Subjective Scoring of errors

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Originally posted by JMoff:
…I love the fact that so many people are reading this thread and chiming in, rarely do you see a thread here with almost 40 replies. …

Like you, I think its great! Mainly because scoring is my greatest passion in the game, but also because questions arising about scoring mainly come because of ignorance. Anything that provides education helps reduce that ignorance and make things better for everyone.

OK, I'm going to douse myself with gasoline and hand Stats4Gnats the match....

I don't any value in 'negative' stats (i.e. errors) and thus I don't see why a HS scorekeeper would want to 'penalize' the players in the interest of purity in scoring. If there is extraordinary effort involved in any part of the play then give the kid the benefit of the doubt and give him the hit.

Also, I asked our HC before the season started for his opinion and he told me if there was a question to 'score in favor of the players'.

However, that doesn't mean I score 'hits' on 'errors' but I never agonize over the subjective calls...they're hits.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
OK, I'm going to douse myself with gasoline and hand Stats4Gnats the match....

I don't any value in 'negative' stats (i.e. errors) and thus I don't see why a HS scorekeeper would want to 'penalize' the players in the interest of purity in scoring. If there is extraordinary effort involved in any part of the play then give the kid the benefit of the doubt and give him the hit.

Also, I asked our HC before the season started for his opinion and he told me if there was a question to 'score in favor of the players'.

However, that doesn't mean I score 'hits' on 'errors' but I never agonize over the subjective calls...they're hits.

Do whatever you think is best. In the end, the only thing separating scorers is the level of integrity they hold themselves to.

Go back and ask your HC which placers the scorer should favor. It sounds to me like he’s saying favor your players. Now me, I do my best not to favor anyone. What you’re saying is, if your team is hitting and there’s a play like that, the batter should be given a hit, but if its your team in the field, your players should be given the error to favor the pitcher. To me that’s cheating, and I won’t participate in it because I truly favor no one when it comes to how I score something. If a play is a hit for one team, its gonna be a hit for the other as well.

Unlike you, I “agonize” on many close plays because I want to be fair to all players so their numbers give the most valid representation of them possible. I’m not above asking other scorers, umpires, coaches, or fans what they saw either.

So like I said, you just go right on doing it however you want, but I’ll guarantee that if we both scored the same game, there’s be several differences, and mine would show purposeful favoritism.

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Unlike you, I “agonize” on many close plays because I want to be fair to all players so their numbers give the most valid representation of them possible. I’m not above asking other scorers, umpires, coaches, or fans what they saw either.

I would think that you have scored enough games that you don't need to 'agonize' over what is a hit or an error. If you're asking for help to determine what happened (i.e. was the throw in the dirt or was that a bad hop?) then fine. I can't believe that you 'score by committee'...

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Go back and ask your HC which placers the scorer should favor. It sounds to me like he’s saying favor your players.

Wrong. The point is to score on the side of hits and defense. Nobody wants to see a box score with 6-8 errors so score 'triple', not double and error on a poor relay...(At the small school level many players know the skills are substandard and will challenge outfielders and take an extra base that I know they wouldn't get at a higher level, but that doesn't make it an error...)

The best example I can think of was at state tournament when there was an 'official' scorekeeper and the hits and errors were posted on the scoreboard (a luxury in small school baseball). They hit was down the left field line. LF relayed to the SS who dropped the ball. Runner ended up on 2nd. They scored it a hit and an error. I would have just scored it a double since the runner was headed toward 2nd when the ball was dropped and may or may not have retreated if the SS hadn't dropped the ball. Subjective, difficult to really watch both at the same time and impossible to really know the runner's intention...But I don't disagree with the hit/error either.

Score as you wish. If we both scored a game the end result wouldn't be that much different. I'm not as generous as you think....

I don't know what is average for hs but here is a few of our fielding stats for our season. Some say I like to hand out errors but in truth I believe I am more than fair.

We played 73 games and tallied 187 errors. Our record was 48 wins versus 25 losses. We averaged 2.56 errors per game and our teams overall fielding % was .915

For third and middle infield, where most errors occur, our starting fielders averaged a .904% overall compared with second and third string who averaged a respectable .811 fielding % at those same three positions . In games we won we averaged right at 2 errors per game versus losses where we averaged 3.6 errors per game.

Compared with our offense, our team had a combined .318 batting average and held opponents to a .283 batting avg.

Overall, I think our teams fielding percentage reflects our record and shows where we could improve. We are a decent team but lack good pitching depth and a solid defense with depth at this point to make a run at state titles.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
I would think that you have scored enough games that you don't need to 'agonize' over what is a hit or an error. If you're asking for help to determine what happened (i.e. was the throw in the dirt or was that a bad hop?) then fine. I can't believe that you 'score by committee'...

Sometimes, in the heat of the game or a play, a snap decision isan’t necessarily the correct decision and those should be reconsidered. I don’t score by committee, but I also know I can’t see every aspect of every play the way I want, and have no problem asking for help unless I’m dead positive.

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Wrong. The point is to score on the side of hits and defense. Nobody wants to see a box score with 6-8 errors so score 'triple', not double and error on a poor relay...(At the small school level many players know the skills are substandard and will challenge outfielders and take an extra base that I know they wouldn't get at a higher level, but that doesn't make it an error...)

That’s not what you said, and besides, its impossible to favor both offense and defense at the same time. And who are these people who don’t’ want to see a box score with 6-8 errors in it? What does anyone care what’s in a box score?

In 180 games I’ve scored for the team I score for now, there’s been a total of 653 errors, for an average of 3.6 a game for both teams. That’s a far cry from your estimate of 6-8, and if anything may be a bit low because our teams are typically very strong defensively.

At the small school level, the ordinary effort standard would be lower, so the number of errors should be relatively the same as any other level.

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The best example I can think of was at state tournament when there was an 'official' scorekeeper and the hits and errors were posted on the scoreboard (a luxury in small school baseball). They hit was down the left field line. LF relayed to the SS who dropped the ball. Runner ended up on 2nd. They scored it a hit and an error. I would have just scored it a double since the runner was headed toward 2nd when the ball was dropped and may or may not have retreated if the SS hadn't dropped the ball. Subjective, difficult to really watch both at the same time and impossible to really know the runner's intention...But I don't disagree with the hit/error either.

What you’re not understanding is, the standard of ordinary is expected to fluctuate with the teams in competition. You said the game was a tournament, and that means the better players are there, so the standard could be a bit higher. Then again, the scorer may not have seen things the way you did, and thought the runner slowed or showed he wasn’t intending to go on. But the bottom line is, it was the scorer’s job to make the call, not yours.

I often disagree with what the official scorer decides, and I’ve discussed it with our HC. I told him I can make our book match the official book, or I can use my best judgment and mark it as I judge it. He told me to use my best judgment because so many times the OSK is a player or some parent with an agenda. If he’d have said make it agree with the OSK, I’d have done it, but not liked it a bit.

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Score as you wish. If we both scored a game the end result wouldn't be that much different. I'm not as generous as you think....

If you score the way you say you do, it would be different enough.

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Originally posted by Skylark:
I don't know what is average for hs but here is a few of our fielding stats for our season. Some say I like to hand out errors but in truth I believe I am more than fair. …

Its “discussions” like this that have led me to do things that remove the SK from the equation.

GO to http://www.infosports.com/scor...images/batting12.pdf and do a find on “objective”. Every one of those metrics is objective. The same find can be done here as well and will show the objective stats for pitchers. http://www.infosports.com/scor...ages/pitching12a.pdf

Using the 1st link, a find can be on “reached base av”. Using that as the standard eliminated any discrepancies between scorers too.

In the end, the only reason errors have such an impact, is because the “old time” standard metrics of ERA and BA carry so much weight. But as more and more statisticians provide more and more different, more meaningful metrics, the value of an error will be diminished, as it should be.

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What you’re not understanding is, the standard of ordinary is expected to fluctuate with the teams in competition.

I understand all of this at least as well as you do.

The title of this thread is 'Subjective scoring of errors'. 'Subjective' implies that there is more than one correct answer. You, as usual, believe that only you are correct..I'm done.

Saw it again in today’s Twins/Indians game. No outs, runner on 1st. Line drive that the 2nd baseman dives for and grabs. He has plenty of time to get the force at 2nd, but tries to flip it with the glove and misses the shortstop completely and everybody’s safe. E-4.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
I understand all of this at least as well as you do.

The title of this thread is 'Subjective scoring of errors'. 'Subjective' implies that there is more than one correct answer. You, as usual, believe that only you are correct..I'm done.

You may understand it, but if you score the way you say you do, you’re ignoring what you know. What you’re advocating is no different than cheating, and that’s why few people trust HS numbers.

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You may understand it, but if you score the way you say you do, you’re ignoring what you know. What you’re advocating is no different than cheating, and that’s why few people trust HS numbers.

In the past you've called me a 'liar', 'ignorant' and now a 'cheater' because I don't agree with you. It's a trifecta...

You Stats are the one Cheating! You are cheating hitters out of hits and fielders out of accurate representation of their skills!

I have yet to meet any high school player who does not need defensive help. An accurate representation of a typical high schooler's skills is noted by the stats over a season of play. You have accurate score keepers who are not biased and then you tend to have those who always favor their kids all the while having a personal vendetta against others never ruling in their favor on close plays. On close plays I will often ask others for their opinions even though I myself have usually already made up my scoring decision. Generally speaking, errors are bang bang- you know it when you see it. It is rare when it is hard to decide- maybe once or twice all season long. The rules governing what is a hit and what is an error is really quite cut and dried. You only run into problems when the score keeper and parents/coaches do not agree on the rules and from what I have noticed is that almost always, the parents and coaches who question the scoring, have never once read an official rule book of any sorts. A player who hits the ball in play either gets on with a hit or an error. You score it a hit if no fielder has an opportunity under ordinary effort to make a play on the ball at anytime before batter runner gets to first. A sharply hit ball that glances off a base and easily into a fielders range is scored no different than if it was hit off a diving fielders mitt and easily into the range of another fielder who at that point can make an ordinary effort to retire the batter runner.

Its all in correctly interpreting the rules and understanding them. Parents are almost always biased. They will never ever question you if their offensive stats are impressive. But if they have disappointing numbers they will always question. A true sign of bias.

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cheat

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
In the past you've called me a 'liar', 'ignorant' and now a 'cheater' because I don't agree with you. It's a trifecta...

I guess you may as well add fool to that list because I didn’t say you were a cheater. Read it again. I said to favor players is cheating and I wouldn’t do it. And I said what you’re advocating is no different than cheating. If you take that as me calling you a cheat and the shoe fits …

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Originally posted by floridafan:
You Stats are the one Cheating! You are cheating hitters out of hits and fielders out of accurate representation of their skills!

What is it you don’t understand? You can’t favor both the offense and the defense! When you favor one or the other, you have to be prejudiced against his opposite. If you favor your hitters, you’re screwing their pitchers. If you favor your pitchers, you’re screwing their hitters. You can’t favor anyone and comply with the rules, unless it says in the rules to do so.

I understand perfectly well, and stand by my assessment that you are robbing batters of hits and charging fielders with errors in excess.

I don't think you understand the difficulty of playing the game.

At the higher levels where scoring does matter; I appreciate a scorekeeper who has game playing experience and knowledge of the rule book.

If I had to make a choice between the two, however, I will go with the person who has played the game and understands, first hand, the skills involved in each position on offense and defense OVER a non-player who has digested the rule book and thinks he now knows!

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Originally posted by Prime9:
At the higher levels where scoring does matter; I appreciate a scorekeeper who has game playing experience and knowledge of the rule book.

Scoring matters at every level, and if there were a national database where everyone was required to submit the data, you can bet that there’d be fantasy leagues spring up like toadstools, because people would spend a lot more time analyzing their kid’s game than some ML game they have no connection to. But that being said, there is no such database and the games mean literally nothing, why do people get so bent out of shape about it?

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If I had to make a choice between the two, however, I will go with the person who has played the game and understands, first hand, the skills involved in each position on offense and defense OVER a non-player who has digested the rule book and thinks he now knows!

The thing is, no one know the background of the scorer, unless they take the time to ask, and even if they did, plays where some kind of decision about whether something was a hit or an error are so relatively few and far between in a game, the differences they make are really inconsequential. What difference does it make in the game if Joe Schmo has an ERA of 3.69 or 3.51, or Pete Whipit has a BA of .267 or .278? They’ve still got to play the game.

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Scoring matters at every level, and if there were a national database where everyone was required to submit the data, you can bet that there’d be fantasy leagues spring up like toadstools, because people would spend a lot more time analyzing their kid’s game than some ML game they have no connection to. But that being said, there is no such database and the games mean literally nothing, why do people get so bent out of shape about it?

I have no clue how or where you are going with this come back.

To clarify my remarks for you, as they pertain to the subject posted, and subsequent remarks; I'm with florida fan on this one. I bet he played the game before raising his son up in it. If extra ordinary effort was needed to get to the ball, i.e., I and everyone there is amazed he caught the ball, and then he whirls and makes a bad throw (even if it beats the runner), that's a BASE HiT..... no error. And I don't care what the stat geek rule book interpreter says.

At the level you are scoring (HS) a BA that turns heads should be above .400. If the players you are scoring can't break .350, what does that say to a recruiting coordinator? What does that say to the local newspaper when they evaluate their player of the year, or the All Area and All State Awards.

You are a scorekeeper, and you minimize the importance of what you do as though no one cares if you are off by .020 points. Why care if you are off by .080 points then?

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Originally posted by Prime9:
I have no clue how or where you are going with this come back.

To clarify my remarks for you, as they pertain to the subject posted, and subsequent remarks; I'm with florida fan on this one. I bet he played the game before raising his son up in it. If extra ordinary effort was needed to get to the ball, i.e., I and everyone there is amazed he caught the ball, and then he whirls and makes a bad throw (even if it beats the runner), that's a BASE HiT..... no error. And I don't care what the stat geek rule book interpreter says.

Well, as I’ve said many times now, you can think whatever you like, but it doesn’t make you correct. And if you were betting, what would you want to bet that I never played the game?

And you of course can think whatever you wish. This does not make you correct either.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
At the level you are scoring (HS) a BA that turns heads should be above .400. If the players you are scoring can't break .350, what does that say to a recruiting coordinator? What does that say to the local newspaper when they evaluate their player of the year, or the All Area and All State Awards.

What kind of Kool Aid are you drinking? Most people insist HS stats make no difference, but you’re saying recruiting coordinators are not only looking at them, but recruiting using them? This season, for the 1st time in 12 that I’ve scored, we had a regular hitter over .400. In fact we had 2. But the reason we didn’t have any in the past was, no one could do it honestly. These guys did.

2 years ago we had a kid who’s ERA was horrible, his W/L record was horrible, but he went early in round 3. So how much did me as an SK have to do with holding him back?

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You are a scorekeeper, and you minimize the importance of what you do as though no one cares if you are off by .020 points. Why care if you are off by .080 points then?

I don’t minimize it at all. I make sure I use other things that eliminate any scorer’s interpretations. But more than that, I understand how little it means to have errors scored as hits. Last season we had a total of 27 batters reach on errors. If I was wrong on every single one, our team’s BA would have gone up by only .37 points, and I’ll bet there weren’t more than 5 which were in doubt by anyone. You act as though I’m cheating every player out of his rightful due because I score too many errors. 27 in 29 games and over 700 ABs ain’t a lot of errors by any standard.

Since you do not believe the stats matter, why are you wasting your time keeping them.

The issues I have primarily deal with the players that you are scoring and how you are giving errors when hits should be awarded.

You and skylark opine that Dads, Players, and Coaches have complained about your scoring. You say this with pride as though you are above it all and know better than these other people how to score a game.

I disagree, and find that it is more likely that you are getting these players, dads and coaches upset for good reason. You seem to be unable to find any room for improvement in your approach, so I guess you will continue to make players that sacrifice their bodies diving after balls unhappy with you. And, you will take great pride in that.

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Originally posted by floridafan:
Since you do not believe the stats matter, why are you wasting your time keeping them.

You’ve never once seen anything I’ve written that says the stats don’t matter. If anything, I’ve always been a load voce for just the opposite. The difference is, I think they matter for helping manage and understand the game. You seem to think they matter for getting a scholarship or a contract.

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The issues I have primarily deal with the players that you are scoring and how you are giving errors when hits should be awarded.

Just because you don’t agree with how MOST experienced scorers judge certain plays, it doesn’t mean I or they are wrong. I posted the numbers for the team I scored for last season, let’s see yours. The way you talk(write), you have scored far fewer errors, relatively of course, than I have.

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You and skylark opine that Dads, Players, and Coaches have complained about your scoring. You say this with pride as though you are above it all and know better than these other people how to score a game.

I know when I say something like that, I say it using the rule book and the circumstance as a backing for what I’ve done. This is starting to look like another one of those “Coaches are never wrong” scenarios.

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I disagree, and find that it is more likely that you are getting these players, dads and coaches upset for good reason. You seem to be unable to find any room for improvement in your approach, so I guess you will continue to make players that sacrifice their bodies diving after balls unhappy with you. And, you will take great pride in that.

Personally, I don’t give much of a rat’s patoo if anyone gets upset with the way I score. As I’ve said, I use the rule book and the circumstances to support what I do, and I do it in good faith with as little favoritism as possible, and as consistently as possible, unlike you and the HC at your school who advocate favoritism of your own players.

And you act as though every coach, every parent, and every player gets upset with everything I do on every play. Look, I’ve been dealing with people like yourself for a very looooong time now, but not only am I still keeping score and running the numbers, I get asked to “defect” several times every season, because my reputation precedes me, and it has been earned.

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unlike you and the HC at your school who advocate favoritism of your own players.

You've got your fools mixed up. That was me. And what I said was....

"I don't [see] any value in 'negative' stats (i.e. errors) and thus I don't see why a HS scorekeeper would want to 'penalize' the players in the interest of purity in scoring.....Also, I asked our HC before the season started for his opinion and he told me if there was a question to 'score in favor of the players'."

NOT our players, THE players. So, as a general rule, I will score something a hit if, in my opinion, it could go either way. I don't think this hurts pitchers since it is only a hit or two for any one pitcher in a season and becomes not much more than a rounding error in calculating ERA and WHIP...

We are discussing 'subjective' scoring. I tend to lean towards a 'positive' stat when in doubt...it's my opinion. It does not make me a 'cheater', a 'fool' or a 'liar'. (Again, my opinion.) And if you say someone 'is cheating' and 'advocates cheating', then you are calling them a 'cheater'.

I've seen your posts here and other forums for several years now. You're a purist. I can respect that. You think coaches are biased towards certain players. I agree. You think parent scorekeepers are also biased. OK, I can see that too. I know you've seen my stats in maxpreps and feel that they are 'inflated beyond belief' You have a hard time believing that a team can hit .450 or an individual can hit .630 without some 'help' from the scorekeeper. So you assume I'm 'cheating'...

I assure you that it was just the nature of our team and small school baseball. What do you think your .400 hitters would hit if they were on our team? The holes in the infield are bigger. The alleys in the outfield are open. I don't score any ball hit at a fielder as a hit. I scored almost twice as many errors when we were batting (52) for our team as you did for your team and we still hit .450. Our leadoff hitter never struck out the entire season. I can't fake that...I'm confident that your numbers would have been similar since my 'biased' scoring was only on a hand full of plays where I wasn't sure how the runner advanced. (You have to agree that it is difficult to look everywhere at once.)

My only take on the OP is that I don't believe the original example of a fielder diving for a ball, then getting up and set with plenty of time to throw out the runner, and then airmails it, happens more than once or twice a season. If it did, I would score it an error.

And parents complain to me too. Most often about something that they classify as 'too hot to handle'. I would just say 'sorry, I understand, but he needs to field balls hit right at him' (for fielder's parents) and 'sorry, too bad he hit it right at the guy' (for hitter's parents).

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
You've got your fools mixed up. That was me. And what I said was....

"I don't [see] any value in 'negative' stats (i.e. errors) and thus I don't see why a HS scorekeeper would want to 'penalize' the players in the interest of purity in scoring.....Also, I asked our HC before the season started for his opinion and he told me if there was a question to 'score in favor of the players'."

I know exactly what you said, and I’ll ask again, what’s the alternative to favoring the players, yours or anyone else’s? No matter what the scorer does, “players” are always going to be “favored”! So no matter what was said, the only way to interpret it is, “favor our players”.

Now had you and he said, “Favor the hitters”, or “Favor the offense”, or “Favor the defense”, or “Favor the pitchers”, that would have been a different issue. But in order to favor the players, who would be disfavored? The umpires? The coaches? The scorer? The fans?

Maybe you just don’t get it, that when someone is purposely “favored”, unless its in conjunction with a rule, its amounts to cheating someone else.

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NOT our players, THE players. So, as a general rule, I will score something a hit if, in my opinion, it could go either way. I don't think this hurts pitchers since it is only a hit or two for any one pitcher in a season and becomes not much more than a rounding error in calculating ERA and WHIP...

Now you’re starting to speak in tongues. How it is that it doesn’t bother the pitchers because its so infrequent when you do it, but when I do it, it amounts to utter stupidity and a total misunderstanding of bot the spirit and the letter of the rules and the game? But at leat you seem to understand that favoring anyone means someone on the other team has to be penalized.

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We are discussing 'subjective' scoring. I tend to lean towards a 'positive' stat when in doubt...it's my opinion. It does not make me a 'cheater', a 'fool' or a 'liar'. (Again, my opinion.) And if you say someone 'is cheating' and 'advocates cheating', then you are calling them a 'cheater'.

JEEZ! The only way you can lean toward a positive stat in any situation is to lean toward a negative for the other player. That’s why I say, don’t lean to either side on purpose. No matter what happens, there’s going to be some degree of “favoritism” in scoring, and its ridiculous to assume anyone could do away with it completely. But unconscious or conscious favoritism isn’t really a problem in pro ball because the OSK is always the one the stats depend on. Its not like that in HS, even though the there’s an OSK at every game.

It’s the coach or a representative who posts the stats, be it a site like MaxPreps or a site like mine. OSK in HS don’t have the passwords to get into their opponent’s data. That’s why you batters could play ours, and you show them having 15 hits while I show them with only 10, even though I’m the OSK.

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I've seen your posts here and other forums for several years now. You're a purist. I can respect that. You think coaches are biased towards certain players. I agree. You think parent scorekeepers are also biased. OK, I can see that too. I know you've seen my stats in maxpreps and feel that they are 'inflated beyond belief' You have a hard time believing that a team can hit .450 or an individual can hit .630 without some 'help' from the scorekeeper. So you assume I'm 'cheating'...

I only ASSUME someone is “cheating” when I score the same game they do, and there are significant differences. As far as any team averaging .450 for a full HS season, unless they’re playing the absolutely worst competition possible, “hard time believing” is putting it mildly. Heck, I don’t know if its possible for an entire team to average .450 for BP, providing they have 9 defensive players on the field.

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I assure you that it was just the nature of our team and small school baseball. What do you think your .400 hitters would hit if they were on our team? The holes in the infield are bigger. The alleys in the outfield are open. I don't score any ball hit at a fielder as a hit. I scored almost twice as many errors when we were batting (52) for our team as you did for your team and we still hit .450. Our leadoff hitter never struck out the entire season. I can't fake that...I'm confident that your numbers would have been similar since my 'biased' scoring was only on a hand full of plays where I wasn't sure how the runner advanced. (You have to agree that it is difficult to look everywhere at once.)

Yes, it is difficult to look everywhere at once. In fact its downright impossible. If you’re correct, all the teams you play should have numbers that reflect what you’re saying. So how many teams do you play that have a TEAM AVERAGE of .450?


My only take on the OP is that I don't believe the original example of a fielder diving for a ball, then getting up and set with plenty of time to throw out the runner, and then airmails it, happens more than once or twice a season. If it did, I would score it an error.

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And parents complain to me too. Most often about something that they classify as 'too hot to handle'. I would just say 'sorry, I understand, but he needs to field balls hit right at him' (for fielder's parents) and 'sorry, too bad he hit it right at the guy' (for hitter's parents).

Its a parent’s job to be an advocate for their child, so I seldom get into it during a game. But when some questions me or why I scored something the way I did, you can just about bet there’ll be an explanation, compete with rule quotations in the newsletter for that game. And if they take the time to send me an e-mail or call me directly, they’ll get an explanation based on the rules and my perception of what took place. Many times the disagreement comes just because of where I sit as opposed to where they were sitting. I know that’s where most of the disagreements I have with the coach come from. The game looks very different from the 3rd base coach’s box with action taking place, than it does from where I sit. And that’s why if there is any question in my mind, I’ll search out the opposing scorer, or someone I know to be knowledgeable about the game.

The best way to do it, is to get someone as far removed from having skin in the game as possible, and that’s why I like the position I’m in now. My only link to the team, is my son’s a pitching coach for the JV. But I realize there aren’t a lot of schools who have the opportunity to get someone like me, so I just look at what people come up with, and deal with it as best I can.

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Maybe you just don’t get it, that when someone is purposely “favored”, unless its in conjunction with a rule, its amounts to cheating someone else.

OK, forget that...poorly worded. I reread the OP and it seems like Skylark is concerned that the players and parents on his team are complaining about the 'errors piling up' and then (IMO) relates something that rarely happens. So my assumption (probably wrong) is that he is actually being overly critical if he getting a lot of flak....

I simply offer that when I'm not sure if there was an error, if the play is really close but the throw is bad, I ignore it and score a hit. If the runner is several steps from the bag, or the 1B pulls his foot, or the runner stops before advancing, I can see that, it's an error...If I can't tell, I'm not going to go out of my way to try to score an error by checking with others the next day...Next batter is up...move on...

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Now you’re starting to speak in tongues. How it is that it doesn’t bother the pitchers because its so infrequent when you do it, but when I do it, it amounts to utter stupidity and a total misunderstanding of bot the spirit and the letter of the rules and the game? But at leat you seem to understand that favoring anyone means someone on the other team has to be penalized.

I never said that. You've got your fools mixed up again. I don't see this a you and Skylark on one side and FloridaFan and me on the other. I thought this was just a discussion of style and opinion. I agree that, as described, the dive, stand, set and throw is an error. I just don't think it happens very often.

I think you do a great job. However, even if the stats were important for getting to the next level, the differences were discussing are pretty meaningless.

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As far as any team averaging .450 for a full HS season, unless they’re playing the absolutely worst competition possible, “hard time believing” is putting it mildly. Heck, I don’t know if its possible for an entire team to average .450 for BP, providing they have 9 defensive players on the field.

You really need to see a good small school team play an average one.

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So how many teams do you play that have a TEAM AVERAGE of .450?

Most of the teams don't keep stats on Maxpreps and there is probably more disparity between teams than in any other division. However, the team we beat for the State championship in 2011 was 22-6. They were 0-4 against us. There team average was .443 They're in our league so they play basically the same schedule. Our five seniors left and they won State this year.


The team we beat in the semi-finals had a team BA of .392 They were ranked #1 for most of the year. They played and beat several larger schools in order to 'get ready' for State but it probably lowered their team BA.

The team on the other side of the bracket only hit .312 as a team but had a D1 commit who hit .639

I don't want to disparage small school baseball but you are correct that outside of the very top teams, there isn't a lot of good teams. And even those teams would be no match for an average large school team. But there are some very good individuals.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:
OK, forget that...poorly worded.

Done.

quote:

I reread the OP and it seems like Skylark is concerned that the players and parents on his team are complaining about the 'errors piling up' and then (IMO) relates something that rarely happens. So my assumption (probably wrong) is that he is actually being overly critical if he getting a lot of flak....

I’d have to pretty much agree with that assessment. But as I said very early on, much of the reason for what seems a sudden concern, is that most HS teams that keep stats, keep them to a much higher level than any level before, at least at the V level. To most “casual” onlookers like parents, that can and often is a rude awakening. And with electronic scoring gaining popularity, it’s a tidal wave of numbers and metrics that most won’t understand,

As always, most of the answer is education or at least familiarity, and a large part is the statistician not placing more value on certain metrics than others. Its his/her job to do nothing but present the numbers and let everyone make up their own minds about what is or isn’t important.

Its also important that the coaches make sure they let everyone know what metrics, if any, they’ll be using to make critical decisions through the year. That reduces the “But Jimmy has the best run per AB on the team” statements, even though Jimmy’s only batted 7 times an gotten hit 4 of them, and scored 3 times to show a run per AB of 1:1.

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I simply offer that when I'm not sure if there was an error, if the play is really close but the throw is bad, I ignore it and score a hit. If the runner is several steps from the bag, or the 1B pulls his foot, or the runner stops before advancing, I can see that, it's an error...If I can't tell, I'm not going to go out of my way to try to score an error by checking with others the next day...Next batter is up...move on...

There’s nothing at all wrong with that, but not because anyone thinks its ok. Its because that’s what the rules say. Here are some other instances of the rules giving the benefit to one team over another.

Rule 10.05(a) Comment: In applying Rule 10.05(a), the official scorer shall always give the batter the benefit of the doubt. A safe course for the official scorer to follow is to score a hit when exceptionally good fielding of a ball fails to result in a putout.

Rule 10.08(a) Comment: In determining whether the batter had been sacrificing his own chance of reaching first base for the purpose of advancing a runner, the official scorer shall give the batter the benefit of the doubt. The official scorer shall consider the totality of the circumstances of the at-bat,
including the inning, the number of outs and the score.

An earned run is a run for which a pitcher is held accountable. In determining earned runs, the official scorer shall reconstruct the inning without the errors (which exclude catcher’s interference) and passed balls, giving the benefit of the doubt always to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by runners had there been errorless play.

(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.

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I never said that. You've got your fools mixed up again. I don't see this a you and Skylark on one side and FloridaFan and me on the other. I thought this was just a discussion of style and opinion. I agree that, as described, the dive, stand, set and throw is an error. I just don't think it happens very often.

I was characterizing the way some have portrayed me, not saying you said something specific.,

It is SUPPOSED to be a discussion.

If you agree with what Sky and I were saying, why not just say you don’t think it happens very often, and be done with it. As for how often that particular situation arises, I don’t know either because I don’t track it. But, I suspect it happens at least a few times every game on average.

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I think you do a great job. However, even if the stats were important for getting to the next level, the differences were discussing are pretty meaningless.

Yes they are, and that’s precisely why I don’t just generate the standard stats and then be done with it. I very often try to show people that they’re making much ado about nothing, but doing stats for pitchers like “Errors Made Behind”, for hitters like “Reached on Error”, things for both like “Reached Base Average”, and “Objective Stats” for both hitters and pitchers, as well as many other things that show anyone who’s interested that there are a lot of ways to look at the numbers.

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You really need to see a good small school team play an average one.

Perhaps you think total destruction only happens when a good small school plays a bad small school, but I assure you it happens at every level. Here are the scores of our team playing a league rival, before the moved them to another league.

10-0
6-0
6-3
17-1
15-0
15-0
10-0
14-4
12-0
10-0
16-0
25-1

Since they’ve been gone, they’re 1-14 and 0-15 in their new league. In short, they just aren’t a very good baseball school, and they have to play each league opponent 3 times each season. When my son played, they had a school in their league that won 1 game total, from everyone, in 4 years and they were in the largest school division as well.

My point is, there are some programs out there that just plain aren’t competitive, but that’s the way it goes. Its not that everyone wouldn’t like to see every team and every league be as competitive as possible, but most of the time logistics prevent it. What’s more important? Every game being equally matched and thus super competitive, or spending and additional $10K on travel that the school likely doesn’t have?

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Most of the teams don't keep stats on Maxpreps and there is probably more disparity between teams than in any other division. However, the team we beat for the State championship in 2011 was 22-6. They were 0-4 against us. There team average was .443 They're in our league so they play basically the same schedule. Our five seniors left and they won State this year.

The team we beat in the semi-finals had a team BA of .392 They were ranked #1 for most of the year. They played and beat several larger schools in order to 'get ready' for State but it probably lowered their team BA.

The team on the other side of the bracket only hit .312 as a team but had a D1 commit who hit .639[QUOTE]

Well, I never said it wasn’t possible, but I still feel its extremely unlikely.

[QUOTE]I don't want to disparage small school baseball but you are correct that outside of the very top teams, there isn't a lot of good teams. And even those teams would be no match for an average large school team. But there are some very good individuals.

As I noted earlier, the problem is one of logistics and that means $$$$$. Some years back I had the occasion to go to Co for a big tournament that had to be played at several of the HSs. I thought we had travel issues here, but there’s made ours look miniscule. They only had something like 15 schools of any size within 100 miles! So what they had to do was have schools play each other, no matter what the size.

Sometimes expediency takes precedence. Those kinds of problems don’t happen very often in places like NYC, Miami, Tucson, Dallas, or LA, but even here in Sacramento, we have two teams in our league that are 40Mi+ one way from our school. But that’s only 6 games. Think about it from their view? Each of them has 12 league games that have that 40+! SO all anyone can do is to hope the coaches and the schedulers manage to at least make things competitive for most of the games.

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Originally posted by floridafan:

Stats4Gnats and Skylark must have Pitchers for sons or just love pitching.

Skylark's son is a pitcher, curious to see how many runs vs unearned he must have. Knowing from experience what a harda$$ he is, I can just see him arguing with parents over errors.

IMO this is a waste of bandwidth for something that really doesn't mean much for HS players.

What position players have the most errrors?

JMO

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Originally posted by TPM:
…IMO this is a waste of bandwidth for something that really doesn't mean much for HS players.

I almost 20 years of scoring college and below, I’ve never run across even one player who’d do more than ask/beg/wish that their argument or discussion would change anything. But the parents? That’s a totally different matter. I’ve seen them act in every manner of ill mannered action you could imagine. SO while it may or may not mean much of anything meaningful, it sure means something substantial to a lot of parents!

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What position players have the most errrors?

For our team defensively since 2007, F6 as a position has the most errors with 67 with the closest F5 at 53, but F5 has a lower FPct, .875 to F6 at .896. I suspect that will be true across the bard since the chances F5 gets are generally more difficult.

This game isn't about the parents.....or the guys who keep the stats either.

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Originally posted by TPM:
This game isn't about the parents.....or the guys who keep the stats either.

You nailed it!

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Originally posted by TPM:
This game isn't about the parents.....or the guys who keep the stats either.

Actually, “THE GAME” is about everyone who has any link to it. Where would HS ball be if parents refused any participation what-so-ever? Like it or not, they have a very big stake in the game because they literally have skin in it.

And it wouldn’t matter one whit if every HS team got rid of every scorer/statistician there was, it would still be done! The difference would be, there would be 5 or 10 parents doing it, mostly wrong and differently, and the coaches would have to do it themselves because like it or not, stats have a huge impact on what they do.

quote:

Originally posted by TPM:

quote:

Originally posted by floridafan:

Stats4Gnats and Skylark must have Pitchers for sons or just love pitching.

Skylark's son is a pitcher, curious to see how many runs vs unearned he must have. Knowing from experience what a harda$$ he is, I can just see him arguing with parents over errors.

IMO this is a waste of bandwidth for something that really doesn't mean much for HS players.

What position players have the most errrors?

JMO

Stalking me again I see...

Yes my son is a pitcher, but what does that have anything to do with the topic?
Typically 3rd base has the lowest fielding% followed by ss. Most errors on any team at any level come from those two positions.

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There are several parts to a play. On ground balls the fielder has to both field the ball and throw the ball. They are separate plays and s such a defensive fielder can get more than one error on the play. For instance, if a fielder bobbles an ordinary ground ball and then in his haste rushes the throw and sails it over the first basemans head allowing the runner to get to second there are thus two errors- the first that allowed him to reach first and the second error for overthrowing the ball allowing that same runner to get to second. [/QUOTE]

I'm confused by this statement. I don't think I've ever seen two errors charged to a fielder for overthrowing first and the runner advancing to 2nd base. The runner reached base on the error and advanced to second on the error. It was all because of one throw by the fielder. Hence one error with multiple consequences. Is this an incorrect interpretation? Thanks.

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Originally posted by Codes:
I'm confused by this statement. I don't think I've ever seen two errors charged to a fielder for overthrowing first and the runner advancing to 2nd base. The runner reached base on the error and advanced to second on the error. It was all because of one throw by the fielder. Hence one error with multiple consequences. Is this an incorrect interpretation? Thanks.

A lot would depend on the timing of the play, but there have been several times over the years where I’ve had to ding a player 2 errors on a play such as described. The 1st error can be on a mechanical misplay fielding the ball. Then the player makes a throw that sails by the reciving fielder and allows the runner to advance another base.

A good example would be in the SF/StL game last night. Sandoval got a hard shot right at him at 3rd that he blocked, but when he went to pick up the ball he muffed it. That’s a fielding error because of a mechanical misplay. Had he thrown the ball and the batter/runner went to 2nd because of it, it would have been a 2nd error on the same play.

Thanks for the response.

Yes. I can now see how the timing of the play would be an issue.

Interestingly, if Sandoval had not muffed the ball, but fielded it cleanly and overthrew the first baseman, there would be a runner at 2nd base as well. Same result as the play you described, but in this case, only 1 error would be charged.

Just out of curiosity, I found out on the internet that the record for most errors in one play in MLB history is Mike Grady who played for the 1895 NY Giants who made four errors on a play similar to what you just described. Ouch! Imagine as a scorekeeper dealing with a parent of a kid that did what he did.