Stupid Coaches

I watched a nationally ranked 10U (10 yr olds) USSSA Majors team out of Atlanta play last week. Pitcher used the curve on just about every hitter he faced. The team's coach was bragging to me that he has 8 pitchers just like that one. He then went on to say he discourages his players from playing any other sports and that they can play tournament ball year 'round. My thoughts were; 10 year olds throwing the curve year 'round... I hope those kids are still around to play the game by the age of 14...

The question of arm damage not withstanding why teach a kid to throw a curveball at the shorter mound distance anyway? He is only going to have to relearn it all over again for 60 ft 6 inches

Banning curveballs would be ridiculous because then you'll have umpires having to make judgement calls on balls that move. I don't know if you'd necessarily want to put a number on how many curve balls a kid should throw but if they do have a curve in their bag of tricks, they should be able to throw it properly and throw it at appropriate times depending in the batter and the situation as opposed to a steady diet just because 10-12 yr old kids can't hit it. This is where they should be learning to pitch.

However pitchers at 10-12 yrs old who throw mostly curve balls are doing themselves no good down the road if they hope some day to develop into high school pitchers simply because by throwing so many curves, they don't develop their fastball. You can fool 10-12 yr olds all day with the curve ball or something they're throwing at that age resembles a curve ball because they don't know how to hit it. They'd get the same results learning a changeup but all kids like to throw curves.

When they get older, or start playing travel, legion or high school ball, that apprach will fail pitchers because hitters eventually learn to recognize the breaking ball and lay off the junk because often, it isn't a strike and at the same time, their fastball never improved because they never used it and developed it as much as they should so if they havent learned to locate it or failed to add some mph to it because they lived off curveballs all their life. As a result, they never learn how to pitch and they'll get hammered.

I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

ASMI researched youth pitchers throwing curves. They could not find a connection between properly thrown curves and arm injuries in youth pitchers. They found a connection between pitching too often and uyouth arm injuries. ASMI was founded by Dr James Andrews, the most prominent sports orthopedic surgeon in the world.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I would just like to thank the coaches out there who let their kids throw a ton of curveballs.

Dman Jr had a lot of problems with curveballs when he was 11. Always swung at them and sometimes even hit them.
He is now 14U and saw an average of 10 cb per game while playing around 80-90 games for the last 3 years. He can now judge them pretty well and punish them on occasion.

I am not sure if any of the pitchers who threw 90% curveballs are ever going to play in HS, but they really increased JR's chances.

Thanks coaches!

That is a beautiful comment! Mind if I use it...?

2 seasons ago we played a very highly USSSA nationally-ranked 11u team in which their goofy-Head-coach's own son threw 80+ pitches and we counted around 60 were curveballs... At this level, ANY curveball regardless of how actually good it is, is a GREAT curveball because our kids NEVER saw them... They went on to win a fairly close game, and I thought it was a great experience... After that we (coaches) started throwing good, tough-curves to our guys in BP so they could get used to seeing them... last season, we batted .386 as a team, because teams couldn't sneak "bad-curveballs" by our hitters anymore...

Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

I can assure you that my son who is starting his last year of D1 threw at least 90% CBs since 10yo. Never injured and never missed an inning of BB due to sore arm.
He was over used and when he was tied they told him to stay with the off speed stuff. They told him that because they knew it was less stressful than his FB. As a midget he pitched 4 times in 5 days and faced Leaside who were the top midget OBA team in Toronto that year. He just threw CB after CB and they were not as good as he normally threw them. He picked off 5 guys in that game and threw right into the 9th until he loaded the bases with lack of control. The coach took him out and the coach came over after the game and was laughing. He said I have coached you son since he was 9 and he never yelled at me before. He said he had them right where he wanted them. Bases loaded and 1 out.
If you ask my son what was stressful on his arm it was the FB.
People just hate being shown up by a guy throwing slow mo.

cchs07 maybe they know more than you do about CBs. It was actually Tom House that 1st mentioned that CBs were not harmful if thrown properly.

We had an Pediatric Orthopedic Surgeon on my son's 11u team this year and he has been interviewed locally and published some papers on sports related injuries.

I asked him about the debate on curve balls at a young age. I asked him to shoot straight and not give me the "company line". He sighted the study by Dr. Andrews and said that they followed several little league pitchers for an entire season and charted all of their competitive pitches. A competitive pitch was defined as anything with a batter in the box. BP, real game, etc.

He said the findings did not show the type of pitch made a difference. In fact, different mechanics did not seem to make a difference. The study sighted the number of pitches as the single greatest determining factor in injuries to young pitchers. After 650 competitive pitches the number of arm injuries sky rocketed. Another factor that had more significance than type of pitch was arm strength. Those pitchers with stronger arms who threw harder than the average pitcher saw more injuries.

He went on to admit that there was a "company line" that Doctors follow because that is the safe road and no one wants to be labeled a crack pot or rebel in the medical field for stating the opposite of everyone else. He said as more studies are done and more information shows that pitch selection has less of an affect than pitch counts more doctors will change their tune.

The final straw for me was when he said if his son had a decent curve ball he would let him throw it in moderation.

Just passing it on...

For what it is worth, my son does not throw anything but fastballs and change ups.

I really don't want to get into the cb vs. fb thing and I am sure that a properly thrown cb is better for an arm than an overthrown fastball. But I have never seen a properly thrown cb at the youth level. I have seen plenty of breaking balls but the kids throwing them either don't do it properly and end up with a "slurve" or slider or they over throw the heck out of it with a nasty snap on the end trying to get that K.

That is why I don't like them. It is much easier to throw a proper fastball or circle change than a proper cb and they are just as effective in geting outs. Not K's but outs. My son is going to wait until he stops growing and at that time, if he is still pitching, then great. Throw a cb.

I see. So because you don't know much about CBs you refrain from throwing one. The one you are talking about should not be thrown until around 16yo.

Bobblehead,
I am sure that your son threw them very well at a young age and continues to throw them very well indeed. The proof is obviously in his success.
What I am seeing is that young kids are being taught how to throw a c/b, but when it counts and they need a strike out or they are facing a really good hitter, they over throw the pitch or really try to snap it off and mechanics go to heck. That is what I see in every tournament that we play in. We also see kids that throw 90% curveballs and they rarely throw it the same way twice.

This is the dangerous time in my opinion. I would rather have my son over throw a f/b or c/u than c/b before he is fully grown. I am not trying to change your mind. I am just trying to explain my position. I am 100% sure that many people on this site will take your side. People with a lot more experience than me.

Back to the original poster about 12y/o pitchers throwing so many curveballs from 46`.Great point!
That is too short of a distance to get much break
from a properly thrown CB.Good location with your
FB and a CU mixed in seems safer than snapping off
50 CB`s a game in LL.IMHO.

quote:

Originally posted by Doughnutman:
Feel free bolts, it isn't copyrighted(yet).

My other pet peeve with youth cb's is that many coaches tell their kids not to swing at them.

When is a better time to swing at cb's and learn how to hit them than youth ball? When they miss they learn. Sometimes they even remember what you told them about hitting the cb. Usually after the at bat but it sinks in over time. It is much better to learn how to hit them when you are 10-14 than when you step on the HS field IMHO. Take advantage of those cb coaches for your kids benefit.

Let'em take their hacks!

Are you familar with the name Gary Ward? He was the head coach at Oklahoma State when it was called Hitters U. He told his hitters not to swing at curves unless there were two strikes. The best way to not get beat by a curve is don't swing at it until you have to. In youth ball most curves are in the dirt. The pitcher gets behind in the count and has to come "middle" with the fastball.

The only time I tell my players (16u) to hit curves is if they think the pitcher is prone to hang one and they're looking for it. There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

quote:

Originally posted by RJM:
There's nothing prettier than a hanging curve being knocked out of sight on the second pitch of the game by a lefty off a dumbass lefthanded pitcher who thinks he can fool him with a hook.

LOL

RJM,
I am sure that college kids at the D1 level:
1 Know how to hit a bad c/b
2 The pitchers really know how to throw them.
3 Learned by hitting a lot of them in practice and games.

Youth baseball is the best time to learn how to hit them. Who cares if they make an out? I would rather have them learn a new skill and they can get more selective later on. IMHO it will be a lot harder to make a HS team if you can't hit a cb in the zone and it is a lot harder to hit one when it is 0-2 and you have to protect the plate. Heck, it is harder to hit a fastball 0-2 for that matter.

Who cares if they make an out?

They do!

And therefore we coaches should too. Practice is the time to learn how to hit them. Games are for the players and we should do all we can to help them reach their goals.

Extreme,
They also get all excited and think they did something right when they hit a lazy fly ball and the outfielder turns it into a triple.
At the youth level I would rather have them learning. Kids learn all of the time. We teach during games when the lesson is fresh whenever possible. It seems to stick with them better. Like swinging at a curveball that started thigh high and ended up in the dirt. Great time for a little reminder.

If its high let it fly, if it's low let it go. Take your hacks. Try to go oppo with it. Take it up the middle. Take one for the team.

Simple stuff.

Its not really the problem of actually throwing the curve but the amount it is thrown. Throwing a curveball is like anything in life...Try and keep it in moderation.

Most coaches think just cuz in a pro or college game there are lots of curves thrown with success and that 12 year olds need to throw them all the time to be successful but 12 year olds aren't the same as pros. I made good batters look stupid in high school with the change it's a great pitch and totally under used at the youth level.