Studying Ruth, Mantle, Aaron and the others....

No thoughts on this?????

Ruth shouldn't be included in any baseball comparison to any home run hitter besides Alex Rodriquez.

No one else comes close to Ruth.

quote:

No one else comes close to Ruth.

It's fine to believe that...He was great....

But, anything to say about the Aaron quote?

The Aaron quote is common sense.

Any major leaguer who cannot hit a fastball shouldn't be there.

Watching for variations of pitches is what differentiates good hitters from great hitters.

quote:

Watching for variations of pitches is what differentiates good hitters from great hitters.

I believe there is more to it than this....Very few MLB hitters can hit a 98 MPH fastball......I think this is what seperates the greats from the rest....

The greats can/could be on time to hit the 98 MPH pitch and still have a chance to make the adjustment for the offspeed stuff....

looking for pitches that pitchers dont throw for strikes very often (quality breaking balls) does not seem logical. I believe what Hank said, but I dont believe he hit 370+ lifetime off of Koufax by sitting on breaking balls....maybe, but I doubt it.

IMO there are other factors to consider such as count, and the pitcher.

Any major leaguer should be able to hit a 98 mph fastball.

The ability to adjust in that split second from the time that a batter recognizes the variation to timing the swing for the slower speed is a path to greatness. Making contact does not guarantee a hit.

It is the 90 MPH plus slider that is the tough pitch to hit---the good hitters can hit a 100 MPH fastball regularly

This is where I believe most coaches/instructors don't get it.....

Most hitters can't hit the the 98 MPH fastball consistently.....They will be late on it most of the time.....The exception will be if they're guessing....And, if they are, they will struggle with something offspeed....

A hitter's internal clock is preset to average speed pitching and average ball movement......The slider or curve that hangs and/or loses speed....Or, the 85-95 MPH fastball.....

The great hitters adjust their internal clock....Their timing allows them to be on time for any speed pitch and great ball movement more times than the average hitters.......

Bluedog

Apparently you have not spoken to many of the real good hitters, even at the HS/College level---they will all tell you they want the "heater"---even LL'ers like the heater rather than junk


The good hitters "internal clock" as you call it is set for the heater and then adjust for the offspeed---most detest the offspeed pitches

Deemax, I understand what you're saying, but, as you agreed, we know he did say it.....So, there is meaning there to be studied, you agree?

I believe the point is that Hank is saying pitchers could throw fastballs by most hitters.....And, I agree.....To be a great hitter, this is where you start, IMO....But, there is more to it.....

TRhit, I have spoken to and filmed more than you know on many levels.....I have pitched simulated speed to many on many levels....And, I have found that no matter the level they play on, they struggle with real fast and real slow speeds.....

I will grant you, they think they want speed....But, the fact is, they struggle with real fast speed....They consistenly swing late...

This is why a young pitcher who can hit high nineties is so sought after by MLB....Even if his control is suspect....

Hitters hit best against what they see the most often.

In the Big Leagues this would be a 91-92 mph fastball. (they see that pitch more than any other pitch, probably a thousand times or more each year) In college this might be a 85-88 mph fastball. In high school this might be an 80 mph fastball. In higher levels of travel ball this might be more like college.

Once a pitcher throws a fastball with much higher velocity than most everyone else does… It usually ends up being a called strike, a foul ball or a swing and miss. This is true at every level. The guys who lead the league in missing bats are usually the highest velocity guys… At every level. Check out the strike out leaders at every level, these are the guys who are missing the most bats.

If the hitter has never seen 100 mph he has very little chance to hit 100 mph. Then when we throw movement into the equation it’s another thing all together. Each year we see the guys who get the most money in the draft… They are almost always the high velocity guys. If anyone can give me another example, I’m all ears. There is a reason for that. The fastball is the most important pitch in baseball.

One other thing that I disagree with is the notion that hitters are up there equally ready to hit any pitch at any time. (especially with no strikes on them) The hitter who is looking for a certain pitch and gets that pitch has the best chance to be successful. This is why technology has become such an important part of Major League baseball now days. They monitor and study pitchers and hitters know what pitchers are likely to throw in most situations. Whether someone wants to call this guessing or not doesn’t make any difference, but it is happening and hitters hit what they’re looking for better than the pitch they’re not looking for. If you’re looking for fastball and you get off speed, you will not hit off speed as well. If you’re looking for off speed and you get a real good fastball, you will not hit that fastball as well. Good hitters really do think, some call it guessing! Others call it playing the percentages.

Then sometimes the best pitchers are so good that hitters have a problem even when they get the expected change up from Santana or the fastball from Bobby Jenks.

FWIW We can call this my opinion, but it’s not really my opinion at all.

pgstaff

I think I agree with everything you just posted,but I think one thing needs to be added.If a pitcher can hit 98 on the gun but that is all he throws,he will give up hits and maybe alot of them.They must have movement and change speeds to be succesfull,that is what makes that 98 mph fastball so effective,imo.

Great hitters of their era could hit the great pitchers of their era. The key here is GREAT! Their are maybe 10 to 15 great hitters in any given era and maybe 5-10 great pitchers. When guys in the MLB can wait until 15' or less to decide to swing there is virtually no fastball they can't hit. However, they have to be looking for the fastest pitch in most circumstances and adjust to all others. I believe Hank said what he said because he didn't want the pitchers throwing him junk, so he planted a seed.

PG,
Larry Walker swore he didn't guess or study pitcher's tendencies. He just saw it and hit it. He did pretty well with that.

Only the great hitters can be ready to hit the 98 MPH fastball and still be able to adjust to the offspeed pitch.......

The others can hit the in-between speed stuff but struggle with fast speed and slow speed......

Aaron was saying he could do both......And, he could...So could the Babe, Mick and Ted.....When a pitcher can't throw it past you, that's saying alot....

And, they could do it against any pitchers.....Yesteryear or today.....I would never advise anyone to dismiss the swings of the old-timers....

I would advise to study the swings of the old-timers and learn alot....

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:

When a pitcher can't throw it past you, that's saying alot....

And, they could do it against any pitchers.....Yesteryear or today.....I would never advise anyone to dismiss the swings of the old-timers....

I would advise to study the swings of the old-timers and learn alot....

I agree that when a hitter knows the pitcher can't throw the ball by him it says a lot. Confidence, focus, sit on off speed, no need to look fastball because you have that timed already.

I have never dismissed anyone's swing, just stated it may need some tweaking. I've also said I would not teach certain styles to a hitter (Aarons being one), but I also said that I wouldn't change anyone's swing if it was successful at the time. I actually like everything about Aaron's swing except the big dive to the ball. I think there are very few people that could have ever made that style successful, but he was one of them. I also believe that is why he struggled so much at the end of his career as did Ruth. That big slide from back to front adds to timing problems and as their bat speed and reaction time slowed they began to struggle. IMO

I think that Aaron cuote is a contradiction. Why wait for a breaking pitch if nonbody could pass him with the fastball, and anyways, any pitcher had to throw it several times in each at bat? This is other strategy that belong to times where hard throwing pitchers were the less. Today, maybe you can guest a breaking pitch once in a while, but if you seat waiting for breaking pitch, to react to a fastball, believe me, you are a dead duck.

Every batter at every and any level should go up to the plate looking fastball, but be aware that anything other than fastball will require adjustment. There are no 'dead curve-ball hitters' only 'dead fastball hitters'.

The two words 'hitting' and 'consistently' should never be used in the same sentence when discussing baseball.

Success in three of ten attempts cannot reasonably be described with the word 'consistently'.

quote:

The two words 'hitting' and 'consistently' should never be used in the same sentence when discussing baseball.

Sure they should.......Only great hitters can consistently hit their average against 98 MPH fastballs in games....

Or, as PG stated it, against pitchers "with much higher velocity than most everyone else"......

BlueDOG

Two things here:

First

Don't ever assume you have ever done anything better or more often than anyone else ---that is pure arrogance on your part


Secondly


Initially you say that great hitters cannot hit the 98 MPH fastball and then you later, just above , post that consistently hit their average against 98 MPH fastball


Make up your mind !!!! Or do prognosticators always do this? You are a prognosticator are you not?

quote:

Initially you say that great hitters cannot hit the 98 MPH fastball......

TRhit, read slower please.....Before you post things like this, know for sure what I said, O.K?

Aaron's statement is not mystical or fascinating by any stroke of the imagination of an informed baseball person.

In Aaron's day curves were thrown for strikes. Usually a hitter prayed for a 'hanging curve ball' because it came in high and with less velocity than high heat.

Your fascination and amazement is the result of your lack of understanding of pitching methods of the era.

BD
\

I read very well thank you---

You intitially stated that great hitters do not consistently hit 98 MPH---now you say they do


You make your words work for your mind and your innuendo is wonderful


BD you will never change your spots-- You have yet to inform us who you teach your theories to or is is all just cyberspace drivel

Oh my!!!...I said that????

I would have to agree that a pitcher needs more than just high velocity, but if two pitchers had nothing except a straight fastball 100 mph will be harder to hit than 85 mph. 100 mph is simply harder to hit.

I can’t tell you how often we’ve heard dads claim their high school son can hit any fastball and then see what happens when they face mid 90s. What is the limit for these hitters who can hit any fastball? Is it 90 mph, 100, mph, 200 mph?

I also believe the greatest hitters might be great, but I really don’t think they are as great (statistically) against the greatest pitchers. I have to agree with Blue Dog here… Once velocity reaches the rare point, it becomes much harder to hit. Slow is tough as well, but it requires much more than just being slow in comparison to just being fast, to be successful. It requires more deception, movement, accuracy, etc.than is required by the power type pitchers.

In the end IMO if two fastballs had equal movement and location… that real fast fastballs (Upper 90s/100mph) will always be much harder to hit, than real slow fastballs (below 80 mph). I think this would hold true for every hitter who ever lived. Surely no one thinks differently, do they?

One more thing… There is a very good reason that hitters hit fastballs better than breaking balls. Again it is because hitters hit best what they see the most often. How often does a young hitter “practice” hitting “good” breaking balls? Do they see good breaking balls each day in BP? Are there many BP pitchers out there who throw a good sharp curveball during BP? If a BP pitcher is throwing 60 mph from 40 feet it is approximately the same as 90 mph for timing purposes. But the good breaking ball can only be experienced in games rather than batting practice for the most part. There has been some recent advancement in technology in this area, but most do not have this advantage. In fact, there is no replacement for actual game at bats against quality pitching. Without that, great pitchers would dominate even more than they do.

Racab said… “Today, maybe you can guess a breaking pitch once in a while, but if you set waiting for breaking pitch, to react to a fastball, believe me, you are a dead duck.”

I agree with this for the most part, but there are hitters who can still hit the good fastball while looking for the breaking pitch. They just aren’t likely to hit it, the good fastball, as well or as often as they would if they were looking for the fastball.

Often we hear hitters say they were looking for a certain pitch sometimes in a certain location (slider, fastball, etc) and they got it. This happens a lot after big home runs.

There are counts (situations) and that require more plate coverage and readiness for more than one pitch. These are usually not the best hitting counts regarding results. There may have been a few great hitters (Larry Walker was mentioned) who do not look for certain pitches, but those guys would be far outnumbered by those who are looking for a certain pitch. Plus I can’t believe there weren’t times when even Larry Walker wasn’t setting fastball… dead red!

With all this talk about hitting high velocity, it is understood that straight is a bad word for pitchers. And one good pitch is seldom enough unless you’re Mariano Rivera. But if fast is not better than slow in most cases, then everyone in baseball has spent way too much time trying to find it.

In the end, I’m not so sure studying the greatest hitters will always produce the answers we are looking for. There are just too many examples of natural ability out producing good sound mechanics at that level. Whether we talk about Hank Aaron, Ichiro or Vlad (who cares about location) or even Babe Ruth, their style or technique won’t necessarily work for those with lesser natural ability. Has anyone seen the old film clip where Babe Ruth actually took a couple steps in the box before hitting a home run? If you didn’t know better you’d think that was in a slow pitch softball game.

I have long maintained that the real good/great hitters follow no rules of thumb when it comes to hitting---what they do is natural and "just happens"---most of the great hitters actually do a lot of things we would term incorrect when hitting

Yogi Berra has the most World Series rings of any player who has stepped on a field.

What instructor teaches how to hit like Yogi Berra, especially hitting instructors for catchers?

"All I can tell them is pick a good one and sock it. I get back to the dugout and they ask me what it was I hit and I tell them I don't know except it looked good."
Babe Ruth

http://www.shep1.hittingillustrated.com/joefullbat.mpeg Thanks Shep!

Did you know Yogi Bear was named after Berra?

Berra wasn't amused by it, but it's true!

Is it possible that someone (even Babe Ruth) could have a lifetime Batting Average of .340 something with that swing in todays game.

Great clip, sure is fun to watch him attack a baseball. If anyone can find and post the clip of him walking up in the box and hitting a HR, it's a classic. Babe Ruth will always be Babe Ruth... The biggest legend of them all.

That's the guy Ruth learned from.....Shoeless Joe....

In 1921, Columbia University had Ruth undergo a series of tests to determine his athletic and psychological capability. Here are some of their findings, from an article by sportswriter Hugh Fullerton in Popular Science Monthly:

"The tests revealed the fact that Ruth is 90 per cent efficient compared with a human average of 60 per cent. That his eyes are about 12 per cent faster than those of the average human being. That his ears function at least 10 per cent faster than those of the ordinary man. That his nerves are steadier than those of 499 out of 500 persons. That in attention and quickness of perception he rated one and a half times above the human average. That in intelligence, as demonstrated by the quickness and accuracy of understanding, he is approximately 10 per cent above normal."

The biggest change in Ruth's approach would be the smaller bat he would have to swing with the current limits on bat size.(used a custom built Louisville Slugger model R-43. The bat was 36" 42 oz.)

Baseball Lesson From The Babe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEYSb66ndNY&NR=1


"If I'd tried for them dinky singles I could've batted around six hundred." - Babe Ruth

As Williams used to say, hitting a round ball with a round bat is the single hardest thing to do in sports.

Let's be realistic here. Most of the kids playing at the highest level aren't Aaron. That is the extremely rare exception. Most of the greats had to develop an edge, one wasn't given to them by God. Everything you read about Williams has him going on and on about studying pitchers, what they were to throw in certain situations. I don't think he looked for the breaking pitch in every situation then hit the fastball.

Tony Gwynn studied videotape to gain an edge. Scott Hatteberg (not an all-time great but...) was described accurately in "Moneyball" as being very selective and that being the only way he could be productive. Chipper loves the fastball, the faster the better.

What I'm saying is that Aaron and Ruth and, today, Vlad Guerrero can go up there without a plan or studying the pitcher or whatever and hit. They are the exception. And even with those guys, you want to tell me that if they've seen a pitcher against 50 different batters and notice the guy throws a fastball 90% of the time in a 2-0 or 3-1 count they weren't looking fastball?

To me, all things being equal such as mechanics and/or bat speed, what really separates the good hitter from the bad hitter is the ability to consistently hit his pitch(es) when he sees them. And then to me, what separates the good from the great (well most greats with exceptions like Aaron)is the ability to lay off pitches he can't handle well and then primarily swing at pitches he can handle.

As Dimitri Young told Delmon when asked how you hit a great forkball. He said, you don't, you lay off it. Not an all-time great but pretty good.

oh well, since the greats are so far beyond the kids out there today, why bother to study the secrets, habits or practices of the greats.


I guess we should just take our ball and stop playing.

Quincy,

I'm not sure if your latest post was directed at mine but let me be clear. I'm saying that based upon the quote attributed to Aaron, his perception of how to hit may apply to him but I simply don't think it can apply to everyone.

Should the greats be studied? You better believe it! And I'm saying that most of the all time greats were students of the game and not just freaks of nature. Aaron might have had the ability to look for the breaking stuff and hit the fastball when he sees it. However, greats such as Williams, Gwynn, Carew, etc. chose to rely upon their studies of pitchers as well as their own natural abilities.

Kids should learn from these all-time great examples rather than just go up to the plate hoping for the best.

Maybe Aaron's statement would have been clearer had he said that he went up thinking fastball but looking curve ball.

In all due respect, I wouldn't attempt to re-write Mr. Aaron's words...........

His words are very clear to me....And, it's a very profound statement...

It isn't profound at all , it is common sense.

Once a hitter can develop a timing mechanism to a really fast fastball, then the hitter can look offspead and explode on it. The longer a hitter can wait, even in the miliseconds, the easier it is to hit everything.

Some hitters claim to look for middle sliders and adjust all else. The logic is if they look middle, the inside pitch is 2-3 ball adjustments and the outside pitch the same. If they look slider, fastball is a little harder and change a little slower. It is also why some try to be gap-to-gap when they hit. If they miss, it's down the line.

The key to Aaron was his ability to TIME a fastball with so much movement in his swing. He is counter to so much teaching today. Dead hands, dead lower body, dead head, etc. (His head had linear movement towards the pitcher of over 20" from beginning to end of swing.)

Bonds proves most force is generated by rotational motion and not linear motion. He is one of the most efficient hitting machines of all time. Efficient with little wasted motion. Aaron rotated also but within a linear system. He had a lot of probably wasted motion, but wasted motion is also sometimes part of a timing mechanism. If you tried to adjust any hitter to be efficient, you will affect their timing and may get worse results.

look at Sheffield. talk about lots of motion. but he is clearly timing the pitcher with all the arm motion.

many youth hitting coaches have to learn when NOT to coach. if a hitter has lots of motion it may not all be bad.

The last two posts are two of the best ever, IMO.......

One Name, Vladimir Guerrero.

Talk about movement, and adjustment.
EH

Most MLB pitchers don't throw mid-high 90's, for those that do, most are unable to locate at such velocity and generally lack movement. Virtually every MLB hitter has the bat quickness/speed to do damage with a 98 mph heater if it's down broadway!

Guys that are low-mid 90's with location/movement ala Mariano are rare jewels! Guys that can locate mid-high 90's such as Joba Chamberlain (right now) are pretty much unhittable. On the other side of the coin, Kyle Farnsworth is a mid-high 90's guy unable to locate most times thus he gets hit like a pinata!

Bottom line, MLB hitters can handle any MLB fastball, it's the movement and location that they struggle with.

Kyle Farnsworth has touched triple digits… many times.
In 666 innings pitched in the major leagues he has given up 625 hits.

As a reliever for the last 7 years he has pitched 459 innings and given up 395 hits. He also has averaged a strike out an inning for his career.

He is a great example of a pitcher that is fairly straight and throws very hard, but the results don’t exactly show he is easy to hit. Less than a hit an inning is pretty hard to do in the major leagues. So is averaging a strike out an inning.

IMO he is an example both ways. It takes movement, command and more than one pitch to be among the most successful at that level. And it also shows that high 90s is not easy to hit even for major league hitters.

Hello PGStaff, I agree. Faster straight is harder to hit than slower straight. Faster straight is still harder to hit than slower crooked at times.

The MLB average, as you know, is a little over 1 hit per inning and is about .75 Ks per inning. If you look at the top pitchers in MLB this year, those two stats for Farnsworth are impressive.

I find hitting fastballs for a hitter is like hitting the inside pitch. They are not as good at either as they think they are.

quote:

Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Hello PGStaff, I agree. Faster straight is harder to hit than slower straight. Faster straight is still harder to hit than slower crooked at times.

The MLB average, as you know, is a little over 1 hit per inning and is about .75 Ks per inning. If you look at the top pitchers in MLB this year, those two stats for Farnsworth are impressive.

I find hitting fastballs for a hitter is like hitting the inside pitch. They are not as good at either as they think they are.

Farnsworth has a pretty good curve too, right?

He’s pretty much a two pitch guy.
1 – High velocity but fairly straight fastball with average to below average command
2 – Slider that is inconsistent with below average command

He relies on high velocity. Without that he is not in the big leagues. Having little else has kept him from being more successful. The biggest issue with high velocity guys is whether or not they get ahead in the count. Farnsworth’s biggest problem is going 2-0, 3-1 too often. When that happens to any pitcher there’s a good chance of giving up the long ball.

I haven’t seen him much this year, but it looked like his velocity was down a bit, more like 96 mph a lot rather than the 97-100+ he threw before. This is probably an attempt to improve movement and command. I have seen him throw some great hard sliders in the past but then he will hang one at times.

If he were to ever improve his command and get some more movement, bingo! You have one of the games top relievers. He has shown signs of that in the past, thus he has always been in demand. He might be one of the best examples of how important velocity, pretty much all by itself, can be.

When I hear things like so and so likes to hit fast pitching, the faster the better! I have to wonder… does this mean that hitter would be best if someone could throw 150 mph? I know that’s a stretch, but where is the point that the speed becomes too much to handle and get good results? To me it’s when speed reaches the rare area. In the major leagues, that is upper 90s to 100+. Next time you watch a game on TV, count the number of times 100+ is hit well by anyone.

Many bring up the example of the kid a few years back that became a first round pick after touching 100 mph in high school. They say he didn’t make it so that proves the point. What they don’t know is he ended up being a minor leaguer who threw 90 mph without any control. Pitchers who go 2-0, 3-1 a lot with a straight 90 mph fastball usually don’t end up being very successful in professional baseball or even college baseball.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by PGStaff:
He’s pretty much a two pitch guy.
1 – High velocity but fairly straight fastball with average to below average command
2 – Slider that is inconsistent with below average command

He relies on high velocity. Without that he is not in the big leagues. Having little else has kept him from being more successful. The biggest issue with high velocity guys is whether or not they get ahead in the count. Farnsworth’s biggest problem is going 2-0, 3-1 too often. When that happens to any pitcher there’s a good chance of giving up the long ball.

I haven’t seen him much this year, but it looked like his velocity was down a bit, more like 96 mph a lot rather than the 97-100+ he threw before. This is probably an attempt to improve movement and command. I have seen him throw some great hard sliders in the past but then he will hang one at times.

If he were to ever improve his command and get some more movement, bingo! You have one of the games top relievers. He has shown signs of that in the past, thus he has always been in demand. He might be one of the best examples of how important velocity, pretty much all by itself, can be.



Okay! I knew he had a big breaking pitch when he was with the Cubs, but he couldn't throw it for a strike very often. How is it that a guy can get to the pros and not have but two pitches??? How can he not have command of at least those two??? With that fastball, why has someone not tried to teach him a change-up? Is it his work ethic? Concentration level? Lack of good pitching Coaches? I would think if you pitched for a living you could get it down pretty well.

PG 150 mph might not be too much of a stretch. I understand Travis Haefner cranks up the tennis ball machine to 140 mph and is able to stroke ball after ball ...

I didn't know that. But machines are much more accurate than people. Still, that would be fun to watch.

I heard Derek Shelton speak about it, said most guys just used that speed to work on "tracking" , not even thinking about swinging, but Haefner would just go in and rip away. I agreee with you, it would be fun to just watch ! A machine certainly would provide the confidence to stand in, but it still is flat out crazy @ 140 mph. My guess is even a tennis ball leaves a prety good mark at that speed.

quote:

Bottom line, MLB hitters can handle any MLB fastball, it's the movement and location that they struggle with.

Not much movement on a 100 MPH fastball.....You can throw it down the middle and most MLB hitters will have a very low batting average against it......This, my friend, is a fact!

The great hitters will hit it more often....And, amateurs will freeze up on it......

This is why closers are the guys who throw real fast......They're not concerned with movement, my friend.....They simply throw it by hitters.......Sit down, next hitter please!

BLUE DOG

You are so wrong---watch the top closers---every pitch they throw has movement and location


Hace you ever played the game other than on the internet?

There seems to be a certain breed of fast-tracked arms. Those with good hard fastballs and sometimes a weak second pitch.

If you throw hard enough, you can get to MLB. Your role is probably short, set up or closer. Bluedog is correct, speed is hard to hit.

Another thing, Farnsworth's numbers are not as bad as some are implying. He prove's Bluedog's point, speed overcomes what all of us agree is straight and not so good control. In other words, if he's so bad, why is he there and not going back to the minors. The answer is just good plain ole speed.

By the way, the scout that drafted the 100 mph kid who threw 90 with no control in the minor leagues told me he had to get off steroids when he got to the minors and his velo left.

Most guys who throw a hundred as a closer do not field their position well.

A good hitter or smart hitter would bunt something too fast to hit with a swing.

Bad or weak hitters swing at the high cheese even with two strikes.

Great hitters are low ball hitters, great pitchers are low ball pitchers.

quote:

Originally posted by Quincy:
Most guys who throw a hundred as a closer do not field their position well.

A good hitter or smart hitter would bunt something too fast to hit with a swing.

Bad or weak hitters swing at the high cheese even with two strikes.

Great hitters are low ball hitters, great pitchers are low ball pitchers.

Maybe this pertains more to the pitching forum, but the discussion was started here.

I enjoy these kind of topics when they pop up. In baseball you can always find a way to somewhat prove your point, no matter what the subject is. Others can prove their point as well. No game has more history and statistics to utilize in a debate. While it’s never fun to argue about most things, it is fun to argue about baseball.

IMO, the high velocity pitchers don’t necessarily mean the best overall pitchers, but they’re just hard to hit. This could be determined by the number of hits they actually give up and by the number of hitters they strike out. Not that strike outs is a statistic that proves the most overall value, but what better stat proves “hard to hit”? No contact, is #1 on the hard to hit chart.

When Major League hitters or any hitter claims they like fastballs, the harder the better, I don’t think they mean 100+ mph. While they might like the challenge, IMO they would always choose something slower than 100 mph.

Here are some pitchers who have thrown 100+ mph

Pitcher – innings pitched, hits, Strike outs
Billy Wagner – IP(761) H(515) SO(1005)
Jonathan Broxton – IP(160) H(131) SO(202)
Joel Zumaya – IP(105) H(74) SO(116)
Armando Benitez – IP(773) H(541) SO(937)
Bobby Jenks – IP(165) H(136) SO(179)
Randy Johnson – IP(3856) H(3065) SO(4616)
Nolan Ryan – IP(5386) H(3923) SO(5714)

There are and have been several other 100 mph pitchers, can anyone make a case for any of them actually being easy to hit? According to the “Baseball Almanac” here are some of the other pitchers who have thrown 100 mph or better. With some, you would need to look at when they did that and how they did at that time, like Eric Gagne, Robb Nen, Rob Dibble, and Mark Wohlers.

Mark Wohlers
Robb Nen
Justin Verlander
AJ Burnett
Joba Chamberlain
Rob Dibble
Kyle Farnsworth
Eric Gagne
Jose Mesa
Guillermo Mota
Josh Beckett
Daniel Cabrera
Roger Clemens
Bartolo Colon
JR Richard
CC Sabathia
Ben Sheets
Bob Feller

Granted, most of the more successful guys on the list had/have more than the 100 mph fastball, but just having the 100 mph fastball can make any other pitch harder to hit. The question… Could they have been as good or better without this rare velocity?

I do believe that if 100 mph ever became the norm in baseball, hitters would do much better against it. The MLB average velocity has gone up slowly but steadily since the radar gun has been used. MLB hitters see 91-92 mph more than any other speed and that is why those way above it and sometimes those way below it are hard to hit. None of this takes anything away from all the other things that are so important in pitching. But if velocity is not an important issue and hitters love high velocity, then most everyone in baseball has been wrong all these years and they should quit looking for power pitchers. Then we can start seriously looking for all the pitchers who don’t throw very hard. Wait! That’s covers just about everybody, don’t it? And then what do scouts do with the high school kid throwing nothing except a mid 90s fastball?

PG

Can we take this one step further-- the pitcher with "extreme cheese" also needs at least another pitch to be successful and the "cheese" had better have movement---staying with 100 MPH one pitch dimension lets the hitter catch up to them, at least in my estimation--- the 95 to 100 MPH fastball is not easy to hit but if it is the only pitch he has it will be his downfall at times

Pitchers should be effective no matter what they throw.

The high schooler who throws mid 90's, but has success because kids swing at bad pitches, will have to expand their repetoire.

On the other hand, a high schooler who throws at the same speed who can locate his pitches will have success.

Scouts many times look at potential, not results.

TR,

I agree, but the high velocity still remains the #1 attribute. Most 100 mph guys will throw their slider in the low 90s. Guys who throw 90 or below obviously can’t do that. The only guy I can think of that has had tremendous success with “basically” one pitch is Mariano Rivera. The 100 mph would be easy to hit if it were in the same spot all the time, but it’s difficult to hit high velocity on the sweet spot on a regular basis. Though some are better at it than others. High velocity = Strike Outs. Obviously there’s more to pitching than that. If you throw it straight, it better be real hard.

Quincy,

Wild doesn’t work at any level, but you are right… the higher the level the less hitters get themselves out. The high schooler who can locate his pitches and throw mid 90s will not only have success on the mound, but he will be a millionaire.

Scouts "always" look for potential.

quote:

Originally posted by BlueDog:
........No doubt in my mind, Bonds has.....

Oh my goodness, has the threads from the original post have many tangents.

With that said, there are a two immediate points that I would like to make here that may complete several of these threads.

1. What did the greatest of great long ball hitters (Ruth, Mantle, Mays, Williams, J. Jackson, A-Rod, Aaron, Musial, Bonds, Robinson, Hornsby, Schmidt, others....save that thread for another day) have that was the only hitting attribute and ability common among them all?

2. One key attribute to missing bats with a traveling ball is location, location, location. Another key attribute is to reduce a hitter's reaction time. With my fleeting memory of a recent conversation between pitching coaches, ardent listeners, the press and myself at at Charleston WV ball park a couple of weeks ago, at what ball velocity will the hitters reaction time be eliminated? In other words, at what point would God be able to throw a fastball by TW?

.......
....... news at eleven

Regards
Bear

Other notes:
a) The science of scouts seeking potential is an Art. Percentage wise, (in the 30th per centile) many fail miserably at it.) Maybe Ms. Schott (RIP) was right after all (D.T.O.M ADL)

b) The percentage of little leaguers (i.e. 12U) playing baseball at 14 y/o is near miserable (i.e. <40%!) Where should that finger be pointed?

Re Farnsworth...believe you would have a tough time finding another notable reliever that had a worse HR/IP ratio. For a guy with his velocity he gets hit hard (including his outs).

Bear

quote:

Other notes:
a) The science of scouts seeking potential is an Art. Percentage wise, (in the 30th per centile) many fail miserably at it.) Maybe Ms. Schott (RIP) was right after all (D.T.O.M ADL)

Ms. Schott was dead wrong.

NYDad,

You are right about that.

But... In the “What have you done lately” department….

Farnsworth last 11 games
10.2 IP, 4 hits, 2 ERs, 3 BB, 15 SO, 1 HR

Other than one appearance where he gave up 2 hits, 1 BB, a HR and 2 ERs in .2 IP
In the other 10 appearances, he is…
10 IP, 2 hits, 0 ERs, 2 BB, 15 SO

It is real obvious with Farnsworth that control dictates his success. When he lacks command he gets behind in the count and either walks too many or gives up the long ball.

He is a great example of why some say the most important pitch in baseball is Strike One!

But he has helped the Yankees a lot in the last month as they’ve been winning.

Bottom line… The guy has a great arm and that’s the only reason he makes over 5 million a year in the Big Leagues.

PG, of late he's been good (Joba factor perhaps lol) but his career HR/IP is poor.

Joba should be a starter next year. Your right, Farnsworth has given up a lot of HRs over his career.

BTW, how did a subject titled "Studying Ruth, Mantle, Aaron and the others..." on the "Hitting" forum... turn into a discussion about Kyle Farnsworth?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Joba should be a starter next year. Your right, Farnsworth has given up a lot of HRs over his career.

BTW, how did a subject titled "Studying Ruth, Mantle, Aaron and the others..." on the "Hitting" forum... turn into a discussion about Kyle Farnsworth?

It's NYdad's fault! LOL

quote:

Joba should be a starter next year. Your right, Farnsworth has given up a lot of HRs over his career.

BTW, how did a subject titled "Studying Ruth, Mantle, Aaron and the others..." on the "Hitting" forum... turn into a discussion about Kyle Farnsworth?

Sure is tempting to groom Joba as Mariano's
replacement but he's got an arsenal of quality pitches to keep him out of a starter role.
It's a tough call when you consider how instrumental Mariano has been to the Yanks success over the years. Thats why Joe and Brian get paid the big bucks I guess

I brought Farnsworth up in an earlier post as an example of a hard and straight guy being hit.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Bear

quote:

Other notes:
a) Maybe Ms. Schott (RIP) was right after all (D.T.O.M ADL)

Ms. Schott was dead wrong.

Wrong? It sure looks like Ms. Schott, according to business of baseball, had other issues. But she loved her dog(s). That's something.

Is there something about Scouts, in general, that you are upset about. Sure, Baseball Scouts are, as a whole, one if not thee most underecognized groups in baseball. Right next to teachers. Have you thanked a scout (teacher) today?

There is one thing to re-consider, Scouts can voice a pretty good opinion about the best of the best eating joints in America. I think I am maybe 1,994 for 2,000 in local amateur scout's recommendations for lunch counters! (And sometimes that's not a good thing....from the best of milk shakes, to the best of shaved Hawaiian ice, to the best of meat loaf and mashed potatoes, to the best of biscuits and gravy....ask a scout where to eat and you will get an opinion

GWYNN:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FIH/is_4_73/ai_n18616625/pg_3

Good article, Tom...Thanks...