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Subjective Scoring of errors

S Skylark100+ posts
Being the official stat person on our team this year I found myself several times explaining to both coaches and parents about the facts associated with keeping and tracking plays and that it is a fact that judging hits and errors is quite subjective to the scorekeeper. Perhaps this language brings up a lot of debates and people questioning your ability to keep an accurate set of stats. It is thus a no-brainer then to have certain kids and parents complain or question you when their errors are stacking up above others on the team. Perhaps what they do not realize is that even with there being the obvious subjectivity, that same subjectivity is being applied generally equally across the board for all team members alike. Obviously, no one likes to have the most errors on the team but why not use this subjectivity to improve your game rather than just complain and chalk it up as someone who doesn't know?

This was the first year we have kept electronic stats for every play at every game (iscore) and as such I have seen more complaints about why there are so many errors by what appears to be good defensive players in general. So, I have to explain that my pad doesn't decide if they are errors but rather its me who has to decide at that moment how to score. There have been a few times upon further thought that I have reversed a few of them later on after further evaluation. But those instances are rare and in general it is rather easy for me using my subjectivity to quickly decide what is and is not an error. The problems I see is that often times you get parents and coaches comparing one players ability to anothers and using that standard for what is or is not an error. this has been problematic and has shown just how often parents and coaches can be wrong when it comes to their kids ability. Perhaps this is due in large part to never really knowing what their kids defensive stats were in the past accurately because of the lack of technology instantly at your fingertips. I often hear "thats an error, so and so would have made that play had he been there". So, there is a reason why you have someone who is knowledgeable about rules and not biased to keep stats. I don't know how many times I have had to tell people this year about how to accurately define an error so that the subjectivity of the call can clearly be defined and thus be accurate. For instance, it doesn't matter how fast Johnny can run to a batted ball or how fast he can throw the ball across the diamond. It all comes down to how they play the situation- do they make a play on it or do they get played? For instance- we have three 3rd basemen on our team. One of them isn't good at all at fielding and thus doesn't play a lot. The other two trade off quite a bit but it is readily apparent that one is better all around than the other. Its obvious that one can get to way more balls and make plays on them than the other. But that doesn't determine errors- hats not what were defining in how to calculate errors. So, besides the subjectivity of defining errors from one scorekeeper to another, you also have the differing levels of subjectivity that you assign from player to player from the batters or offensive angle. in a defensive players natural ability to make plays on you. Kinda like- "dont hit the ball to Franky, he has a gold glove and it will be harder to get a hit if you hit it his way".

I see this a lot- Ace fielder dives and makes a terrific snag on a very hard ball but then bobbles it as he gets up in plenty of time to make the play at first. Score it an error every time. Same play but slower athlete- dives on the ball but he was just a hair to slow and it glances sharply off the end of his mitt, batter runner reaches first safely- score it a base hit every time. That is the hardest part for people to understand. They do not realize that it doesn't matter how terrific you cn come up with the ball, if you then bobble it or make a bad throw= its your error and not scored a hit. They lso do not realize that it doesn't matter how slow a fielder may field and throw a ball, generally speaking, if they have no mechanical errors- field the ball and make the throw but it isnt in time (because of their slower ability versus lightning JacK) its not an error.

Because of this subjectivity, it can be clearly defined then that errors are more subject to a players own natural ability versus a standard of what is or isn't a error had Johny been in that position. Thus, it is true that a slower runner, slower fielder, slower thrower may indeed have the same amount of errors as a faster running, faster fielding, faster thrower as another team-mate. What isn't calculated is the obvious other fact that the slower athlete in this situation will give the opponents more hits on average than the faster athlete playing at his same position with the same fielding percentage. But we don't have a stat for that in baseball because that is too subjective!

Just a few thoughts here though and I hope others will take the time to understand that when you critique a scorekeeper, keep in mind that generally speaking, they are accurately equally subjective across the board. So, perhaps you should judge yourself against the others whom that scorekeeper is also running stats on and see how you compare. If you have a cruddy fielding percentage or an over abundance of errors, improve your game, not your distaste for the one keeping the stats and keeping score.
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mstcksmstcks100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:

I see this a lot- Ace fielder dives and makes a terrific snag on a very hard ball but then bobbles it as he gets up in plenty of time to make the play at first. Score it an error every time.


If F1 dives and then bobbles the ball, it shouldn't be judged as an error. From MLB RULE 10.12(a)(1)

For example, the official scorer shall charge an infielder with an error when a ground ball passes to either side of such infielder if, in the official scorer’s judgment, a fielder at that position making ordinary effort would have fielded such ground ball and retired a runner.

Because a dive is not seen as "ordinary effort," the scorekeeper can therefore not charge an error to F1 in that situation.
dad43dad431,000+ posts
Mstcks

I would tend to agree with you, was told you can not give an error on a player when he dives for a ball, however in this example F1 dives and makes the catch, the error occurred after the F1 made the catch.

I think of it terms of an outfielder that makes a diving catch and then gets up and makes a wild throw...it is an error.....


The one that always gets me is the belief that if a fielder does not touch a ball it can't be ruled an error

Situation---- two outs runner on third. High pop up the middle,of the infield....third base and first baseman converge on mound, pitcher also right there...they players play you got, I got it.....the ball lands On the dirt of the mound.....did not touch anyone but cold have been easily caught by any three players.....

Ruled an hit and a earned run....if I am scoring...that is an error...what would you score it?
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Skylark,

Let me give you some solace, and try to explain why you’re seeing “kickback” on fielding numbers. For more than 15 years I’ve tracked every fielding play for every team I’ve scored for and run stats on, so its not technology that’s making it possible. It’s always been possible, but not many have been willing to take the time necessary to get the numbers, and that’s where electronic scoring is making a difference.

I score HSB now, and what happens almost universally is, as parents and players advance to the V where I keep score, they are rather quickly overwhelmed by the number of metrics suddenly available. Usually, the last thing anyone gets involved with is defensive metrics. Not because they aren’t important or meaningful, but because they’re almost always more interested in hitting or pitching numbers, and when the suddenly see hundreds of more metrics available than the standard ones, they spend a lot of time looking at them, rather than defensive numbers.

If a player or parent is fortunate enough to play more than 2 years on the V, they will start to look at many of the metrics that they’ve found to be less “meaningful”, like defensive metrics. And when that happens, they’ll usually be much more knowledgeable about the game, and therefore not bother the SK a whole lot. So, I’m guessing that what’s gonna happen is as people get used to seeing things they’ve never seen before, you’ll be hearing less and less “complaining”.

Coaches however are a different matter. The reason they seem to have “difficulty” with scoring is mainly because they don’t understand the scoring rules, but a major component in any disagreement is their perspective. They aren’t watching the game to score it, and therefore don’t think the way a scorer things or watch what a scorer has to watch in order to do his/her job correctly. Add to that where they’re observing the game from.

I’ve found that the absolute worst place to try to score a game from is on a bucket in front of the dugout or in the coach’s box at 1st or 3rd. A game can be scored from anywhere there’s a good view, but with any view there will be some plays that are easier to judge than others. FI, one could sit behind the left field fence and score a game, but it’s a little difficult to tell what’s going on over at 1st on close plays. So the answer for most scorers is to station themselves as close to directly behind the plate as possible, and to get as close to that same vantage point for every game.

My “preferred” position is behind the plate and slightly to the 1st base side. I’ll score games from that vantage point, even of it means sitting on the opponent’s side of the field because it makes me as consistent as possible. Most scorers sit on the side of the field their team is on, so one game they have a great view of 1st base, and the next they have a great view of 3rd base. And from either side, its sometimes difficult to see that bad hop or how close a fielder got to a ball.

I don’t know what level you’re scoring, but with re-entry and speed-up rules, I’ve found it to be a mighty tall job to make sure I’ve gotten every defensive and offensive change. What’s your procedure to make sure you have them all?

mstcks mentioned something I didn’t see in your post. “Ordinary Effort”. That’s the only standard a scorer needs to be concerned with. All the foot speed and comparing players is immaterial. The judgment should always be on “Ordinary Effort”.

I appreciate your last paragraph, but I gotta tell ya, at the HS level a lot of the SK criticism is well deserved. At the kiddyball level(small field) and the tournament/travel/select level there’s usually a parent willing to take the book who has some scoring understanding, at the HS level a coach is often required to had the book to some non-starter, or try to keep it himself along with 100 other jobs. Wink
S Skylark100+ posts
Stats,
I am scoring at the hs level. I know the rules pretty well and pretty much everyone comes to me for a scoring or rule question. The ordinary effort is very easily interpreted from my view but it is because of that interpretation that others question my scoring. But, its because they do not understand how to score. like I mentioned before, like on the diving play, it doesnt matter if they make the greatest heroic dive to stop the ball. If they come up with it cleanly and then make a bad throw it is at that point that "ordinary effort" comes into play.

As far as keeping up with all the hs substitutions correctly, if I am always aware of every play and carefully watch it is very easy to track on iscore.
mstcksmstcks100+ posts
Skylark,

In my opinion, that is still a hit. Are you going to give an error to a guy who dives up the middle and snags the ball, only to bobble it on the throw? If he hadn't have dove, it would have been a hit. Therefore, whether he makes the play or not, it still required ordinary effort. You can't penalize a kid for trying to make a diving stop.

Also, the other would be scored as an error, most likely to whomever I judged as having the best play on the baseball in that situation.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
I am scoring at the hs level. I know the rules pretty well and pretty much everyone comes to me for a scoring or rule question. The ordinary effort is very easily interpreted from my view but it is because of that interpretation that others question my scoring. But, its because they do not understand how to score. like I mentioned before, like on the diving play, it doesnt matter if they make the greatest heroic dive to stop the ball. If they come up with it cleanly and then make a bad throw it is at that point that "ordinary effort" comes into play.


I never offer anything other than an educated guess on anything other than the scoring rules. I’ve found that the umpires do a pretty darn good job out there, so I leave the playing rules to them. If someone really wants to know something about a rule, I offer them a rule book and case book which I have with me at all times. Wink

As for the diving play, my guess is we’re pretty much in agreement, but there are a lot of times I wouldn’t score an error on that play unless the runner went to 2nd.

quote:
As far as keeping up with all the hs substitutions correctly, if I am always aware of every play and carefully watch it is very easy to track on iscore.


What I was talking about is when the coach puts in a sub, then moves him to a different position then moves him back. Our coach typically makes 10-15 substitutions every game, and almost every game I’m busy doing something else and miss something because our umpires very seldom announce fielding changes.

Another problem I have is when a pinch hitter comes up but goes into a different fielding position than the batter he replaced, or a fielding sub is made but the sub doesn’t hit in the same position as the player he replaced. “Normally” it isn’t a big deal, but in a blowout game where they try to get everyone in, becomes a nightmare pretty easily.

I know several people who use IScore and a good number using GameChanger, but I found both lacking in what was looking for. But, for the run of the mill scorer, both are quite good, although I prefer GameChanger to IScore. I guess I’m just a bit too long in the tooth to allow myself to be locked in to what someone else believes are the only important metrics, and that’s why I wrote my own program.

Maybe you can answer a question for me though. Let’s say there’s runners n 1st and 2nd and the batter hits what looks like a triple into the gap, and both runners score, and you mark it that way. Then you find out the fielder bobbled the ball and it should have been a double and only 1 RBI rather than a triple and 2. How do you go back and redo the entire at bat, not losing the count, making sure all defensive records are correct, and the pitching records are correct, and all the batting records are correct? I’ve got it down to a button to redo everything, other than just a few items, and was wondering how those things are handled in other software.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by mstcks:
Skylark,

In my opinion, that is still a hit. Are you going to give an error to a guy who dives up the middle and snags the ball, only to bobble it on the throw? If he hadn't have dove, it would have been a hit. Therefore, whether he makes the play or not, it still required ordinary effort. You can't penalize a kid for trying to make a diving stop.

Also, the other would be scored as an error, most likely to whomever I judged as having the best play on the baseball in that situation.


Those kinds of plays are very difficult to score without having the benefit of being there and seeing it happen. Let’s say it’s the top of the 2nd, the 1st batter is up, and he hits a grounder up the middle F6 dives for and grabs, then gets up and set to throw. To me and may others, that’s the fielding part of the play, and at the point he’s up as ready to throw, that part’s over, and we go to the throwing part of the play.

Remember, the fielding part of the play is over, and if the runner is still 20-30’ from the bag, where a routine throw by the average F6 would get the batter-runner, there’s absolutely no excuse for him not making a throw that puts out that batter-runner. So if he’s safe, either the throw stunk and there was an E, or the F3 blew the catch and there was an E. But that’s in the best scenario for everyone. No rushing, no pressure, and no excuses.

Now let’s do everything the same up to getting ready for the throw. The only thing is, now the batter-runner is only 3 steps from the bag and is a speed merchant, and its gonna take a much better than “average” throw, and its going to need to be perfect. If the throw is in the dirt or pulls F3 off the bag and the batter-runner’s safe, chances are I’m not going to pop anyone because of to 10.05(a) comment in OBR.

Rule 10.05(a) Comment: In applying Rule 10.05(a), the official scorer shall always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course for the official scorer to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.

But there are many other variations on the same scenario, and that’s why its so important for each play to be judged on its merits by someone there to see it. Heck, you and I may both be very competent SKs, but you’re sitting on the left side of the 3rd base dugout and I’m sitting behind the plate. There’s a strong possibility that we’re gonna score it differently. Wink
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
Skylark,

The way you are scoring is benefiting the pitching stats in a significant way.

You are shortchanging hitters by not giving them hits that they deserve.

And you are shortchanging defenders by giving them errors that they do not deserve.

The ERA's must look pretty good! Either way, the ERA's are lower than they ought to be.

A player diving for a ball has potentially stolen a
hit, if he can complete the play with his throw. If he can not complete the play, then it is what it should have been absent the outstanding effort by the fielder, a hit.

You can't say that the player exhibited extra ordinary effort by diving and then say that the rest of the play only requires ordinary effort. Once the player is on the ground, the play is no longer ordinary.

If a defender must take 3 or 4 steps to get to a ball and his glove touches the ball but it goes through the infield, that is a hit because it required extra ordinary effort to get to the ball.
Last edited by floridafan
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Floridafan,

Although I agree with you that there MIGHT be a problem with the way Skylark has described what he’s doing, he has to be allowed to do it the way he feels is correct. Because he’s the guy with the authority and the responsibility, just like the head coach has the authority and responsibility for his job. My only concern would be that he applied his standards consistently, regardless of which team or which player it was. As long as that’s happening, there’s no more anyone can ask.

quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:…
You can't say that the player exhibited extra ordinary effort by diving and then say that the rest of the play only requires ordinary effort. Once the player is on the ground, the play is no longer ordinary.

If a defender must take 3 or 4 steps to get to a ball and his glove touches the ball but it goes through the infield, that is a hit because it required extra ordinary effort to get to the ball.


I don’t mean to pick on you, but it seems obvious to me that you don’t understand the meaning and intent of “ordinary effort”.

OBR 2.00 ORDINARY EFFORT is the effort that a fielder of average skill at a position in that league or classification of leagues should exhibit on a play, with due consideration given to the condition of the field and weather conditions.

Rule 2.00 (Ordinary Effort) Comment: This standard, called for several times in the Official Scoring Rules (e.g., Rules 10.05(a)(3), 10.05(a)(4), 10.05(a)(6), 10.05(b)(3) (Base Hits); 10.08(b) (Sacrifices); 10.12(a)(1) Comment, 10.12(d)(2) (Errors); and 10.13(a), 10.13(b) (Wild Pitches and Passed Balls)) and in the Official Baseball Rules (e.g., Rule 2.00 (Infield Fly)), is an objective standard in regard to any particular fielder. In other words, even if a fielder makes his best effort, if that effort falls short of what an average fielder at that position in that league would have made in a situation, the official scorer should charge that fielder with an error.

As you can see, there’s nothing in there about diving or how far the player has to go for a ball. The measuring stick is purely the average player in that league or classification of leagues. For HS it breaks down like this. The standards aren’t the same for Fr ball as it is for V ball, and the same goes for JV ball. Also, if possible, the standard shouldn’t be the same for a game between 2 V giant schools as it would be for a game between 2 very small schools. IOW it’s a sliding scale, that slides all over the place. The reason it’s the same in all ML games is, all ML teams are theoretically made up of the very best players on earth, where in other venues like HS or college, there’s a wide range of skills represented on the field.

Speaking about HS, something to keep in mind is, the “average” player isn’t just the starting players. Its meant to be average of all the players who play that position, and believe me the average HS player at any given position isn’t threatening to sign a ML contract very soon. Its really difficult to be faithful to that standard too, because usually at the HS level, you get used to looking at your team’s players so often and what they can do, they become the average, and that defeats the whole purpose of the standard.

We’re a Ca big school, and of the 30 games a season we play, probably 25 or so are against similar teams. So I have to really be careful when we play a school in a lower division, so that I don’t hold their players to the same standards as I hold players in our division. In fact, I’m guessing that of the 20 or 30 times I’ve changes the way I’ve scored something over the last 15 years, its been because as I’ve looked back, I’ve realized I wasn’t using the correct standard at least 2/3rds of the time.

But again, as long as there’s an honest effort and that effort is consistent, its all ok.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
Skylark,

The way you are scoring is benefiting the pitching stats in a significant way.

You are shortchanging hitters by not giving them hits that they deserve.

And you are shortchanging defenders by giving them errors that they do not deserve.

The ERA's must look pretty good! Either way, the ERA's are lower than they ought to be.

A player diving for a ball has potentially stolen a
hit, if he can complete the play with his throw. If he can not complete the play, then it is what it should have been absent the outstanding effort by the fielder, a hit.

You can't say that the player exhibited extra ordinary effort by diving and then say that the rest of the play only requires ordinary effort. Once the player is on the ground, the play is no longer ordinary.

If a defender must take 3 or 4 steps to get to a ball and his glove touches the ball but it goes through the infield, that is a hit because it required extra ordinary effort to get to the ball.


There are several parts to a play. On ground balls the fielder has to both field the ball and throw the ball. They are separate plays and s such a defensive fielder can get more than one error on the play. For instance, if a fielder bobbles an ordinary ground ball and then in his haste rushes the throw and sails it over the first basemans head allowing the runner to get to second there are thus two errors- the first that allowed him to reach first and the second error for overthrowing the ball allowing that same runner to get to second. On hard hit balls it is no different other than the fact that if itis hardhit and he cant field it cleanly to make the play then it may be a hit. But, if he fields it cleanly, no matter how difficult it was,and then with plenty of time throws it over the head of the first baseman, it is then a throwing error.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
You are correct about a routine ball that is bobbled and rushing the throw and sailing it. But that is not all you are saying. You are saying that a player that dives for a ball, taking away a hit, and not completeing the play due to a rhrow that pulls the baseman off the bag has earned an error. I totally disagree. If the player dives for a ball he is stopping a ball that otherwise would have been a hit, and is potentially keeping a run from scoring from third, by keeping it in the infield. If he rushes the throw after looking the runner back and pulls the 1st baseman off the bag, it is still a hit. It was an amazing effort to keep the ball in the infield that outherwise would have been a hit.

A ball hit one step over and bobbled and a rushed throw into the dirt does result in multiple errors.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
If a 3rd baseman dives in hole and stops a ball, and the ball bounces out of his glove allowing the hitter to reach....are you going to call that an error?!

It blows my mind watching some players play up the middle, they will run to the ball, but if they can not reach it from their feet they will let it go to the outfield. You will never see them dirty, they do not want to make errors. So they are more concerned about theiir stats then winning. REcording stats should not encourage this behavior.
fanofgamefanofgame5,000+ posts
quote:
If a player has to dive for a ball it is a hit, unless the defenders throw allows the runner to reach 2B.


quote:
A player diving for a ball has potentially stolen a hit, if he can complete the play with his throw. If he can not complete the play, then it is what it should have been absent the outstanding effort by the fielder, a hit.


I agree 100%.You watch the MLB anytime a guy dives in the INF and cant make the play it is a hit.Anything hit hard up the middle that somebody has to dive for is a hit.

I agree FF,some guys would rather not have errors and won't get dirty.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
If a 3rd baseman dives in hole and stops a ball, and the ball bounces out of his glove allowing the hitter to reach....are you going to call that an error?!

It blows my mind watching some players play up the middle, they will run to the ball, but if they can not reach it from their feet they will let it go to the outfield. You will never see them dirty, they do not want to make errors. So they are more concerned about theiir stats then winning. REcording stats should not encourage this behavior.


Anytime a fielder dives for a ball knocking it down but unable after that to make the throw such as he knocked down but then had to get up and at that point too close to risk the throw, it is a hit. Diving for a ball will never e chalked as an error because that part of fielding is above and beyond "ordinary effort". But, if they are able to get to it, field it cleanly, and then, with plenty of time, make a bad throw allowing the batter to reach first base, it must be scored a throwing error. In this situation, a batter can only reach base on a hit or an error. We do not rule in situations like this that because the nature of the play, it is always a hit unless fielder makes accurate throw. The fielder must always be charged with an error if in the scorers judgment he can make the throw with ordinary effort. For instance-

Lets say a ball is hit sharply up the middle, the pitcher has a no-hitter going, its bottom of the 9th with two outs. The second baseman makes a terrific dive and it glances sharply off his mitt and two hops perfectly to the ss who then, with plenty of time, shuffles his feet and throws a lazy ball in the dirt which the first baseman cant dig allowing batter to reach first safely. The next batter strikes out swinging to end the game. Does the pitcher get awarded a "no-hitter"? Yes he should. The errant throw by the ss gets scored E6 because the average ss under ordinary effort in the league makes the play for the put out. It doesnt matter what heroics were made by any fielder to knock a ball down if it leads directly into any fielder, including himself, not to finish the play under ordinary effort to finish the play, you cant score it a hit. This is not the same thing as a fielder who after diving has to rush to his feet, rush the throw and it being too close at the bag.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
As asked by a dad to the scorekeeper- "Did you give my kid an error?" The reply- "no I only recorded the error he gave himself". I have found out the hard way that parents think you make their kids look bad. The truth is, they make themselves look bad but I get the blame for recording the unfortunate facts.


Getting asked those questions and being challenged used to bother me because I took it as an insult to my abilities, but it really takes a buttwipe idiot to get much more than a smile out of me now-a-days. I’ve come to understand that parents are only raising the question because that’s what parents do. They’re supposed to be advocates for their children. Of course over the years I’ve had a few parents tell me I should have popped their kid with a fielding error or not given him a hit on some weakly hit ball, but that’s always out of frustration, and besides, its not their job to know the scoring rules or watch everything the way a SK has to. It would be nice if everyone did, but they don’t.

What’s much more difficult to deal with for me, is trying to explain why our team will have a 25-4 record, beating some very good teams, but none of our players lead the league statistically in any category. Or, why after a game when our pitcher throws a perfect game, the team we beat has 4 players whose BAs and OBPs went up. Or, why the RHEL I have is so different from what the other team has. Those are much more difficult questions than why I didn’t give a kid a hit or why I charged another one with an error.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
An Infield Hit:

A hard ball hit “up the middle” (or in the gap between 3rd and short, in the gap between 1st and 2nd, or on the 3rd base line or the 1st base line…) is usually considered to be a base hit.

There is a range “up the middle” where the ball can be got to, but it would take extra effort to do so. This same hard hit ball is still [usually] considered a base hit- regardless of whether the fielder was able to get to it or not.

But, say the fielder makes a dive to get to that ball. There are many reasons why he might not make the out at first base (…he can’t get the ball out of his glove; or he stopped the ball, it was on the ground, and he wasn’t able to make the throw; perhaps he did make the throw and it one hopped to first base but not in time…)- The inability of the fielder to make the play, doesn’t change the fact that the hit ball would still be considered a base hit. In some instances, the fielder, through his extra effort is able to get the out at first. He would have “robbed” the hitter of a base hit.

When the actions of the fielder allow the runner to advance a single base hit to an extra base, this is the point when you would then consider applying an error to the play. In the scenario you sited, the 2nd baseman deflected the ball. Usually that ball would have traveled into the outfield where the centerfielder would have come up with it preventing the runner from advancing. Instead, it went to the shortstop. If it had gotten by the shortstop and the runner advanced, 2nd baseman would have earned and error. It would have been scored a single with a base on E4 (error on 2nd baseman).

In your case, it didn’t get by the shortstop. He was in a position to stop the runner from advancing (just like the centerfielder). He chose instead to throw the ball to first. It wasn’t a good throw, and they didn’t get the out. It’s still awarded as a Hit. The shortstop would only earn a throwing error if his throw had allowed the runner to advance to 2nd base.

The idea that a ball could be hit up the middle requiring a 2nd Baseman to dive to stop it, inadvertently deflecting it to the Short Stop who had all the time to set himself and make a routine throw to get the out is pure fantasy. Baseball does not move at that pace, unless the batter falls down or gives up and walks to 1st base.

You are robbing a hitter of a hit here! It does not matter what happened after the 2nd Baseman dove for the ball in an attempt to catch a ball. The hitter earned a hit, and should be credited for such.
Last edited by floridafan
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
Sorry floridafan,

I consider myself a competent scorer, and have been considered the same by many in this area, and I’d never say that I’d score something a certain way by where it was hit. The truth is, there’s nothing in the rulebook that says anything about “robbing” someone of a hit. That’s not how scoring is supposed to be done! Its about making or not making plays.

Now if you want to keep score that way, that’s your prerogative, but IMHO you’re wrong. The way a hitter “earns” a hit, is by not reaching on an error after putting a ball in play. If you start going by what’s “earned” and what isn’t, you better start counting swinging bunt hits, bloop hits, duck **** hits, and any other hit that wasn’t squared up on the bat as something other than hits.
S Skylark100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
An Infield Hit:

A hard ball hit “up the middle” (or in the gap between 3rd and short, in the gap between 1st and 2nd, or on the 3rd base line or the 1st base line…) is usually considered to be a base hit.

There is a range “up the middle” where the ball can be got to, but it would take extra effort to do so. This same hard hit ball is still [usually] considered a base hit- regardless of whether the fielder was able to get to it or not.

But, say the fielder makes a dive to get to that ball. There are many reasons why he might not make the out at first base (…he can’t get the ball out of his glove; or he stopped the ball, it was on the ground, and he wasn’t able to make the throw; perhaps he did make the throw and it one hopped to first base but not in time…)- The inability of the fielder to make the play, doesn’t change the fact that the hit ball would still be considered a base hit. In some instances, the fielder, through his extra effort is able to get the out at first. He would have “robbed” the hitter of a base hit.

When the actions of the fielder allow the runner to advance a single base hit to an extra base, this is the point when you would then consider applying an error to the play. In the scenario you sited, the 2nd baseman deflected the ball. Usually that ball would have traveled into the outfield where the centerfielder would have come up with it preventing the runner from advancing. Instead, it went to the shortstop. If it had gotten by the shortstop and the runner advanced, 2nd baseman would have earned and error. It would have been scored a single with a base on E4 (error on 2nd baseman).

In your case, it didn’t get by the shortstop. He was in a position to stop the runner from advancing (just like the centerfielder). He chose instead to throw the ball to first. It wasn’t a good throw, and they didn’t get the out. It’s still awarded as a Hit. The shortstop would only earn a throwing error if his throw had allowed the runner to advance to 2nd base.

The idea that a ball could be hit up the middle requiring a 2nd Baseman to dive to stop it, inadvertently deflecting it to the Short Stop who had all the time to set himself and make a routine throw to get the out is pure fantasy. Baseball does not move at that pace, unless the batter falls down or gives up and walks to 1st base.

You are robbing a hitter of a hit here! It does not matter what happened after the 2nd Baseman dove for the ball in an attempt to catch a ball. The hitter earned a hit, and should be credited for such.


I would tend to disagree. You can't automatically credit a hitter with a hit every time they hit the ball hard. In the scenario I cited it glaced off the diving second basemans mitt but then ended up easily in the ss mitt with plenty of time to make a throw and retire the batter runner with ordinary effort.

We have had several instances this year where a ball is hit sharply straight back up the middle. The pitcher reacts, and deflects the ball from his mitt to the ss or 2nd for an easy play at 1st. Thus the pitcher also gets an assist on the play.

Baseball rules do not allow for balls hit, whether they be hard or soft, whether a player dives or glances one off his mitt, if indeed the ball ends up in a defensive players hand n plenty of time to make and ordinary effort throw to retire the batter runner to be ruled as hits.

There are a myriad of ways the defense can rob hits. At no time is the defense penalized for maing extraordinary effort. But, if they do make extraordinary effort on one half of the play (such as a diving snag) and then make a bad throw they can be penalized with an error.

Baseball rules for "throwing" are still in effect whenever there is a time a fielder makes a throw. A fielder catching a glancing ball off the mitt of another fielder still plays out from the time he gets the ball to make an " ordinary effort" play if indeed he can field the ball under ordinary effort and make the throw under ordinary effort to retire the batter runner regardless of what heroics happened to that point of his touching the ball.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
I just now saw Asdrubal Cabrera rob Danny Worth on a hard grounder up the middle and onto the OF grass. He caught the ball, spun 360 degrees and threw to Santana. Unfortunately the ball short hopped Sanata, and he didn’t pick it. But, the ball beat the runner by at least 3 full steps, and there wasn’t even a hesitation. The E for Cabrera went up on the scoreboard before the pitcher touched the ball again.
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
This is another thread where we're all caught up in the hypothetical play, the one nobody saw save the original poster on the original play and possibly the one Stats just posted.

There are many great points made by the posters here, for me bottom line is you had to be there...

For the original play, I'd have had to seen it. My philosophy is it's a hit until the play becomes an ordinary effort play at the level of play being scored. If it becomes an ordinary effort play and turns into an error, I score an error.

I offer still another hypothetical play on this point. HS baseball, 350 lb hitter who plays nose guard on the football team. He hits a line drive, one hopper to third, who dives and snares the ball. Our batter isn't two steps out of the box when our third baseman stands up, takes three shuffle steps and airmails throw to first. Ball bounces off the fence up the line, right fielder runs it down and just misses throwing out our football player at first.

In this incredibly exagerated example, I'd score E-5 because the play 'became ordinary' for a HS player after the initial great stop was made.

In the more typical example, a diving stop requires some pretty good HS footwork to throw out a baserunner. Thus for me, most of the time the 'getting up, setting feet and making a good throw' is not ordinary effort at the HS level (assuming runner ends up at first).

Your average imported short stop playing in MLB is held to the higher standard of play expected of a MLB short stop as described in Stat's example.

Bottom line, you have to be there, watch the play and score it how you see it.

On these marginal plays at HS I apply a simple three step process before I score one of these difficult type plays.
How would I score it if:
1.) My kid hit it
2.) My kid was pitching
3.) My kid fielded it
This process removes the emotion out of the descion which sometimes pops in if one of my kids is involved in the play. Assuming instant replay isn't available, the next best tool is go with your gut.
Last edited by JMoff
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by dad43:
Ifminwas scoring I would rule this a hit....the original play was not ordinary....after that nothing matters......question if the batter was the star
Running back on the football team you would score it differently?


When you say “original play”, I assume you me the fielding of the ball.

If you can’t see that there are many parts to a play where an error could be made, I don’t know what to tell you. Al I can say is, you keep score your way and I’ll keep score mine.

In the end, I’ll repeat what I’ve said many times before and that JMoff has echoed. You have to see a play with your own eyes, in context, in order to make a valid judgment.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
You are missing the point! The ball was a hit! What happens after that is extraordinary effort.

Stats4Gnats and Skylark must have Pitchers for sons or just love pitching. You both are being completely biased against hitting and fielding.

A fielder who dives for a ball in order to field it has exhibited more than ordinary effort. If you do not understand that then you are biased against fielders.

A fielder who has to dive for a ball, and completes the play for an out has "robbed" a hit, whether that is specifically in the rules verbatim. It is the way the game is played.

All I can add is I am glad that over the past 18 years of my son playing baseball, neither of you have ever kept the book. If Skylark continues to keep the book the way he is, if I were the coach, I would find another scorekeeper by next season.
Last edited by floridafan
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
The 2nd baseman did not field it cleanly, it deflected to the short stop. You are robbing hits and awarding errors excessively.

Fielding a ball that changes direction in an instant is not ordinary either. It takes extra ordinary reaction time. I am surprised you do not understand that.

You have it down very well. It sounds like you take your job very seriously and have a great understanding of rules, etc.

Skylark, you just do not give credit to hitters for base hits when you should and you do not have a firm grasp of what ordinary effort is. Ordinary effort is a routine ground ball. Diving for a ball is no longer routine. Once the ball required a fielder to dive for it, the batter has earned a hit, unless extraordinary effort is made to get the runner out.

By your standard all the web gems we see on TV are ordinary effort. That is an incorrect assessment.

If the ball sails over the head of the first baseman after the runner reaches, but does not advance, is that an error too?!
Last edited by floridafan
Hawk19Hawk19100+ posts
quote:
It doesn't matter what extraordinary effort effort is put in to field a ball. If you come up with it in plenty of time to make an ordinary effort throw and you sail it over their head its an error every time.


My turn to chime in... Smile

I've seen plenty of plays where the 2B or 3B knocks down the ball and then picks it up with
plenty of time to throw out the runner. If the throw is 'bad', then I score that an 'error'. However, once the fielder has left his feet in order to stop the ball, I can't recall a play where he has time to recover and make a 'routine' throw. Very few runners are that slow...If the runner takes an extra base because of the throw, then I score it a 'hit' and an 'error'....

And then there are plays where you just have to be there to make the call....you can't say 'always' or 'never' in scoring hits and errors.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
floridafan,

Did you know that the “Wizard of Oz” and Omar made many errors on plays just like we’re discussing, and the reason was, they had such a terrific range, they could get to a lot more balls than “ordinary” shortstops, so they got to make a lot more throws.

The bottom line as has been repeated in this thread over and over is, if a player has enough time to make a routine throw and get the batter-runner, but fails to execute that throw, there’s an error. I don’t know how much more clear it could be than in this statement from the comment in rule 10.12(a)(1).

…If a throw is low, wide or high, or strikes the ground, and a runner reaches base who otherwise would have been put out by such throw, the official scorer shall charge the player making the throw with an error. …

There’s nothing in there about diving, robbing someone of a sure hit, or anything that takes place before a throw. Bad throw = error on thrower.
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Hawk19:
…However, once the fielder has left his feet in order to stop the ball, I can't recall a play where he has time to recover and make a 'routine' throw. Very few runners are that slow...If the runner takes an extra base because of the throw, then I score it a 'hit' and an 'error'....


That’s a great observation Hawk, but in all honesty, my guess is that there are more times when it happens that there’s plenty of time than you think, depending on the venue you’re talking about. On the little field I’d say you’re correct the vast majority of time because the distance from home to 1st is so short. Its also likely true in most big field venues up to about 14YO, because there just aren’t a lot of power arms in the field, and most balls aren’t hit with a lot of authority, and I’d say it was even true to a great degree in HS for the same reasons.

But when you start getting into play where the “boys” are much more developed and can hit the ball with more authority, and the fielders have arms that are much closer to a ML arm than a LL arm, you’ll see it a lot more. Since I score so many ML games, I see it frequently, but its much more of a rare event in HS and below.

quote:
And then there are plays where you just have to be there to make the call....you can't say 'always' or 'never' in scoring hits and errors.


That’s really it in a nutshell. Wink
S Skylark100+ posts
Ok, have two more situations that happened on our team this year-

A routine medium hit ground ball is hit to third with an average speed batter runner. Right at the last the ball takes a bad bounce coming up sharply and carreens slightly to the right of the fielders mitt glancing off of it and rolls off the arm to the ground. Third baseman recovers but at this time there is no play at first. I ruled it a hit, which of course it is because fielding the ball on the bad bounce requires more than ordinary effort.

Now, same thing, routine ball hit to third. Ball takes a bad bounce again (we have a bad lip on our field) and ball jumps over mitt and hits fielder in chest and falls to the ground. Third baseman recovers picks up the ball in plenty of time and makes a medium throw to get runner out by a whole step only first baseman reaches out too far pulling his foot off the bag completely and the runner is safe. On this play I ruled it an E3 even though yes the ball did take a bad hop, he recovered in time to make an easy routine throw that should be an ordinary effort throw and put-out at that point. At no point do we say that all balls that take a funny bounce are ruled as base hits unless there is a put-out thus eliminating any chance for errors.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
Diving for a ball is extraordinary effort and is not routine. If a ball is deflected by a player making extraordinary effort it does not become routine.

You are robbing players of hits, and charging too many errors. It is as simple as that.

I have watched my son play on LL teams, AAU Travel Teams, Connie Mack Teams, JUCO Teams, Colligiate Summer Ball Teams, 4 year College Teams and now a Professional Team. I have been very interested at all times regarding his BA and Fielding %, and Errors Charged. Never in all these 18 years have I encountered an official scorer that would charge an error (and take away a hit) if a fielder had to leave his feet to make a play, unless that hitter andvanced an extra base due to an errant throw.

This has been my experience, and I am happy to report it. I believe sincerely that both of you are not interpeting Ordinary Effort correctly, and are maligning the players you are scoring in the process.
Last edited by floridafan
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
You just robbed a hit from a baseball player. You are misinterpreting the rules and acting as though the ball was never hit to a location that only extraordinary effort could have caused the deflection.

I know this is hypothetical, but your insistence upon categorizing diving efforts as ordinary effort it the issue at hand. The batter should earn a hit if the fielder left his feet in attempt to make a play.
Last edited by floridafan
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Skylark:
A routine medium hit ground ball is hit to third with an average speed batter runner. Right at the last the ball takes a bad bounce coming up sharply and carreens slightly to the right of the fielders mitt glancing off of it and rolls off the arm to the ground. Third baseman recovers but at this time there is no play at first. I ruled it a hit, which of course it is because fielding the ball on the bad bounce requires more than ordinary effort.

Now, same thing, routine ball hit to third. Ball takes a bad bounce again (we have a bad lip on our field) and ball jumps over mitt and hits fielder in chest and falls to the ground. Third baseman recovers picks up the ball in plenty of time and makes a medium throw to get runner out by a whole step only first baseman reaches out too far pulling his foot off the bag completely and the runner is safe. On this play I ruled it an E3 even though yes the ball did take a bad hop, he recovered in time to make an easy routine throw that should be an ordinary effort throw and put-out at that point. At no point do we say that all balls that take a funny bounce are ruled as base hits unless there is a put-out thus eliminating any chance for errors.


Both sound right to me, and what you note about bad bounces is really important. There are some HS fields that are beautiful by any standard, but most leave something to be desired at best, and some are deplorable at worst. It takes a bit of savvy to learn the difference between a ball that doesn‘t get played because of a bad bounce, and one that doesn’t get played because the fielder did something that allowed the bounce to become bad.

There’s no substitute for experience. Wink
Stats4GnatsStats4Gnats10,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
Diving for a ball is extraordinary effort and is not routine. If a ball is deflected by a player making extraordinary effort it does not become routine.

You are robbing players of hits, and charging too many errors. It is as simple as that.

I have watched my son play on LL teams, AAU Travel Teams, Connie Mack Teams, JUCO Teams, Colligiate Summer Ball Teams, 4 year College Teams and now a Professional Team. I have been very interested at all times regarding his BA and Fielding %, and Errors Charged. Never in all these 18 years have I encountered an official scorer that would charge an error (and take away a hit) if a fielder had to leave his feet to make a play, unless that hitter andvanced an extra base due to an errant throw.

This has been my experience, and I am happy to report it. I believe sincerely that both of you are not interpeting Ordinary Effort correctly, and are maligning the players you are scoring in the process.


Well, either your memory’s failing you, or you’ve had a succession of weak SKs. I suspect it’s a matter of a failing memory.

As for the interpretation of ordinary effort, it was only just a few short years ago that the definition was put into OBR, and I still have the release from MLB someplace. Also, as far as I know, that definition isn’t in another rule set. I know it isn’t in the NCAA or NFHS rules, and the last time I looked at TSN baseball rules, it wasn’t in there either. I’ve also never seen it in any organization like LL Inc, BR, Ripkin, Dixie, or anyone else.

The reason I’m telling you that is, if someone learns to keep score using anything other than current OBR, they likely won’t have read that definition, and will very likely be misapply the ordinary effort standard. The main reason MLB put in the definition was because there were so many scorers misinterpreting what the rule intended, and if that can happen at the ML/MIL levels, I’d stake my life that there were more than a few SKs at lower levels making the same mistake.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
Yes it is obvious to me now that you and skylark are head and shoulders above all the scorekeepers we have come in contact with. As far as failing memory, I know when my son commits an error, or when he is charged one that I disagree with.

As far as ordinary effort, Skylark entered that term into the conversation.

But really....Stats4Gnats and Skylark, I DO appreciate the efforts both of you put in to assist teams in recording their book. Your service cannot be overstated, and I apologize for any inference that I made to the contrary. I continue to disagree with you, however I do not want to turn this into anything personal. I am happy you are here offering your opinions and posting.

Thank you!

Last edited by floridafan
JMoffJMoff1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
You are missing the point! The ball was a hit! What happens after that is extraordinary effort.


I love the fact that so many people are reading this thread and chiming in, rarely do you see a thread here with almost 40 replies.

Without trying to sound arrogant or parochial (sp?), I offer this:

If the ball is a hit, score it a hit. I wasn't there, so I don't know.

Yes, if the star running back is running a 2.9 down the line and the 3rd baseman rushes his throw without setting his feet because he has to (in my hypothetical example) after the dive, I look at the play differently than the nose tackle example. The running back is probably standing at second or third on the airmail and we have hit & error to explain that. Being fast helps and that isn't the scorekeepers fault.

I'm very guilty of creating hypothetical examples to prove a point while sitting in my den typing "I don't know 'cause I didn't see it". I'm sorry for that. I'm just trying to convey the terms "always" and "never" should be avoided and provide examples to prove this particular point.

The original play as described is VERY likely a hit in my book without a second thought. I just don't like the terms "always" and "never".

Just this second, there was a play in the Red Sox / Texas game. Kinsler dives, Ellsbury running, throw is wide and dropped, scored a hit. My gutt was hit, but I waited to see what the official scorekeeper scored to finish this post. If Gonzalez is running, it's an E because of the extra time Kinsler would have (IMHO).
mstcksmstcks100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
As far as ordinary effort, Skylark entered that term into the conversation.


That was my limited contribution to the thread actually! Big Grin This is definitely an interesting topic, and I'd have to say that it's definitely tricky to play keyboard cop over here when we haven't been there to see what's going on. I think the SK, whomever it is, must use his best judgment within the parameters of the rules to reach a decision...wait, I think I just described the judicial system!
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