he is, he will have to change to be able to succeed later. He has too many holes, cannot hit the whole strike zone and is doing some things that have made his power area even smaller.

Still think there is a strike zone (beyond the control of the hitter and solely the ownership of the umpire), a hitting zone (where a kid has a chance with his swing to get a hit), and a power zone (fortunately for my son he found enough pitches here).
N NYdad500+ posts
Will, I tend to agree that overall the hitting could be better but to say there are NO good hitters is absurd IMO. Geez now i've got my son telling his friends Puljos, Manny and Ortiz can't hit a lick. rotlaugh

Bluedog,

hitters don't retain what we teach them....They only retain what they teach themselves after filtering what they hear.....The good hitters figure out a way to teach themselves....The others don't.....

Ummm it's clear as mud now....Big Grin
Teach themselve's in terms of timing and pitch recognizion yes....but what about the mechanical side and the siimilarities in a high-level swing from load, launch, weight shift momentum and rotation into contact...aren't there instructors out there teaching this stuff?

Bear in mind I'm one of those fathers you guys mentioned that have become there son's hitting instructor hence the inquisitiveness...but do let me know if i'm in way over my head here and I'll move on...Thanks.
CoachB25CoachB25Honorary "Old TImer"
Bluedog, we disagree on whether hitters retain what we teach them in one regard. If you instruct a concept, show them and then let them do it, you are correct more times than not. The key then is to ask them what they have done and then reteach it and rework it until they truly understand. My experince more often than not is that when a player says he understands, he doesn't. It is then incumbent upon the coach to truly check for understanding. Players will struggle with their explinations but once they have sequenced that information, they are on the path to understanding those concepts. I hope this makes sense. BTW, anyone that thinks that they can teach a concept once and the player will "get it" is either dealing with superior athletes or kidding themselves. JMHO!
Last edited by CoachB25
H hsballcoach100+ posts
Excellent points CoachB25. I also see a number of kids that become too dependant on instructors. One thing that I try to instill in all of my kids, whether private instruction or high school player, is that they need to understand what they are doing and what works so they can evolve and improve on their own. You cannot run for help anytime things go wrong, you need to be able to fix or adjust on your own. Take the knowledge that you will be given and make it your own. When something works for you, write it down and post it somewhere where you can go over it to keep it fresh in your mind.
BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
quote:
ultimately all hitters need to become their own coaches.


Grateful, they always do.....All the great hitters learned by emulation......By watching other great hitters......Not by doing what some coach or instructor told them to do.....

Ask any great hitter who taught them to hit.....They won't spit out a coach or instructor's name......

Hitters retain what they want to retain.....And, it's much less than most think.....As long as we're watching over them, they do what we say.....But, leave them and see what they do....

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